Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit www.planescape.com to purchase and check for details. Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition Official Soundtrack is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Summoned monsters seem useless

Hello!

First: I haven't played all of the game so please don't spoil anything. I'm in the beginning of chapter 5.

When I fight powerful monsters that are immune to normal weapons, I figure hey let's summon a powerful monster to combat that. Like a djinni or hakeashar.

But nooooooo they can't do squat. Especially disappointing was the hakeashar. I relied on it to help me against liches but it just can't do anything.

Weapon ineffective.

*sob*

Am I missing something?
«13

Comments

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,384
    The hakeashar is not supposed to be good at melee. Its advantage is that its immune to magic, so is a good choice against a spell-caster like a lich. Even though it can't directly affect the lich it can distract it while your characters attack.
    JuliusBorisovThacoBellOrlonKronsteen
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    Cannon fodder I can understand, although that's not very cool.

    I thought the hakeashar was supposed to be good at disarming spellcasters at melee range, by means of it its melee attack? What good is it if not that? And about its magic immunity I very much doubt that... it always dies within a few seconds of lich spellcasting. It just dies like *poof*. Does not seem very immune to anything.

    :(
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    SomeSort said:

    Most summons are junk who don't really do anything other than distract your enemies for a round or two. It's especially bad later on when most mages have a copy or two of Death Spell handy, which instantly kills all summoned creatures with no save, (not Gated creatures like Demons and Planetars, though). This means if you even want to use them as a distraction, you have to cast a few low-level summons first to soak up all the Death Spells before sending in your *real* summons.

    There are a couple of exceptions that are pretty solid, though.

    Familiars are often just used as free HP, but they can actually add a lot of utility, depending on how much micromanagement you want to do. The Neutral Evil Dust Mephit casts a couple useful debuffs that'll make life easier in BG1 and early SoA. The Lawful Evil Imp has a Polymorph Self spell that can cheese some encounters, (go go magic resistant jelly imp!). Chaotic Good Faerie Dragon gives a free Invisibility 10' radius that's basically like an extra level 3 spell slot for your mage. Let him out of your backpack before resting, cast it, put him back in your backpack, and rest in safety. The neutral familiars make good scouts at lower levels, and the Ferret and Cat can accomplish some major cheese with their pick pocketing, (lets you carry Ankheg Shells without incurring any weight penalties, lets you smuggle certain items out of certain areas without the game seeing them).

    (If you're really into micromanagement, some of the familiars-- Rabbit, Dust Mephit, etc-- have increased movement speed relative to the party, making them phenomenal kiters in early BG1. Have your familiar find an enemy and draw aggro, then run it in circles while your ranged attackers finish the enemy off.)

    A totemic druid's spirit animals are fantastic, especially once they get immunity to non-magical weapons. Totemic Druids are strict upgrades over normal druids, and on par with Avengers for the best druid kit.

    Spider Spawn are pretty uber at low-to-mid levels, especially when supported with lots of castings of Web. They trail off later in the game, but I like to grab the spell with my Sorcerer, anyway, because they make a solid choice for soaking up Death Spells.

    If you're talking about total power over the entire life of the game, Animate Dead is probably *the* #1 summon. There are a couple better ones, but they're much higher-level, so the wait is longer and the opportunity cost is higher. Animate Dead lasts for 8 hours, which is long enough to clear an entire map, and they upgrade as you level, capping out as 95% magic resistant skeleton warriors with magical weapons at caster level 15. They're amazing, amazing, amazing troops.

    Mordenkainan's Sword is immune to pretty much all forms of damage except for purely magical damage, (think: Magic Missile and ADHW). As a result, they're superlative tanks, literally unkillable by 95% of the enemies in the game, especially if you use lower-level summons to soak up all of the Death Spells first. Shorter duration so they're more "encounter-specific" and less "map-specific" like an Animate Dead would be.

    A Druid's Fire Elementals are offensive beasts. Long duration, strong offensive power, a druid will devote most of his or her level 6 spell spots to this beauty, and a handful of them can carry the party most of the way through ToB before trailing off.

    Planetars / Devas / Elemental Princes are total monsters. Especially Planetars. Essentially a seventh party member.

    That's a load of info. Thank you!

    But none of them can touch monsters that are immune to magical weapons up to +2, can they?

    I expected my greater werewolf to count as +3 at least, but nope...
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 256
    Most of the Elementals hit as +4 weapons, if I recall correctly. All of the Druid's weaker earlier levels are kind of made up by the fact that two Fire elementals can wreck a large part of BG2, discounting Death Spells.
    JuliusBorisovOrlonKronsteensemiticgod
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    Neverused said:

    Most of the Elementals hit as +4 weapons, if I recall correctly. All of the Druid's weaker earlier levels are kind of made up by the fact that two Fire elementals can wreck a large part of BG2, discounting Death Spells.

    Where can one find info about these +x properties?

    How is a player supposed to know for example that a balor is immune to +2?

    How is a player supposed to know what summoned creatures without 'weapons' to read about hit as, in terms of +x ??

    I'm frustrated... thank you very much for helping!
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 256
    NearInfinity is the main resource, though I've rubbish at using it. Everything else is googling and remembering: the Balor in the Underdark is one of the main reasons I keep tabs on all my +3 weapons.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 658
    Masklin said:

    That's a load of info. Thank you!

    But none of them can touch monsters that are immune to magical weapons up to +2, can they?

    I expected my greater werewolf to count as +3 at least, but nope...

    Animate Dead has +1 enchanted weapons. Mordenk's Sword hits as a +5 weapon, good enough to hit any enemy, but it's not really a great offensive summon (unless you're buffing it with spells like Haste and Strength of One). As has been mentioned, Elementals can hit pretty much anything. I forgot to mention Aerial Servant, which deals tremendous damage per hit and hits as if it had +4 weapons. Deva hits as though it had a +3 weapon, and I forget what the Planetar has, but I want to say it's also +3 or +4. I believe the Bears from Conjure Animals (6th level Druid Spell) have three attacks per round and hit as though they have +3 weapons, though I'm not positive on that because the Fire Elementals are an all-around superior summon.

    In terms of weapon immunity, very few enemies in SoA are going to be immune to +2 weapons unless it's a mage that casts a spell, (Mantle, Improved Mantle, Protection from Magical Weapons). Those spells grant pretty strong immunities, but they can be removed with Breach and they only last 4 rounds, anyway. Mostly the enemies that are immune to +2 weapons are going to be liches or demons.

    By ToB, +2 immunity becomes a bit more common and +3 immunity starts to show up rarely, but I believe +4 weapons will allow you to hit everything worth hitting.
    ThacoBell
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 389
    Basically you're supposed to figure these things out yourself. That's kind of the point of playing a strategy game - game gives you tools, you figure out how to use them to proceed... unlike say an action game where the point is to simply fight or puzzle your way from point A to B to point C etc.

    Most summoned minions can't harm monsters that require special enchantments to take damage, but note that many of the enemies you'll be fighting in this game are humanoids. That means (barring wizard protections) they are vulnerable to attacks from any summon.
    As for what types of weapons they use, mundane summons (bears, giant spiders, normal wolves/skeletons, ogres, etc) usually have +0 weapons. You generally use these as fodder or against humanoids, against which they can be very effective.
    Special monsters usually have anywhere from +0 to +4 weapons. Nymphs/Djinns/Ifrit have +0 IIRC but are spellcasters anyway. Dire wolves have +2, elementals can have +1 to +4 (the large Fire Elements have +4), skeleton warriors have +1, Mordenkainen's has +4, etc.
    Avoid the Nishruu and the Hakeashar, they don't work as well as they should (and even if they did, you would end up destroying a lot of magical items).

    The Shapeshifter is just a druid with some combat presence thanks to his forms. Ultimately he's still a druid, and they're all badass spellcasters.
    NoonOrlonKronsteensemiticgod
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,263
    edited April 3
    Masklin said:

    Neverused said:

    Most of the Elementals hit as +4 weapons, if I recall correctly. All of the Druid's weaker earlier levels are kind of made up by the fact that two Fire elementals can wreck a large part of BG2, discounting Death Spells.

    Where can one find info about these +x properties?

    How is a player supposed to know for example that a balor is immune to +2?

    How is a player supposed to know what summoned creatures without 'weapons' to read about hit as, in terms of +x ??

    I'm frustrated... thank you very much for helping!
    It's very much a game of trial and (frequent) error... Experiment with different things:

    If one character is hitting and another isn't, look at the difference between their weapons... Are they different enchantment levels? Does one deal crushing damage rather than piercing? Are their other effects like fire or cold damage in play?

    Look back through the combat log... has the enemy cast a spell like Protection from Magic Weapons?

    Look through your own spell lists and read descriptions... does a particular spell mention anything pertinent? Can you look up the opponent's spell and discover its limitations? Can another spell specifically counter it?

    It's a brutal learning curve, but if you can embrace that, it can be tremendously satisfying to master. :smile:
    ThacoBellsemiticgod
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 11,882
    Masklin said:

    Neverused said:

    Most of the Elementals hit as +4 weapons, if I recall correctly. All of the Druid's weaker earlier levels are kind of made up by the fact that two Fire elementals can wreck a large part of BG2, discounting Death Spells.

    Where can one find info about these +x properties?

    How is a player supposed to know for example that a balor is immune to +2?

    How is a player supposed to know what summoned creatures without 'weapons' to read about hit as, in terms of +x ??

    I'm frustrated... thank you very much for helping!
    You should really read the game manual. The current version of it gives detailed information on summons and their weapons.

    https://www.siegeofdragonspear.com/files/AdventurersGuide.pdf
    ThrasymachusThacoBellSomeSortsemiticgod
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,900
    if you have a a wizard with level 6 mage spells and summon earth elemental, I would suggest using that ( although you might want to save each time before you summon one)

    on playthroughs where I basically just run to the underdark as quick as possible, those earth elementals are life savers,

    the mage earth elementals dish out great damage, have great to hit, and can even soak up hits pretty well ( the level 6 druid spell summon fire elemental is also a great one as well if you have it)
    OrlonKronsteen
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    Big thanks to all of you for answers! This forum really is quite amazing at helping newbies.

    So I'm more or less satisfied, although...
    Nuin said:

    Avoid the Nishruu and the Hakeashar, they don't work as well as they should (and even if they did, you would end up destroying a lot of magical items).

    This gives me serious trust issues with games like these. I do find pleasure in figuring out the rules and challenges that are put in front of the player. What I don't like is when something behind the scenes is somehow busted or doesn't make sense at all. That's when immersion breaks and it's instead simply irritating rather than exciting - because I can't know if there's a bug or unintended feature in the game or if I'm just not understanding the situation properly.

    I looked into the adventurer's guide, and it does list some +x properties of summons. At least the elementals, which is nice. Did the creators of BG 1 and 2 intend for players to know all of this before playing, or is it technically cheating?
    OrlonKronsteenbob_veng
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 389
    edited April 3
    That applies to all games, really, even the "perfect" ones. Even established MMOs, and they throw out patches/fixes every week. Every game always has these skills which somehow don't work as well as intended, or which really on work well in paper.

    You shouldn't allow yourself to get discouraged if you find the few cases of this in BG2 (I suppose unless you've got something personal about the Nishruu/Hakeashar or something) or you'll never find satisfaction in practically any other major game you play.

    The game was always designed with exploration (or "adventuring") in mind, and that applies both in-game and mechanics-wise. Those features in particular got a significant amount of refinement/improvement if you compare BG1 and BG2, which turned out to be just what players wanted (not counting the few who were miffed that the devs decided that BG1 gave you too much freedom).
    ThacoBell
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 100
    Masklin said:

    Big thanks to all of you for answers! This forum really is quite amazing at helping newbies.

    So I'm more or less satisfied, although...

    Nuin said:

    Avoid the Nishruu and the Hakeashar, they don't work as well as they should (and even if they did, you would end up destroying a lot of magical items).

    This gives me serious trust issues with games like these. I do find pleasure in figuring out the rules and challenges that are put in front of the player. What I don't like is when something behind the scenes is somehow busted or doesn't make sense at all. That's when immersion breaks and it's instead simply irritating rather than exciting - because I can't know if there's a bug or unintended feature in the game or if I'm just not understanding the situation properly.

    I looked into the adventurer's guide, and it does list some +x properties of summons. At least the elementals, which is nice. Did the creators of BG 1 and 2 intend for players to know all of this before playing, or is it technically cheating?
    Regarding the Nishruu and Hakeashar then it is my belief that they are designed more to be used against the party than by it. There's a few Drow encounters in Underdark where a protracted fight can result in them summoning a Nishruu and it's extremely annoying for the party to deal with lol.

    They can be useful to act as a target for powerful enemy casters, but as a rule there's better 6th and 7th level spells in most scenarios.

    Part of the fun of the game is working out what spells and abilities are the most effective given a particular party set up, with so many to choose from some are invariably going to, for want of a better word, suck :wink:
    ThacoBellOrlonKronsteen
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,339
    Even with the spells that "suck", you will find that a lot of people consistently find uses for them. Track down the "Most Useless" and "Most Useful" spells threads sometime. They are quite the read.
    OrlonKronsteenproccosemiticgod
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    Nuin said:

    That applies to all games, really, even the "perfect" ones. Even established MMOs, and they throw out patches/fixes every week. Every game always has these skills which somehow don't work as well as intended, or which really on work well in paper.

    You shouldn't allow yourself to get discouraged if you find the few cases of this in BG2 (I suppose unless you've got something personal about the Nishruu/Hakeashar or something) or you'll never find satisfaction in practically any other major game you play.

    The game was always designed with exploration (or "adventuring") in mind, and that applies both in-game and mechanics-wise. Those features in particular got a significant amount of refinement/improvement if you compare BG1 and BG2, which turned out to be just what players wanted (not counting the few who were miffed that the devs decided that BG1 gave you too much freedom).

    I suppose I would gain something from cutting the game a little slack, yes. Thanks for reminding me. :]
    Borek said:


    Regarding the Nishruu and Hakeashar then it is my belief that they are designed more to be used against the party than by it. There's a few Drow encounters in Underdark where a protracted fight can result in them summoning a Nishruu and it's extremely annoying for the party to deal with lol.

    They can be useful to act as a target for powerful enemy casters, but as a rule there's better 6th and 7th level spells in most scenarios.

    Part of the fun of the game is working out what spells and abilities are the most effective given a particular party set up, with so many to choose from some are invariably going to, for want of a better word, suck :wink:

    Hmm. Okay. Guess that's fair enough. And yes, I think I agree. Still I think it's a shame that the Nishruu and Hakeashar do not at all deliver according to their description. Oh welp!
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    ThacoBell said:

    Even with the spells that "suck", you will find that a lot of people consistently find uses for them. Track down the "Most Useless" and "Most Useful" spells threads sometime. They are quite the read.

    Cool :>

    Will do!
    ThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,384
    edited April 4
    T
    Masklin said:

    Hmm. Okay. Guess that's fair enough. And yes, I think I agree. Still I think it's a shame that the Nishruu and Hakeashar do not at all deliver according to their description. Oh welp!

    I'm not quite sure what you mean here. These summons cannot melee or stand up for long against being meleed, but they can still be a good option against magic using enemies (and that is clear from the spell description). The reason someone said above you need to be careful using them is that they drain charges from magic items - and that may mean you lose an item you would like to take once an enemy is dead. If you know in advance what the enemy is carrying of course then you can choose which encounters to use these summons in ...

    It's perhaps also worth noting that the hakeashar (unlike the nishruu) needs magical weapons to hit. That means it can be useful in a wider range of circumstances than the nishruu.
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,255
    Not much to add here, the guys above have made a very good job explaining. I'm just gonna add though that on a recent playthrough, three fire elementals cleaned out an entire beholder lair on insane. Only one of them died. Feels a lot less cheesy than the using a certain shield.
    ThacoBellOrlonKronsteenprocco
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    edited April 4
    Grond0 said:

    I'm not quite sure what you mean here. These summons cannot melee or stand up for long against being meleed, but they can still be a good option against magic using enemies (and that is clear from the spell description). The reason someone said above you need to be careful using them is that they drain charges from magic items - and that may mean you lose an item you would like to take once an enemy is dead. If you know in advance what the enemy is carrying of course then you can choose which encounters to use these summons in ...

    It's perhaps also worth noting that the hakeashar (unlike the nishruu) needs magical weapons to hit. That means it can be useful in a wider range of circumstances than the nishruu.

    Draining charges is not a problem - you can simply sell and buy the item to recharge, I think?

    What is a problem is that I consider liches to be spellcasters, but out of my ten or so attempts at killing one, the nishruu/hakeashar failed completely to do anything useful. It attacked maybe 3-4 times, with the 'Weapon ineffective' feedback, and then it died to some SPELL.

    That is what I mean. :[
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,384
    edited April 4
    Masklin said:

    Draining charges is not a problem - you can simply sell and buy the item to recharge, I think?

    I'm afraid not - if charges are reduced to 0 the item disappears.
    What is a problem is that I consider liches to be spellcasters, but out of my ten or so attempts at killing one, the nishruu/hakeashar failed completely to do anything useful. It attacked maybe 3-4 times, with the 'Weapon ineffective' feedback, and then it died to some SPELL.
    That will be death spell - this banishes all creatures classed as summons irrespective of immunity or magic resistance. As was mentioned earlier in the thread the counter to that is to use simple summons initially to draw out the death spell(s) before sending in more valuable summons.

    Liches require magical weapons to hit - hence the weapon ineffective feedback. That doesn't though mean that the creatures are useless against them - having the lich concentrate on your summons allows you to concentrate on killing the lich.
    ThacoBell
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 402
    edited April 4
    What do Hakeashars hit as again? +2?

    I am just wondering if the weapon ineffective was because the Lich had a protection spell up (PfMW or one of the mantle family) or if we is naturally immune to Nishruu/Hakeashar attacks.

    In either case, I think other summons are more useful most of the time. In general, there are many very good summons: Elementals, Stalkers, Skeletal Warriors and especially Swords and Planetars are all useful.

    Also spiders when combined with Web - very nasty.
    ThacoBell
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    Grond0 said:

    I'm afraid not - if charges are reduced to 0 the item disappears.

    That will be death spell - this banishes all creatures classed as summons irrespective of immunity or magic resistance. As was mentioned earlier in the thread the counter to that is to use simple summons initially to draw out the death spell(s) before sending in more valuable summons.

    Liches require magical weapons to hit - hence the weapon ineffective feedback. That doesn't though mean that the creatures are useless against them - having the lich concentrate on your summons allows you to concentrate on killing the lich.

    Oh. Yeah in that case it's not very cool... :(

    So on the one hand we have magic called Death Spell, it banishes summoned creatures instantly regardless of everything. On the other hand we have a summoned creature that it 'completely immune to magic'.

    In my naïveté I expected the latter to override the former, since Death Spell is magic. Guess that's not how it is!
    Ammar said:

    What do Hakeashars hit as again? +2?

    I am just wondering if the weapon ineffective was because the Lich had a protection spell up (PfMW or one of the mantle family) or if we is naturally immune to Nishruu/Hakeashar attacks.

    In either case, I think other summons are more useful most of the time. In general, there are many very good summons: Elementals, Stalkers, Skeletal Warriors and especially Swords and Planetars are all useful.

    Also spiders when combined with Web - very nasty.

    All liches I've come across have PfMW in a round 1 contingency/trigger. Some of the meaner variants are probably immune up to +3 or something, but I don't know for sure!
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,900
    if a lich has protection from magical weapons cast on itself, that means for 4 rounds it's immune to ALL weapons ( since liches are immune to normal weapons by default)

    sometimes liches will instead use improved mantle on themselves which means the will be immune to all weapons that are +4 and less for 4 rounds ( so only +5 and higher will be able to damage them)

    next, I looked up on what the hakeashar does, and first of all, it's attack is the exact same as the nishruu's attack, plus it counts as a +0 weapon, second it does no damage (lol) but it has 2 effects; drain charges from items, and drain wizard spells, also though what I found interesting is that the weapon itself makes the nishruu/hakeashar immune to lower resistance
    ThacoBellOrlonKronsteenSkatansemiticgod
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 100
    sarevok57 said:

    if a lich has protection from magical weapons cast on itself, that means for 4 rounds it's immune to ALL weapons ( since liches are immune to normal weapons by default)

    sometimes liches will instead use improved mantle on themselves which means the will be immune to all weapons that are +4 and less for 4 rounds ( so only +5 and higher will be able to damage them)

    next, I looked up on what the hakeashar does, and first of all, it's attack is the exact same as the nishruu's attack, plus it counts as a +0 weapon, second it does no damage (lol) but it has 2 effects; drain charges from items, and drain wizard spells, also though what I found interesting is that the weapon itself makes the nishruu/hakeashar immune to lower resistance

    Yeah, i think this is the problem with using them against Liches, by default they cannot damage them with melee which means they cannot trigger their spell draining. It's like Vampires not being able to level drain if you have Prot.Magic Weapons on you.
    Skatan
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,339
    Liches are kinda in a class of their own. Don't treat them like just another mage.
    sarevok57SomeSortOrlonKronsteen
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 256
    Still, being Magic Immune means the lich is probably dumping a bunch of spells on it that it's not then dumping on you :tongue:
    The tier of summons (I'd say) goes something like this: Nishruu, Skelly warriors, and Hakeashar, Aerial Servants against high level mages like liches whose Death Spells have been baited out.
    Fire Elementals, Conjure Animals, and Skelly warriors vs most melee bruisers, and mid level mages (whose Death spells have been baited out)
    Nymphs are incredibly useful early-game for their versatility: keep them safe, and they'll push you through most of the SoA early encounters barring Trolls and the like.
    Summon Monsters 1, 2, 3, Carrion Summons, spider spawn, nymphs later in the game: summons you use to bait out death spells :tongue:
    sarevok57
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    The information just keeps pouring! This is awesome.

    While I understand the situation now, and accept it for what it is... I still think it's quite silly that the Hakeashar can't properly do what their description promises, since most high-level spellcasters use some form of weapon immunity. Perhaps this is only an issue with liches though, since most spellcasters can be breached?

    Hmmm. ^_^
«13
Sign In or Register to comment.