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Summoned monsters seem useless

2

Comments

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,928
    well the hakeashars and nishruus both have 100 % resistance to magic and all elemental damage, plus they have 50% crushing/piercing resistance, 20 % slashing resistance and 70% missile resistance,

    ( their AC's aren't all that great if not just terrible; nishruu 10, hakeashar 8 ) but they have some HP- nishruu 72 ( level 9 creature) hakeashar 92 ( level 12 creature)

    so it seems to me, that their best utility as noted above is to soak up spells and once the protection from magical weaponry depletes ( from non lich casters) then they can start soaking up some mage spells

    plus, the hakeshar is also immune to normal weapons as well, which makes them great for fighting against rakshasas or other monsters who don't have magical weapons

    but do note, that nishruus and hakeashars deal no damage when they hit, so unless they are used for distractions, they are best used against enemy casters
    ThacoBellsemiticgod
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761

    You should really read the game manual. The current version of it gives detailed information on summons and their weapons.

    https://www.siegeofdragonspear.com/files/AdventurersGuide.pdf

    Sweet addition!
    JuliusBorisov
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Masklin said:

    Hmm. Okay. Guess that's fair enough. And yes, I think I agree. Still I think it's a shame that the Nishruu and Hakeashar do not at all deliver according to their description. Oh welp!

    How do Nishruu / Hakeashar not do what the description promises? The description promises a mist that deals no damage but is immune to magic and is drawn to enemy mages like a moth to a flame, eating away memorized spells and weapon charges with each hit. That's exactly what it provides.

    I mean, sure, it's not immune to Death Spell, but Death Spell says it automatically slays summoned creatures, so those spell descriptions are in direct conflict and no matter how it's resolved one of those spells will seem like it doesn't "work" right. To me it makes more sense for the "magic immune" monster to have one chink in its armor than for the "summon killing" spell to have one summon it doesn't kill, since summon killing is already a more niche application, and niche effects tend to trump general effects when the two come into conflict.

    Nishruu and Hakeashar are both still perfectly functional spells, though. They drive mages crazy, soaking up a bunch of spells and coming out none the worse for wear, (other than their noted weakness to Death Spell). Whether the Nishruu/Hakeashar is hitting or not, I guarantee you enemy mages are wasting a lot of spells while one is active, spells that otherwise would have been directed at you.

    Yeah, mages casting a spell that makes it so the Nishruu can't hit them negates its "on-hit" effect, but mages casting a spell that makes it so a Wyvern or Spider can't hit them negates their on-hit poison, and mages casting a spell so that a Carrion Crawler can't hit them negates their on-hit hold, and so on and so forth. This is why mages like casting spells that make it so enemies can't hit them. :)

    I mean, from a level 7 spell you can't really expect an unstoppable "I win!" button against enemy mages, (who are typically the most dangerous enemies in the game). That doesn't mean they can't still be a solid contributor to a larger mage-killing strategy.

    (Also, as has been noted, "Liches" are kind of a different animal entirely from "mages", despite both casting spells. Liches are some of the most dangerous creatures in the universe, high-level archmages who were so powerful they were able to cheat death itself. Expecting a level 6 or 7 spell to do much against one of the mightiest spellcasters that ever lived was always going to be a pretty big ask.)
    ArtonaThacoBellsarevok57islandking
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    SomeSort said:

    How do Nishruu / Hakeashar not do what the description promises?

    I suppose it's about interpretation, but for me, an inexperienced player, I would not expect the 'successfully deals 0 damage' requirement, for example. And yes I did take 'completely immune to magic' literally, because I don't have knowledge about high-level spells' particular effects.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,928
    death spell's description should match with death fog's description where death fog states that it will kill all summoned creatures regardless of hit dice and immunities, that would help clear up a bit of the confusion I think
    ThacoBellSkatan
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 729
    Masklin said:

    I suppose it's about interpretation, but for me, an inexperienced player, I would not expect the 'successfully deals 0 damage' requirement, for example. And yes I did take 'completely immune to magic' literally, because I don't have knowledge about high-level spells' particular effects.

    I can only assume you are playing IWDEE or an outdated version, since the exception to Death Spell is explicitly spelled out in their description in the BGEE series:
    "... The nishruu is completely immune to magic (except for Death Spell), and magic will actually heal it. ..."
    Of course, that is all it lists, when they are also subject to Death Fog, Dispel Magic, and Remove Magic, though the latter two require direct targeting.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,928
    it's funny that the spell says that magic will heal the creature when I didn't see any evidence of that being fact, perhaps it's in the script? I will have to take a gander
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761

    You should really read the game manual. The current version of it gives detailed information on summons and their weapons.

    https://www.siegeofdragonspear.com/files/AdventurersGuide.pdf

    Just a quick note, but the manual seems to be missing stats for Chan and the Devas.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,928

    Masklin said:

    Neverused said:

    Most of the Elementals hit as +4 weapons, if I recall correctly. All of the Druid's weaker earlier levels are kind of made up by the fact that two Fire elementals can wreck a large part of BG2, discounting Death Spells.

    Where can one find info about these +x properties?

    How is a player supposed to know for example that a balor is immune to +2?

    How is a player supposed to know what summoned creatures without 'weapons' to read about hit as, in terms of +x ??

    I'm frustrated... thank you very much for helping!
    You should really read the game manual. The current version of it gives detailed information on summons and their weapons.

    https://www.siegeofdragonspear.com/files/AdventurersGuide.pdf
    it looks like there is a ? mark for the HD on the elemental princes that you can summon, if anyone is curious they have 20 HD

    SkatanJuliusBorisov
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 11,978
    SomeSort said:

    You should really read the game manual. The current version of it gives detailed information on summons and their weapons.

    https://www.siegeofdragonspear.com/files/AdventurersGuide.pdf

    Just a quick note, but the manual seems to be missing stats for Chan and the Devas.
    Thank you! If you spot a mistake, report it here: https://forums.beamdog.com/categories/text-errors-and-typos
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    kjeron said:

    Masklin said:

    I suppose it's about interpretation, but for me, an inexperienced player, I would not expect the 'successfully deals 0 damage' requirement, for example. And yes I did take 'completely immune to magic' literally, because I don't have knowledge about high-level spells' particular effects.

    I can only assume you are playing IWDEE or an outdated version, since the exception to Death Spell is explicitly spelled out in their description in the BGEE series:
    "... The nishruu is completely immune to magic (except for Death Spell), and magic will actually heal it. ..."
    Of course, that is all it lists, when they are also subject to Death Fog, Dispel Magic, and Remove Magic, though the latter two require direct targeting.
    Ah. No I'm just being unobservant... I'm playing the most recent version of BG2EE. I probably reasoned like 'Oh so it's immune to all spells except for one that means it's basically immune to all spells cool I will use it against liches because liches seem to only cast a bunch of spells I'll win this way pew pew'.

    Very interesting that Dispel magic kills them... THAT I find very odd. I'd wager it's an unintended feature?
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 729
    Masklin said:

    Very interesting that Dispel magic kills them... THAT I find very odd. I'd wager it's an unintended feature?

    Their script specifically checks to see if any of the 3 dispel magic spells has been cast on them, and forces them to kill themselves if it has. That's too much effort for unintentional, but certainly curious as to why it was implemented.
    sarevok57
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 1,791
    I wonder why they decided to make them vulnerable to Dispel Magic. I couldn't find any mention of it on this site. But apparently Nishruu are vulnerable to salt in any form. Sadly there is no salt ammunition available in the game.
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    kjeron said:

    Masklin said:

    Very interesting that Dispel magic kills them... THAT I find very odd. I'd wager it's an unintended feature?

    Their script specifically checks to see if any of the 3 dispel magic spells has been cast on them, and forces them to kill themselves if it has. That's too much effort for unintentional, but certainly curious as to why it was implemented.
    Curious indeed.

    I double-checked the descriptions. The Nishruu is supposedly immune to everything but Death Spell, but the Hakeashar is just immune to everything magic. But it also says that the Hakeashar is identical to the Nishruu in most respects so meh.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,928
    Masklin said:

    kjeron said:

    Masklin said:

    Very interesting that Dispel magic kills them... THAT I find very odd. I'd wager it's an unintended feature?

    Their script specifically checks to see if any of the 3 dispel magic spells has been cast on them, and forces them to kill themselves if it has. That's too much effort for unintentional, but certainly curious as to why it was implemented.
    Curious indeed.

    I double-checked the descriptions. The Nishruu is supposedly immune to everything but Death Spell, but the Hakeashar is just immune to everything magic. But it also says that the Hakeashar is identical to the Nishruu in most respects so meh.

    speaking about immunities and special abilities, apparently the nishruu is immune to poison and can see invisible creatures while the hakeashar is not immune to poison and cannot see invisible creatures, kind of peculiar that the hakeashar is weaker than the nishruu in that regard
  • BaptorBaptor Member Posts: 154
    Masklin said:

    Hmm. Okay. Guess that's fair enough. And yes, I think I agree. Still I think it's a shame that the Nishruu and Hakeashar do not at all deliver according to their description. Oh welp!

    Wow, not my experience at all. As far as Shadows of Amn, I used Nishruu and Hakeashar to win one of the biggest boss fights in the game.

    No spoilers, but this fight is against a mage who is literally as powerful as Elminster (they copied and pasted his stats for this fight onto the boss). I ran away to a safe area and summoned wave after wave of those magic eating ghosts. I sent them one at a time so the mage wasted all his death spells on the first 2-4. After that they just kept coming until they drained him of every single memorized spell. Then...I struck.

    Against a mage, the two magic ghosts are pretty much invincible. Only death spell will dispatch them. Anything else heals them. The key is to summon one (preferably the weaker) and send it to harass the mage. The mage will blow his death spell on the lesser one. Then you send in the big guns.

    Of course, as earlier stated, the boss mage had more than 1-2 death spells, but he still has only a finite amount. A single sorcerer can summon 6 of each type per day for a total of 12 magic ghosts. Most people have a mage backup so that's another potential 8 or so ghosts.

    I love those spells.

    As far as other summons, the only ones I've found useful are: spider spawn, summon nymph, animate dead, invisible stalker, summon elemental (druids only version), mordenkainen's sword, and summon deva/planatar. (I feel like I'm leaving something out)

    Tip: Mord Swords are immune to Mind Flayer anything. They are an I WIN button for illithids.

    sarevok57
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23
    edited April 5
    I was interested in Mordenkainen's sword, but assumed that it would inherit its thac0 from the mage, meaning it would never hit anything... so I never tried it.

    I look forward to trying the Hakeashar on powerful non-lich spellcasters in that case! I can imagine it will be quite hilarious. I hope I'm wrong when I guess that the mage you're talking about is Irenicus. It's difficult to seek help/advice about BG games without spoiling. So damn hard :P
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 260
    edited April 5
    Mordenkainen's sword is immune to all damage besides Magic damage, so only Magic Missile, Skull trap, ADHW, and Death spell can do anything to this summon. It's not really flashy, but darn is it hard for anything other than a Mage to kill. It might not kill your enemies quickly, but attrition is a real and painful thing.
    sarevok57
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 389
    edited April 5
    Mordenkainen's Sword from older editions is a lot more powerful, and the BG2 implementation definitely buffs the original spell too.
    Think of it as a floating Excalibur.
  • ariakas2ariakas2 Member Posts: 10
    edited April 6
    Aside from genies and hakeashar (which they have uses too), summons become more powerful as you level up. Animate dead is good after level 15, morky sword is untouchable by melee and can tank anything, aerial servant is a strong fighter, elementals have couple of immunities and hit like truck, summoned demons are powers of destruction which cannot be banished. Elemental princes/deva/planetars are too strong. They can cut through hardest enemies with ease. I advice waiting a little bit, the days of strong summons are coming.
    Post edited by ariakas2 on
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,588
    @ariakas2 I read that as "monkey sword".
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 359
    @Masklin A tip: For new players, using summons as fodder, party members as damage dealers is a popular path to stick with.
    You can definitely dish out tons of damage, killing powerful enemies using ONLY your summons, but not until you get yourself quite familiar with the game, actually by then you'll be capable of playing BG in whatever way you want, with whatever mods you want, which is the beauty of it.
    ArtonaMasklin
  • MasklinMasklin Member Posts: 23

    @Masklin A tip: For new players, using summons as fodder, party members as damage dealers is a popular path to stick with.
    You can definitely dish out tons of damage, killing powerful enemies using ONLY your summons, but not until you get yourself quite familiar with the game, actually by then you'll be capable of playing BG in whatever way you want, with whatever mods you want, which is the beauty of it.

    It pleases me greatly to hear you say that. I loathe games in which players are encouraged or required to choose one of 1-3 viable paths. If you're correct in that BG1/2 can be beat in whatever hilarious ways imaginable, I will be 10/10 impressed.
  • 11302101130210 Member Posts: 197
    It really depends what creatures you use. I think people generally summon way too much. I tend to finish most battles without any summoned creatures, barring the expansion where the Deva is basically needed.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,588
    edited April 8
    Something that I've wondered about for some time. Is there an appreciable difference between the Deva and Planeatar? HAving both seems kind of wasteful as you can only have one celestial at a time anyway.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,161
    ThacoBell said:

    Something that I've wondered about for some time. Is there an appreciable difference between the Deva and Planeatar? HAving both seems kind of wasteful as you can only have one celestial at a time anyway.

    Devas suck, IMHO. They have way fewer and weaker spells than the Planetar does, and I don't think their weapon counts as a vorpal weapon the way the Planetar sword does. They probably have worse stats, as well, though I don't know all of the stat blocks like some people around here.

    ThacoBellsemiticgod
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 2,928
    the only time that I have ever tried the deva/planeatar was when ToB first came out, after that I have never ever used them again
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 609
    SomeSort said:


    Just a quick note, but the manual seems to be missing stats for Chan and the Devas.

    I think I saw Chan and the Devas open for Big Head Todd and the Monsters back in 1990.

    sarevok57SomeSort
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