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Charming Tazok and his Confusing Banter (Spoiler)

HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
I always found Tazok's dialogue after a charm person, equal parts interesting and confusing. He has a very low save vs. spell, but its easy enough to get him to fail his breath weapon save via Algernon's Cloak. Once the charm takes, talk to him and he relays the following:



"I'm a member of the Blacktalons. All I know is that we've been hired by the Zhentarim to attack the iron shipments coming along the Coast Way road."

This doesn't seem to jive with the story line and what we know of Tazok and the bandits plaguing the Sword Coast. The plot to disrupt the iron trade along the Coast Way is the Iron Throne's scheme -- not the Zhentarim's. In fact, the Zhents are investigating what is going on, same as everyone else (hence Xzar and Montaron's mission). While they are certainly also an evil organization, their main goal is to counter the Iron Throne's influence in the region. Tazok works for Davaeorn, who is also employed by the Iron Throne and is not a Zhent.

Seems to be an oversight with this dialogue. Perhaps in early drafts, the Zhentarim were considered the antagonist instead of the Iron Throne (which was obviously created for the game). It might even be worth replacing the word "Zhentarim" with "Iron Throne" to make the statement accurate, but I don't know if Beamdog has the rights to make such dialogue changes.





image

Post edited by HaHaCharade on
typo_tillyAndreaColomboThacoBellAerakarJuliusBorisov
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Comments

  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    Gallenger said:

    It's also possible that Tazok has been lied to and he believes it's the Zhents he's working for - and thus the source of the rumors that the zhents are responsible, was started by the Iron Throne itself.

    Interesting theory, but I'm not so sure that telling someone who works for you that they work for someone else, would be practical, especially since Zhent agents are all over. Such a fabrication would likely quickly fall apart and draw the ire of some pretty nasty people.

  • HalfCelestialHalfCelestial Member Posts: 176
    Wait, wait. When do you get a chance to charm Tazok and talk to him?

    HaHaCharade
  • ShandaxxShandaxx Member Posts: 7,225
    Gallenger said:

    and thus the source of the rumors that the zhents are responsible, was started by the Iron Throne itself.

    That is very very strongly implied in the game.

    ThacoBellJuliusBorisovRelSundan
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    edited April 9
    Shandyr said:

    Gallenger said:

    and thus the source of the rumors that the zhents are responsible, was started by the Iron Throne itself.

    That is very very strongly implied in the game.
    Interesting. Its funny then that the assassin Nimbul who "greets" you in Nashkel in Chapter 3, and who one would say is certainly lower-ranking in the overall operations, seems to know who he is working for when Tazok does not. I need to locate the text of the Ender Sai conversation. I'm not familiar with it because its been so long.

    Here's the Nimbul charmed text:



    "Now isn't this strange, you are now my friend! This is quite the predicament; I've been hired to kill you, yet now I love you. What am I to do? I know......I know! I will tell you want you want to hear, and then I shall kill you. Does this satisfy you? No matter, let me begin: Once their [sic] were three pigs who had built a house of iron. This house had brought them fortune and comfort, but it was now threatened by the big bad wolf! So the three pigs hired out a small man named Nimbul. 'Nimbul' they said 'You must kill this wolf for us. If you do this, you will be given much gold to line your pockets.' So Nimbul set out to kill the wolf, but then something happened that he never expected: Nimbul fell in love with the wolf! So now, to Nimbul's sorrow, he must carry out this order and end the wolf's life. Good bye!"

    ThacoBellAerakarJuliusBorisov
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    After reading my most recent post again (lol), I guess it doesn't actually imply that Nimbul *knows* this is the Iron Throne. Still, the Zhents being framed is something I can't believe I've missed. You always pick up something new I guess. Seems a risky practice to get the good *and* evil organizations up in arms against you.

  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426

    Wait, wait. When do you get a chance to charm Tazok and talk to him?



    I was able to do it with Algernon's cloak, after Teven (or I guess Raiken if you went that route) takes you to the bandit camp, but *before* he talks to you the first time. His saves are ridiculous though - not sure if they change, but I couldn't do it after he talked to me. I'll edit the OP with a screenshot.

    HalfCelestialJuliusBorisov
  • ShandaxxShandaxx Member Posts: 7,225
    edited April 9
    I don't think that Nimbul as an assassin needs to think that the Zhents have hired him.

    When there is trouble in the region and you are responsible for it, how do you make sure no one thinks you are at fault? Right, you present a scapegoat.

    And that's what the Iron Throne does with the Zhents.

    In contrast to Nimbul, the bandits need to think they work for the Zhents. Why? Because obviously the Flaming Fist is active in the region and will manage to capture a bandit once in a while.

    And they all believe firmly that they work for the Zhents. So when the Flaming Fist interrogates them, they will say exactly that.

    Of course news of this will finally reach the true actual Zhentarim. And they will not be very pleased to hear that they have been accused of something they didn't do. And they will send someone to investigate these lies.

    JuliusBorisovBalrog99
  • ShandaxxShandaxx Member Posts: 7,225
    edited April 9

    After reading my most recent post again (lol), I guess it doesn't actually imply that Nimbul *knows* this is the Iron Throne. Still, the Zhents being framed is something I can't believe I've missed. You always pick up something new I guess. Seems a risky practice to get the good *and* evil organizations up in arms against you.

    I never knew Nimbul's charm talk. It's very funny actually.

    But now that I have seen it I think it's very clear that he knows exactly who he is working for.

    "three pigs who had built a house of iron" that is so clearly referring to Rieltar Anchev, Brunos Costak and Thaldorn Tenhevich the three regional leaders of the Iron Throne branch on the Sword Coast.

    What I find funny is that even under the charm spell Nimbul seems to realize that he has to kill you.

    "So Nimbul set out to kill the wolf, but then something happened that he never expected: Nimbul fell in love with the wolf! So now, to Nimbul's sorrow, he must carry out this order and end the wolf's life."

    That is referring to you casting the charming spell upon him. It made him "fall in love" with you.

    Edit: Didn't see that he even says it at the very beginning:
    "Now isn't this strange, you are now my friend! This is quite the predicament; I've been hired to kill you, yet now I love you."

    HaHaCharadeJuliusBorisov
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,451
    I think @HaHaCharade has the right of it being an oversight.

    But how can you blame the developers?
    Only an utter maniac with a death wish would attempt to charm Tazok.
    Has Kivan taught you nothing???

    (RP people, RP) ;)

    HaHaCharadeAerakar
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426

    I think @HaHaCharade has the right of it being an oversight.

    But how can you blame the developers?
    Only an utter maniac with a death wish would attempt to charm Tazok.
    Has Kivan taught you nothing???

    (RP people, RP) ;)

    Actually I'm not so sure now. After more testing, if you talk further on in the camp to the bandit guards, they too speak of working for the Zhentarim.

    You even get a journal entry that says:

    "I've heard rumors that Tazok gets his orders from the Zhentarim. Of this I am not too sure."

    I would just think that Tazok would know the truth, and relay the truth if charmed. But apparently he's pretty dumb... which doesn't surprise me I guess, lol.

  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    Here's another entry, from a stockboy in one of the bandit tents...



    "I've learned something interesting from a hobgoblin stockboy in the bandit camp today. He wasn't quite sure who was funding this whole operation, but his guesses leaned towards either the Zhentarim, or a new group, the Iron Throne. I don't know much about the latter, so I had best keep my eyes peeled and my ear to the ground...."



    Funny. I guess hobgoblin stockboys know more than Tazok does. LOL.

    AndreaColomboAerakarJuliusBorisovBalrog99
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    And finally the nail in the coffin -- A journal entry from Taurgosz

    "It would seem that the Black Talons were hired by Tazok at the request of the Iron Throne! The rumors of a Zhentish threat would seem to be unfounded in light of this information".

    I guess all this confirms is... Tazok is an ignorant stooge. Even more so than I thought. He should be working to stock shelves as well.

    AndreaColomboAerakarBalrog99dustbubsy
  • ShandaxxShandaxx Member Posts: 7,225
    edited April 9
    What were Taurgosz' words exactly? Did you charm him to?

  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    Funny you should mention that. Just did - Here is what he says.



    image



    Given this, I think Tazok should really tell you the truth upon charm. Kind of silly. Oh well.

    ShandaxxJuliusBorisov
  • ShandaxxShandaxx Member Posts: 7,225
    Please skip this video to 03:27 and stop the video then and read the text:

    HaHaCharade
  • ShandaxxShandaxx Member Posts: 7,225
    edited April 9
    Ender Sai implies that Ardenor Crush and Taurgosz Khosann (wow there is even a spelling mistake in my video above missing the "r" in Taurgosz. Maybe that is still a typo in the enhanced edition, wanna check?)
    think Tazok is getting orders from the Zhents.

    And Ender Sai implies that actually Tazok knows where the orders actually come from.

    However, the charmed talks of Taurgosz and Tazok imply the opposite, namely that Tazok doesn't know while Taurgosz does know who they are actually working for.

    HaHaCharadeJuliusBorisovBalrog99
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    Shandyr said:

    Ender Sai implies that Ardenor Crush and Taurgosz Khosann (wow there is even a spelling mistake in my video above missing the "r" in Taurgosz. Maybe that is still a typo in the enhanced edition, wanna check?)
    think Tazok is getting orders from the Zhents.

    And Ender Sai implies that actually Tazok knows where the orders actually come from.

    However, the charmed talks of Taurgosz and Tazok imply the opposite, namely that Tazok doesn't know while Taurgosz does know who they are actually working for.

    I agree. ... and I confirmed that the typo is fixed in the EE :smile:

    ShandaxxJuliusBorisov
  • ShandaxxShandaxx Member Posts: 7,225
    edited April 9
    Well then let's first try to find plausible explanations within the game.

    Ender Sai may be wrong. He may be under the wrong impression that Tazok does know what's going on but Taurgosz does not.

    In that case I think he may argue like you would @HaHaCharade . He thinks simply because Tazok is the chief and higher up in command he should know it and Taurgosz should not.

    But the charm spells would show that to be false. So we can also conclude that Ender Sai did not try to put a charm spell on them or he would have known. He simply makes a wrong guess based on the chain of commands.

    Another ingame explanation could be that the charm spells don't work exactly like we think they do.

    "If the spell's recipient fails his Saving Throw (with a +3 modifier), he regards the caster as a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and protected. The caster may give him orders, and the charmed individual will carry them out as quickly as possible."

    http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Charm_Person

    So what if Tazok knows the truth but he would not even tell it to his closest allies and friends?

    Also note, you did never ask him directly to tell you the truth, did you? Tazok told you what he wanted a close ally to think. And that simply means that he would not even share this information with a close ally.

    HaHaCharadeAndreaColomboJuliusBorisovBalrog99
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 2,313
    edited April 9
    Shandyr said:

    Taurgosz Khosann (wow there is even a spelling mistake in my video above missing the "r" in Taurgosz. Maybe that is still a typo in the enhanced edition, wanna check?)

    The error came from vanilla BG.

    I still find it hard writing his correct name now I'm mainly playing the EE - after so many years of doing no-reload reports saying "Taugosz" putting the extra r in just doesn't feel right :/.

    ShandaxxAerakarAndreaColomboJuliusBorisov
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    Shandyr said:

    Well then let's first try to find plausible explanations within the game.

    Ender Sai may be wrong. He may be under the wrong impression that Tazok does know what's going on but Taurgosz does not.

    In that case I think he may argue like you would @HaHaCharade . He thinks simply because Tazok is the chief and higher up in command he should know it and Taurgosz should not.

    But the charm spells would show that to be false. So we can also conclude that Ender Sai did not try to put a charm spell on them or he would have known. He simply makes a wrong guess based on the chain of commands.

    Another ingame explanation could be that the charm spells don't work exactly like we think they do.

    "If the spell's recipient fails his Saving Throw (with a +3 modifier), he regards the caster as a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and protected. The caster may give him orders, and the charmed individual will carry them out as quickly as possible."

    http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Charm_Person

    So what if Tazok knows the truth but he would not even tell it to his closest allies and friends?

    Also note, you did never ask him directly to tell you the truth, did you? Tazok told you what he wanted a close ally to think. And that simply means that he would not even share this information with a close ally.

    Makes sense.

    Shandaxx
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 529
    From this post and @Harpagornis current bounty hunter solo run in another thread, I have become aware as never before of the power of the charm cloaks. I have never really used them before. They are crazy OP it would seem, but in a non-obvious way.

    HaHaCharadeAndreaColomboJuliusBorisov
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426
    Aerakar said:

    From this post and @Harpagornis current bounty hunter solo run in another thread, I have become aware as never before of the power of the charm cloaks. I have never really used them before. They are crazy OP it would seem, but in a non-obvious way.

    The one charge a day limit in EE helps limit their OPness. Its the same as resting with a Dire Charm really. Magic Resistance still blocks the Breath Weapon mechanic apparently in most cases.

    AerakarAndreaColombo
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 85
    Wait doesn't Rieltar or Sarevok hire Nimbul directly? Or does he have a different author on his assassin note. I remember seeing Rieltar signing off on most of those bounty/assassination request letters.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 13,069
    'I know that I know nothing' - Socrates.

    HaHaCharade
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,426

    Wait doesn't Rieltar or Sarevok hire Nimbul directly? Or does he have a different author on his assassin note. I remember seeing Rieltar signing off on most of those bounty/assassination request letters.

    I believe Davaeorn signs off on the letter which mentions Nimbul, to Tazok.

    In truth, nobody knows who anyone works for. Its a terribly managed organization. :lol:

    Balrog99Aerakar
  • St. AndrewSt. Andrew Member Posts: 85
    I mean i think it's managed pretty well. It's similar to how dummy corporations work.

    Aerakar
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