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Sanguihn City: What is the moral path?

GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Let us say that you are a cavalier paladin. You are pretty much Captain America. You are in the city of the shark people. Evil creatures who raid the surface, killing innocents and making war on everyone. They now need your help to save them from extinction!

What is the lawful good, good-two-shoes thing to do here? Lie and betray the mad, murderous king who trusts you and support the power-hungry, pragmatic rebel prince? Or keep your word to the evil dictator in the hope that it leads to the extinction of his people?
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Comments

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    i always saw the prince choice as the good one. it is clear the king is to insane to rule.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    I doubt that they are the only Sauhagin in existance, the oceans are very big.

    Charname is a land dweller who they prey on so kill them all.
    They do attack the ship, I dare say there were a few reasonably blameless sailors who went down with it. And judging by the treasure, how many simple passenger/fishing ect. ships have they destroyed over the years?

    To me it's a no brainer, why would I treat them better than they treat anything landbased they get their hands on?
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,174
    Grum said:

    Mantis37 said:

    I would agree that a Paladin would probably not trust Saemon. We really need an additional underdark area if you go through the portal so that there is an actual dilemma, as it is visiting the Sahaugin City is usually a no brainer.

    Now that's some EE content I'd gladly pay for!
    Just brainstorming... Were I designing that kind of area I think that, as the more civilised races have already been showcased on the current Underdark map, the focus could be on the more disordered elements. For example a group of Fomorians / Mongrelmen, possibly warped by local radiation or run-off from some warped magical experiments. An environmental twist could be given to that of course, perhaps some outcast wizard is experimenting for the great good, or it's a Phaeerim striving to exterminate/ subjugate the other more organised races. They'd be living off local wildlife like Rothe and farming fungi / slime etc. Some destruction could also have been inflicted by Bodhi/ Irenicus too, which would make for a tense initial encounter.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    I haven't ever casts detect evil down there, but if they are evil then a LG paladin could easily be RPd as slaying them all without helping either sides first. But I understand your dilemma and have had the same thoughts in playthrough with good charnames. In the end I am always to EXP-hungry to let them live so I usually make up some random reason ("Hey, are you eye-ballin' ma woman!?").
  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 1,091
    Sorry for intruding inside this topic, but I've heard tactics adds a certain encounter on the sahuagin and I've read on the internet that few people described it to me as making sense.

    I was wondering if you have played with improved sahuagin city, if there is dialogue added, if the new encounter is cheesy or op.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Something I think people seems to be forgetting is that paladins are basically religious zealots, and we know from ample empirical evidence that such people are bigoted - what, pray tell, would a paladin do with someone who not only mocks the one true faith by having a slightly different one but is not even of the same species?
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    What is the lawful good, good-two-shoes thing to do here?


    Crusading against aquatic fiends, of course. Deus lo volt! ;)
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    DrakeICN said:

    Something I think people seems to be forgetting is that paladins are basically religious zealots, and we know from ample empirical evidence that such people are bigoted - what, pray tell, would a paladin do with someone who not only mocks the one true faith by having a slightly different one but is not even of the same species?

    This sounds more like a parody of D&D Paladins to me. Or badly written ones.

    Regarding the op's question however, would a lawful good character be okay with genocide? In a morally ambiguous situation, my go to standard is usually, "what preserves life the best?" Will king Ixthetocal's madness lead to more death and raiding on the surface? Will prince Villynaty be able to hold drow back better due to his leadership, leading to reduced drow raids elsewhere? Personally, I feel that Villynaty's sanity will restrain a crazy murder all campaign well enough to support. For proponents of "kill em all" Will the resulting power vacuum allow the drow to move in and build a staging area for more frequent raids? We know Ust Natha isn't the only drow city in the area, with Ched Nasad being close enough for a small group to relatively safely traverse the Underdark.
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 803
    It really comes to the judgment of the Paladin in question, really. Is "the enemy of my enemy" enough of a reason to strengthen the Sahuagin, who are presumably also raiding merchant ships and doing their own surface raids? If so, sure, strengthen them as much as possible to fight the Drow. But if not, then I see no reason to NOT slaughter them all, if possible, because the ones you kill are all combatants and would kill innocents if left unchecked.

    And yes, a lawful good character would be alright with killing all members of a race in an area, not if they dislike that race, but if the ones that are there actually deserve their destruction. And I think there's a strong case that the Sahuagin fully deserve their destruction.

    So in the end, I can see all three resolutions making sense for a LG paladin: let the king rule to cause the race to self-destruct under his reign, strengthen the prince so that they can continue waging war against the Drow, and go on your own massacre because they bloody deserve it.
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    Lawful Good Paladin in a city of always chaotic evil?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CP9dg38cAI
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    Fardragon said:

    Kill them. Kill them ALL.

    This.
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    edited April 2017
    ThacoBell said:



    For proponents of "kill em all" Will the resulting power vacuum allow the drow to move in and build a staging area for more frequent raids? We know Ust Natha isn't the only drow city in the area, with Ched Nasad being close enough for a small group to relatively safely traverse the Underdark.

    Ust Natha falls, too. Yes, other Drow settlements scare in the area. However, by also wiping out the kuo-toa, beholders, and mind flayers you are giving the deep gnomes a big, big break.

  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    ThacoBell said:

    DrakeICN said:

    Something I think people seems to be forgetting is that paladins are basically religious zealots, and we know from ample empirical evidence that such people are bigoted - what, pray tell, would a paladin do with someone who not only mocks the one true faith by having a slightly different one but is not even of the same species?

    This sounds more like a parody of D&D Paladins to me. Or badly written ones.

    Regarding the op's question however, would a lawful good character be okay with genocide? In a morally ambiguous situation, my go to standard is usually, "what preserves life the best?" Will king Ixthetocal's madness lead to more death and raiding on the surface? Will prince Villynaty be able to hold drow back better due to his leadership, leading to reduced drow raids elsewhere? Personally, I feel that Villynaty's sanity will restrain a crazy murder all campaign well enough to support. For proponents of "kill em all" Will the resulting power vacuum allow the drow to move in and build a staging area for more frequent raids? We know Ust Natha isn't the only drow city in the area, with Ched Nasad being close enough for a small group to relatively safely traverse the Underdark.
    Gets back to the question I asked at the top. Does your Paladin clear out the Kuo-Toa dungeon, Mindflayer dungeon, *AND* Beholder dungeon? Because if so, the morally consistent thing to do would be to wipe out the Sauhagin, too. And the Drow if you can pull it off.

    On the other hand, if your Paladin is prone to asking himself what preserves life best, he'd probably be more inclined to pick the "most evil" of the three neighbor races in the underdark and kill them only, leaving the other two untouched. (The Mind Flayers almost certainly would be the race who most had it coming.)
  • ChidojuanChidojuan Member Posts: 211
    Not to be a contrarian, but I always thought that killing the Prince indirectly let to a better outcome for society in general. The King is obviously not going to make decisions that consider the good of his subjects, so his kingdom will rot from the inside, and overall pose less of a threat to the goodly folk. I feel like role playing a true Paladin would require you to at least attempt to see the big picture in this way. An inbred Sahuagin is a dumb Sahuagin, and a dumb Sahuagin is easier to kill.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    Grum said:

    Great conversation here. Shows that there really isn't any one 'right' answer here.

    For the record, my last paladin run ended up helping the prince. Because he couldn't figure out the right answer, and the prophecy said that he would save the city. The idea of him and his entire party surviving a sinking ship, with all of their gear intact and with them, was so ludicrous that it convinced him of the prophecy. And if that is why he was brought there, then hopefully it would be for the greater good (ie: holding the drow in check) as he couldn't see the bigger picture.

    The reason you saved the city according to the prophecy is because there was a prophecy that you would save this city according to the prophecy, which motivated you to save the city according to the prophecy as was prophecied by the prophecy that you would save the city. I like it. :)
  • StefanOStefanO Member Posts: 346
    The paladin isn't send on a quest assigned by his temple in some greater good scenario. His quest was simple: Free Imoen. After that his mission is to get their souls back. Being a paladin means this quest comes first. He will do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I think the main thing to consider here is actually "lawful" rather than "good". A lawful character isn't going to be very keen on lying and deviousness. They should either a) attack on sight or; b) having agreed to aid one party, see it thorough. They are also going to take into account who has the most legitimate claim, and would tend not to support rebel groups unless their leader has a clearly stronger claim under local law.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Fardragon said:

    I think the main thing to consider here is actually "lawful" rather than "good". A lawful character isn't going to be very keen on lying and deviousness. They should either a) attack on sight or; b) having agreed to aid one party, see it thorough. They are also going to take into account who has the most legitimate claim, and would tend not to support rebel groups unless their leader has a clearly stronger claim under local law.

    Eh. A lawful good character would not kill an Umberlee witch he was contracted to kill, upon discovering said witch is a 16 year old who have done no harm* other than avenging the murder of her mother.

    *Other than the kind of innuendo of poisoning the fields and turning spousing against each other with foul sorcery and forcing poor old half-crazy Bill to attempt to mate with his livestock (yeah, he was under a 'spell') that farmers always fabricate because they are 1) inbreed 2) ignorant 3) vicious.
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    Happily in D&D there is absolute evil which has no moral grey area and can be clearly defined by race. Paladins are also given the god granted ability to detect this evil and the holy duty to wipe it out.

    Weaken the evil forces as much as possible then kill em all - including the drow. Praise be to Helm!
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,174
    Much depends on whether evil is indeed an absolute to Paladins, or if they can sense relative degrees of evil. There is also the question of items or spells which could deceive their ability. It would be interesting if the Paladins of different deities got different 'readings' as well...
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    moody_mage said:

    Weaken the evil forces as much as possible then kill em all - including the drow. Praise be to Helm!

    But, Helm is (Lawful) Neutral.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    I suppose if I could ever get into playing a paladin I might could answer but I just can't bring myslef to go down that road. Regardless it might be tinged I think on what deity he followed and how open they were.

    Is he the zealot type or the one that would go around to all the shark folks and start handin out tracts tryin to convert the poor misguided heretics. :)
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