I actually like the various origins in Dragon Age, because they give the rest of the game unique context and I appreciate that as an actor.
I agree that it's disappointing how little effect it has on the rest of the game, though. It seems like they shot themselves in the foot by including four races with two genders, all of which had small to significant differences to be accounted for. Three satisfying, fully fleshed out origins with consequences would have maybe yielded better results for the rest of the game.
POE bothered me for the reasons you described, though; I liked having a background, but I didn't like that it had no story relevance.
Since you are all ignoring this part I have already pointed out twice in this thread:
THE TIMELINE DOESN'T ADD UP. CHARNAME ONLY LIVED A MAXIMUM OF TEN YEARS IN CANDLEKEEP, NOT TWENTY. THERE IS NO WAY GORION TOOK THEM IN AS A BABY.
The timeline is broken. It doesn't make sense. Bhaal died in 1358DR. Charname's mother died after him, presumably in the same year. BG starts in 1368DR. That is ten years, not twenty. TEN. The opening narration is WRONG.
Is that really this hard to understand, Jesus Christ.
The original game took place in 1368 DR, but Sarevok's Diary had entries from 1370 DR. And when did Quayle find time to raise Aerie?
The timelines in Baldur's Gate are "a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey... stuff"
So...we can all just headcanon whatever we want then because it's all a mish-mash?
Although this does give me trouble thinking about the influence 20 (or 10) years in Candlekeep would have on an impressionable young elf.
1. Either he was and is immature if he's JUST 20 (or 10) years old. "Elves aren't adults for a hundred years" 2. Being the direct off-spring of a god meant he matured faster. 3. He...was young by Elf standards (call it 60 years) but was going to be sacrificed and is now 80 (or 70, or whatever) years, and he recalls an existence outside Candlekeep.
You know I was fine with Gorion's vague BG explanation that the PC's mother was a one-time lover of his who died during childbirth (which you can choose to believe or not - Gorion was an accomplished Harper, after all, and you didn't get to be one without telling a few lies) but it's the ToB Shade of Gorion explanation (that your mom was supposed to be a cultist blablablah) that really irks me.
Obviously there's some kind of weird retcon/story muddling happening there from a design perspective, but I still can't get over how much of an ass the Solar is for summoning the Shade of Gorion in the first place. "Here is the story of how close you were to being the brainswashed one... which is completely beyond your control and which is a concept you probably already understand since you're a Bhaalspawn and all and you're already getting pulled this way and that by outside forces all the time...." "Oops."
Since you are all ignoring this part I have already pointed out twice in this thread:
THE TIMELINE DOESN'T ADD UP. CHARNAME ONLY LIVED A MAXIMUM OF TEN YEARS IN CANDLEKEEP, NOT TWENTY. THERE IS NO WAY GORION TOOK THEM IN AS A BABY.
The timeline is broken. It doesn't make sense. Bhaal died in 1358DR. Charname's mother died after him, presumably in the same year. BG starts in 1368DR. That is ten years, not twenty. TEN. The opening narration is WRONG.
Is that really this hard to understand, Jesus Christ.
The timeline is broken precisely because CHARNAME is 20 years old and there isn't enough time for that. If the calendar was correct, the timeline wouldn't be broken. The question then simply becomes whether you decide the that the narration or the calendar is wrong - both arbitrary choices. However, in my mind it is much easier to accept that the writers simply didn't care two bits about getting the calendar right over them getting the basis for the CHARNAME character wrong or intending him to be running around a mere 10-ish years old in a grown man's body (frighteningly mature for his age). So I hold that it is the calendar that is wrong. You have to rationalize things either way, and that's what makes the most sense to me.
Once I've read that there are three types of rpg players : strategists (they like creating tactics and finding the most effective ways to defeat their opponents) storytellers ( who like a good story , no matter the character) and roleplayers (they like seeing the story through the eyes of their character).
Out of these three I would say I am mostly the first one I guess. So everything below here is of course based on that.
I actually never liked the BG1 CHARNAME story and choose to ignore it most of the times. Even if we ignore the obvious mistakes the writers did with the timeline (which I personally think is a viable sub-topic to talk about in a thread about origin stories) I've never liked to be "the one to rule them all". I much prefer being just a random dude with a story I can choose from a dialogue tree or from a couple of choices at character creation. The whole "You are born from the ONE TRUE GOD cascading his semen throughout ALL OF UNIVERSE into the GOD of OCEANS in the DISTANT galaxy of TIME ITSELF!!" background is just so exaggerated and boring. An average joe rising to the occasion is more up my alley. BUT I agree on that whatever background/origin story is chosen, the more it's integrated into the plot/side-quests/overall dialogues - the better. I don't at all think BG is better than other games on this though. Sure, some refer to you as the Gorion's ward and, later on, as the Bhaal spawn, but for the most times and most quests you are just another adventurer (which is the part of the games I like the best). I even think that for the first five times I played through BG1, I didn't even understand the story. I'm not the kind of guy that reads through all the books in-game, and to be frank, not even all the letters/diaries/pamflets/toilet-paper scribbles, so I missed out on much of the story that is narrated through that medium. I'm probably one of the most difficult player to write a game for since I am so poor at reading in-game material unless you 'force it' on me through dialogues, and they can't be too long or I will soon start to skip text as well, hehe.. So to summarize, BG1 is over-rated. I think other games has better origin stories, both the story itself and the way it is presented in the game(s). BG2 is better as a stand-alone game than as a continuation of BG1 (yes, heresy to many I guess) and ToB should be excluded all-together since it is a ridiculously megalomaniacal ending that is only interesting from a game-mechanic perspective and not at all from a story perspective.
(I wonder how many new enemies I will make with this opinion, hehe)
I agree with the OP that DA:O had too little effects from your choice of origin later in the game after the prologue. I played a couple of the origin stories (elf mage/dwarf noble/human noble IIRC) but also only played the whole game through once. That has little to do with the story though, for me it was just because I didn't enjoy the character creation part of that game as much as I like it in BG. Same with PoE, good game, decent enough CHARNAME (average joe rising to the occasion) but the actual game mechanics wasn't as intriguing for some reason.
I'm just gonna go ahead and post this now without re-reading what I wrote. It may be the ramblings of a madman, men nvm.
@Skatan I find that I agree with you on many counts. I love all infinity engine games, and I'm an avid book reader, but I feel games should not make you go through notes. It's not pleasant to read a LOT of text inside the game UI.
PS:T funnily does this better, despite being a very verbose game: you have plenty of dialogues, some very long, but some you have to read because they can change stats, lead to very different outcomes etc; some others instead can be skim-read initially, and only read in-depth later on - since you can talk with NPC about old stuff any time you want.
BG1 was poor in so many ways in hindsight, but it was still a great "mix" when it came out. And its success is proof of that.
You know I was fine with Gorion's vague BG explanation that the PC's mother was a one-time lover of his who died during childbirth (which you can choose to believe or not - Gorion was an accomplished Harper, after all, and you didn't get to be one without telling a few lies) but it's the ToB Shade of Gorion explanation (that your mom was supposed to be a cultist blablablah) that really irks me.
Obviously there's some kind of weird retcon/story muddling happening there from a design perspective, but I still can't get over how much of an ass the Solar is for summoning the Shade of Gorion in the first place. "Here is the story of how close you were to being the brainswashed one... which is completely beyond your control and which is a concept you probably already understand since you're a Bhaalspawn and all and you're already getting pulled this way and that by outside forces all the time...." "Oops."
I much prefer the TOB version that says my mother was not the victim of some rape but a fully functioning Bhaal Priestess with purpose of her own.
Might be misguided, but better than a hapless victim. And far better from my POV than the "former lover" needing to be rescued from her wrong choices/circumstances.
And it doesn't just illustrate how close you are to being "brainwashed". There's also the choice to honour your mother and her/Bhaal's plan. It's quite clear fom the voice acting in that segment that the mother still wants you to turn on Gorion or at least all the teaching, (brainwashing?), and help resurrect Bhaal.
"he killed me, he killed your mother" that's an appeal for revenge (OK, a slightly deluded cry for revenge considering you were about to be sacrificed by the cow, but nonetheless it's there).
Buttercheese, I really don't think anyone's derailed your thread. Everything seems to be pretty on-topid, unless I missed some deleted posts or something. I think this thread should cool off before someone says something that leads to mods having to close it...
However, in my opinion, I really enjoyed the way DA:O handled origin stories. In fact (brace yourselves) Dragon Age: Origins is my favourite game of all time, with Super Mario 64 coming in second, and Baldur's Gate in third. Sorry.
But, I never found it difficult to roleplay the origin stories in DA:O the same way I roleplay the single origin story in BG. Sometimes my dwarf commoner rogue is very contemplative of his situation, despite being in such dire straits. Another dwarf commoner rogue could be a totally mean-spirited individual, willing to do whatever it takes to get to the top. Both are the same race/class/origin, but very different characters, and I've never felt restricted in that sense.
The same could be said about the BG beginning. Maybe my halfling thief is more of a Robin Hood type, stealing only from those who he feels deserves it. Or maybe my halfling thief is a greedy little bugger, who wants everything for himself. Both characters could easily be roleplayed during the Candlekeep segment.
The same can be done for every class/race/origin (for DA:O) combination.
Now, when it comes to those origin stories coming into play later in the game, well, I think they pop up as much as they need to.
If you played a mage who grew up in the Circle, you can choose to completely avoid that part of the game if your character hated his life behind those walls, or maybe he/she wants to go back asap to see his/her friends/family, only to be met with a bunch of demons. Likewise, if you chose a dwarf noble, it makes a fairly big change to the Orzammar portion of the game. Characters that show up in the alienage portion recognize your character if you chose the city elf origin, and so on and so forth.
No, the origin stories don't really make a HUGE difference in the grand scheme of things, but they aren't meant to. Your character is taken from their old life and dropped right into the life of a Grey Warden. They, alongside Alistair, are tasked with forming an army to fight against hordes of darkspawn, and so I can't imagine the events of the origin stories would be on the forefront of their minds, regardless of who or what they were prior to being recruited as a warden. But there are a nice few throwbacks and mentions of it, such as characters from your origin story showing up in the trials leading up to the ashes of Andraste, or that dwarf in the Denerim marketplace who yells "FINE DWARVEN CRAFTS" in your ear every time you pass by - He was a major character in the dwarf noble origin, and actually alludes to the state of disrepair Orzammar is in before you ever go there, if you chat him up. This may ultimately persuade or dissuade a dwarven character from wanting to head back there, depending on what kind of person they are.
Now, I should mention that I may be a little bias in my defence of this game. I've played it through (along with Awakening) well over 30 times with a multitude of character types. I just love the game, way too much.
As for other games, I can't speak on them nearly as much. I've played DA2 only a couple times, and have yet to give Inquisition a shot. I will agree that DA2's origin story was far too restrictive. I remember feeling robbed when I found out I couldn't play as a dwarf.
I've also only recently started up my first playthrough of PoE. Until last month, I never had a computer capable of playing it (yes, it was an awful laptop, lmao), but I'm enjoying it so far. I will agree that the origins for characters seem a little off, but so far I'm loving my experience, and it hasn't really bothered me. I've managed to create a little backstory for my character in my head, with the chosen origin at the beginning as something of a rough outline.
But... Yeah. Sorry for the little tangent, but I certainly felt as though both DA:O and BG did the whole origin thing right (aside from a few plotholes in BG). If more games in the future take inspiration from them, then we as RPG fans are in for some real treats.
I'd say the real issue is the writing itself. If it doesn't feel alive, vivid, immediate, then no amount of backstories or levels of epicness will breath the life into that stillborn corpse. And, on the other hand, if it's bright and captivating, then it hardly matters whether you get to be picky about whom to be and what to do.
Comments
I agree that it's disappointing how little effect it has on the rest of the game, though. It seems like they shot themselves in the foot by including four races with two genders, all of which had small to significant differences to be accounted for. Three satisfying, fully fleshed out origins with consequences would have maybe yielded better results for the rest of the game.
POE bothered me for the reasons you described, though; I liked having a background, but I didn't like that it had no story relevance.
The timelines in Baldur's Gate are "a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey... stuff"
Although this does give me trouble thinking about the influence 20 (or 10) years in Candlekeep would have on an impressionable young elf.
1. Either he was and is immature if he's JUST 20 (or 10) years old. "Elves aren't adults for a hundred years"
2. Being the direct off-spring of a god meant he matured faster.
3. He...was young by Elf standards (call it 60 years) but was going to be sacrificed and is now 80 (or 70, or whatever) years, and he recalls an existence outside Candlekeep.
Obviously there's some kind of weird retcon/story muddling happening there from a design perspective, but I still can't get over how much of an ass the Solar is for summoning the Shade of Gorion in the first place.
"Here is the story of how close you were to being the brainswashed one... which is completely beyond your control and which is a concept you probably already understand since you're a Bhaalspawn and all and you're already getting pulled this way and that by outside forces all the time...."
"Oops."
I actually never liked the BG1 CHARNAME story and choose to ignore it most of the times. Even if we ignore the obvious mistakes the writers did with the timeline (which I personally think is a viable sub-topic to talk about in a thread about origin stories) I've never liked to be "the one to rule them all". I much prefer being just a random dude with a story I can choose from a dialogue tree or from a couple of choices at character creation. The whole "You are born from the ONE TRUE GOD cascading his semen throughout ALL OF UNIVERSE into the GOD of OCEANS in the DISTANT galaxy of TIME ITSELF!!" background is just so exaggerated and boring. An average joe rising to the occasion is more up my alley. BUT I agree on that whatever background/origin story is chosen, the more it's integrated into the plot/side-quests/overall dialogues - the better. I don't at all think BG is better than other games on this though. Sure, some refer to you as the Gorion's ward and, later on, as the Bhaal spawn, but for the most times and most quests you are just another adventurer (which is the part of the games I like the best). I even think that for the first five times I played through BG1, I didn't even understand the story. I'm not the kind of guy that reads through all the books in-game, and to be frank, not even all the letters/diaries/pamflets/toilet-paper scribbles, so I missed out on much of the story that is narrated through that medium. I'm probably one of the most difficult player to write a game for since I am so poor at reading in-game material unless you 'force it' on me through dialogues, and they can't be too long or I will soon start to skip text as well, hehe.. So to summarize, BG1 is over-rated. I think other games has better origin stories, both the story itself and the way it is presented in the game(s). BG2 is better as a stand-alone game than as a continuation of BG1 (yes, heresy to many I guess) and ToB should be excluded all-together since it is a ridiculously megalomaniacal ending that is only interesting from a game-mechanic perspective and not at all from a story perspective.
(I wonder how many new enemies I will make with this opinion, hehe)
I agree with the OP that DA:O had too little effects from your choice of origin later in the game after the prologue. I played a couple of the origin stories (elf mage/dwarf noble/human noble IIRC) but also only played the whole game through once. That has little to do with the story though, for me it was just because I didn't enjoy the character creation part of that game as much as I like it in BG. Same with PoE, good game, decent enough CHARNAME (average joe rising to the occasion) but the actual game mechanics wasn't as intriguing for some reason.
I'm just gonna go ahead and post this now without re-reading what I wrote. It may be the ramblings of a madman, men nvm.
PS:T funnily does this better, despite being a very verbose game: you have plenty of dialogues, some very long, but some you have to read because they can change stats, lead to very different outcomes etc; some others instead can be skim-read initially, and only read in-depth later on - since you can talk with NPC about old stuff any time you want.
BG1 was poor in so many ways in hindsight, but it was still a great "mix" when it came out. And its success is proof of that.
Might be misguided, but better than a hapless victim. And far better from my POV than the "former lover" needing to be rescued from her wrong choices/circumstances.
And it doesn't just illustrate how close you are to being "brainwashed". There's also the choice to honour your mother and her/Bhaal's plan. It's quite clear fom the voice acting in that segment that the mother still wants you to turn on Gorion or at least all the teaching, (brainwashing?), and help resurrect Bhaal.
"he killed me, he killed your mother" that's an appeal for revenge (OK, a slightly deluded cry for revenge considering you were about to be sacrificed by the cow, but nonetheless it's there).
However, in my opinion, I really enjoyed the way DA:O handled origin stories. In fact (brace yourselves) Dragon Age: Origins is my favourite game of all time, with Super Mario 64 coming in second, and Baldur's Gate in third. Sorry.
But, I never found it difficult to roleplay the origin stories in DA:O the same way I roleplay the single origin story in BG. Sometimes my dwarf commoner rogue is very contemplative of his situation, despite being in such dire straits. Another dwarf commoner rogue could be a totally mean-spirited individual, willing to do whatever it takes to get to the top. Both are the same race/class/origin, but very different characters, and I've never felt restricted in that sense.
The same could be said about the BG beginning. Maybe my halfling thief is more of a Robin Hood type, stealing only from those who he feels deserves it. Or maybe my halfling thief is a greedy little bugger, who wants everything for himself. Both characters could easily be roleplayed during the Candlekeep segment.
The same can be done for every class/race/origin (for DA:O) combination.
Now, when it comes to those origin stories coming into play later in the game, well, I think they pop up as much as they need to.
If you played a mage who grew up in the Circle, you can choose to completely avoid that part of the game if your character hated his life behind those walls, or maybe he/she wants to go back asap to see his/her friends/family, only to be met with a bunch of demons. Likewise, if you chose a dwarf noble, it makes a fairly big change to the Orzammar portion of the game. Characters that show up in the alienage portion recognize your character if you chose the city elf origin, and so on and so forth.
No, the origin stories don't really make a HUGE difference in the grand scheme of things, but they aren't meant to. Your character is taken from their old life and dropped right into the life of a Grey Warden. They, alongside Alistair, are tasked with forming an army to fight against hordes of darkspawn, and so I can't imagine the events of the origin stories would be on the forefront of their minds, regardless of who or what they were prior to being recruited as a warden. But there are a nice few throwbacks and mentions of it, such as characters from your origin story showing up in the trials leading up to the ashes of Andraste, or that dwarf in the Denerim marketplace who yells "FINE DWARVEN CRAFTS" in your ear every time you pass by - He was a major character in the dwarf noble origin, and actually alludes to the state of disrepair Orzammar is in before you ever go there, if you chat him up. This may ultimately persuade or dissuade a dwarven character from wanting to head back there, depending on what kind of person they are.
Now, I should mention that I may be a little bias in my defence of this game. I've played it through (along with Awakening) well over 30 times with a multitude of character types. I just love the game, way too much.
As for other games, I can't speak on them nearly as much. I've played DA2 only a couple times, and have yet to give Inquisition a shot. I will agree that DA2's origin story was far too restrictive. I remember feeling robbed when I found out I couldn't play as a dwarf.
I've also only recently started up my first playthrough of PoE. Until last month, I never had a computer capable of playing it (yes, it was an awful laptop, lmao), but I'm enjoying it so far. I will agree that the origins for characters seem a little off, but so far I'm loving my experience, and it hasn't really bothered me. I've managed to create a little backstory for my character in my head, with the chosen origin at the beginning as something of a rough outline.
But... Yeah. Sorry for the little tangent, but I certainly felt as though both DA:O and BG did the whole origin thing right (aside from a few plotholes in BG). If more games in the future take inspiration from them, then we as RPG fans are in for some real treats.