Transmuter/Cleric LoB SCS (Self buffing shapeshifter) Does it work?
comebackhome
Member Posts: 254
Hi friends,
In my latest play through I have been experimenting with a 8 transmuter using eekeeper/8 cleric for a self buffing shapeshifter using self poly morph and a combination of mage/clerics buffs. I am playing on LoB difficulty as a solo run + SCS. So far I have not been overly impressed. I have been using mainly Flind form for the +1 halberd and fire elemental damage to bypass stoneskin and interupt other spell casters. I have found that even with the buffs and the form it still seems weak to me. Maybe it's just a combination that is simply inefficient for LoB + SCS however I thought I would seek other peoples thoughts on this.
Other honourable mentions, mustard jelly for magic resistance vs spell casters and ogre beserker which seems to be hard hitting + high health however using just a regular mace - about to test if enchant weapon buffs up his weapon to be somewhat viable as I am currently unsure but I have a feeling that it wont work. Spider should be good once I get improved haste however at the moment feels squishy even with stoneskins.
Has anyone else had any experiences with this sort of concept? @CrevsDaak @semiticgod @Lord_Tansheron @Abi_Dalzim @Blackraven
On a side note, I have only just left irenicus dungeon hence 8 transmuter/8 cleric so it may be too early to tell but it feels quite weak in comparison to other classes.
In my latest play through I have been experimenting with a 8 transmuter using eekeeper/8 cleric for a self buffing shapeshifter using self poly morph and a combination of mage/clerics buffs. I am playing on LoB difficulty as a solo run + SCS. So far I have not been overly impressed. I have been using mainly Flind form for the +1 halberd and fire elemental damage to bypass stoneskin and interupt other spell casters. I have found that even with the buffs and the form it still seems weak to me. Maybe it's just a combination that is simply inefficient for LoB + SCS however I thought I would seek other peoples thoughts on this.
Other honourable mentions, mustard jelly for magic resistance vs spell casters and ogre beserker which seems to be hard hitting + high health however using just a regular mace - about to test if enchant weapon buffs up his weapon to be somewhat viable as I am currently unsure but I have a feeling that it wont work. Spider should be good once I get improved haste however at the moment feels squishy even with stoneskins.
Has anyone else had any experiences with this sort of concept? @CrevsDaak @semiticgod @Lord_Tansheron @Abi_Dalzim @Blackraven
On a side note, I have only just left irenicus dungeon hence 8 transmuter/8 cleric so it may be too early to tell but it feels quite weak in comparison to other classes.
4
Comments
Oke some thought:
(1) Cleric/Mage is a very good multiclass for the purpose of running a shapeshifter type character, thanks to the combination of arcane and divine buffs. Of course you can do some prebuffing before shifting, and you can also access new buffs via sequencers and contingencies while you're shapeshifted. (Improved) Haste, Blur, Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Holy Power, DUHM and Righteous Magic are all very good spells that you can use. If I'm not mistaken you'll have to access HP, DUHM and RM from a sequencer, because if you cast them before shifting, the stats of the shapeshift form will override the holy buffs.
(2) Note that thematically Transmuter is the best kit, but not being able to cast Abjuration spells is a disadvantage. The Abjuration school offers several so-called "combat protections": elemental protections that can be more or less duplicated via divine magic, but also spells like the Mantle spells and PfMW that have no divine equivalent. Besides, the "spell protections", spells that prevent enemies from removing your buffs, are also the domain of Abjuration magic: Spell Deflection and Turning spells, Spell Shield, Spell Immunity, Globes of Invulnerability etc. You don't want an enemy caster to remove all your buffs while shifted.
In my opinion a Gnome Cleric/Illusionist or a Keepered Cleric/Conjurer or Cleric/Invoker would be better shapeshifters, as they don't lose out on any essential protective spells.
(3) Remove Magic is your worst enemy. Every SCS mage casts it, and considering that you're a multi-class and also playing in LoB mode where enemies get 5 extra levels, every mage will be of a higher level than you are, despite the fact that you're soloing. So every Remove Magic is likely to get rid of most but not all of your buffs (not the Globes for instance) everytime it is cast at you.
You'd have to design a strategy where buffed summons soak up enemy debuffers, or buff your character lightly to provoke a Remove Magic, maybe even several times, retreat, and return fully buffed and shifted to deal with your foes.
(4) In order to benefit more from shifting, try to combine your buffing and shifting with disablers against your enemies. You say you find spider form squishy, but what if you cast a couple of Webs to hold your enemies, and a Spider Spawn to have some real spiders help you out? Mustard Jelly is great against Mages because of its magic resistance. You can slow an enemy mage and pass a disease while in jelly form, then shift to something faster, like the spider to deal quick damage.
(5) The Cloak of the Sewers can be obtained in the Athkatla sewers if you can kill a Rakshasa there. It offers a very nice Rat form that you can use to be 90% damage resistant, with the clerical spell Armor of Faith you can be more than 100% damage resistant, which is great against martial enemies. (Can be used for example to make a haste or a rage wear off).
Good luck, and if there's anything else that come to mind, I'll let you know. Maybe you can let us know here how you deal with the game's more challenging encounters. You have an unsual character concept, so it would be interesting to read about it.
This could be solved with dispell and magical weapon scrolls, but it is claimed this have been inabled with the latest patch (which is not for android, which is what I have).
Still, no harm in trying, right? Try putting DUHM and spiritual hammer in a sequencer. If it works, you will have a +2 weapon (at 8 lvl cleric) instead of shitty spider legs, and 18 str ( again at 8 lvl cleric) instead of shitty spider 16 str, and 4 APR to boost!
Thematically I would not use any priest specific abjuration spells...
Can you have both a continguincy and a minor sequencer active? Because, then you could polymorph into spider, trigger spritual hammer and DUHM stored in a the sequencer, and then, (once you are 18th level mage) as soon as you get wounded you will trigger tensers transformation.
So, at lvl 18 =
Spider (4 APR)
DUHM = 16+6 str = 22 str
Spiritual hammer = +3 dmg +3 THACO
Tensers = double HP, extra THACO (c:a +1/3 of what cleric already has) AND an extra +2 THAC0 and dmg.
Focken ouch! For the enemy that is...
Oh, oh, and if you can have also a normal sequencer on top (I dont think you can, however, but I could be wrong) you could also trigger haste, improved invisibility AND mirror image!
And stoneskin, of course, since it lasts 8 hours, can be cast prior to most battles, even those you are unprepared of.
You could prolly take a pure fighter head on with this combo...
Thac0 is more difficult to obtain.
You can have one of each of the sequencers and one of each of the contingencies active on your character. That opens opportunities.
2. In the Enhanced Edition after version 1.3, casting Spiritual Hammer or conjuring any other magical weapon while polymorphed will immediately return you to natural form. Before EE, the "spider gnome" trick could indeed allow characters with mage levels, like Jan or a Cleric/Illusionist, to attain 4 base APR in spider form with any weapon by using Shocking Grasp to replace the spider weapon and then discharging the Shocking Grasp weapon to open up your weapon slot. In EE 2.0 and on, however, this is no longer possible.
3. Despite this, Draw Upon Holy Might still works well with spider form, as a level 9 cleric can boost the spider form's base 16 Strength up to 19 Strength.
4. You can also rig contingencies to fire when enemies are sighted, which means you don't have to get hurt or attacked in order to trigger one.
Without the spider gnome trick, a cleric/mage of any kind will struggle to take down enemies in LoB mode. Summoned critters will be much stronger than the cleric/mage him or herself. Naturally, this will change once you get Shapechange and therefore mind flayer form, but that will take 6 million XP and the Shapechange scroll is only available after the Underdark.
If you have Spell Revisions installed, Holy Power and Tenser's Transformation can add +1 APR (though they won't stack with each other) and significantly improve your cleric/mage's damage output. There are also mod items that grant extra APR, and the Holy Strategist of the Red Knight cleric kit is supposed to get a permanent +1 APR at level 13.
@Blackraven: Enemies in LoB mode actually get +12 levels, not +5. +12 levels, +1 APR, +5 saves, and triple HP +80 on top.
In the Forgotten Realms, a whole bunch of clerics can use bladed and pointy weapons. See almost any pnp cleric publication since the late 1990s. In generic pnp games they can't, however, and the BG games implemented the vanilla rules instead of the FR setting rules.
Cleric
The Cleric is a generic priest (of any mythos) who tends to the spiritual needs of a community. He is both protector and healer. He is not purely defensive, however. When evil threatens, the Cleric is well suited to seek it out on its own ground and destroy it. The opposite is true of evil Clerics as well, and there are also many variations in between.
Class Features:
May wear any armor.
May only use non-bladed, non-piercing weapons (war hammer, club, flail, mace, quarterstaff, sling).
May only become Proficient (one slot) in any weapon class.
May only become Proficient in any fighting style.
May Turn Undead.
May cast priest spells.
Hit Die: d8
As for Flame Blade and Seeking sword. They do fire damage or magic damage. Hence wy they only get bonuses to attack and not damage.
A cleric being able to use a flail, even while shapeshifted, is a bug in the game. Goes against the rules.
There is another one like that involving fighter\druids. Druids are not allowed to wear metal armour in the forgotten realms and they have to stick with the druidic weapons. Even if multiclassed with the fighter class, they can't use metal armour since it breaks their druidic oath. Breaking it would result in the druid losing all his spells and special abilities.
Seeking Sword deals 2d4 slashing damage.
You also conveniently seem to forget that clerics also have an exclusive spell which causes sharp blades to fly around them in a ring/globe. The rules have always been inconsistent and wishy-washy and are frequently broken without a care in the world.
My thoughts are is there any use for any other of the forms St my disposal. For example Ogre, I haven't found any use for that. Or any of the animal forms eg wolf and bear. Do these overlooked and underated forms have any use or are they just 'fillers'?
As for the other forms, Ogre can be useful for pure-class Transmuters (and other Mages) thanks to their 18/00 strength. You can use it for carrying loot or bashing locks when you don't have any Knock spells memorized. Also, an 18/00 STR Ogre's Thac0 is better than a 17 STR Flind's Thac0. But as a Cleric/Transmuter, your character already has many ways to reach 18/00 STR or better with divine spells. Besides, even if you weren't part cleric, neutral/good aligned Charnames can use their innate Bhaal DUHM to gain serious Thac0 and damage boosts. One last perk of the Ogre is that it deals crushing damage rather than piercing/slashing. Situationally handy because there are almost no enemies with crushing resistances, but quite a lot of enemies with piercing/slashing resistances. The Flind's extra APR, extra fire damage, and the fact that its weapon strikes as a +3 weapon are all points in favor of the Flind though.
Regarding the animal forms, I agree you'll have to be very creative to get some use out of them.
Wolf has 100% cold resistance and 50% electrical resistance. This may be useful on rare occasions, though your Cleric side already provides spells for that. Again this is more useful for straight Transmuters than for Cleric multis. (Looking at it this way, going straight Transmuter is probably the most fun for a shaeshifting oriented run, because no one seems to benefit as much from shapeshifting and polymorphing as a pure Transmuter.)
Bears indeed have nothing on Sword Spiders. In the original games, the shapeshifting form's CON overrode the PC's CON while shifted. So Bears with 18 CON had more HPs than Sword Spiders with 9 CON. In the Enhanced Edition shapeshifting doesn't affect CON, so the PC's CON determines HPs. Ergo, assuming you're plaing EE, there's no reason to use bears over spiders: Sword Spider gets more APR, slightly better AC, and its inferior STR can easily boosted as noted above.
Potions of Heroism + storm giant strength + haste seem to improve the damage and make it more viable. I just need to hold out until I can get tensers transformation + enchant weapon in a sequencer before I'll be able take on any significant enemies. On a side note taking on liches in scs as mustard jelly their summons rips me to shreds even with magic immunity.
(*Purple is the color you get when you mix Fireshield (Red) and Fireshield (Blue)).
By similar logic, Blade Barrier or Globe of Blades should also deal solid damage. Though if you're using those, I don't know why you wouldn't just use Sanctuary instead of rat form.