Which Kensai should I choose?

Sikorsky

I recently finish BG+SoD with Kensai that would be dualed to Mage in BG II, level 13th. In spite of popular opinions that pure Kensai isn't capable for whole saga, I think different, Kensai is seriously powerfull. This is how my charname looks like at the end of BGI and SoD:


The Kensai only problem is AC, which can be solved in a lot of ways. There are a lot of potions that lowers your AC. But battles were sometime that fast that nobody was able to hit me before being killed.
So.... by the experience I earned on that playthrough, I want to start over as a new Kensai, pure one. And there comes a question, I had two ideas, both not realy RP but I'm looking for a badass.
First: Evil Dwarf
Two weapon style ***
War Hammer *****
Battle Axe *****
Second: Evil Half-Orc
Two-Handed weapon style **
Quarterstaff *****

TheElf

Quarter staff master half-orcs are more rare and distinguished. ^^ And also surprisingly powerful, although you will hit a lull in BG2 for a while waiting for an awesome weapon.

fateless

The dwarf Loses a point of dex and gains some useful save bonuses... the half-orc can start with 19 strength but lacks the shorty saves...

I'd say if your going more for solo those saves might be a better idea. But if not that strength can be a nice little edition to have. I'm not even going to ask why the quarterstaff however.

Sikorsky

I don't mind that 1 DEX point for dwarf, what I like is 19 CON and saves. STR bonus don't interest me becouse in BGII I will put Crom Faeyr to left hand to stack all this kensai bonuses with STR bonus. With the Dwarf build I think I can get to 25 CON with Axe of the Unyielding in right hand (+1CON, +1AC). With CON that high + Axe of the Unyielding + Ring of Gaxx my regeneration will be solid.

Quarterstaff becouse Staff of the Ram +12, with Half-Orc strenght bonus and kensai bonuses it would deal superb damage. And you start BGI with 11-16 damage just in Candlekeep with weapon that won't broke.

I think the second one will be more powerfull sooner becouse of 1 wepone prof. But at the end Dwarf will be better in terms of power and vitality.

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Skatan

When dwarf is an option, always go dwarf.

An other option would be the knife-throwing kensai and if you go this route you will do primarely ranged damage after BG1 which makes saves and AC less relevant than a melee kensai, so it makes races more open for choice.

fateless

If the SoD dwarf helm carries over you might be able to get 25 con. Otherwise it maxes out a little lower and at an equal level to the HO doesn't actually lose out in the way of pure con compared to the Dwarf without that particular helmet. Only in the shorty saves. So I don't consider that much of a difference between them.

The Half Orc can 25 Strength without the Crom Faeyr. The Dwarf can't can only top out at 24. Assuming your willing to go evil in the Trials. (I've been told by a friend this may have changed because they removed a possible primary class stat point gain in hell in BG2EE that I haven't dealt with so it may be 24 and 23 respectively). Half-Orc comes out on top slightly if it can reach 25 strength naturally. If it can't. Then it's a wash between it and the Dwarf dual wielding Crom Faeyr. you can however get Crom Faeyr sooner than some of the stat increases involved in building up the HO however.

Con for the pair of them tops out at like 24 unless the helmet is one of the items that carries over(I'm not very familiar with which SoD items do) but they come out equal in this reguard except for the racial saves.

I only mention dex because early on... and perhaps later on where it might not mean as much. the HO will have the advantage in AC. Being able to be at the full 18Dex to start and I believe it's possible with the help of items for it to hit 21Dex which is the next AC point where the dwarf can't.

The HO will definitely show more of it's full power sooner as you said however. having less build up. Being able to start with 1 lower AC, a bit more hit and damage, and an all around increased crit range throughout the game.

Sikorsky

You say that there's no items with CON enhancment ib BGII besides Axe of the Unyielding?
BTW Kensai can't wear helmets.

TheElf

Does regen rate actually improve with higher con? And actually stack on top of ring of Gaxx? Have BG nerds tested this?

AndreaColombo

High CON does grant regeneration according to the Adventurer's Guide (p. 49), although only a score of 25 grants a noticeable regen rate imo (1 hp / 10 s).

Not sure whether it stacks with the Ring of Gaxx but I don't see why it wouldn't.

By the way, doesn't the Axe of the Unyielding also have a regeneration effect?

EDIT: Just checked; it does. Axe + Ring should get you 5 hp / round.

fateless

different regen forms should stack. the higher your con from 20-25 the faster the regen is but it is slower than other forms of regeneration. HIgh Con Regen is unlikely to be the winning factor in most fights. But it does somewhat mitigate the need to heal between them. The First Step of it for Dwarves and HO can be obtained as soon as you can get the book in BG1 so for some it's attainable pretty early. at least with a party.

There aren't a lot of +con items in either game and most of them use the same slot while some of them are also not available until somewhere in ToB. It's also a slot that you may want to use for other things than simply a single point of +con. 24-25 con gives you the same amount of hp as well. +7/level.

tbone1

Skatan said:

When dwarf is an option, always go dwarf.

And if you can't, go with an angry gnome.

fateless

tbone1 said:

Skatan said:

When dwarf is an option, always go dwarf.

And if you can't, go with an angry gnome.

An angry gnome is just a Halfling that is always throwing tantrums.

SomeSort

TheElf said:

Does regen rate actually improve with higher con? And actually stack on top of ring of Gaxx? Have BG nerds tested this?

Question #1: yes. (But it never really gets fast enough to be noticeable in battle, it's mostly just useful for topping you up to full when you rest or travel, which even 20 Constitution is fine for.)
Question #2: yes. (But if you already have Ring of Gaxx / Axe of the Unyielding, Con ain't going to be doing much extra for you. Even adding 25 Constitution on top of those two items only increases regen rate by 20%, and with 22 Con it's only a 10% boost.)
Question #3: yes. (Worth noting that stacking different regeneration rates was bugged in vanilla BG2, so this is an EE improvement.)

Zilber

Half orc walks faster, and has better dex, Dwarf has better saves.

Quarterstaff will have a very good speed with the two pips in 2handed (0)
Dual wield will do more damage, and axes can be thrown for missile damage

SomeSort

Zilber said:

Half orc walks faster, and has better dex, Dwarf has better saves.

Quarterstaff will have a very good speed with the two pips in 2handed (0)
Dual wield will do more damage, and axes can be thrown for missile damage

All races have the same base walking speed.

Sikorsky

He probably mistaken Half-Orc with Barbarian.

karl_maulder

I really, really like this idea, so much infact that i'm gonna steal it, and do my own evil Dwarf Kensai.

Sikorsky

@karl_maulderI I started new game today with dwarf. I gave him two pipes to two weapon fighting and one for axe and hammer. I clean two areas before Friendly arm, Larswood and then when level 4 was reached (lev.3 prof. goes to axe) I went to Beregost, buy some more throwing axes and march for Drizzt solo. I use the exploit and go not very close. Just to make gnolls attack Drizzt. Then I start counting hitpoints he get. When I felt he is near death I trigger the conversation and told him I would help the gnools, he start to cast healing spell first but I was lucky to hit him with my axe(need three atemps to do that). I killed Basillius and the spiders in Beregost and now I'm level 6 - two pips in axes and hammers and two in two weapon fighting. I have Bassilius hammer in off-hand and bouth axe +1 in Feldeposts for main-hand. I want to go solo for some time, maybe level 7 and then start to build my party for BG+SoD run:
Dorn
Viconia
Edwin
Beloth
Safana
In BG II I will replace Safana with Hexxat and Beloth with Korgan.

_Luke_

Try this build (human kensai):

• STR: 18/xx
  
• DEX: 18
  
• CON: 18
  
• INT: xx
  
• WIS: xx
  
• CHA: xx
  

Regarding fighting styles, put 2 pips in Single-Weapon Style (in order to have an additional boost of 2 to your AC). I know nobody chooses this style for fighters, but it can be an alternative.....

Sikorsky

I don't get it.... What's special about your build @Luke93 ? Why STR and CON aren't max-out?

_Luke_

Yeah, I'm sorry, you're right.... Thing is I didn't read carefully the OP (it seems you don't like RP but are just interested in powergaming.... Well, in this case you should obviously max-out STR and CON and try focusing on fighting with a one-handed weapon (you start the game with an AC of 2 plus the chance of inflicting a critical damage on an attack roll of 19......)

Zilber

SomeSort said:

Zilber said:

Half orc walks faster, and has better dex, Dwarf has better saves.

Quarterstaff will have a very good speed with the two pips in 2handed (0)
Dual wield will do more damage, and axes can be thrown for missile damage

All races have the same base walking speed.

Weird, I always felt I was waiting for Yeslick or Kagain too often. My memory may be confusing pnp with BG.

WarChiefZeke

First ever character I ever rolled in BG2- knowing nothing of 2nd edition, was a katana wielding kensai. I say do that. Now that theres enchanted katanas in the first game.

batoor

Dwarves win out over Half-orcs, because of the tomes and those unique saves..but until you get the tomes, I would say Half-orcs make the early part of bg a lot easier.

If only darkvision had some actual value in BG and NwN and day/night affected combat bonuses in some way in addition to exploration/roleplay...Man that would be huge for me.

Sikorsky

WarChiefZeke said:

First ever character I ever rolled in BG2- knowing nothing of 2nd edition, was a katana wielding kensai. I say do that. Now that theres enchanted katanas in the first game.

That was character I completed BG+SoD with, in Sod with Crimson katana he was pretty badass. Every hit was a hit and with 17-26 (base)damage it was amazing how fast enemies goes down. Can't wait for dual him to mage on 13th and experiense the Kansage power - I never really play it before.

fateless

I don't see how you think the tomes only work in the dwarves favour myself. Only the shorty saves really. The orc will either always be slightly better in strength and dex(granted dex means less unless you can hit that magical 21). Or in the case of some others gives you even more reason to hand over tomes to other characters to beef them up.

ThacoBell

Really Half-Orcs vs. Dwarves is really matter of whether one prefers offense or defense.

SomeSort

fateless said:

I don't see how you think the tomes only work in the dwarves favour myself. Only the shorty saves really. The orc will either always be slightly better in strength and dex(granted dex means less unless you can hit that magical 21). Or in the case of some others gives you even more reason to hand over tomes to other characters to beef them up.

If you compare a Half-Orc with 19 strength and 18 dex to a Dwarf with 18/01 strength and 17 dex, then before tomes the Half Orc will have +2 melee THACO, +4 melee damage, +280 carrying capacity, and +1 AC, while the Dwarf has +5 to saves vs. spells, death, and wands.

(Yes, the Dwarf can get better exceptional strength to help mitigate that disadvantage, but rolling specifically for better exceptional strength means accepting lower rolls, which just shifts that disadvantage elsewhere. It's useful to consider a worst-case scenario.)

If you compare those same two characters *AFTER* Tomes, the Half-Orc has +1 melee damage, +100 carrying capacity, and +1 ranged THACO (pointless here, since neither of these are throwing Kensai). The Dwarf still has that +5 save bonus vs. spells, death, and wands.

By using Tomes, the Half Orc loses 2 points of THACO, +3 damage, 180 pounds of carrying capacity, and 1 point of AC worth of relative advantage.

Would you trade +5 to saves for +2 to THACO, +4 to damage, and +1 to AC? Personally, I wouldn't, but its at least an interesting thing to consider. Would you trade +5 to saves for +1 to damage? No way in hell. The advantages the half-orc is left with after Tomes are dwarfed, (pun very much intended), by the value of those shorty saves.

SomeSort

ThacoBell said:

Really Half-Orcs vs. Dwarves is really matter of whether one prefers offense or defense.

In a world with Tomes, the Half Orc's offensive advantage over the Dwarf is about as minimal as you can get. The jump from 18/xx to 19 is massive. The jump from 19 to 20 is tiny. (Ditto that the jump from, say, 23 to 24 with all the strength bonuses from BG2/ToB.)

Likewise, on a melee Kensai there's no practical difference between 18 dex, 19 dex, and 20 dex. From a dexterity standpoint the best part of the Half-Orc, I suppose, is that a good-aligned version can give Lum's dex boost to someone else, (while a good-aligned Dwarf will want to keep it for himself to offset the -1 Dex penalty in Hell.)

For a Trilogy run, from a strict powergame perspective, Dwarves are pretty unambiguously better than Half-Orcs from Chapter 6 of BG1 through the end of ToB. (From a Roleplay standpoint, neither is better and you should play whichever sounds more fun. Personally, I hate the Half-Orc paperdoll, so I rarely play one. But then, I'm not a huge fan of the Dwarf or Gnome paperdoll either, so I wind up playing a ton of Halflings, even if that 17 strength is a huge handicap in a world with Tomes. It makes Halfling Barbarians hella good, though.)

Sikorsky

So I think I made the good decision with dwarf. Considering weapons that I have in mind it seems more powerfull.
Axe of the Unyielding +5dmg/+5Thac0 + Crom Faeyr +3dmg/+5Thac0
reg.3hp/round,
+1CON,
+1AC,
10% chance for instant kill,
+5 electrical damage,
STR 25,
Instantly slaying stone & clay golems, trolls and ettins.
-2 Thac0 for off-hand (style)

Staff of Ram = +12dmg/+12Thac0
+1d4 piercing,
15% chance opponent is knocked back and stunned,
+1dmg from style
19-20 crit chance

I think now the decision is even more obvious.