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Should Beamdog improve AI in BG:EE and BG2:EE up to SoD's level?

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2017
    Ultimately, we are all Neutral Evil
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited May 2017
    Aye
    I would be cool with that. It sounds similar to what I was suggesting in the first place. I didn't expect to be able to check a tick box and it would simply work. I know it would need to be installed. What I meant when I said it should be already installed with the game and all it would take is one click to enable it is that some popular mods would be included in the game download so all it would need to do is unpack it when you enabled it. Rather than having to download it. At the very least when you enable it, it automatically downloads it and starts the install process on it's own. I would like a simple one click executable for some of these mods that auto launches when you enable them. I hate playing 100 questions everytime I just want an entire mod to install. If SCS could be linked to the difficulty slider once it's installed that would erase the one hour setup annoyance. You could simply click it and it would do it's thing until it's done. If it takes a while that would be fine as long as I am not forced to sit through it for the 1000th time.

    There are way to many mods to do that for them all though which is why I suggested only doing it for very popular ones. However, if it auto downloads them when you enable the tick box it would probably be for the best. If that were not possible it wouldn't be the end of the world though. Most likely we will just have to keep doing things the way we have for the last 15 years or so because it's unlikely we will see anything like this happen.

    While it would take time and effort on beamdog's part to integrate a mod like SCS and tie it's options to the difficulty sliders, David W could improve the SCS install process on his own if his installer asked what you would like to do with all selectable options.
    What would you like to do?
    1. install everything.
    what would you like to do with user options?
    1. install the hardest option for everything.(not recommended)
    finished!
    lol, my dream installer.

    It's been a while since I have been to the SCS forums. I had seen you there posting before. Has he given anyone an ETA on the next version of SCS? For a while there I thought he was never going to show up again and we would be forced to use your quick fix forever.

    Post edited by the_sextein on
  • Ultimately, we are all Neutral Evil
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    Aye
    Well that gives me hope that things will improve in the future. What worries me is if David decides to give up support for SCS and Beamdog releases another mod breaking patch. Then what do we do? Quick fix it forever? If you hadn't jumped in and supplied us with a quick fix I have to wander how long it would have went on in limbo. If it doesn't work for a while people will eventually forget about it altogether. I mod games like Stalker but have never even tried messing with the infinity engine and honestly don't want to start now. I was just hoping for a little more official support for some of these mods so that never happens.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,194
    Aye

    Well that gives me hope that things will improve in the future. What worries me is if David decides to give up support for SCS and Beamdog releases another mod breaking patch. Then what do we do? Quick fix it forever? If you hadn't jumped in and supplied us with a quick fix I have to wander how long it would have went on in limbo. If it doesn't work for a while people will eventually forget about it altogether. I mod games like Stalker but have never even tried messing with the infinity engine and honestly don't want to start now. I was just hoping for a little more official support for some of these mods so that never happens.

    Same thing that usually happens with every community project when the creator decides to no longer offer their time to us for free - it's up for grabs for anyone else who wants to take over and offer their time to us for free instead. Most mods are already open-source collaborative efforts to begin with, so I'm sure that someone would step in and either become the next developer, or incorporate it into a new project. We don't really need official support for this, I don't think.

    Better modding implementation in general would be great, though. Mods add so much value to games these days, and for some people they are a big part of the buying decisions (I sure would buy SoD if it had SCS, for example).

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,300

    I sure would buy SoD if it had SCS, for example.

    If that's the case, then why not give it a go anyway? One slight issue with SoD in the unmodded game is that the AI is significantly different from BGEE, which I would imagine would make some players a bit uncomfortable. However, the SoD AI is much closer to SCS BGEE than the unmodded game, so I would guess you'll feel at home with it :).

    JuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,194
    Aye
    Grond0 said:

    If that's the case, then why not give it a go anyway? One slight issue with SoD in the unmodded game is that the AI is significantly different from BGEE, which I would imagine would make some players a bit uncomfortable. However, the SoD AI is much closer to SCS BGEE than the unmodded game, so I would guess you'll feel at home with it :).

    I have very little time and very specific tastes. Something closer to IWD than BG in its AI, despite some upgrades, is not enough for me to buy.

    If and when SCS becomes available for it, I'll be first in line.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,300


    I have very little time and very specific tastes. Something closer to IWD than BG in its AI, despite some upgrades, is not enough for me to buy.

    If and when SCS becomes available for it, I'll be first in line.

    That's fine, but I wouldn't want you to be misled into thinking the SoD AI is like IWD. As I said it has far more in common with SCS than the unmodded AI of BG (or IWD). So you will see a lot of special abilities used (archers using called shot, shadowdancers disappearing in front of your eyes etc) as well as potion use and a wider array of spells used more intelligently. You'll also be better prepared than many people for the new abilities some monsters have (like spiders using web tangle).

    I think the references to IWD AI you may have seen come from:
    - the follow-me behavior of enemies against invisibility (similar behavior has also been used in SCS, so should seem familiar to you).
    - the large-scale battles which are more a feature of IWD than BG. However, this is more about tweaking the game engine to allow these without slowing the game down, rather than adjusting the AI.

    [Deleted User]ThacoBellsemiticgodJuliusBorisov
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited May 2017
    Nay
    Voted no, because those who want to change the AI in their game have all the possibilities to configure the game to their liking by using existing mods.
    This gives any player the freedom of choice instead of letting beamdog devs make the decision for you of what to use and how.

    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    Nay
    Those who recognise the difference are those who are familiar with modded games.
    Those who want the feature in their game would install the mods that do it for them.
    Mods are far more configurable to make the game you like instead of letting the devs decide for you.

    You can have the features but you need not depend on beamdog to do it.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2017
    Ultimately, we are all Neutral Evil
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    Nay

    Voted no, because those who want to change the AI in their game have all the possibilities to configure the game to their liking by using existing mods.

    This is actually not true for IWDEE. BGEE and BG2EE can get the SCS treatment; SoD is already good. But IWDEE has pretty poor enemy AI, and no way to improve it. :( That's why I say, if Beamdog is going to do anything, they should start there.
    This topic was NOT about IWD but the BGs only. I answered to that topic, no need to call me a liar!

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,294
    Aye
    Don't worry; nobody's calling anyone a liar here. Just a misunderstanding.

    [Deleted User]
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,687

    Voted no, because those who want to change the AI in their game have all the possibilities to configure the game to their liking by using existing mods.

    This is actually not true for IWDEE. BGEE and BG2EE can get the SCS treatment; SoD is already good. But IWDEE has pretty poor enemy AI, and no way to improve it. :( That's why I say, if Beamdog is going to do anything, they should start there.
    This topic was NOT about IWD but the BGs only. I answered to that topic, no need to call me a liar!
    Please, remain respectful to other users.

    ThacoBellsemiticgod
  • InKalInKal Member Posts: 149
    Aye
    AYE

    In the current state of BG2EE 2.3, LoB is a joke really: all party members piling on hitpoint bloated mugger in Docks Districts like chopping wood with bare hands is fun? I don't think so...
    with untouched AI, LoB in BG2EE is pointless, heh, even insane is pointless (with "no damage incease" ticked on there is no difference at all between insane and core rules).

    IMO the best difficulties would be:

    1) Casual - wat, u casul?
    2) Easy - for ur waifu
    3) Core - for normals
    4) Hard - like SoD or vanilla
    5) Insane - like SoD or vanilla
    6) LoB - like SoD only

    Two options there: new rules appllied on diffs 4, 5, 6 OR only on 6. Second option is better imo, more SCS friendly and makes LoB somewhat unique.

    BG2 could be actually enhanced? ;PP

    PS. I'm playing BG2EE now and have recently completed Neera's quest. I enjoyed it very much actually (thx to some subtle haxxx Neera is a sorc in my game, thx again holy crap change the portrait change the class and suddenly you love the queen of schoolgirls hehhe) and I must say that Fadell Ironeye is my new hero, I like her even more than Korgan ;PP She should be a joinable NPC. She is imo one of the best post-doctors Bioware NPC. Oops, what I am saying?? hahah I mean Beamdog's NPC ;pp OMG! hahha sorry
    Beamdog npc of course, uffff.... was close.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,194
    Aye
    If you're complaining about BG2, the immediate question would be: why not mod it? SCS is by far the best out of the available AI options, and single-handedly catapults BG2 to the top of the list. Of course, you could be on mobile I guess?

    Do agree though that LoB alone is not enough, some sort of AI improvement is needed on top of numbers tweaks or it just feels awful (see IWD).

    tbone1
  • Ultimately, we are all Neutral Evil
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • TheMetaphysicianTheMetaphysician Member Posts: 76

    But IWDEE has pretty poor enemy AI, and no way to improve it. :( That's why I say, if Beamdog is going to do anything, they should start there.

    sarevok57 just released a big overhaul of IWDEE which included major creature and AI tweaks. I haven't tried it, but those who have say it increases the difficulty a lot. I'm excited at the possibility that it can come to serve as a kind of IWD SCS, just from reading the description.

    Unfortunately, his mod isn't Weidu compatible yet, and its compatibility with other mods has yet to be determined. Any help you skilled programmers can give him in making that happen would be a great service!

    Ardul
  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 514
    Aye
    LOB already changes the AI to what I like in difficulty but cant deal with the HP increase...wonder why they couldnt separate the two...

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,194
    Aye
    brunardo said:

    LOB already changes the AI to what I like in difficulty but cant deal with the HP increase...wonder why they couldnt separate the two...

    I was not aware LoB affected the AI. Is that a SoD-only feature?

    brunardo
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,019

    brunardo said:

    LOB already changes the AI to what I like in difficulty but cant deal with the HP increase...wonder why they couldnt separate the two...

    I was not aware LoB affected the AI. Is that a SoD-only feature?
    @Ardanis is is free to correct me on this but as I understand it the A.I is the same on Core upwards.

    JuliusBorisovThacoBell
  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
    edited May 2017
    elminster said:

    Ardanis is is free to correct me on this but as I understand it the A.I is the same on Core upwards.

    Pretty much, for 99,9% it's the same thing. There're a few occasional scripting tweaks on Core+ here and there for unique monsters, but I'd be reluctant to even consider them actual AI changes. More like customized ability improvements that can't automatically scale with difficulty slider like damage.

    JuliusBorisovArctodusmlneveseelminster
  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 514
    Aye
    I played a few runs on highest difficulty and one on LOB with a EEkeeper version of Drizzt was pretty hard...but noticed AI from enemies using much more kiting tactics and more potions for starters....cant say about BG2 as stopped after end of SOD

  • MadrictMadrict Member Posts: 141
    Aye
    Any improvements to BGEE and BG2EE AI would be amazing. SoD's new AI is great....would love to see those improvements across the series.

    ThacoBellSkatan
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