It works equally with any one-handed melee weapon, not just a sword.
Mind you, the consensus view is that it's a feeble skill, not worth a proficiency point.
On the other hand, that consensus view is somewhat exaggerated. For non-warrior classes limited to one proficiency point per weapon, who already have proficiency in whatever weapon(s) you intend for them to use, it might actually be more useful to award a point to Sword'n'Shield than to anything else, even though its benefit is small.
It works equally with any one-handed melee weapon, not just a sword.
Mind you, the consensus view is that it's a feeble skill, not worth a proficiency point.
On the other hand, that consensus view is somewhat exaggerated. For non-warrior classes limited to one proficiency point per weapon, who already have proficiency in whatever weapon(s) you intend for them to use, it might actually be more useful to award a point to Sword'n'Shield than to anything else, even though its benefit is small.
I'm trying out a fighter/cleric, and I want the extra protection of a shield.
Shirlds and armour are very badly implemented in dnd, the points don't help as well.
I am learning to mod at the moment, and start ambitiously. I want to have buclers give a +3 AC, med shields a +4, large shields a +6, but also a -1 and -3 movement penalty for med and large and casting tim -2 -4 -8. Crushing damage all reduced, slashing base damage all increased (slashes against unarmoured are horrifying). Armour would have DR and only a small AC difference. Leather armour -1 movement, +5%DR crush +5% slash. +1casting time Studded -1 movement, 1 dex penalty, 10% DR slash, 5% crush, 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC Hide -2 movement -2 dex penalty, 15% crush, 5% slash 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC Chain -2 movement, 2 dex penalty, 30% slash, 20% pierce, 10% crush (considered gambesoned) +4 casting time -2 AC Plate -3 movement, 3 dex penalty, 39% slash, 30% pierce, 15% crush, +6 casting time -3 AC
Arming swords -1AC Two handed swords -3 AC Staves and spears -3 AC Halberd -2 AC The rest no bonus
Weapon styles and proficiencies are where you learn to defend yourself:
Shield 1 -2AC +1 save vs spells Shield 2 -2AC +1 attack +2 save vs spells
1h1 -1 AC +1 attack 1h2 -2 AC +2 attack
2h -2AC +1 attack 2h -3AC +2 attack
2wf -1 AC, +1 main hand 2wf -1 AC, +2 main hand 2wf -2 AC, +2 main hand +1 off hand.
Weapon profs
2 -1 AC +1attack +1/2 apr 3 -2 AC +2 attack +2 damage +1/2 apr total 4 -3 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1/2 apr total 5 -4 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1 apr total
This is very basic, don't expect the mod within a few months.
Shirlds and armour are very badly implemented in dnd, the points don't help as well.
I am learning to mod at the moment, and start ambitiously. I want to have buclers give a +3 AC, med shields a +4, large shields a +6, but also a -1 and -3 movement penalty for med and large and casting tim -2 -4 -8. Crushing damage all reduced, slashing base damage all increased (slashes against unarmoured are horrifying). Armour would have DR and only a small AC difference. Leather armour -1 movement, +5%DR crush +5% slash. +1casting time Studded -1 movement, 1 dex penalty, 10% DR slash, 5% crush, 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC Hide -2 movement -2 dex penalty, 15% crush, 5% slash 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC Chain -2 movement, 2 dex penalty, 30% slash, 20% pierce, 10% crush (considered gambesoned) +4 casting time -2 AC Plate -3 movement, 3 dex penalty, 39% slash, 30% pierce, 15% crush, +6 casting time -3 AC
Arming swords -1AC Two handed swords -3 AC Staves and spears -3 AC Halberd -2 AC The rest no bonus
Weapon styles and proficiencies are where you learn to defend yourself:
Shield 1 -2AC +1 save vs spells Shield 2 -2AC +1 attack +2 save vs spells
1h1 -1 AC +1 attack 1h2 -2 AC +2 attack
2h -2AC +1 attack 2h -3AC +2 attack
2wf -1 AC, +1 main hand 2wf -1 AC, +2 main hand 2wf -2 AC, +2 main hand +1 off hand.
Weapon profs
2 -1 AC +1attack +1/2 apr 3 -2 AC +2 attack +2 damage +1/2 apr total 4 -3 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1/2 apr total 5 -4 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1 apr total
This is very basic, don't expect the mod within a few months.
Nice, good luck, I'm sure someone on here can either help you or point you in the right direction. I know absolutely nothing about modding, but from what it sounds like to me, is maybe you can go into a file somewhere and change some variables?
It works equally with any one-handed melee weapon, not just a sword.
Mind you, the consensus view is that it's a feeble skill, not worth a proficiency point.
On the other hand, that consensus view is somewhat exaggerated. For non-warrior classes limited to one proficiency point per weapon, who already have proficiency in whatever weapon(s) you intend for them to use, it might actually be more useful to award a point to Sword'n'Shield than to anything else, even though its benefit is small.
I'm trying out a fighter/cleric, and I want the extra protection of a shield.
You probably already know this, but you can use the shield even without the proficiency point. The benefits from adding pips to shield proficiency is rather meagre.
Shirlds and armour are very badly implemented in dnd, the points don't help as well.
I am learning to mod at the moment, and start ambitiously. I want to have buclers give a +3 AC, med shields a +4, large shields a +6, but also a -1 and -3 movement penalty for med and large and casting tim -2 -4 -8. Crushing damage all reduced, slashing base damage all increased (slashes against unarmoured are horrifying). Armour would have DR and only a small AC difference. Leather armour -1 movement, +5%DR crush +5% slash. +1casting time Studded -1 movement, 1 dex penalty, 10% DR slash, 5% crush, 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC Hide -2 movement -2 dex penalty, 15% crush, 5% slash 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC Chain -2 movement, 2 dex penalty, 30% slash, 20% pierce, 10% crush (considered gambesoned) +4 casting time -2 AC Plate -3 movement, 3 dex penalty, 39% slash, 30% pierce, 15% crush, +6 casting time -3 AC
Arming swords -1AC Two handed swords -3 AC Staves and spears -3 AC Halberd -2 AC The rest no bonus
Weapon styles and proficiencies are where you learn to defend yourself:
Shield 1 -2AC +1 save vs spells Shield 2 -2AC +1 attack +2 save vs spells
1h1 -1 AC +1 attack 1h2 -2 AC +2 attack
2h -2AC +1 attack 2h -3AC +2 attack
2wf -1 AC, +1 main hand 2wf -1 AC, +2 main hand 2wf -2 AC, +2 main hand +1 off hand.
Weapon profs
2 -1 AC +1attack +1/2 apr 3 -2 AC +2 attack +2 damage +1/2 apr total 4 -3 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1/2 apr total 5 -4 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1 apr total
This is very basic, don't expect the mod within a few months.
Nice, good luck, I'm sure someone on here can either help you or point you in the right direction. I know absolutely nothing about modding, but from what it sounds like to me, is maybe you can go into a file somewhere and change some variables?
There are quite a few manuals available already. I first want to know what I want to achieve before I start building. And I need to finish work on my kitchen, so it will take some time. Sorry for threadjacking, I'll make my own to not detour too much from the OP.
As stated, the +4 vs missiles is none too brilliant, if you have absolutely nothing else, it is worth considering.
Generally speaking, sword-and-shield proficiency isn't worth it, but if you are limited in how many pips you can put into a proficiency, it can be useful. It's even more useful if your dexterity does nothing for your AC. And there ARE some useful shields in BG2, like Shield of Harmony, Mirror Shield (or Shield of Reflection, can't remember which), and Balduran's Shield.
Generally speaking, sword-and-shield proficiency isn't worth it
It's worth it just fine if you want to, you know, wield a one-handed weapon and a shield. Multiclass fighters get a total of 12 pips in any weapon proficiency. A fighter multiclass is only going to get 2 pips ("Specialized") in any given proficiency, of course. (That's equivalent to Paladins & Rangers in BG1 & 2.) +2/+4 AC vs. missile weapons is perfectly in line with how shields actually work in AD&D2. If you're going to use shields and you want a benefit (beyond the benefit granted by a shield itself), then it's actually useful. Do the other proficiencies "feel" better? Yes. But let's be realistic here; none of the weapon styles are stellar. And they're not supposed to be. Weapon styles add bonuses on top of whatever weapon proficiencies you have, and on top of the actual benefit of using a weapon.
A large shield already gives (unenchanted) a -1 Armor bonus, Piercing modifier of -1 additional bonus, & a Missile modifier of -1 additional bonus. A medium shield gives a -1 Armor bonus. Get a +2 large shield, and you're golden. Even better if you get a magic item like Darksteel Shield, Dragon Scale Shield, Fortress Shield, or Shield of Balduran (arguably the best shield in BG2). So, add that +2/+4 bonus against missles from Sword and Shield style, now you're basically never going to get hit by missile attacks.
I agree that the benefit against missiles can be useful. That's particularly the case if you want to play SoD on high difficulty - even with equipment giving you significant protection against missiles a high-level kitted archer targeting you with called shots is no joke ...
Having never really played this game before, I went through to level 5-6, then started over - now that I understand this game better and how to play it.
I did something that many might disagree with, but I started a solo playthrough on multiplayer and created all 6 characters (yes, I know, we don't need 6 characters) then transferred that save to single player - I hated having to start building a character (NPC) just to have issues with alignment, or having them not how I would build them on my own. Basically limited to how they were created, so I did it myself.
I also have EE Keeper, but only to be able to change things as I go as I test out different styles of play, I'm not adding things to make the game easy, only to edit proficiency points (taking away points as I add to another skill, changing from one to the other) and things like this.
I am enjoying this playthrough so much more than my first, adding NPC companions sometimes, but mostly just to steal their items. I know, I am taking away from the game some by not allowing myself to have the NPC's in my party, but I enjoy it much more, at least on my first playthrough, using my created characters.
I plan on importing them into BG2 EE after this playthrough, through the same method, though I can see how that would make me way overpowered, maybe not all of them, we'll see.
My characters:
Half-Orc Fighter Long Sword Two-Weapon Style
Half-Elf Multi-Class: Fighter/Mage/Thief Long Sword Sword & Shield Style
Dwarf Multi-Class: Fighter/Cleric Club Sword & Shield Style
Human Archer Long Sword Shortbow Single Weapon Style Two-Weapon Style
Half-Elf Multi-Class: Fighter/Mage/Cleric Mace Sling Single Weapon Style
You're not taking too much away from BG1 with an all custom party. All the personality in the npcs is through a half dozen or so selection sounds. Its SoD and BG2 where the npcs are really fleshed out, and there you will be losing out on about 1/2 of the experience of playing these games.
You're not taking too much away from BG1 with an all custom party. All the personality in the npcs is through a half dozen or so selection sounds. Its SoD and BG2 where the npcs are really fleshed out, and there you will be losing out on about 1/2 of the experience of playing these games.
Ok, thanks, good to know. And yes, just playing to level 6 with some of the NPCs their repetitious talking got annoying.
I quite like the S&S proficiency option, esp. for rogues, thieves and bards both (other then blade) it helps mitigate the downside of the buckler enough to help a little. When rogues are scouting or singing, every little bit helps. With the new bucklers introduced by Rogue Rebalancing this is esp. true.
You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.
There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.
Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.
Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.
There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.
Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.
Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
Yes because you'll totally have all those items right away when it really matters...
You can't just look at everything in a vacuum. There's many points to consider, like opportunity cost and efficiency. Giving the Boots of Avoidance to my frontline means I can't give them to anyone else. That's not even considering the characters where you literally have no choice because they take SnS at level 1.
It's a good early game proficiency in a game where ranged attackers are basically the sole threat in the early game. End of story.
Generally speaking, sword-and-shield proficiency isn't worth it, but if you are limited in how many pips you can put into a proficiency, it can be useful. It's even more useful if your dexterity does nothing for your AC. And there ARE some useful shields in BG2, like Shield of Harmony, Mirror Shield (or Shield of Reflection, can't remember which), and Balduran's Shield.
Using Sword and Shield Style with the Reflection Shield is kind of pointless, since the Reflection Shield already makes you completely invulnerable against missiles.
There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.
Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.
Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
1. S/S proficiency stacks with all of those other items that grant bonuses to AC vs. missiles! This is good because... 2. AC benefits from accelerating returns. The more of it you have, the more useful each additional point becomes up to the point where enemies can only hit you on a crit, which... 3. won't be for a long time in BG1, where archery rules all, and even if you get there eventually... 4. will require a lot of gear to do so, and having the S/S bonus frees you to pass some of that superfluous gear on to someone else in your party, letting you... 5. make more people highly resistant to missile attacks at the same time, which is good because... 6. one of the biggest dangers of ranged attackers is their ability to freely bypass your front line to target your middle or back line.
The Large Shield +1 / +4 vs. Missiles is a good shield, right? Sword and Shield style turns a generic +1 Small Shield into the functional equivalent. (Or it turns the actual Large Shield +1 / +4 vs. Missiles into a Large Shield +1 / +8 vs. Missiles.)
Cloak of Displacement is one of the best cloaks in the game, right? Probably the second best after Cloak of Balduran? Cool, because S/S style is basically a Cloak of Displacement that doesn't take up an equipment slot and doesn't give you a bonus to your save vs. Death/Breath/Wands.
You know what ambush has killed more of my characters than every other ambush combined? That stupid bandit archer ambush. Who are the most annoying Kobolds and Hobgoblins? The stupid archers. Ranged attackers are one of the biggest threats on the block in the early game, before you have all that spiffy gear to protect from them. And even in the late game, a poorly-timed Arrow of Biting will still wreck your day.
+4 AC vs. missile attacks is such a desirable trait from gear. I can't for the life of me understand why people are so convinced it's a useless trait from proficiencies. Not as sexy as an extra APR from dual-wielding, but especially in BG1 it seems like it's at least as useful as the expanded crit range on 2-handed weapon style.
In BG2, sure, it's useless. Missile weapons suck, few dangerous enemies use them, you already have a big enough pool of HP to shrug off a stray hit even to your squishiest members, and stuff like the Reflection Shield and Fortress Shield are already overkill on the missile defense front. Though by BG2 you'll have so many proficiency points to burn that you're likely to run out of other viable places to spend them, anyway, in which case... hey, free AC.
It's not only about effectiveness, it's also about RP.
If I have a fighter using a shield, I want them to be considered proficient with it. It helps with creating the flavour of and the role for that NPC/charname.
It's probably very silly, but without at least one pip in whatever it is I'm happening to equip somebody with, I always feel they might just drop it.
If I have a fighter using a shield, I want them to be considered proficient with it. It helps with creating the flavour of and the role for that NPC/charname.
That's a perfectly comprehensible RP reason, and RP trumps all. Nothing silly about it.
It's not only about effectiveness, it's also about RP.
If I have a fighter using a shield, I want them to be considered proficient with it. It helps with creating the flavour of and the role for that NPC/charname.
It's probably very silly, but without at least one pip in whatever it is I'm happening to equip somebody with, I always feel they might just drop it.
Plus the word "style" is right there in the name and really who doesn't want to fight with style?
If I have a fighter using a shield, I want them to be considered proficient with it. It helps with creating the flavour of and the role for that NPC/charname.
That's a perfectly comprehensible RP reason, and RP trumps all. Nothing silly about it.
It was more the idea that they just drop it that was a bit silly. Can you imagine?
Yo, Sarevok, I've got this shiny new shield and you can't hit me...oops...hang on a mo...I'll be right there...just talk amongst yourselves...
Well, I'd like to have spiked bucklers and small shields, that could be tied in with the S&SH style, like ol school used to have. It would have the option to use it for defense or offense in any given round.
You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.
There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.
Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.
Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
Yes because you'll totally have all those items right away when it really matters...
You can't just look at everything in a vacuum. There's many points to consider, like opportunity cost and efficiency. Giving the Boots of Avoidance to my frontline means I can't give them to anyone else. That's not even considering the characters where you literally have no choice because they take SnS at level 1.
It's a good early game proficiency in a game where ranged attackers are basically the sole threat in the early game. End of story.
These arguments can be said about anything like + to saves, resistances etc. You never start with anything at level 1, you always have to acquire it during the course of the game of course.
My point is, which I thought was obvious, that you can hit pretty much maximum negative AC vs missiles on your tank in BG1 without investing pips in the S&S style: Base AC 0 from full plate -3 from Full plate bonus -3 from girdle -5 from boots -4 from cloak -3/4 from DEX -1/5 from shield
Even assuming you do not have full platemail still make it fairly easy to make missiles a nuisance. There's even enough items to spread to two tanks so they get around -10 each just from items and with good positioning of the rest if the party that's really what you need.
Also, I in BG1 you don't have that many pips and I would personally much rather have a weapon for switch then a few AC more from wasting pips in S&S style. Hey, why not put those points into a ranged weapon yourself and unleash hell on your enemy instead?
I totally agree on putting pips for RP reasons though, that and for characters like druid or clerics who eventually run out of things to put points into anyways.
1. S/S proficiency stacks with all of those other items that grant bonuses to AC vs. missiles! This is good because... 2. AC benefits from accelerating returns. The more of it you have, the more useful each additional point becomes up to the point where enemies can only hit you on a crit, which... 3. won't be for a long time in BG1, where archery rules all, and even if you get there eventually... 4. will require a lot of gear to do so, and having the S/S bonus frees you to pass some of that superfluous gear on to someone else in your party, letting you... 5. make more people highly resistant to missile attacks at the same time, which is good because... 6. one of the biggest dangers of ranged attackers is their ability to freely bypass your front line to target your middle or back line.
+4 AC vs. missile attacks is such a desirable trait from gear. I can't for the life of me understand why people are so convinced it's a useless trait from proficiencies. Not as sexy as an extra APR from dual-wielding, but especially in BG1 it seems like it's at least as useful as the expanded crit range on 2-handed weapon style.
I agree with points 2-6 but as I stated above I don't think the pips in S&S is worth it since even if they stack it's quite easy (compared to ie reaching negative saves) to reach max or close to max AC bonus vs missiles without the pips making BG1 encounters vs ranged quite relaxed. Most characters except fighters get quite few pips and putting one or two in S&S style during BG1 will probably limit your weapon choices a lot. It all depends on the character of course.
And just to make this clear, I don't think pips in S&S is useless, I think it's pointless.
Using Sword and Shield Style with the Reflection Shield is kind of pointless, since the Reflection Shield already makes you completely invulnerable against missiles.
Okay, I must have misremembered again. Isn't there a shield that reflects electricity back at the caster? Or is it not a shield?
Using Sword and Shield Style with the Reflection Shield is kind of pointless, since the Reflection Shield already makes you completely invulnerable against missiles.
Okay, I must have misremembered again. Isn't there a shield that reflects electricity back at the caster? Or is it not a shield?
@tbone1 I blieve your thinking of the CLOAK of reflection, for the electrics.
The problem is this: 5 Kobolds times 2 attacks per round times 0.05 crit chance = 1 person hit every 2 rounds on average for at least 1-6 damage(which might be a third of all your HP at that point), double that if you don't have a helmet. And that will always happen, whether your AC is 0 or -20.
Sword and Shield Style is a absolutely a waste of pips, because it was never the AC that was the problem.
You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.
There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.
Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.
Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
Yes because you'll totally have all those items right away when it really matters...
You can't just look at everything in a vacuum. There's many points to consider, like opportunity cost and efficiency. Giving the Boots of Avoidance to my frontline means I can't give them to anyone else. That's not even considering the characters where you literally have no choice because they take SnS at level 1.
It's a good early game proficiency in a game where ranged attackers are basically the sole threat in the early game. End of story.
These arguments can be said about anything like + to saves, resistances etc. You never start with anything at level 1, you always have to acquire it during the course of the game of course.
My point is, which I thought was obvious, that you can hit pretty much maximum negative AC vs missiles on your tank in BG1 without investing pips in the S&S style: Base AC 0 from full plate -3 from Full plate bonus -3 from girdle -5 from boots -4 from cloak -3/4 from DEX -1/5 from shield
Even assuming you do not have full platemail still make it fairly easy to make missiles a nuisance. There's even enough items to spread to two tanks so they get around -10 each just from items and with good positioning of the rest if the party that's really what you need.
Also, I in BG1 you don't have that many pips and I would personally much rather have a weapon for switch then a few AC more from wasting pips in S&S style. Hey, why not put those points into a ranged weapon yourself and unleash hell on your enemy instead?
I totally agree on putting pips for RP reasons though, that and for characters like druid or clerics who eventually run out of things to put points into anyways.
1. S/S proficiency stacks with all of those other items that grant bonuses to AC vs. missiles! This is good because... 2. AC benefits from accelerating returns. The more of it you have, the more useful each additional point becomes up to the point where enemies can only hit you on a crit, which... 3. won't be for a long time in BG1, where archery rules all, and even if you get there eventually... 4. will require a lot of gear to do so, and having the S/S bonus frees you to pass some of that superfluous gear on to someone else in your party, letting you... 5. make more people highly resistant to missile attacks at the same time, which is good because... 6. one of the biggest dangers of ranged attackers is their ability to freely bypass your front line to target your middle or back line.
+4 AC vs. missile attacks is such a desirable trait from gear. I can't for the life of me understand why people are so convinced it's a useless trait from proficiencies. Not as sexy as an extra APR from dual-wielding, but especially in BG1 it seems like it's at least as useful as the expanded crit range on 2-handed weapon style.
I agree with points 2-6 but as I stated above I don't think the pips in S&S is worth it since even if they stack it's quite easy (compared to ie reaching negative saves) to reach max or close to max AC bonus vs missiles without the pips making BG1 encounters vs ranged quite relaxed. Most characters except fighters get quite few pips and putting one or two in S&S style during BG1 will probably limit your weapon choices a lot. It all depends on the character of course.
And just to make this clear, I don't think pips in S&S is useless, I think it's pointless.
You're not gonna be able to get that on all your partymembers though. Part of the points above, is that taking a point or in SS can help spread these more evenly around that party.
You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.
There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.
Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.
Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
Yes because you'll totally have all those items right away when it really matters...
You can't just look at everything in a vacuum. There's many points to consider, like opportunity cost and efficiency. Giving the Boots of Avoidance to my frontline means I can't give them to anyone else. That's not even considering the characters where you literally have no choice because they take SnS at level 1.
It's a good early game proficiency in a game where ranged attackers are basically the sole threat in the early game. End of story.
These arguments can be said about anything like + to saves, resistances etc. You never start with anything at level 1, you always have to acquire it during the course of the game of course.
Well, there is *one* thing you start with at level 1.
Sword and Shield style.
That's kind of the point.
And just to make this clear, I don't think pips in S&S is useless, I think it's pointless.
If S&S has a use, then the point of S&S is to benefit from that use.
The problem is this: 5 Kobolds times 2 attacks per round times 0.05 crit chance = 1 person hit every 2 rounds on average for at least 1-6 damage(which might be a third of all your HP at that point), double that if you don't have a helmet. And that will always happen, whether your AC is 0 or -20.
Sword and Shield Style is a absolutely a waste of pips, because it was never the AC that was the problem.
I have been hit by enemy archers on non-critical rolls before. If an enemy archer can only hit me on a roll of 18, 19, or 20, then investing a pip in S&S style reduces incoming damage by 66%, which is a heck of a lot of damage reduction. (Assuming you have a helm, of course; it's 50% if you don't have a helm.)
I could just as easily say points in a second weapon are absolutely a waste of pips. Unless my dude is dual-wielding, (and the mere fact that we're talking about Sword and Shield style establishes that he's not), I can only wield one weapon at once. So I either put pips in a second weapon that are literally giving me zero benefits because I don't have that weapon type equipped, or else I put pips in S&S style which are giving me non-zero benefit.
Sure, I could invest in a ranged weapon and switch... but my front-line tanks aren't going to switch to ranged. The whole point of a front-line tank is to draw enemy attacks. If your tank is firing a bow, he is tanking wrong.
Comments
Mind you, the consensus view is that it's a feeble skill, not worth a proficiency point.
On the other hand, that consensus view is somewhat exaggerated. For non-warrior classes limited to one proficiency point per weapon, who already have proficiency in whatever weapon(s) you intend for them to use, it might actually be more useful to award a point to Sword'n'Shield than to anything else, even though its benefit is small.
I am learning to mod at the moment, and start ambitiously.
I want to have buclers give a +3 AC, med shields a +4, large shields a +6, but also a -1 and -3 movement penalty for med and large and casting tim -2 -4 -8.
Crushing damage all reduced, slashing base damage all increased (slashes against unarmoured are horrifying).
Armour would have DR and only a small AC difference.
Leather armour -1 movement, +5%DR crush +5% slash. +1casting time
Studded -1 movement, 1 dex penalty, 10% DR slash, 5% crush, 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC
Hide -2 movement -2 dex penalty, 15% crush, 5% slash 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC
Chain -2 movement, 2 dex penalty, 30% slash, 20% pierce, 10% crush (considered gambesoned) +4 casting time -2 AC
Plate -3 movement, 3 dex penalty, 39% slash, 30% pierce, 15% crush, +6 casting time -3 AC
Arming swords -1AC
Two handed swords -3 AC
Staves and spears -3 AC
Halberd -2 AC
The rest no bonus
Weapon styles and proficiencies are where you learn to defend yourself:
Shield 1 -2AC +1 save vs spells
Shield 2 -2AC +1 attack +2 save vs spells
1h1 -1 AC +1 attack
1h2 -2 AC +2 attack
2h -2AC +1 attack
2h -3AC +2 attack
2wf -1 AC, +1 main hand
2wf -1 AC, +2 main hand
2wf -2 AC, +2 main hand +1 off hand.
Weapon profs
2 -1 AC +1attack +1/2 apr
3 -2 AC +2 attack +2 damage +1/2 apr total
4 -3 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1/2 apr total
5 -4 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1 apr total
This is very basic, don't expect the mod within a few months.
As stated, the +4 vs missiles is none too brilliant, if you have absolutely nothing else, it is worth considering.
It's worth it just fine if you want to, you know, wield a one-handed weapon and a shield. Multiclass fighters get a total of 12 pips in any weapon proficiency. A fighter multiclass is only going to get 2 pips ("Specialized") in any given proficiency, of course. (That's equivalent to Paladins & Rangers in BG1 & 2.) +2/+4 AC vs. missile weapons is perfectly in line with how shields actually work in AD&D2. If you're going to use shields and you want a benefit (beyond the benefit granted by a shield itself), then it's actually useful.
Do the other proficiencies "feel" better? Yes. But let's be realistic here; none of the weapon styles are stellar. And they're not supposed to be. Weapon styles add bonuses on top of whatever weapon proficiencies you have, and on top of the actual benefit of using a weapon.
A large shield already gives (unenchanted) a -1 Armor bonus, Piercing modifier of -1 additional bonus, & a Missile modifier of -1 additional bonus. A medium shield gives a -1 Armor bonus. Get a +2 large shield, and you're golden. Even better if you get a magic item like Darksteel Shield, Dragon Scale Shield, Fortress Shield, or Shield of Balduran (arguably the best shield in BG2). So, add that +2/+4 bonus against missles from Sword and Shield style, now you're basically never going to get hit by missile attacks.
I did something that many might disagree with, but I started a solo playthrough on multiplayer and created all 6 characters (yes, I know, we don't need 6 characters) then transferred that save to single player - I hated having to start building a character (NPC) just to have issues with alignment, or having them not how I would build them on my own. Basically limited to how they were created, so I did it myself.
I also have EE Keeper, but only to be able to change things as I go as I test out different styles of play, I'm not adding things to make the game easy, only to edit proficiency points (taking away points as I add to another skill, changing from one to the other) and things like this.
I am enjoying this playthrough so much more than my first, adding NPC companions sometimes, but mostly just to steal their items. I know, I am taking away from the game some by not allowing myself to have the NPC's in my party, but I enjoy it much more, at least on my first playthrough, using my created characters.
I plan on importing them into BG2 EE after this playthrough, through the same method, though I can see how that would make me way overpowered, maybe not all of them, we'll see.
My characters:
Half-Orc
Fighter
Long Sword
Two-Weapon Style
Half-Elf
Multi-Class: Fighter/Mage/Thief
Long Sword
Sword & Shield Style
Dwarf
Multi-Class: Fighter/Cleric
Club
Sword & Shield Style
Human
Archer
Long Sword
Shortbow
Single Weapon Style
Two-Weapon Style
Half-Elf
Multi-Class: Fighter/Mage/Cleric
Mace
Sling
Single Weapon Style
Half-Elf
Mage
Sling
Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.
Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
You can't just look at everything in a vacuum. There's many points to consider, like opportunity cost and efficiency. Giving the Boots of Avoidance to my frontline means I can't give them to anyone else. That's not even considering the characters where you literally have no choice because they take SnS at level 1.
It's a good early game proficiency in a game where ranged attackers are basically the sole threat in the early game. End of story.
2. AC benefits from accelerating returns. The more of it you have, the more useful each additional point becomes up to the point where enemies can only hit you on a crit, which...
3. won't be for a long time in BG1, where archery rules all, and even if you get there eventually...
4. will require a lot of gear to do so, and having the S/S bonus frees you to pass some of that superfluous gear on to someone else in your party, letting you...
5. make more people highly resistant to missile attacks at the same time, which is good because...
6. one of the biggest dangers of ranged attackers is their ability to freely bypass your front line to target your middle or back line.
The Large Shield +1 / +4 vs. Missiles is a good shield, right? Sword and Shield style turns a generic +1 Small Shield into the functional equivalent. (Or it turns the actual Large Shield +1 / +4 vs. Missiles into a Large Shield +1 / +8 vs. Missiles.)
Cloak of Displacement is one of the best cloaks in the game, right? Probably the second best after Cloak of Balduran? Cool, because S/S style is basically a Cloak of Displacement that doesn't take up an equipment slot and doesn't give you a bonus to your save vs. Death/Breath/Wands.
You know what ambush has killed more of my characters than every other ambush combined? That stupid bandit archer ambush. Who are the most annoying Kobolds and Hobgoblins? The stupid archers. Ranged attackers are one of the biggest threats on the block in the early game, before you have all that spiffy gear to protect from them. And even in the late game, a poorly-timed Arrow of Biting will still wreck your day.
+4 AC vs. missile attacks is such a desirable trait from gear. I can't for the life of me understand why people are so convinced it's a useless trait from proficiencies. Not as sexy as an extra APR from dual-wielding, but especially in BG1 it seems like it's at least as useful as the expanded crit range on 2-handed weapon style.
In BG2, sure, it's useless. Missile weapons suck, few dangerous enemies use them, you already have a big enough pool of HP to shrug off a stray hit even to your squishiest members, and stuff like the Reflection Shield and Fortress Shield are already overkill on the missile defense front. Though by BG2 you'll have so many proficiency points to burn that you're likely to run out of other viable places to spend them, anyway, in which case... hey, free AC.
If I have a fighter using a shield, I want them to be considered proficient with it. It helps with creating the flavour of and the role for that NPC/charname.
It's probably very silly, but without at least one pip in whatever it is I'm happening to equip somebody with, I always feel they might just drop it.
Can you imagine?
Yo, Sarevok, I've got this shiny new shield and you can't hit me...oops...hang on a mo...I'll be right there...just talk amongst yourselves...
My point is, which I thought was obvious, that you can hit pretty much maximum negative AC vs missiles on your tank in BG1 without investing pips in the S&S style:
Base AC 0 from full plate
-3 from Full plate bonus
-3 from girdle
-5 from boots
-4 from cloak
-3/4 from DEX
-1/5 from shield
Even assuming you do not have full platemail still make it fairly easy to make missiles a nuisance. There's even enough items to spread to two tanks so they get around -10 each just from items and with good positioning of the rest if the party that's really what you need.
Also, I in BG1 you don't have that many pips and I would personally much rather have a weapon for switch then a few AC more from wasting pips in S&S style. Hey, why not put those points into a ranged weapon yourself and unleash hell on your enemy instead?
I totally agree on putting pips for RP reasons though, that and for characters like druid or clerics who eventually run out of things to put points into anyways.
I agree with points 2-6 but as I stated above I don't think the pips in S&S is worth it since even if they stack it's quite easy (compared to ie reaching negative saves) to reach max or close to max AC bonus vs missiles without the pips making BG1 encounters vs ranged quite relaxed. Most characters except fighters get quite few pips and putting one or two in S&S style during BG1 will probably limit your weapon choices a lot. It all depends on the character of course.
And just to make this clear, I don't think pips in S&S is useless, I think it's pointless.
The problem is this: 5 Kobolds times 2 attacks per round times 0.05 crit chance = 1 person hit every 2 rounds on average for at least 1-6 damage(which might be a third of all your HP at that point), double that if you don't have a helmet. And that will always happen, whether your AC is 0 or -20.
Sword and Shield Style is a absolutely a waste of pips, because it was never the AC that was the problem.
Sword and Shield style.
That's kind of the point. If S&S has a use, then the point of S&S is to benefit from that use.
I could just as easily say points in a second weapon are absolutely a waste of pips. Unless my dude is dual-wielding, (and the mere fact that we're talking about Sword and Shield style establishes that he's not), I can only wield one weapon at once. So I either put pips in a second weapon that are literally giving me zero benefits because I don't have that weapon type equipped, or else I put pips in S&S style which are giving me non-zero benefit.
Sure, I could invest in a ranged weapon and switch... but my front-line tanks aren't going to switch to ranged. The whole point of a front-line tank is to draw enemy attacks. If your tank is firing a bow, he is tanking wrong.