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Quick question about Sword & Shield proficiency

For Sword & Shield proficiency do you have to use a sword? or can you use something else, like a club?
«1

Comments

  • PausePause Member Posts: 40

    It works equally with any one-handed melee weapon, not just a sword.

    Mind you, the consensus view is that it's a feeble skill, not worth a proficiency point.

    On the other hand, that consensus view is somewhat exaggerated. For non-warrior classes limited to one proficiency point per weapon, who already have proficiency in whatever weapon(s) you intend for them to use, it might actually be more useful to award a point to Sword'n'Shield than to anything else, even though its benefit is small.

    I'm trying out a fighter/cleric, and I want the extra protection of a shield.
    tbone1
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 222
    edited June 5
    Shirlds and armour are very badly implemented in dnd, the points don't help as well.

    I am learning to mod at the moment, and start ambitiously.
    I want to have buclers give a +3 AC, med shields a +4, large shields a +6, but also a -1 and -3 movement penalty for med and large and casting tim -2 -4 -8.
    Crushing damage all reduced, slashing base damage all increased (slashes against unarmoured are horrifying).
    Armour would have DR and only a small AC difference.
    Leather armour -1 movement, +5%DR crush +5% slash. +1casting time
    Studded -1 movement, 1 dex penalty, 10% DR slash, 5% crush, 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC
    Hide -2 movement -2 dex penalty, 15% crush, 5% slash 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC
    Chain -2 movement, 2 dex penalty, 30% slash, 20% pierce, 10% crush (considered gambesoned) +4 casting time -2 AC
    Plate -3 movement, 3 dex penalty, 39% slash, 30% pierce, 15% crush, +6 casting time -3 AC

    Arming swords -1AC
    Two handed swords -3 AC
    Staves and spears -3 AC
    Halberd -2 AC
    The rest no bonus

    Weapon styles and proficiencies are where you learn to defend yourself:

    Shield 1 -2AC +1 save vs spells
    Shield 2 -2AC +1 attack +2 save vs spells

    1h1 -1 AC +1 attack
    1h2 -2 AC +2 attack

    2h -2AC +1 attack
    2h -3AC +2 attack

    2wf -1 AC, +1 main hand
    2wf -1 AC, +2 main hand
    2wf -2 AC, +2 main hand +1 off hand.

    Weapon profs

    2 -1 AC +1attack +1/2 apr
    3 -2 AC +2 attack +2 damage +1/2 apr total
    4 -3 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1/2 apr total
    5 -4 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1 apr total

    This is very basic, don't expect the mod within a few months.
    Post edited by Zilber on
    PauseJuliusBorisovtbone1
  • PausePause Member Posts: 40
    Zilber said:

    Shirlds and armour are very badly implemented in dnd, the points don't help as well.

    I am learning to mod at the moment, and start ambitiously.
    I want to have buclers give a +3 AC, med shields a +4, large shields a +6, but also a -1 and -3 movement penalty for med and large and casting tim -2 -4 -8.
    Crushing damage all reduced, slashing base damage all increased (slashes against unarmoured are horrifying).
    Armour would have DR and only a small AC difference.
    Leather armour -1 movement, +5%DR crush +5% slash. +1casting time
    Studded -1 movement, 1 dex penalty, 10% DR slash, 5% crush, 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC
    Hide -2 movement -2 dex penalty, 15% crush, 5% slash 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC
    Chain -2 movement, 2 dex penalty, 30% slash, 20% pierce, 10% crush (considered gambesoned) +4 casting time -2 AC
    Plate -3 movement, 3 dex penalty, 39% slash, 30% pierce, 15% crush, +6 casting time -3 AC

    Arming swords -1AC
    Two handed swords -3 AC
    Staves and spears -3 AC
    Halberd -2 AC
    The rest no bonus

    Weapon styles and proficiencies are where you learn to defend yourself:

    Shield 1 -2AC +1 save vs spells
    Shield 2 -2AC +1 attack +2 save vs spells

    1h1 -1 AC +1 attack
    1h2 -2 AC +2 attack

    2h -2AC +1 attack
    2h -3AC +2 attack

    2wf -1 AC, +1 main hand
    2wf -1 AC, +2 main hand
    2wf -2 AC, +2 main hand +1 off hand.

    Weapon profs

    2 -1 AC +1attack +1/2 apr
    3 -2 AC +2 attack +2 damage +1/2 apr total
    4 -3 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1/2 apr total
    5 -4 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1 apr total

    This is very basic, don't expect the mod within a few months.

    Nice, good luck, I'm sure someone on here can either help you or point you in the right direction. I know absolutely nothing about modding, but from what it sounds like to me, is maybe you can go into a file somewhere and change some variables?
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,339
    Pause said:

    It works equally with any one-handed melee weapon, not just a sword.

    Mind you, the consensus view is that it's a feeble skill, not worth a proficiency point.

    On the other hand, that consensus view is somewhat exaggerated. For non-warrior classes limited to one proficiency point per weapon, who already have proficiency in whatever weapon(s) you intend for them to use, it might actually be more useful to award a point to Sword'n'Shield than to anything else, even though its benefit is small.

    I'm trying out a fighter/cleric, and I want the extra protection of a shield.
    You probably already know this, but you can use the shield even without the proficiency point. The benefits from adding pips to shield proficiency is rather meagre.
    JuliusBorisovPause
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 222
    Pause said:

    Zilber said:

    Shirlds and armour are very badly implemented in dnd, the points don't help as well.

    I am learning to mod at the moment, and start ambitiously.
    I want to have buclers give a +3 AC, med shields a +4, large shields a +6, but also a -1 and -3 movement penalty for med and large and casting tim -2 -4 -8.
    Crushing damage all reduced, slashing base damage all increased (slashes against unarmoured are horrifying).
    Armour would have DR and only a small AC difference.
    Leather armour -1 movement, +5%DR crush +5% slash. +1casting time
    Studded -1 movement, 1 dex penalty, 10% DR slash, 5% crush, 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC
    Hide -2 movement -2 dex penalty, 15% crush, 5% slash 5% pierce +1 casting time -1 AC
    Chain -2 movement, 2 dex penalty, 30% slash, 20% pierce, 10% crush (considered gambesoned) +4 casting time -2 AC
    Plate -3 movement, 3 dex penalty, 39% slash, 30% pierce, 15% crush, +6 casting time -3 AC

    Arming swords -1AC
    Two handed swords -3 AC
    Staves and spears -3 AC
    Halberd -2 AC
    The rest no bonus

    Weapon styles and proficiencies are where you learn to defend yourself:

    Shield 1 -2AC +1 save vs spells
    Shield 2 -2AC +1 attack +2 save vs spells

    1h1 -1 AC +1 attack
    1h2 -2 AC +2 attack

    2h -2AC +1 attack
    2h -3AC +2 attack

    2wf -1 AC, +1 main hand
    2wf -1 AC, +2 main hand
    2wf -2 AC, +2 main hand +1 off hand.

    Weapon profs

    2 -1 AC +1attack +1/2 apr
    3 -2 AC +2 attack +2 damage +1/2 apr total
    4 -3 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1/2 apr total
    5 -4 AC +3 attack +3 damage +1 apr total

    This is very basic, don't expect the mod within a few months.

    Nice, good luck, I'm sure someone on here can either help you or point you in the right direction. I know absolutely nothing about modding, but from what it sounds like to me, is maybe you can go into a file somewhere and change some variables?
    There are quite a few manuals available already. I first want to know what I want to achieve before I start building. And I need to finish work on my kitchen, so it will take some time. Sorry for threadjacking, I'll make my own to not detour too much from the OP.

    As stated, the +4 vs missiles is none too brilliant, if you have absolutely nothing else, it is worth considering.
    Pause
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 787
    Generally speaking, sword-and-shield proficiency isn't worth it, but if you are limited in how many pips you can put into a proficiency, it can be useful. It's even more useful if your dexterity does nothing for your AC. And there ARE some useful shields in BG2, like Shield of Harmony, Mirror Shield (or Shield of Reflection, can't remember which), and Balduran's Shield.
    PauseOrlonKronsteen
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,453
    edited June 5
    Zilber said:

    Shields and Armour are very badly implemented in dnd, the points don't help as well.

    If you say so...

    tbone1 said:

    Generally speaking, sword-and-shield proficiency isn't worth it

    It's worth it just fine if you want to, you know, wield a one-handed weapon and a shield. Multiclass fighters get a total of 12 pips in any weapon proficiency. A fighter multiclass is only going to get 2 pips ("Specialized") in any given proficiency, of course. (That's equivalent to Paladins & Rangers in BG1 & 2.) +2/+4 AC vs. missile weapons is perfectly in line with how shields actually work in AD&D2. If you're going to use shields and you want a benefit (beyond the benefit granted by a shield itself), then it's actually useful.
    Do the other proficiencies "feel" better? Yes. But let's be realistic here; none of the weapon styles are stellar. And they're not supposed to be. Weapon styles add bonuses on top of whatever weapon proficiencies you have, and on top of the actual benefit of using a weapon.

    A large shield already gives (unenchanted) a -1 Armor bonus, Piercing modifier of -1 additional bonus, & a Missile modifier of -1 additional bonus. A medium shield gives a -1 Armor bonus. Get a +2 large shield, and you're golden. Even better if you get a magic item like Darksteel Shield, Dragon Scale Shield, Fortress Shield, or Shield of Balduran (arguably the best shield in BG2). So, add that +2/+4 bonus against missles from Sword and Shield style, now you're basically never going to get hit by missile attacks.
    ThacoBellPauseAerakar
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,654
    I agree that the benefit against missiles can be useful. That's particularly the case if you want to play SoD on high difficulty - even with equipment giving you significant protection against missiles a high-level kitted archer targeting you with called shots is no joke ...
    PauseOrlonKronsteen
  • PausePause Member Posts: 40
    edited June 5
    Having never really played this game before, I went through to level 5-6, then started over - now that I understand this game better and how to play it.

    I did something that many might disagree with, but I started a solo playthrough on multiplayer and created all 6 characters (yes, I know, we don't need 6 characters) then transferred that save to single player - I hated having to start building a character (NPC) just to have issues with alignment, or having them not how I would build them on my own. Basically limited to how they were created, so I did it myself.

    I also have EE Keeper, but only to be able to change things as I go as I test out different styles of play, I'm not adding things to make the game easy, only to edit proficiency points (taking away points as I add to another skill, changing from one to the other) and things like this.

    I am enjoying this playthrough so much more than my first, adding NPC companions sometimes, but mostly just to steal their items. I know, I am taking away from the game some by not allowing myself to have the NPC's in my party, but I enjoy it much more, at least on my first playthrough, using my created characters.

    I plan on importing them into BG2 EE after this playthrough, through the same method, though I can see how that would make me way overpowered, maybe not all of them, we'll see.

    My characters:

    Half-Orc
    Fighter
    Long Sword
    Two-Weapon Style

    Half-Elf
    Multi-Class: Fighter/Mage/Thief
    Long Sword
    Sword & Shield Style

    Dwarf
    Multi-Class: Fighter/Cleric
    Club
    Sword & Shield Style

    Human
    Archer
    Long Sword
    Shortbow
    Single Weapon Style
    Two-Weapon Style

    Half-Elf
    Multi-Class: Fighter/Mage/Cleric
    Mace
    Sling
    Single Weapon Style

    Half-Elf
    Mage
    Sling
    Post edited by Pause on
    Grond0AerakarOrlonKronsteen
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,832
    You're not taking too much away from BG1 with an all custom party. All the personality in the npcs is through a half dozen or so selection sounds. Its SoD and BG2 where the npcs are really fleshed out, and there you will be losing out on about 1/2 of the experience of playing these games.
    tbone1AerakarOrlonKronsteenQuartz
  • PausePause Member Posts: 40
    ThacoBell said:

    You're not taking too much away from BG1 with an all custom party. All the personality in the npcs is through a half dozen or so selection sounds. Its SoD and BG2 where the npcs are really fleshed out, and there you will be losing out on about 1/2 of the experience of playing these games.

    Ok, thanks, good to know. And yes, just playing to level 6 with some of the NPCs their repetitious talking got annoying.
    OrlonKronsteen
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,249
    I quite like the S&S proficiency option, esp. for rogues, thieves and bards both (other then blade) it helps mitigate the downside of the buckler enough to help a little. When rogues are scouting or singing, every little bit helps. With the new bucklers introduced by Rogue Rebalancing this is esp. true.
    ArctodusPauseThacoBellAerakar
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,339

    You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.

    There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.

    Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.

    Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
  • Artemius_IArtemius_I Member Posts: 1,868
    Skatan said:

    You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.

    There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.

    Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.

    Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
    Yes because you'll totally have all those items right away when it really matters...

    You can't just look at everything in a vacuum. There's many points to consider, like opportunity cost and efficiency. Giving the Boots of Avoidance to my frontline means I can't give them to anyone else. That's not even considering the characters where you literally have no choice because they take SnS at level 1.

    It's a good early game proficiency in a game where ranged attackers are basically the sole threat in the early game. End of story.
    ThacoBellPause
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,393
    tbone1 said:

    Generally speaking, sword-and-shield proficiency isn't worth it, but if you are limited in how many pips you can put into a proficiency, it can be useful. It's even more useful if your dexterity does nothing for your AC. And there ARE some useful shields in BG2, like Shield of Harmony, Mirror Shield (or Shield of Reflection, can't remember which), and Balduran's Shield.

    Using Sword and Shield Style with the Reflection Shield is kind of pointless, since the Reflection Shield already makes you completely invulnerable against missiles.
    GallowglassOrlonKronsteen
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    If I have a fighter using a shield, I want them to be considered proficient with it. It helps with creating the flavour of and the role for that NPC/charname.

    That's a perfectly comprehensible RP reason, and RP trumps all. Nothing silly about it.
    ThacoBellPauseOrlonKronsteenAerakar
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,154

    If I have a fighter using a shield, I want them to be considered proficient with it. It helps with creating the flavour of and the role for that NPC/charname.

    That's a perfectly comprehensible RP reason, and RP trumps all. Nothing silly about it.
    It was more the idea that they just drop it that was a bit silly.
    Can you imagine?

    Yo, Sarevok, I've got this shiny new shield and you can't hit me...oops...hang on a mo...I'll be right there...just talk amongst yourselves...
    PauseThacoBellGallowglassLoldrup
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,339
    edited June 13

    Skatan said:

    You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.

    There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.

    Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.

    Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
    Yes because you'll totally have all those items right away when it really matters...

    You can't just look at everything in a vacuum. There's many points to consider, like opportunity cost and efficiency. Giving the Boots of Avoidance to my frontline means I can't give them to anyone else. That's not even considering the characters where you literally have no choice because they take SnS at level 1.

    It's a good early game proficiency in a game where ranged attackers are basically the sole threat in the early game. End of story.
    These arguments can be said about anything like + to saves, resistances etc. You never start with anything at level 1, you always have to acquire it during the course of the game of course.

    My point is, which I thought was obvious, that you can hit pretty much maximum negative AC vs missiles on your tank in BG1 without investing pips in the S&S style:
    Base AC 0 from full plate
    -3 from Full plate bonus
    -3 from girdle
    -5 from boots
    -4 from cloak
    -3/4 from DEX
    -1/5 from shield

    Even assuming you do not have full platemail still make it fairly easy to make missiles a nuisance. There's even enough items to spread to two tanks so they get around -10 each just from items and with good positioning of the rest if the party that's really what you need.

    Also, I in BG1 you don't have that many pips and I would personally much rather have a weapon for switch then a few AC more from wasting pips in S&S style. Hey, why not put those points into a ranged weapon yourself and unleash hell on your enemy instead?

    I totally agree on putting pips for RP reasons though, that and for characters like druid or clerics who eventually run out of things to put points into anyways.
    SomeSort said:


    1. S/S proficiency stacks with all of those other items that grant bonuses to AC vs. missiles! This is good because...
    2. AC benefits from accelerating returns. The more of it you have, the more useful each additional point becomes up to the point where enemies can only hit you on a crit, which...
    3. won't be for a long time in BG1, where archery rules all, and even if you get there eventually...
    4. will require a lot of gear to do so, and having the S/S bonus frees you to pass some of that superfluous gear on to someone else in your party, letting you...
    5. make more people highly resistant to missile attacks at the same time, which is good because...
    6. one of the biggest dangers of ranged attackers is their ability to freely bypass your front line to target your middle or back line.

    +4 AC vs. missile attacks is such a desirable trait from gear. I can't for the life of me understand why people are so convinced it's a useless trait from proficiencies. Not as sexy as an extra APR from dual-wielding, but especially in BG1 it seems like it's at least as useful as the expanded crit range on 2-handed weapon style.

    I agree with points 2-6 but as I stated above I don't think the pips in S&S is worth it since even if they stack it's quite easy (compared to ie reaching negative saves) to reach max or close to max AC bonus vs missiles without the pips making BG1 encounters vs ranged quite relaxed. Most characters except fighters get quite few pips and putting one or two in S&S style during BG1 will probably limit your weapon choices a lot. It all depends on the character of course.

    And just to make this clear, I don't think pips in S&S is useless, I think it's pointless.
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 787


    Using Sword and Shield Style with the Reflection Shield is kind of pointless, since the Reflection Shield already makes you completely invulnerable against missiles.

    Okay, I must have misremembered again. Isn't there a shield that reflects electricity back at the caster? Or is it not a shield?
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,249
    tbone1 said:


    Using Sword and Shield Style with the Reflection Shield is kind of pointless, since the Reflection Shield already makes you completely invulnerable against missiles.

    Okay, I must have misremembered again. Isn't there a shield that reflects electricity back at the caster? Or is it not a shield?
    @tbone1 I blieve your thinking of the CLOAK of reflection, for the electrics. B)


    GallowglassOrlonKronsteentbone1
  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 88
    edited June 13
    BG1 Bandits have base ThAC0 of 20. So do Kobolds.

    The problem is this: 5 Kobolds times 2 attacks per round times 0.05 crit chance = 1 person hit every 2 rounds on average for at least 1-6 damage(which might be a third of all your HP at that point), double that if you don't have a helmet. And that will always happen, whether your AC is 0 or -20.

    Sword and Shield Style is a absolutely a waste of pips, because it was never the AC that was the problem.
    OrlonKronsteenQuartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,832
    Skatan said:

    Skatan said:

    You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.

    There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.

    Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.

    Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
    Yes because you'll totally have all those items right away when it really matters...

    You can't just look at everything in a vacuum. There's many points to consider, like opportunity cost and efficiency. Giving the Boots of Avoidance to my frontline means I can't give them to anyone else. That's not even considering the characters where you literally have no choice because they take SnS at level 1.

    It's a good early game proficiency in a game where ranged attackers are basically the sole threat in the early game. End of story.
    These arguments can be said about anything like + to saves, resistances etc. You never start with anything at level 1, you always have to acquire it during the course of the game of course.

    My point is, which I thought was obvious, that you can hit pretty much maximum negative AC vs missiles on your tank in BG1 without investing pips in the S&S style:
    Base AC 0 from full plate
    -3 from Full plate bonus
    -3 from girdle
    -5 from boots
    -4 from cloak
    -3/4 from DEX
    -1/5 from shield

    Even assuming you do not have full platemail still make it fairly easy to make missiles a nuisance. There's even enough items to spread to two tanks so they get around -10 each just from items and with good positioning of the rest if the party that's really what you need.

    Also, I in BG1 you don't have that many pips and I would personally much rather have a weapon for switch then a few AC more from wasting pips in S&S style. Hey, why not put those points into a ranged weapon yourself and unleash hell on your enemy instead?

    I totally agree on putting pips for RP reasons though, that and for characters like druid or clerics who eventually run out of things to put points into anyways.
    SomeSort said:


    1. S/S proficiency stacks with all of those other items that grant bonuses to AC vs. missiles! This is good because...
    2. AC benefits from accelerating returns. The more of it you have, the more useful each additional point becomes up to the point where enemies can only hit you on a crit, which...
    3. won't be for a long time in BG1, where archery rules all, and even if you get there eventually...
    4. will require a lot of gear to do so, and having the S/S bonus frees you to pass some of that superfluous gear on to someone else in your party, letting you...
    5. make more people highly resistant to missile attacks at the same time, which is good because...
    6. one of the biggest dangers of ranged attackers is their ability to freely bypass your front line to target your middle or back line.

    +4 AC vs. missile attacks is such a desirable trait from gear. I can't for the life of me understand why people are so convinced it's a useless trait from proficiencies. Not as sexy as an extra APR from dual-wielding, but especially in BG1 it seems like it's at least as useful as the expanded crit range on 2-handed weapon style.

    I agree with points 2-6 but as I stated above I don't think the pips in S&S is worth it since even if they stack it's quite easy (compared to ie reaching negative saves) to reach max or close to max AC bonus vs missiles without the pips making BG1 encounters vs ranged quite relaxed. Most characters except fighters get quite few pips and putting one or two in S&S style during BG1 will probably limit your weapon choices a lot. It all depends on the character of course.

    And just to make this clear, I don't think pips in S&S is useless, I think it's pointless.
    You're not gonna be able to get that on all your partymembers though. Part of the points above, is that taking a point or in SS can help spread these more evenly around that party.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Skatan said:

    Skatan said:

    You really learn to appreciate that -4 to AC vs. missiles when playing BG1 with high difficulty and SCS.

    There's plenty of items granting +AC vs piercing/missile making the pips in S&S redundant and pointless; elves bane belt/girdle of piercing, cloak of displacement, boots of avoidance, necklace of sheild etc.

    Add in ie the Large Shield +1, +4 vs Missiles and a fullplate mail and you will have so much -AC to piercing/missiles you will only get hit on crits.

    Pips in S&S is pointless, no matter if you have SCS, play SoD on insane or whatever. It just is.
    Yes because you'll totally have all those items right away when it really matters...

    You can't just look at everything in a vacuum. There's many points to consider, like opportunity cost and efficiency. Giving the Boots of Avoidance to my frontline means I can't give them to anyone else. That's not even considering the characters where you literally have no choice because they take SnS at level 1.

    It's a good early game proficiency in a game where ranged attackers are basically the sole threat in the early game. End of story.
    These arguments can be said about anything like + to saves, resistances etc. You never start with anything at level 1, you always have to acquire it during the course of the game of course.
    Well, there is *one* thing you start with at level 1.

    Sword and Shield style.

    That's kind of the point.
    And just to make this clear, I don't think pips in S&S is useless, I think it's pointless.
    If S&S has a use, then the point of S&S is to benefit from that use.
    Loldrup
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761

    BG1 Bandits have base ThAC0 of 20. So do Kobolds.

    The problem is this: 5 Kobolds times 2 attacks per round times 0.05 crit chance = 1 person hit every 2 rounds on average for at least 1-6 damage(which might be a third of all your HP at that point), double that if you don't have a helmet. And that will always happen, whether your AC is 0 or -20.

    Sword and Shield Style is a absolutely a waste of pips, because it was never the AC that was the problem.

    I have been hit by enemy archers on non-critical rolls before. If an enemy archer can only hit me on a roll of 18, 19, or 20, then investing a pip in S&S style reduces incoming damage by 66%, which is a heck of a lot of damage reduction. (Assuming you have a helm, of course; it's 50% if you don't have a helm.)

    I could just as easily say points in a second weapon are absolutely a waste of pips. Unless my dude is dual-wielding, (and the mere fact that we're talking about Sword and Shield style establishes that he's not), I can only wield one weapon at once. So I either put pips in a second weapon that are literally giving me zero benefits because I don't have that weapon type equipped, or else I put pips in S&S style which are giving me non-zero benefit.

    Sure, I could invest in a ranged weapon and switch... but my front-line tanks aren't going to switch to ranged. The whole point of a front-line tank is to draw enemy attacks. If your tank is firing a bow, he is tanking wrong.
    ThacoBell
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