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BG2 is not really in an urgency (spoilers)

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  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    Mantis37 said:

    Even in the absence of a Archmage bashing McGuffin like the rod used to take down the Unseeing Eye there is at least some justification for gathering resources.

    Funny, one of the ideas I had for a mod to fix the urgency problem is precisely this. Give rumors of an archmage-milling mcguffin, somewhere in or around Athkatla. And script it to appear on the 6th (or whatever) quest boss you fight.

    Ultimately, the much simpler solution was turning Imoen to stone. (And it looks like Jastey has made a mod for it! :smiley: )
    batoor said:

    Perhaps it's a flaw of mine, but I feel no need to single out BG2 regarding this thing.

    Sure, obviously it's still great in spite of this. But it's particularly a shame because it would have been really easy to make it work better, as demonstrated by the two simple mod ideas above.

    Mantis37batoor
  • _Connacht__Connacht_ Member Posts: 144

    The *urgency*, if your own decay is not motivation enough, is indicated by the battle between elves and drow and is intended to be emphasised by the Ellesime dream you get, her people are dying daily from Irenicus forces in the city.

    Good. They brought this upon themselves. The entire city can burn for all I care.
    Luckily or unfortunately, Baldur's Gate is not openworld but has a main plot to follow, so the player has to continue the chapter anyway and save the elves. :D

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 507

    No offense, but I don't buy it. Charname doesn't know what's happening, or when she will be transported away forever, or worse. Yeah you need 20k gp to get her, but if it was your best friend, wouldn't you try to raise that amount ASAP? And being that you can get 20k gp from 1.5 quests, would you hang around to finish 6 or 7 quests? It doesn't fit with basic, common human nature.

    (Some day I'll find time to make a little mod to have Imoen turned to stone at the Promenade... that way Charname would assume she is in the same shape as Branwen, and can be restored at any point.)

    I like the idea, though, that way all you need is a license for practicing magic and a scroll StF. Should be cheap and simple enough.

    I wonder why no one ever tried to make a mod that actually kills Imoen (as it was supposed to be) and your only motivation then would be revenge/power hunting. Guess, it's a lot of work to correct every dialog.

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    Mirandel said:

    No offense, but I don't buy it. Charname doesn't know what's happening, or when she will be transported away forever, or worse. Yeah you need 20k gp to get her, but if it was your best friend, wouldn't you try to raise that amount ASAP? And being that you can get 20k gp from 1.5 quests, would you hang around to finish 6 or 7 quests? It doesn't fit with basic, common human nature.

    (Some day I'll find time to make a little mod to have Imoen turned to stone at the Promenade... that way Charname would assume she is in the same shape as Branwen, and can be restored at any point.)

    I like the idea, though, that way all you need is a license for practicing magic and a scroll StF. Should be cheap and simple enough.

    I wonder why no one ever tried to make a mod that actually kills Imoen (as it was supposed to be) and your only motivation then would be revenge/power hunting. Guess, it's a lot of work to correct every dialog.
    A mod to kill Imoen would be incompatible with about 90% of all BG2 mods aside from the original dialogues. It's not only enormous work but likely not to catch all the thousands of references made with respect to your imprisoned companion in Spellhold. Some plots and quests would even completely fail without her. In some aspects the game just needs to be accepted as it is. You would have a similar problem if the protagonist could convince Sarevok to surrender and redemption (Like Tamoko pleads) instead of killing him.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,509
    As far as I know, it was planned originally to let Imoen die in Spellhold.

    ThacoBell
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 507
    edited June 2017
    jastey said:

    As far as I know, it was planned originally to let Imoen die in Spellhold.

    And by that time it's too late, of course.

    Agree with @UnderstandMouseMagic - Probably, the best solution then would be some Cowled Wizard explaining to CHARNAME, that Imoen is found guilty and her punishment is 1-2-3-n years of imprisonment. That it's as official as official goes and absolutely nothing can be done. However, after that imprisonment time she is free to go - with all the reassurance of her safety there. Hence, you have a choice of waiting for several years or stage a prison break, that (obviously) would involve criminals and large sums of money. (If Irenicus is a motivation for CHARNAME - then it's the opposite: kill him before he gets released).

    Still weak, obviously, but gives you some room.

    @ThacoBell "Growing in power" and "collecting information" would be a good motive, should you truly "grow in power" or collect that information. But all you do is (story-wise and game-mechanic aside) is collecting money to pay one of the guilds.
    Not trying to undermine your RP motivations! Just looking for my own :)

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017
    I have my doubts that any drastic (or artificial) change of the 15 year old main plot is not a really good way to approach the issue. I still prefer the much simpler solution discussed already in previous posts here:
    - you can go to Spellhold as soon as you have the money or the other way round, there is no way whatsoever to get after Imoen before you have the gold.
    - thus the minimum time you need to spend with quests etc in this chapter is the time you need to collect the gold
    - if the current required sum can be achieved in 1.5 quests (somebody stated earlier, may be correct or not, anyway it is not ALL available quests are required) then the obvious simple solution is increase the price.
    - The simple way is in EET tweaks mod, it allows you to select another sum
    - Another alternative is provided by a mod I mentioned in an earlier post where Gaelan is forced to increase the original price due to the sudden change in Athkatla's internal balance after your/Irenicus/Bodhi's arrival.

    But of course, since mods are always optional, you can make your choice now between three variations already after @jastey has published the Stoned Imoen (hihi) mod now. Or even combine them - petrified Imoen and higher price do not exclude each other.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    You know the simplest solution would be to take out the whole Galen/raise money business and leave Charname totally at a loss as to what they could do to help.

    Instead of "do this quest because it gives you money" everyone of them could be written from the point of view that you might find out something that would help.

    For instance

    Unseeing eye--to gain aid from the Temple
    Firkrag obvious, he even mentions Irenicus.
    Trademeet---somebody you need to talk to, an ex inmate for instance.
    Planar Sphere, again obvious to get on the right side of the CW
    Ummar Hills, just make the CW living there plot important, even link him to the Planar Sphere/Valygar
    Thieves Guild-- you need money anyway, straightforward funds to live on. Which later leads to Linvail and then the offer of passage is made. He in turn asks you to deal with Bodhi and then she can make her offer.

    Or how about this for a plot device rather than "earn good money here".

    The dryads give you acorns in CI and tell you that if you deliver them their enchantment will be broken and they can tell you more about Irenicus. Which would of course lead you to Firkrag.

    Keep charname in the dark, reveal the path slowly, a step at a time.
    Like they did in BG so well.

    ArtonaSunderPermidion_Stark
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    Mirandel said:

    No offense, but I don't buy it. Charname doesn't know what's happening, or when she will be transported away forever, or worse. Yeah you need 20k gp to get her, but if it was your best friend, wouldn't you try to raise that amount ASAP? And being that you can get 20k gp from 1.5 quests, would you hang around to finish 6 or 7 quests? It doesn't fit with basic, common human nature.

    (Some day I'll find time to make a little mod to have Imoen turned to stone at the Promenade... that way Charname would assume she is in the same shape as Branwen, and can be restored at any point.)

    I like the idea, though, that way all you need is a license for practicing magic and a scroll StF. Should be cheap and simple enough.

    I wonder why no one ever tried to make a mod that actually kills Imoen (as it was supposed to be) and your only motivation then would be revenge/power hunting. Guess, it's a lot of work to correct every dialog.
    Check it out :wink:

    You know the simplest solution would be to take out the whole Galen/raise money business and leave Charname totally at a loss as to what they could do to help.

    Instead of "do this quest because it gives you money" everyone of them could be written from the point of view that you might find out something that would help.

    ...

    Keep charname in the dark, reveal the path slowly, a step at a time.
    Like they did in BG so well.

    Excellent ideas. Might be hard to pull off well - what if you do quests out of order? Etc.

    But maybe it could be done simply: simply run a counter of a global variable, and increment it whenever you finish a major quest. None of them will actually point you to Spellhold... but when the variable reaches a certain number, THEN have Gaelan approach you, saying something like, "word is you're running all over the countryside looking for information about the wizard(s) who wrecked the Promenade. I think we might be able to help each other out..."

    Permidion_Stark
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 507
    edited June 2017

    Mirandel said:

    No offense, but I don't buy it. Charname doesn't know what's happening, or when she will be transported away forever, or worse. Yeah you need 20k gp to get her, but if it was your best friend, wouldn't you try to raise that amount ASAP? And being that you can get 20k gp from 1.5 quests, would you hang around to finish 6 or 7 quests? It doesn't fit with basic, common human nature.

    (Some day I'll find time to make a little mod to have Imoen turned to stone at the Promenade... that way Charname would assume she is in the same shape as Branwen, and can be restored at any point.)

    I like the idea, though, that way all you need is a license for practicing magic and a scroll StF. Should be cheap and simple enough.

    I wonder why no one ever tried to make a mod that actually kills Imoen (as it was supposed to be) and your only motivation then would be revenge/power hunting. Guess, it's a lot of work to correct every dialog.
    Check it out :wink:

    You know the simplest solution would be to take out the whole Galen/raise money business and leave Charname totally at a loss as to what they could do to help.

    Instead of "do this quest because it gives you money" everyone of them could be written from the point of view that you might find out something that would help.

    ...

    Keep charname in the dark, reveal the path slowly, a step at a time.
    Like they did in BG so well.

    Excellent ideas. Might be hard to pull off well - what if you do quests out of order? Etc.

    But maybe it could be done simply: simply run a counter of a global variable, and increment it whenever you finish a major quest. None of them will actually point you to Spellhold... but when the variable reaches a certain number, THEN have Gaelan approach you, saying something like, "word is you're running all over the countryside looking for information about the wizard(s) who wrecked the Promenade. I think we might be able to help each other out..."
    How could I miss that tread!

    Really like the idea about Gaelan approaching you a bit later. Though, still with combination of that small text correction, with visiting CW and getting official response about prison and some-years punishment. My CHARNAME does need that reassurance that Imoen is ok and only lost her freedom.

    Then it can be a "power-base" with classical planning of jailbreak: searching for SH blueprints (with misleading or lost parts), collecting money for the team that helps you (several teams? One to break in (your selected companions), one to make a distraction (hirelings)? And field-testing those teams?), organizing transportation (Gaelan/Bodhy part) - actually, something, indicating more visibly necessity to continue money gethering.

    An interesting way could be if all quests would come through Aran/Bodhy - loot you can keep, but it's them who sends you on all the errands and until they say "enough" you have to run it. I mean, no money involved, just pne of the guild using you.

    ArtonaPermidion_Stark
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,458
    edited June 2017
    One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that you have a dream where Imoen is sad and depressed, and says "You will come too late." I think that whole dream sequence is an artifact of the original plot, and was meant to be a prophetic dream that foreshadows Imoen's death. It was meant to be tragic and dark. And I think it would have also been a more compelling story. It still wouldn't solve the problem of having all the side-questing in the game have legitimacy and meaning, though.

    Gathering power to confront Irenicus could be a legitimate reason to side-quest, but the only motivation to confront him for a good character not driven by revenge would be the soul-stealing thing. Perhaps having the soul-stealing rewritten to be a better story device would help.

    As it stands, my opinion is still that the BG2 story is not well-written at all, especially because it had to be revised on the fly due to the bad fan response during testing. I have to give it very generous full suspension of disbelief, and just play all the side-quests without thinking about it much if I want to enjoy a BG2 run.

    Artonathar_thaazdhenPermidion_Stark
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    Mirandel said:

    Then it can be a "power-base" with classical planning of jailbreak: searching for SH blueprints (with misleading or lost parts), collecting money for the team that helps you (several teams? One to break in (your selected companions), one to make a distraction (hirelings)? And field-testing those teams?), organizing transportation (Gaelan/Bodhy part) - actually, something, indicating more visibly necessity to continue money gethering.

    Turn the game into a heist flick? I love it!

    (Would be a lot of work though.)

    Permidion_Stark
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,142
    @subtledoctor

    How about this.

    You arrive in Athkatla after the fight. You already talk to NPC standing around. Two important bits of info, one the CW, two the thieves guild.
    So you go to the CW, you are the hero of BG after all (just ignore SOD, it doesn't fit anyway). They refuse to help, you find out about needing a magic license and cost. And about a CW living in Umar who maybe more ameanable for a price.

    That's it, you've got the incentive to start having to raise money without the awkward imposition of Galen that gives away far too much info at that point in the game.

    You go to the slums, you've been told that's the place to pick up work plus it's cheap to live. Slaves, Nalia, Anomen occur. Arniss Keep is on the way to Umar. The Umar CW puts you on the trail of Valygar, Planar Sphere in return for promising info abot S/H.

    Yoshimo offers an introduction to the Thieves, that brings in the docks. The CW you have to kill for Edwin could give you some info about a former inmate of SH based in Trademeet or the CW at Umar could do that.

    It's likely you would visit the temple district anyway, the game doesn't need to hold your hand for that. From them you get some more info about S/H, that it's not based in Amn for instance.

    Or you go after the former inmate in TM who can tell you that it's on an island, or that it needs wardstones, or that the island is run by pirates. All small pieces of info that don't need to be presented as an info dump in one go.

    The acorns give you the incentive to go to Windspeare, they tell you about the Irenicus curse but don't know who from or why.

    In other words, spread the info Charname needs and give lots of choices about where Charname can find it. The quests that turn up around gathering that info, that's up to the player as now. But it solves the problem of why you are messing around because you still don't know what's what.

    So on you go, by this time have amassed money and have a clearer idea what S/H is and what you need to do to get there. You never need the game having a person showing up saying, "I'll sort it for a price".

    Bodhi is found, yeah she's a vampire, but why wouldn't you believe she wants revenge on Irenicus if she says he's the cause of that? She's in Athkatla and opposing the TG because she believed she needed to stop Irenicus and get her revenge.

    So you go and confront Linval, dilemma, who to believe? Who's help are you going to accept?

    MirandelSkandiiPermidion_Stark
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,509
    edited June 2017
    Ah, wonderful ideas. It's a pity it's too complicated (and incompatible with 99% of other mods) to make this true.

    Another idea: Why not make the Cowled Wizards approach the PC after some time. They lost contact to Spellhold, after all. Spellhold is managed independently to the CW but still, I'd think they would like to know what is going on there. None of them might want to go there themselves, so the PC would be a good choice.

    I think one of the things I didn't like in BGII is this "we are mighty organisations and we know e-ve-ry-thing about you and your turmoil, we are watching you, and yet we let you struggle by yourself" feeling the game gives at the beginning.

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,995


    As it stands, my opinion is still that the BG2 story is not well-written at all, especially because it had to be revised on the fly due to the bad fan response during testing. I have to give it very generous full suspension of disbelief, and just play all the side-quests without thinking about it much if I want to enjoy a BG2 run.

    Odd, I consider BG2 one of the better written games. Certainly the dialogue and character development are about as good as anything out there today. I'm trying to remember a game before BG2 that did these things better; maybe PS:T, but other than that I'm drawing a blank. Anomen and Aerie develop interestingly; you see Valygar struggle to make sense of what he learned on his quest. Jan's side quest has some pathos that shows he's not just some clown. Even Korgan shows sides you don't expect, like his attitude towards the slavers and his experiences in clan wars.

    Now, the main plot may not be perfect, I grant you, and part of that is the issue with Imoen being re-added late in the day.


    I sometimes wonder if the original intent was to have a character do the slavers story, do the only appropriate quest for their class before goint to spellhold asap, emerge back in Amn, deal with Bodhi, save the elves, end.


    It certainly felt that way the first couple times I played the game. But by and large, I have no issue with BG2's writing. It is massive and epic in scope, particularly for a game that came out when it did, and I can certainly forgive it if the main plot isn't always at the forefront. This will be particularly true if one is used to playing mods and with the EE characters.

    ThacoBell
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,509
    @tbone1 It's no contradiciton to me. The NPCs' dialogues and backstories etc. are (and were when BG2 was released) outstanding (I wouldn't want to miss such fleshed-out NPCs in any game). And yet, the main story was lacking. Plus, main story in combination with wonderfully fleshed-out NPC side quests don't go well together for the reasons discussed above.

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,995
    @jastey Fair enough, but is there a game with a better-written plot, particularly one that was of BG2's time? PS:T, perhaps, but I recall that BG2's plot and writing were considered fantastic at the time.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, but many people find the expansive, open feel of BG1 to be one of its better features; however, there are many areas and side quests that are irrelevant to the central plot. That you can make a good lightning run to Chapter 5 in the first game, ignoring a lot of area and content, would seem to be a parallel for all the quests in BG2. Again, I'm not saying anyone is wrong; I just find it interesting.

    I wonder if this is an issue because we've played BG2 so often that we only now notice this "flaw", for lack of a better term, after many playthroughs.

    ThacoBellBelgarathMTHmf2112
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017
    jastey said:

    @tbone1 It's no contradiciton to me. The NPCs' dialogues and backstories etc. are (and were when BG2 was released) outstanding (I wouldn't want to miss such fleshed-out NPCs in any game). And yet, the main story was lacking. Plus, main story in combination with wonderfully fleshed-out NPC side quests don't go well together for the reasons discussed above.

    You are making a point here, even if I guess it was unintended. In this chapter of BG2 which raised the discussion, the main plot may really not be the most important thing. After BG1 and Irenicus dungeon you now emerge into a brand new world. There is so much to explore and your companions add so much that it is baffling. All of Amn lies before you.
    Just over time you slowly get the information about Irenicus, Spellhold, Bodhi, etc. It takes a long time until the main plot of going after Irenicus really builds up. This is very much alike early BG1 before the spotlight goes on Sarevok. Until the cutscene showing Irenicus taking over Spellhold it isn't even really clear that he is your opponent in this game. He was your kidnapper but you are free again. There is not a clear indication that he would play a major role here any more. He is arrested and taken away. Unless of course you played the game already before or read too much about it before you started.
    Yes, Imoen is taken - by the authorities, so obviously there is a quest to find her. But within some half hour of exploring where you are, you may already have several other quests detected/accepted as well. At that time, free/find Imoen is one of several quests you have. Do you really know that this is THE quest in those early stages. When I first played BG2, I didn't. I played for half a day around Amn and had most of the big side quests at hand, plus the information that searching Imoen would cost money I could gather with the other quests. There was no real indication about priorities or the other way round, everybody claimed their need was very urgent (Umar, Nalia, Aerie) but nothing really happened when you took your time.

    tbone1ThacoBell
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,458
    I'm up tonight with insomnia, and I just had one of my crazy ideas pop into my head about the Imoen issue.

    One of the attractions that make people keep playing the BG triology over and over, at least for those of us who got started in tabletop D&D, is how closely the BG experience adapts the tabletop experience into a single player computer game, so we can play and have a similar experience to what we had as teens, now that we are in a stage of life where playing tabletop D&D with other adults is impractical due to real life.

    The NPC cast of BG was based at least in part on actual tabletop characters that the original devs had played. So, they all have the feel of having a real life player behind them, or at least they approximate that. You can almost imagine the person behind the character if you are so inclined.

    So, my crazy idea is that I could probably enjoy almost the entirety of BG2 with respect to the Imoen issue if I imagine that her player has had to temporarily quit the group due to real life issues. Maybe she got a new job, or had a baby or something. The rest of our group continues to play for a year or two, and Imoen's player has told us that she does want to come back at some point. Our dungeon master "writes her out", and we decide to make a story about her being kidnapped to cover her absence. The DM plans and writes maps for a scenario that will get her back into the game when she tells us she is almost ready to return. We drop what we are doing and "go to Spellhold" at this time, when we are getting our game ready for the return of our old group member.

    Using this fantasy as a kind of tool to help my suspension of disbelief as I play the single player game, I can just do all the side-questing in BG2 before Spellhold if I want to, and not worry about it. "Imoen's not really in Spellhold, her player's just off taking care of her baby."

    tbone1ThacoBell
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201

    "Imoen's not really in Spellhold, her player's just off taking care of her baby."

    Now you started something...Imoen's baby...

    tbone1ThacoBell
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,458
    Imoen's *player's* baby. Important distinction, there.

    tbone1ThacoBellbatoor
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,995

    "Imoen's not really in Spellhold, her player's just off taking care of her baby."

    Now you started something...Imoen's baby...
    "Imoen' Baby" sounds like the title of a Primus song. Or maybe Captain Beefheart.

    Artona
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    tbone1 said:

    "Imoen's not really in Spellhold, her player's just off taking care of her baby."

    Now you started something...Imoen's baby...
    "Imoen' Baby" sounds like the title of a Primus song. Or maybe Captain Beefheart.
    A horror movie, Rosemary's Baby

    ThacoBell
  • _Connacht__Connacht_ Member Posts: 144

    Imoen's *player's* baby. Important distinction, there.

    Man you don't know what you might have unleashed... °_°

    tbone1ThacoBell
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 677
    BG3: The son of Jon Irenicus

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201
    edited June 2017
    batoor said:

    BG3: The son of Jon Irenicus

    Impossible, because of Jon's mmh *Tree of Life*...after all that is why he and Ellesime parted.
    It must have been Lonk, the Sane as it happened in Spellhold.

    And there is a son of Irenicus already:
    In Return to Faerun mod you revisit Irenicus in his former laboratory. He still studies everything magic - you need his assistance in a quest. In return for his favours, you have to help him with some trouble before *little Quayle comes home from school*. So guess who the mother is. Later there is a quest about uninvited guests to their wedding. I'm not sure however, this development might depend of whether you could reach redemption for him at ToB's final scene via Longer Road's quest , like I did..

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 507

    jastey said:

    @tbone1 It's no contradiciton to me. The NPCs' dialogues and backstories etc. are (and were when BG2 was released) outstanding (I wouldn't want to miss such fleshed-out NPCs in any game). And yet, the main story was lacking. Plus, main story in combination with wonderfully fleshed-out NPC side quests don't go well together for the reasons discussed above.

    You are making a point here, even if I guess it was unintended. In this chapter of BG2 which raised the discussion, the main plot may really not be the most important thing. After BG1 and Irenicus dungeon you now emerge into a brand new world. There is so much to explore and your companions add so much that it is baffling. All of Amn lies before you.
    Just over time you slowly get the information about Irenicus, Spellhold, Bodhi, etc. It takes a long time until the main plot of going after Irenicus really builds up. This is very much alike early BG1 before the spotlight goes on Sarevok. Until the cutscene showing Irenicus taking over Spellhold it isn't even really clear that he is your opponent in this game. He was your kidnapper but you are free again. There is not a clear indication that he would play a major role here any more. He is arrested and taken away. Unless of course you played the game already before or read too much about it before you started.
    Yes, Imoen is taken - by the authorities, so obviously there is a quest to find her. But within some half hour of exploring where you are, you may already have several other quests detected/accepted as well. At that time, free/find Imoen is one of several quests you have. Do you really know that this is THE quest in those early stages. When I first played BG2, I didn't. I played for half a day around Amn and had most of the big side quests at hand, plus the information that searching Imoen would cost money I could gather with the other quests. There was no real indication about priorities or the other way round, everybody claimed their need was very urgent (Umar, Nalia, Aerie) but nothing really happened when you took your time.
    Actually, game indicates very clearly what quest is THE quest aka main plot. Not only in your quest log and journal both point to it, but every time you accept another quest or recruit new companion your reply options are "I need to save a friend"\"I have to kill mage Irenicus". You are working on it from the start.

    And main villain or a minor one but Irenicus was shown as a very powerful opponent of your Charname who has personal interest in you and Imoen. There are no doubts about his importance for the plot.

    The way to look at the plot from pov "oh, I am in a new city now, let's explore" can certainly work for some characters, but it obviously was not written from that position. This is exactly the problem with the plot we are discussing here - "nothing really happened when you took your time" BUT it's very difficult to justify "taking time" for anyone following the plot and using care for Imoen/revenge to Irenicus as a motive for actions.

    Artona
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