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Rings of protection ruin game play

LoldrupLoldrup Member Posts: 160
Rings of protection IMHO have *negative* influence on BG game play:

First of, they add passive protection. No interesting game mechanic there.

Second, there are plenty of these things on the main route of BG, so there's no push towards having to hunt them down in exotic places. They thus don't instigate any 'drive' in you.

Third, they make BG easier. BG is plenty easy as it is, so that simply translates into: more boring.

Fourth, and worst: they make magic armor mostly pointless. Which is sad because magic armors *do* reside in exotic places which thus really could instigate you to go on adventure to hunt them down. If they were actually useful, that is. Which they aren't, because of protection rings...

Therefore, I have added protection rings and necklaces on my long list of banned things in BG.

Furthermore, I have decided that I won't sell these items when I find them. I will go to Beregost and simply dump them in the streets! Muahahaha!

(okay, that's not so evil.. but still!)
sarevok57OrlonKronsteenRavenslighttbone1
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Comments

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,654
    I agree that the way rings of protection interact with magic armor is flawed - resulting in normal armor usually being preferable. In P&P the bonus from magic armor did benefit saving throws against things armor might be expected to help against (such as fireball), which gave the magic armor an extra edge.
    Loldruptbone1ArctodusQuartz
  • LoldrupLoldrup Member Posts: 160

    I foresee many happy beggars and common folk in the streets of Bereghost. :)

    but.. are ther actually any beggars in Bereghost..?
    Ravenslightdstoltzfus
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 787
    Loldrup said:

    I foresee many happy beggars and common folk in the streets of Bereghost. :)

    but.. are ther actually any beggars in Bereghost..?
    Plenty of silly beggars, if yer arst me.

    ZaghoulRavenslightLoldrup
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 7,400
    Loldrup said:

    Rings of protection ruin game play

    Second, there are plenty of these things on the main route of BG, so there's no push towards having to hunt them down

    We are working on a mod that addresses this... :wink:
    mlneveseAquadrizztLoldrupMadrict
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 222
    Of all the things that are detrimental to gameplay, I can't say these rings count.

    My list?

    The Stupifier
    Wands
    Gauntlets of dex
    Gauntlets of OP
    Ankheg plate
    Everything Drizzt has

    These are much more powerful, and change the game more than the rings +1
    Loldrupsemiticgod
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 379
    @Zilber I agree with you, except for the Stupifier. Since the nerf, it's nowhere near as strong as it was before.
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 222
    @Arctodus It is still the second easiest +1 weapon to get, and gets a nice (if no longer blatantly overpowering) boost.
    Arctodus
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Zilber said:

    @Arctodus It is still the second easiest +1 weapon to get, and gets a nice (if no longer blatantly overpowering) boost.

    Given that one can get Varsacona-- in contention for the best weapon in the game-- with nothing but two characters, one bow, and a stack of arrows, the (nerfed) Stupefier hardly stands out as especially broken to me. In terms of weapons that shift the entire meta, I'd say there's Varsacona, the Chelsey Crusher, Spider's Bane, the Staff Mace, Drizzt's scimitars, throwing axes +1 (you can use them in melee for an unbreakable +1 weapon that costs like 50 gold), generic throwing daggers (2 APR with strength bonus, which can reach +7 even for charname mages and thieves), and all bows, (including the LCoS).

    And, of course, Tomes, but that kind of goes without saying.
    LoldrupArctodus
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 787
    Confession time: as someone who played D&D before many of you were born, the BG series felt like a bit of a Monty Haul campaign, and still does. However, I also recognize that it can be brutal at low levels, and that given CHARNAME's father one should be rather overpowered and well equipped, it doesn't bother me much.

    Except the tomes, it feels like they should be in SoA, not BG, if at all.
    mlneveseZaghoul
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,654
    SomeSort said:

    Given that one can get Varsacona-- in contention for the best weapon in the game-- with nothing but two characters, one bow, and a stack of arrows, the (nerfed) Stupefier hardly stands out as especially broken to me. In terms of weapons that shift the entire meta, I'd say there's Varsacona, the Chelsey Crusher, Spider's Bane, the Staff Mace, Drizzt's scimitars, throwing axes +1 (you can use them in melee for an unbreakable +1 weapon that costs like 50 gold), generic throwing daggers (2 APR with strength bonus, which can reach +7 even for charname mages and thieves), and all bows, (including the LCoS).

    @SomeSort why do you like the Chelsey Crusher? The only class where I might consider that a good weapon would be bards - who would rarely be meleeing in my BG1 games anyway. For fighter types the loss of APR means just a standard +1 halberd will normally do better damage.
    Quartz
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Grond0 said:

    SomeSort said:

    Given that one can get Varsacona-- in contention for the best weapon in the game-- with nothing but two characters, one bow, and a stack of arrows, the (nerfed) Stupefier hardly stands out as especially broken to me. In terms of weapons that shift the entire meta, I'd say there's Varsacona, the Chelsey Crusher, Spider's Bane, the Staff Mace, Drizzt's scimitars, throwing axes +1 (you can use them in melee for an unbreakable +1 weapon that costs like 50 gold), generic throwing daggers (2 APR with strength bonus, which can reach +7 even for charname mages and thieves), and all bows, (including the LCoS).

    @SomeSort why do you like the Chelsey Crusher? The only class where I might consider that a good weapon would be bards - who would rarely be meleeing in my BG1 games anyway. For fighter types the loss of APR means just a standard +1 halberd will normally do better damage.
    You answered your own question, there-- bards, and especially blades. Chelsey Crusher is a substantial melee boost to the class, enough, (in my opinion), to subtly shift the meta more in their favor than it otherwise would have been, especially given how early / easily it can be obtained. It's relevant that I'm mostly playing in a 1.3 environment where Offensive Spin boosts it to two APR; I don't know if that was patched away in 2.0.

    (This narrow applicability is also why the Staff Mace is on the list. Yes, it's technically the highest-damage one-hander in the game, but it's not really an upgrade to Varsacona for Fighter-types, especially considering how late you get it. But it's a big upgrade for Clerics, Cleric multis, and backstabbing thieves. And especially to Alora, whose luck bonus gets applied twice to brutal effect.)
    AndreaColomboThacoBell
  • Drizzt150Drizzt150 Member Posts: 1
    Join my BG:EE game "Assassin's hard work"
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 7,654
    tbone1 said:

    Confession time: as someone who played D&D before many of you were born, the BG series felt like a bit of a Monty Haul campaign, and still does. However, I also recognize that it can be brutal at low levels, and that given CHARNAME's father one should be rather overpowered and well equipped, it doesn't bother me much.

    Except the tomes, it feels like they should be in SoA, not BG, if at all.

    I have to agree.. in 30+ years playing the pen & paper version I have seem tomes maybe twice... and never a full set to raise all stats...
    ZaghoulRavenslight
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 310
    I would like to do a non-monty haul run sometime with item randomiser removing 75% of magic items and some xp reductions. Possibly it will cut into the power curve but may be fun to try once.
    mlnevese
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,249
    Well, I ain't to proud to admit I've been killed off MANY a times over the years with this game, no matter what kinda magic I'm carrying. Lil bitty ol rings, phhttt, I's like a tank sometimes, esp doin no re-load runs exclusively, (add in alot of solo (or 1 or 2 comp's) then even moreso). B)
    mlneveseRavenslightThacoBell
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,703
    I'm all for people enjoying their theorycrafting and optimizing and powergaming, but any time someone says "meta" I can't help but laugh. Dawg, it's a single-player role-playing game, players aren't pitted against each other or anything, what are you even talking about.
    Arunsuntmaso
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Quartz said:

    I'm all for people enjoying their theorycrafting and optimizing and powergaming, but any time someone says "meta" I can't help but laugh. Dawg, it's a single-player role-playing game, players aren't pitted against each other or anything, what are you even talking about.

    Games don't need to be competitive to have a "meta". Probably the thing I've spent the most time with buddies discussing the "meta" of is the Lord of the Rings card game... which is likewise single-player or co-op only, with no player conflict. But it has a very active, vibrant community that spends a lot of time discussing the state of the meta. Developers who regularly chat with players and discuss design decisions they made and what they anticipate the impacts will be on the meta. And so on.

    What you play is the game and what you plan is the meta. I'd wager a large part of the reason you just don't hear it associated with Baldur's Gate very much is that it wasn't really in common usage in the late '90s and early '00s. (Even with something like Magic: the Gathering, where guys can't go two minutes without mentioning the meta. I used to play in the late '90s and I don't think I ever heard anyone use the word.)
    ThacoBellAndreaColombo
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,299
    While ring of protection +2 does offer a very big advantage in BG1, I disagree that rings of protection +1 are so nocive to the game:

    -There aren't so many of them till lategame except if you go to Durlag's,
    -Most people will still rather a +1(or more) armor, losing 1 to saving throws, but gaining some passive effect or a lot of weight. And yes, weight is important unless you have Dorn or Minsc around because they can carry a lot.
    -They take a ring slot. Not a big deal if you are playing a party of 6, but with a more restricted party there are a lot of good rings already.

    Some items are much more gamebreaking. The ankheg plate in Nashkel, Varscona, Ashideena, the dexterity gloves, and even that free Dagger+2, in terms of early availability, the Dagger of Venom, the light Crossbow of speed, the ogre gloves, the cursed hill giant strength belt, Albruin and I probably forget some, are all empowering your character beyond what it should be at that point.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,249
    TBH, I consider re-loading to be game breaking. Even without that, if one is throwing in max HP, auto spell learning, and no chunking, it is somewhat. No item or anything else do I consider coming close. B)
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 17
    Arunsun said:

    While ring of protection +2 does offer a very big advantage in BG1, I disagree that rings of protection +1 are so nocive to the game:

    -There aren't so many of them till lategame except if you go to Durlag's,
    -Most people will still rather a +1(or more) armor, losing 1 to saving throws, but gaining some passive effect or a lot of weight. And yes, weight is important unless you have Dorn or Minsc around because they can carry a lot.
    -They take a ring slot. Not a big deal if you are playing a party of 6, but with a more restricted party there are a lot of good rings already.

    Some items are much more gamebreaking. The ankheg plate in Nashkel, Varscona, Ashideena, the dexterity gloves, and even that free Dagger+2, in terms of early availability, the Dagger of Venom, the light Crossbow of speed, the ogre gloves, the cursed hill giant strength belt, Albruin and I probably forget some, are all empowering your character beyond what it should be at that point.

    The ogre gloves and the cursed giant of hill giant strength are both only available pretty late in the game. I don't think it's unreasonable that you'd start to accumulate some trinkets like that once you're in the city of Baldur's Gate. The game's almost over by then.

    The dagger of venom and light crossbow of speed also require a substantial financial investment. Most people probably don't buy them until at least the mid-game just because they don't wanna spend their whole fortune on a single trinket. And even when they do buy it I'm not sure they're "Empowering your character beyond what it should be at that point". The money's there by design. You've gotta spend it on something. I'm sure it occurred to the developers that the player would notice the shiniest trinkets in the weapons store and start saving up.

    There's even an unavoidable NPC who'll direct you to the Thunderhammer Smithy. It's not like you're using your knowledge as a veteran player to find something that most players would miss in their first go.
    Foxter
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 222

    Arunsun said:

    While ring of protection +2 does offer a very big advantage in BG1, I disagree that rings of protection +1 are so nocive to the game:

    -There aren't so many of them till lategame except if you go to Durlag's,
    -Most people will still rather a +1(or more) armor, losing 1 to saving throws, but gaining some passive effect or a lot of weight. And yes, weight is important unless you have Dorn or Minsc around because they can carry a lot.
    -They take a ring slot. Not a big deal if you are playing a party of 6, but with a more restricted party there are a lot of good rings already.

    Some items are much more gamebreaking. The ankheg plate in Nashkel, Varscona, Ashideena, the dexterity gloves, and even that free Dagger+2, in terms of early availability, the Dagger of Venom, the light Crossbow of speed, the ogre gloves, the cursed hill giant strength belt, Albruin and I probably forget some, are all empowering your character beyond what it should be at that point.

    The ogre gloves and the cursed giant of hill giant strength are both only available pretty late in the game. I don't think it's unreasonable that you'd start to accumulate some trinkets like that once you're in the city of Baldur's Gate. The game's almost over by then.

    The dagger of venom and light crossbow of speed also require a substantial financial investment. Most people probably don't buy them until at least the mid-game just because they don't wanna spend their whole fortune on a single trinket. And even when they do buy it I'm not sure they're "Empowering your character beyond what it should be at that point". The money's there by design. You've gotta spend it on something. I'm sure it occurred to the developers that the player would notice the shiniest trinkets in the weapons store and start saving up.

    There's even an unavoidable NPC who'll direct you to the Thunderhammer Smithy. It's not like you're using your knowledge as a veteran player to find something that most players would miss in their first go.
    The Dagger of Venom, however, completely neutralises mages, even if your backstab does not kill them. I do think some items could well be for sale that are moderately powerful, and more powerful items could for sale after you complete a quest for the merchant (to have both a time/risk and cost barrier of entry). At the moment, however, some the best in class items are for sale.

    I don't like items that simply change a stat to a fixed value, a +x makes the character underneath much more important. I get that 2nd edition (especially in strength) is a game where only the extremes matter, which does not make +x very easy. I consider this a flaw in the underlying system.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,703
    @SomeSort It's just odd to me because I spend a good ten hours a week writing about competitive meta for an internship – so I'm no stranger to the concept – yet I've played Baldur's Gate basically my whole life and I just don't see how discussing a meta for it could be interesting or enticing. There's too much of a random element, for one.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 12,067
    Drizzt150 said:

    Join my BG:EE game "Assassin's hard work"

    @Drizzt150 The best way to find people for a MP session would be to post in https://forums.beamdog.com/categories/multiplayer.
    lolien
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