Turn Undead Question

BelgarathMTH

Hello, I've been playing a lot of Neverwinter Nights 2 recently, and I realized that because of that influence, I don't know the difference between how turn undead works in that game versus BG.

Specifically, I've gotten used to the Charisma bonus being a factor in how many hit dice of undead I can turn. Does high Charisma in BG give any bonuses to turn undead ability?

Is everything purely based on cleric level versus undead level? What level would my cleric need to be to turn a vampire? What about a lich? Is there a d20 roll involved like there is in NWN?

Thanks.

JumboWheat01

According to the 2e handbook, it's purely a level thing, so I imagine the BG series handles it the same. And it seems like you need to be a minimum of a Level 6 Cleric in order to turn a Vampire, if you get lucky on a roll (20), and start doing it more consistently after level 10 (10 or higher on the roll.) I'm not sure if you'd ever be able to flat-out destroy it, though.

For a Lich, you need to be at least level 8, but don't start doing it more consistently until after level 14.

Oh, also, you're supposed to be able to do up to 2d6 undead when a successful turn happens, with the lowest HD undead being affected first.

Fardragon

No, charisma doesn't affect turning undead in 2nd edition rules, it is just level.

sarevok57

for the bg series you need to be double their level to destroy them out right ( if you're good alignment) or double their level to "charm" them ( if you're evil alignment) and if you aren't double their alignment ( but i guess higher than them in level ? ) they get scared instead and run away

@BelgarathMTH which nwn2 game are you playin?

semiticgoddess

A cleric can turn undead if his or her cleric level is greater than or equal to the undead's level. If you're a few levels higher (I believe 3-5 levels), an evil cleric can control the undead (I believe for 2 or 3 rounds), while a good or neutral cleric will instantly kill them.

These are typical numbers for the average undead's level in the IE games:

Skeleton: 1
Zombie: 1
Ghoul: 3
Ghast: 4
Wight: 5
Wraith: 5
Shadow: 5
Skeleton Warrior: something around 10
Vampire: 8-13 (fledgling vampires would be 8; Ancient Vampires would be 13)
Greater Mummy: something over 10
Lich: 20-27

Usually, you should be able to turn basic undead with little trouble, but you'd need to be fairly high level to turn vampires and near-epic levels to turn liches.

Paladins have a weaker turn undead ability. It might be 2, 4, or 8 levels behind a normal cleric. I think I've heard 2 or 4 levels, but 8 levels would match the 8-level caster level penalty that paladins and rangers suffer.

Shikao

Paladins (from Adventurer's Guide)

Turn Undead. Starting at 3rd level, the Paladin may turn and destroy
undead as though they were a Cleric two levels lower than their current
level in this class

There is also a great post by @Abel on this topic -> Link (although it was for IWDEE, I guess most values will be same for BG saga or maybe @Abel will be nice enough to make BG version of his post =P)

Kamigoroshi

How to Turn On Dead:

1. Warm your walking corpse up to soften its rigor mortis.
   
2. Make the dead feel you find its inner beauty still attractive.
   
3. Be the best version of yourself. Even the deceased have standards.
   
4. Be confident, even if you don't act like it. Only Jaheira wants a studdering hubby.
   
5. Perodically clean it up and keep preserving the corpse to slow down its rotting process.
   
6. Know how to treat a dead like a living.
   

Follow these few steps and even you will be able to turn on dead!

Grond0

I've just done a bit of testing on turn undead in BGEE and BG2EE. In summary:
- you need to have a turn undead level at least equal to the level of the undead to have a chance of turning them.
- chance of turning increases with level difference.
- once level is 5 above, e.g. a level 6 cleric against a skeleton, there is a chance of destroy / charm rather than turning.
- once level difference is 8 or greater destruction / charm becomes automatic.
- there don't appear to be any restrictions on numbers turned, e.g. here's a screenshot of over 20 shadows being destroyed instantly by a level 12 cleric (shadows are level 4).
- turning lasts for 1 round per turn undead level, though the effect can be aborted if creature scripts are triggered (for instance chasing a turned creature may prompt it to attack you if you get into melee range).
- as noted above paladins have a turn undead level 2 below their actual level (you can see that in the character record skills screen).

Raduziel

Here is Table 61 from the Player's Handbook:



Every TU affects 2d6 undead, starting from those with less HD. The single asterisk means that an additional 2d4 undead are turned. The double asterisk stands for "unique undead, free-willed undead of the Negative Material Plane, certain Greater and Lesser Powers, and those undead that dwell in the Outer Planes" also according to PHB.

So 20 shadows, according to PnP rules, is the maximum amount of shadows that a level 12 priest could destroy instantly.

Paladins turn undead as two levels lower priest would do.

In my kitpack the Undead Hunter turns undead as a priest of the same level and the cleric kit (Undead Redeemer) as a priest three levels higher.

Grond0

Raduziel said:

Here is Table 61 from the Player's Handbook:

Thanks for that. I don't think though that the chances in the table for P&P have been reflected unchanged in BG.

BelgarathMTH

Thanks for all the great answers, everyone.

I forgot a very important part of my question:

Do healing spells damage the undead in BG like they do in NWN? (And conversely, do inflict wounds spells heal them?) So, for example, could you reduce a lich to one hit point with a successful Heal spell, or heal it to full health with a Harm spell?

@sarevok57 , I just finished playing the OC with a cleric. I made a party and started with a cleric in Storm of Zehir, with myself as a cleric and the other three party members being copies I made of Khelgar, Neeshka, and Sand. (I didn't take the Leadership feat to get extra party members because I like to play IWD style games with a party of four pure classes.) I've got a cleric ready to go in MotB, and I'm torn whether I want to spend more of my gaming time right now on SoZ or MotB. I also am interested in trying Mysteries of Westgate. I've never played any of the official releases all the way through except for the OC.

I don't agree with the widespread opinion that NWN2 npc characters are bland or uninteresting. I find them just as well-written and interesting as the BG characters, especially Khelgar and Sand. It's nice to have a good-aligned fighter dwarf to play with as opposed to Kagain and Korgan. Neeshka is basically Imoen with horns and a tail.

Kamigoroshi

BelgarathMTH said:

I don't agree with the widespread opinion that NWN2 npc characters are bland or uninteresting. I find them just as well-written and interesting as the BG characters, especially Khelgar and Sand. It's nice to have a good-aligned fighter dwarf to play with as opposed to Kagain and Korgan. Neeshka is basically Imoen with horns and a tail.

Storm of Zehir has some of the more interesting core race companions. Like Grykk Bannersworn, Half-Orc Paladin by trade. Probably the only good alinged greenskin pally we ever saw in an D&D video game.

Raduziel

@BelgarathMTH AFAIK healing spells won't damage undead and negative energy (as inflict spells) won't heal them. It's a 3ed addition.

And if you're playing NWN2 I strongly recommend a mod called Path of Evil as A Hunt Through The Dark and Pool of Radiance Remake. There's a BG1 remake too, but I never played it.

BelgarathMTH

@Raduziel , I've played the BG1 remake. We've got a big thread about it buried somewhere in the forum archives.

Anduin

Kamigoroshi said:

How to Turn On Dead:

1. Warm your walking corpse up to soften its rigor mortis.
   
2. Make the dead feel you find its inner beauty still attractive.
   
3. Be the best version of yourself. Even the deceased have standards.
   
4. Be confident, even if you don't act like it. Only Jaheira wants a studdering hubby.
   
5. Perodically clean it up and keep preserving the corpse to slow down its rotting process.
   
6. Know how to treat a dead like a living.
   

Follow these few steps and even you will be able to turn on dead!

I didn't like this thread and was to vent my anger at clerics, paladims and the general anti-undead feeling that is VERY APPARENT in the forgotten realms...

Then I read this and everything is okay in the world...

Continue...

sarevok57

BelgarathMTH said:

Thanks for all the great answers, everyone.

I forgot a very important part of my question:

Do healing spells damage the undead in BG like they do in NWN? (And conversely, do inflict wounds spells heal them?) So, for example, could you reduce a lich to one hit point with a successful Heal spell, or heal it to full health with a Harm spell?

@sarevok57 , I just finished playing the OC with a cleric. I made a party and started with a cleric in Storm of Zehir, with myself as a cleric and the other three party members being copies I made of Khelgar, Neeshka, and Sand. (I didn't take the Leadership feat to get extra party members because I like to play IWD style games with a party of four pure classes.) I've got a cleric ready to go in MotB, and I'm torn whether I want to spend more of my gaming time right now on SoZ or MotB. I also am interested in trying Mysteries of Westgate. I've never played any of the official releases all the way through except for the OC.

I don't agree with the widespread opinion that NWN2 npc characters are bland or uninteresting. I find them just as well-written and interesting as the BG characters, especially Khelgar and Sand. It's nice to have a good-aligned fighter dwarf to play with as opposed to Kagain and Korgan. Neeshka is basically Imoen with horns and a tail.

if im not mistaken, healing spells will actually heal your undead, i've used mass cure in bg2 to watch my skellies regain HP

and in my opinion i like SoZ more than MotB, even though SoZ is a bit more grindy, i just find it more fun

PS: warlocks rule in SoZ ( actually they just kind of rule in general )