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Imoen (MASSIVE SPOILERS) (MASSIVE RANT)

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Comments

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 360
    ThacoBell said:

    @Mirandel Corruption isn't just bribes or mob connections. Charname was arrested and tried and faced execution based on literally zero evidence and in the case of some charnames (clerics anyone?) physically impossible circumstances, all because of a single duke and some shaky family history. Its incredibly corrupt, and for a good charname, even the other dukes realize its all bogus and personally orchestrate charname's escape, going so far as one of them personally explaining the situation.

    And this is exactly what was left out of the plot - HOW could that happen? Not to mention, Charname got arrested way before Eltar even new about death of his daughter, arrested not only for no reason but against any sane judgement of the event itself. Should there be personal forces of Eltar with free leave to arrest anyone on spot even in the war time - it would be understandable, but like this?

    Writers left out everything that could lead to the arrest: political games, crowd hate for charname, change of hearts of BG, ability of Eltar to run BG any way he wants, readiness of Eltar to blame anyone he wants for anything he wants, Eltar's hand in the army - everything. They (writers) probably thought that they left clues, but these are the clues not supported by story, lore or by game mechanic (unchanged reputation is only one example). These are the clues for someone, who wrote the script and changed it so many times he can skip pages and still perfectly understand the logic of events (and for whom rules of the game do not exist). The rest of us have to headcanon clues and reasons, suddenly ignoring lore and game mechanic, because instead of dramatic culmination we got dramatic stupidity. It ruins the otherwise good story.

    Artona
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,192
    Moving away from the trial I've gone back to have a look at the dialogue during the jailbreak. It is interesting because there does seem to be a suggestion that the Hooded Man himself may be involved in breaking you out.

    But before we get to that there is a moment where the Hooded Man turns up and incriminates himself for the murder of Skie in front of the Flaming Fist guard:





    The fact that the Flaming Fist guards don't react to this would suggest that they must be in the pay of the Hooded Man (however, they must be pretty good actors because prior to this they have been reviling you and hitting you for bringing shame on the city of Baldur's Gate).

    The Hooded Man then goes back to being portentous and informs you that you are going to escape from the jail:



    The Hooded Man then leaves and the Thief turns up to break you out of jail, informing you that Imoen paid him.



    However, when you find the corpses of the Flaming Fist guards you can express surprise that Imoen would be involved in something like this and the Thief's reply is somewhat evasive. It could be interpreted as saying he doesn't really know who is paying him:





    Now all of this could suggest that the Hooded Man is in fact the one who is behind your jailbreak. However, there are two problems with this:

    1. Imoen is waiting for you outside and has gathered your former friends to meet you.

    2. The game itself informs you that Imoen helped you escape:






    One explanation could be that the Hooded Man has engineered the situation and then somehow tricked Imoen into being involved in it.

    Another is that the whole thing is badly thought out and is an incoherent mess.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,796
    edited September 29
    Kurona said:

    chimeric said:

    Why on earth are you addressing this to me?

    Most likely he meant to type @chimaera but the forum auto-completed it to your name instead.
    Yup! Not the first time, nor likely the last either!

    @chimaera (double checks to make sure its right this time)

    Our interpretations simply differ, as your version makes little sense to me. Really though that's what makes these discussions so fun, the different viewpoints.

    @Permidion_Stark huh, is that flaming fist guard always there for you? The Hooded Man always visited my charname alone in the jail.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 463
    @ThacoBell Of course it doesn't make sense, that is the point. And it's not much of an interpretation (because mine is JonBon casting mass feeblemind), just listing the events as they are presented in game.

    Skie isn't a big name in BG1, where you can kill her without much trouble. Skie joins the military in secret, with only few people knowing. Skie isn't involved in the final battle against the devil hordes, charname is. Yet her murder causes bigger drama than the - prevented in the last moment - extraplanar invasion. And for all that Skie isn't a big name afterwards, as these news don't even make it past the borders.

    You haven't explained - and neither does the game - where her sudden rise to stardom comes from, in the context of the game.

    MirandelArtona
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 463
    Mirandel said:

    The rest of us have to headcanon clues and reasons, suddenly ignoring lore and game mechanic, because instead of dramatic culmination we got dramatic stupidity.

    I think this one sentence sums it up the best.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 419
    edited September 30
    ThacoBell said:

    Its incredibly corrupt, and for a good charname, even the other dukes realize its all bogus and personally orchestrate charname's escape, going so far as one of them personally explaining the situation.

    That's the sad thing about the "default" ending when you didn't play good enough / evil enough or didn't defend yourself in the game: There is no Duke coming to explain anything.
    At some point, even headcanon needs some input.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,796
    jastey said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Its incredibly corrupt, and for a good charname, even the other dukes realize its all bogus and personally orchestrate charname's escape, going so far as one of them personally explaining the situation.

    That's the sad thing about the "default" ending when you didn't play good enough / evil enough or didn't defend yourself in the game: There is no Duke coming to explain anything.
    At some point, even headcanon needs some input.
    I personally file this under, "The BG series has always assumed a good charname and any other path has always felt less when it comes to the story."

    @chimaera Its not a sudden rise, she has always been a minor celebrity by virtue of being a duke's daughter. How many celebrities that no one has really seemed to care about for awhile suddenly is getting news coverage solely because of their death? I suspect her joining the army also stopped being secret when it was convienant to convict a scapegoat.

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 486

    In BG you are accused of killing Reiltar and the Iron Throne delagation

    Damn straight! I killed the bastards and admitted it!

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 463
    edited October 1
    @ThacoBell
    This doesn't answer my question. Whether you consider her a minor celebrity or not, you can kill her in BG1 without much trouble. What I am asking for is pointing out the in-game explanation how you go from this point, to Skie's murder causing riots in the streets.

    The BG1 shows this 'minor celebrity' to be of litlle importance, where does SoD show this canon has changed, before the murder & trial happen? E.g. where are the folk gossiping about Skie's rise to popularity in the city? In BG1, when it comes to big news, you have messengers and you have the occasional NPC commenting on them. In SoD there are crickets chirping.

    MirandelArtona
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 419
    edited October 1
    ThacoBell said:

    I personally file this under, "The BG series has always assumed a good charname and any other path has always felt less when it comes to the story."

    No problem with that - I play good always. Still no-one explained anything to my PC. Not saying three more sentences at the trial changed the other Duke's opinion about CHARNAME so much they didn't even bother to explain the rep 20 paladin what is going on. Not very realistic.

    MirandelThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,796
    chimaera said:

    @ThacoBell
    This doesn't answer my question. Whether you consider her a minor celebrity or not, you can kill her in BG1 without much trouble. What I am asking for is pointing out the in-game explanation how you go from this point, to Skie's murder causing riots in the streets.

    The BG1 shows this 'minor celebrity' to be of litlle importance, where does SoD show this canon has changed, before the murder & trial happen? E.g. where are the folk gossiping about Skie's rise to popularity in the city? In BG1, when it comes to big news, you have messengers and you have the occasional NPC commenting on them. In SoD there are crickets chirping.

    The focus of BG1 is stopping the Iron Throne, finding Gorion's killer, and not being killed by assassin's yourself. Skie's political and social standing is not essential to the story, so it has no part. Its only when it becomes relevant to charname that it becomes a focus. Things happen "off-stage" in any story. Though SoD does it too often.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 773
    you also have to factor in that most people are never gonna use skie in bg1. even with mods that move npcs to earlier sections she and yeslick are stuck here they are due to plot reasons.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 463
    edited October 2
    ThacoBell said:



    The focus of BG1 is stopping the Iron Throne, finding Gorion's killer, and not being killed by assassin's yourself. Skie's political and social standing is not essential to the story, so it has no part. Its only when it becomes relevant to charname that it becomes a focus. Things happen "off-stage" in any story. Though SoD does it too often.

    You can sum up just about every missing explanation as "things happen off-stage", e.g. JonBon puts the belt on Imoen off-stage. This doesn't make a plot event any more believable, however. Even if Skie's standing is not central to the story, so what? It is still part of the canon established by BG1. Because that is what makes the trial drama so absurd; the authors have changed the canon backstage, but did not show this change in-game, arriving at the conclusion without any sort of build-up leading to it.

    scriver
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,796
    @chimaera "You can sum up just about every missing explanation as "things happen off-stage""

    Well, can you imagine if in BG1 we had to read paragraphs dedicated to Skie's popularity in Baldur's Gate? That would be MIND NUMBING. Off stage happenings for unimportant details is very common in storytelling of any kind.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 463
    ThacoBell said:

    @chimaera "You can sum up just about every missing explanation as "things happen off-stage""

    Well, can you imagine if in BG1 we had to read paragraphs dedicated to Skie's popularity in Baldur's Gate? That would be MIND NUMBING. Off stage happenings for unimportant details is very common in storytelling of any kind.

    Where did I ever suggest that we should have had paragraphs about Skie? What I have pointed out instead is that charname can kill Skie without much trouble in BG1. Considering in SoD this changes to 'charname is accused of her murder and riots break out in Baldur's Gate', then no, these are not "unimportant details".

    MirandelscriverArtona
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 360
    edited October 2
    ThacoBell said:

    @chimaera "You can sum up just about every missing explanation as "things happen off-stage""

    Well, can you imagine if in BG1 we had to read paragraphs dedicated to Skie's popularity in Baldur's Gate? That would be MIND NUMBING. Off stage happenings for unimportant details is very common in storytelling of any kind.

    Not really, at least not in any kind of good storytelling. Inconsistencies with previous canon is something every follower of any story will notes right away and point out with all twenty fingers. Even Bioware - pretty liberal with their canons - try to at least explain how next inconsistency happen.

    Besides, Illydth did not say a word about Skie importance (it's your headcanon correction - a good one (truly good!) if only was not against the lore). For a good reason - SoD never points out that importance at all, Skie is nothing but annoying burden for those who know about her presence in the army. According to Illydth the riot is about that "sign of Ball" and "a murder" that somehow goes with it. "A" murder - as of "any".
    I'd say, this was not thought out at all from the setting point of view. In a meaning "was not something anyone gave a second thought" because for modern society murder is the worst possible crime. Anything was supposed to fade away in light of that horror. Unfortunately, logic and common sense joined fading crowd and explanation for importance of that murder in that setting with that characters got lost in re-writings, cuts and deadlines.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,450
    I haven't really used Skie in BG so correct me if this is wrong.

    Don't you have a quest if you take Eldoth that means you take her/fake kidnap her?

    So if SOD makes a big deal of her murder as @ThacoBell says, doesn't that somewhat mess up the idea that Skie can disappear with Eldoth and then be with your group right through to killing Sarevok?
    Where was the outrage then?
    And wouldn't Eldoth, or even Charname, be far more circumspect about trying that with Skie because of the possible consequences?

    tbone1
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 773
    you need eldoth to even get skie if i remember right. thats why mods can move him but not her.

    KuronaThacoBell
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 772

    you need eldoth to even get skie if i remember right. thats why mods can move him but not her.

    Yes. If you talk to Skie without him in the party she will call guards to attack you. Even when she joins she never really bond with anyone, she just complains, get abused by Eldoth (but still defends him to Garrick) and occasionally fangirls on Shar-Teel.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,796
    @UnderstandMouseMagic Maybe she "disappears" fairly often. Like an angry five year old that runs away to the garage.

  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 821
    Anyone else like to break into the Duke's estate just to murder Skie because she is so annoying in SoD?

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 482
    Yulaw9460 said:

    In BG you are accused of killing Reiltar and the Iron Throne delagation

    Damn straight! I killed the bastards and admitted it!
    Doesn't that give you a non-standard Game Over during the Candlekeep Escape?

  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 772
    edited October 6
    Pokota said:

    Yulaw9460 said:

    In BG you are accused of killing Reiltar and the Iron Throne delagation

    Damn straight! I killed the bastards and admitted it!
    Doesn't that give you a non-standard Game Over during the Candlekeep Escape?
    Nope. You don't even need to be goaded into it by Koveras to do it. Even if you mistrust him so much he leaves without giving you the ring you can still take upon yourself to kill Rieltar and basically tell Tethoril that the bastard had it coming.

  • EnilwynEnilwyn Member Posts: 127
    Mirandel said:

    the first reaction is anger, of course. But then - is not it sad, that years pass by but nothing changes in game development?

    That's because depression comes after anger in the stages of grieving.

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