I always had the nagging feeling that the game was supposed to be standalone and only became an interquel somewhere along the way, possibly by WoTC mandate. It may be completely wrong of course, it's just a gut feeling.
I don't know. But your gut could be right because the one thing I thought the game had to explain - how the hell did I end up in Irenicus's dungeon? - doesn't get explained at all. Imoen just says I feel a bit funny and the game ends.
I was disappointed with how much interaction there was between charname and the Hooded Man. I loved the fact they got David Warner to come back for the installment but it really bugged me that he had multiple conversations with charname because much like what has been said about the impact of meeting Firkragg for the first time being diluted by the green dragon I felt that after having spoken with the hooded man so much and then awakening to his voice torturing you it should be OBVIOUS who it is and it taints the whole first meeting of Irenicus when the party clearly has NO CLUE who this guy is when it is obviously that weird hooded guy that's been stalking you for weeks asking questions.
I would have been much happier if they had limited his appearances to those scenes when he's dealing with Caelar and Hephernan and had more emphasis on his interest in Caelar rather than charname. When I first played BG2 I got the impression Irenicus had never met charname before and only knew that you were simply a Bhaalspawn.
I agree. He just kept showing up and basically saying the same thing over and over again. And each time he did I was thinking: "I want to hit this guy. How come I can't hit this guy?"
I was disappointed with how much interaction there was between charname and the Hooded Man. I loved the fact they got David Warner to come back for the installment but it really bugged me that he had multiple conversations with charname because much like what has been said about the impact of meeting Firkragg for the first time being diluted by the green dragon I felt that after having spoken with the hooded man so much and then awakening to his voice torturing you it should be OBVIOUS who it is and it taints the whole first meeting of Irenicus when the party clearly has NO CLUE who this guy is when it is obviously that weird hooded guy that's been stalking you for weeks asking questions.
I would have been much happier if they had limited his appearances to those scenes when he's dealing with Caelar and Hephernan and had more emphasis on his interest in Caelar rather than charname. When I first played BG2 I got the impression Irenicus had never met charname before and only knew that you were simply a Bhaalspawn.
Even before SoD there had been hints in BG1 of Irenicus (e.g. Centeol) and hints in BG2 that Irenicus had followed the PC before capturing him. It never was an incident that he took a specific pairs of bhaalspawns. Just the old hints were less obvious. (The hooded man himself is obviously copied/inspired from the old BG1 mod Drizzt-Saga, where some hooded man named *I.* and his vampiric sister already made their appearance). The selective kidnapping of PC's party is illustrated in the BG1 to BG2 transition in BGT since a decade. Nothing of that is really new or astonishing, just made part now of the *official* game.
Even before SoD there had been hints in BG1 of Irenicus (e.g. Centeol) and hints in BG2 that Irenicus had followed the PC before capturing him. It never was an incident that he took a specific pairs of bhaalspawns. Just the old hints were less obvious.
The hints in SoD I liked, like the connection to Lassal and thus in turn to Bodhi for example, but there's a big difference between vaguely hinting at a character's involvement and actually putting you face-to-face with said character as he harasses you repeatedly with not so subtle questions and statements about your divinity and potential.
When you think about it, the transition to Shadows of Amn does make more sense at the end of SoD than the end of BG1.
At the end of BG1, you're an unblemished hero in the eyes of all of Baldur's Gate, the one who exposed and defeated a man who wanted to destroy the entire city in a massive war. On top of that, basically no one knows you're a Bhaalspawn. After you defeat Sarevok, you are safer and more secure than you are in any other time in the entire trilogy.
At the end of Siege of Dragonspear, rumors about your nature as a Bhaalspawn have both spread and even been confirmed. Everyone knows it. Baldur's Gate and the entire region is in turmoil. You're also much more exhausted than in BG1, because you're not just going around doing undercover work; you're actually participating in a long march, a siege campaign, and an actual war. On top of that, you just had to scratch and crawl your way out of the Nine Hells. Worse yet, the region is crawling with supporters of Caelar Argent, people who would hate you even more for ending her crusade. You're weak, wounded, and everyone around you is constantly watching for a sign that you aren't really a hero--you're just like Sarevok. After all, your his brother, child of the same murderous father.
It's the ideal time for Irenicus to frame you for murder (hello, everyone now knows you're the child of the Lord of Murder) and the ideal time for Irenicus to try to capture you. Kidnapping you when you're a special guest in one of the richest cities in the world is far harder than kidnapping you when you're a pariah who's alone in the woods, exhausted by war and fleeing from a dungeon.
As a talented mage, Irenicus is probably strong enough to extract Charname from BG1 at the peak of their safety and fame. But he's definitely smart enough to bide his time and strike when Charname is at their absolute weakest.
Irenicus, after all, did not rely on his own strength to sack Suldannessellar. He only struck when he had drow and demons and rakshasas and golems to put the city in a weakened state.
Plus, if you vanished after beating Sarevok, Belt and the surviving leadership would try to find you. But after SoD, they're specifically hoping you won't show up again. Another factor that benefits Irenicus' plans.
Maybe I'm just being dense here but how does Irenicus framing you for murder help him to kidnap you? How does he know you are going to escape? I mean this is a prison so tough that even Imoen can't get past the guards?
I can see why he might want to besmirch your reputation but how does getting you locked up under heavy guard help him?
Do you really think the low to mid level dukes and the low level soldiers would be able to do anything that Irenicus did not want to happen? Just to execute an archmage's pet project and see how well that turns out for you.
@chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
@chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
Unless of course you become an evil god at the end of the series. The writing is definitely tailored towards good play, but you can still be a bad guy if you're really determined to do so. You just have to RP calculating evil, whereby a good reputation - or at least doing good deeds occasionally - is a means to achieving power.
@chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
Unless of course you become an evil god at the end of the series. The writing is definitely tailored towards good play, but you can still be a bad guy if you're really determined to do so. You just have to RP calculating evil, whereby a good reputation - or at least doing good deeds occasionally - is a means to achieving power.
That's only at the absolute end though. The story as a whole, is unchanged by your decision at the end.
ANOMEN: "I have been told a few things of your travels in the north and in Baldur's Gate in particular. Your adventures are...impressive, my lady. The equal of any great heroine."
It still works. He's a guy hoping to get laid. He's going to say what he thinks you want to hear.
Or maybe he's just basing his opinion on your Reputation score because mine was still 20 even after I had been imprisoned accused of murdering Skie and then been broken out by a thug who cut the throats of all the guards. Just to see what happened I went back and replayed the breakout. First I killed the thug who was helping me and then I killed all the Flaming Fist guys who came after me. Yep, still 20.
Skie murder is really not convincing reason for universal hatred.
Yeah, another thing I noticed as well: Anomens romance dialogue in BG2 hasn't been updated with SoD occurrences, by the way.
ANOMEN: "I have come to understand a few things of your past, and I have a question, if I might be permitted to pose it... "
1. "Go ahead and ask." 2. "What exactly have you heard?"
ANOMEN: "I have been told a few things of your travels in the north and in Baldur's Gate in particular. Your adventures are...impressive, my lady. The equal of any great heroine."
There's a line missing there. Something like "Oh, and I also heard that the entire city wants your head for slaughtering the daughter of a Grand Duke, but please, I'd rather hear of the magnificent crusade against the kobolds at Firewine Bridge."
You know, just to bridge the gap properly.
P.S. Rumors of Neb the childkiller reach Amn, and Chief Inspector Braga has a warrant for him, but not the protagonist? Makes sense. Really. Unless, of course, the entire city all decided they were better off with Skie in the ground, which actually makes total sense.
Rumours? Neb is in the city, killing children. You can meet him.
Do you really think the low to mid level dukes and the low level soldiers would be able to do anything that Irenicus did not want to happen? Just to execute an archmage's pet project and see how well that turns out for you.
@chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
But that is only because reverse is also true. A good aligned charname can murder innocents, but as long as they keep throwing money at temples, their reputation will be heroic and they will be referred as such in dialogues. The BG series just doesn't have the kind of reactivity, to be able to effectively weight between the sum of your actions.
(Btw, I wouldn't call killing all the slaves in the mine a 'selfish thing', charname willingly murders a bunch of innocent men here.)
This doesn't mean you should base game design decisions on the idea that charname is good. Because it only accentuates the series' weakness; the clumsy way alignment is treated.
That's kind of my point. The story only really works with a heroic charname. That's how it was built.
ANOMEN: "I have been told a few things of your travels in the north and in Baldur's Gate in particular. Your adventures are...impressive, my lady. The equal of any great heroine."
It still works. He's a guy hoping to get laid. He's going to say what he thinks you want to hear.
Or maybe he's just basing his opinion on your Reputation score because mine was still 20 even after I had been imprisoned accused of murdering Skie and then been broken out by a thug who cut the throats of all the guards. Just to see what happened I went back and replayed the breakout. First I killed the thug who was helping me and then I killed all the Flaming Fist guys who came after me. Yep, still 20.
Ata boy! Who dares to say Charname is not a hero!
Seriously, if the idea was to make Charname universally despised, hated and forgotten in the same time, reputation had to be dropped.
Seriously, if the idea was to make Charname universally despised, hated and forgotten in the same time, reputation had to be dropped.
Agreed. How much of a Reputation drop do you think killing (or being accused of killing) Skie should be worth? (And how much money would I have to donate to good causes for everyone to get over it?)
When you think about it, the transition to Shadows of Amn does make more sense at the end of SoD than the end of BG1.
I don't agree with you on that matter.
At the end of BG1, you're an unblemished hero in the eyes of all of Baldur's Gate (...). After you defeat Sarevok, you are safer and more secure than you are in any other time in the entire trilogy. (...) At the end of Siege of Dragonspear, rumors about your nature as a Bhaalspawn have both spread and even been confirmed. Everyone knows it. (...) You're weak, wounded, and everyone around you is constantly watching for a sign that you aren't really a hero--you're just like Sarevok. After all, your his brother, child of the same murderous father. It's the ideal time for Irenicus to frame you for murder (hello, everyone now knows you're the child of the Lord of Murder) and the ideal time for Irenicus to try to capture you. Kidnapping you when you're a special guest in one of the richest cities in the world is far harder than kidnapping you when you're a pariah who's alone in the woods, exhausted by war and fleeing from a dungeon.
This is an interesting approach, but the problem is that the game itself does nothing to support. At any point in Siege of Dragonspear, Irenicus seems to have trouble to reach you. He can talk to you whenever he pleases, and nobody seem to notice him, or be able to stop him. Hell, he can cast spells at Cealar herself at a peak of her power, at he suffers no consequences. He is able to enter your chamber in Duchal Palace (soon after Sarevok's attempt at coup took place) with no visible problem. He can invade your mind, he can control Skie, he can send you dreams. He can arrange transport of Sarevok's sword with nobody knowing it's him, he can conspire with Cealar's trusted advisor. So my point is that game at no point suggests that there are any limits to things he can do. I would agree with you, if we could witness a scene where Hooded Man says something like "now Charname is cherished hero of Baldur's Gate and kidnapping him would be harder. But if he was despised villain...". We get nothing like that. Instead, we are shown that he can whenever he wants, nobody can question him, nobody sees him except for us (unless he wants to be seen, judging from scene with Imoen). What you say is reasonable, but game provided no clue to believe it was a reason for trial-scene.
@scrivener That's not the point. Braga knows about Ned's terrible crimes in Baldur's Gate. Same as the dwarf you get the illythium ore from. Yet no one in Athaktla has heard about charname's murder of a duke's daughter.
Charname's trial and fall is a farce, because it is not something that gets ever acknowledged apart from those last few cutscenes in SoD. I agree with @Jastey, it's drama! for the sake of drama, with little substance behind it.
This is because Beamdog wasn't allowed to change BG2 to account for SoD (partly because contracts, and partly because SoD was released after BG2EE).
Which is precisely why something so large and dramatic was the wrong thing. News travels, and Amn was just as thankful to Gorion's Ward for preventing Sarevok's war as Baldur's Gate was. Any political issues tailing you out of BG should have followed you into Amn.
...so where are the modders changing dialog for BG2 to account for SoD, anyway?
Do you really think the low to mid level dukes and the low level soldiers would be able to do anything that Irenicus did not want to happen? Just to execute an archmage's pet project and see how well that turns out for you.
@chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
But that is only because reverse is also true. A good aligned charname can murder innocents, but as long as they keep throwing money at temples, their reputation will be heroic and they will be referred as such in dialogues. The BG series just doesn't have the kind of reactivity, to be able to effectively weight between the sum of your actions.
(Btw, I wouldn't call killing all the slaves in the mine a 'selfish thing', charname willingly murders a bunch of innocent men here.)
This doesn't mean you should base game design decisions on the idea that charname is good. Because it only accentuates the series' weakness; the clumsy way alignment is treated.
That's kind of my point. The story only really works with a heroic charname. That's how it was built.
And that is the point I disagree with.
In BG1 it is easy to play the hero. But consider how BG2's plot is set up. A good charname would race to Spellhold asap to save their childhood friend, and then race JonBon to stop him. Except this way the player loses out on a lot of game content. And then look at ToB: charname is hunted by your Bhaalspawn siblings, there is an evil plot unravelling, but let's make a detour to visit the infamous Watcher's Keep!
Tbh, I think canon charname is chaotic neutral and has the attention span of a gerbil.
No RPG story assumes a completionist playthrough. If that was the case, all final bosses would be impossible for the average player to beat. Its optional content, divorced from the main storyline.
Comments
I would have been much happier if they had limited his appearances to those scenes when he's dealing with Caelar and Hephernan and had more emphasis on his interest in Caelar rather than charname. When I first played BG2 I got the impression Irenicus had never met charname before and only knew that you were simply a Bhaalspawn.
At the end of BG1, you're an unblemished hero in the eyes of all of Baldur's Gate, the one who exposed and defeated a man who wanted to destroy the entire city in a massive war. On top of that, basically no one knows you're a Bhaalspawn. After you defeat Sarevok, you are safer and more secure than you are in any other time in the entire trilogy.
At the end of Siege of Dragonspear, rumors about your nature as a Bhaalspawn have both spread and even been confirmed. Everyone knows it. Baldur's Gate and the entire region is in turmoil. You're also much more exhausted than in BG1, because you're not just going around doing undercover work; you're actually participating in a long march, a siege campaign, and an actual war. On top of that, you just had to scratch and crawl your way out of the Nine Hells. Worse yet, the region is crawling with supporters of Caelar Argent, people who would hate you even more for ending her crusade. You're weak, wounded, and everyone around you is constantly watching for a sign that you aren't really a hero--you're just like Sarevok. After all, your his brother, child of the same murderous father.
It's the ideal time for Irenicus to frame you for murder (hello, everyone now knows you're the child of the Lord of Murder) and the ideal time for Irenicus to try to capture you. Kidnapping you when you're a special guest in one of the richest cities in the world is far harder than kidnapping you when you're a pariah who's alone in the woods, exhausted by war and fleeing from a dungeon.
As a talented mage, Irenicus is probably strong enough to extract Charname from BG1 at the peak of their safety and fame. But he's definitely smart enough to bide his time and strike when Charname is at their absolute weakest.
Irenicus, after all, did not rely on his own strength to sack Suldannessellar. He only struck when he had drow and demons and rakshasas and golems to put the city in a weakened state.
I can see why he might want to besmirch your reputation but how does getting you locked up under heavy guard help him?
@chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
I don't agree with you on that matter.
(...)
At the end of Siege of Dragonspear, rumors about your nature as a Bhaalspawn have both spread and even been confirmed. Everyone knows it. (...) You're weak, wounded, and everyone around you is constantly watching for a sign that you aren't really a hero--you're just like Sarevok. After all, your his brother, child of the same murderous father.
It's the ideal time for Irenicus to frame you for murder (hello, everyone now knows you're the child of the Lord of Murder) and the ideal time for Irenicus to try to capture you. Kidnapping you when you're a special guest in one of the richest cities in the world is far harder than kidnapping you when you're a pariah who's alone in the woods, exhausted by war and fleeing from a dungeon.
This is an interesting approach, but the problem is that the game itself does nothing to support. At any point in Siege of Dragonspear, Irenicus seems to have trouble to reach you. He can talk to you whenever he pleases, and nobody seem to notice him, or be able to stop him. Hell, he can cast spells at Cealar herself at a peak of her power, at he suffers no consequences. He is able to enter your chamber in Duchal Palace (soon after Sarevok's attempt at coup took place) with no visible problem. He can invade your mind, he can control Skie, he can send you dreams. He can arrange transport of Sarevok's sword with nobody knowing it's him, he can conspire with Cealar's trusted advisor.
So my point is that game at no point suggests that there are any limits to things he can do. I would agree with you, if we could witness a scene where Hooded Man says something like "now Charname is cherished hero of Baldur's Gate and kidnapping him would be harder. But if he was despised villain...". We get nothing like that. Instead, we are shown that he can whenever he wants, nobody can question him, nobody sees him except for us (unless he wants to be seen, judging from scene with Imoen).
What you say is reasonable, but game provided no clue to believe it was a reason for trial-scene.
Which is precisely why something so large and dramatic was the wrong thing. News travels, and Amn was just as thankful to Gorion's Ward for preventing Sarevok's war as Baldur's Gate was. Any political issues tailing you out of BG should have followed you into Amn.
...so where are the modders changing dialog for BG2 to account for SoD, anyway?