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Imoen (MASSIVE SPOILERS) (MASSIVE RANT)

1246

Comments

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,094
    Kurona said:

    I always had the nagging feeling that the game was supposed to be standalone and only became an interquel somewhere along the way, possibly by WoTC mandate. It may be completely wrong of course, it's just a gut feeling.

    I don't know. But your gut could be right because the one thing I thought the game had to explain - how the hell did I end up in Irenicus's dungeon? - doesn't get explained at all. Imoen just says I feel a bit funny and the game ends.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,094
    I agree. He just kept showing up and basically saying the same thing over and over again. And each time he did I was thinking: "I want to hit this guy. How come I can't hit this guy?"
    Mush_MushIllustairSkatan
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 758
    Mush_Mush said:

    I was disappointed with how much interaction there was between charname and the Hooded Man. I loved the fact they got David Warner to come back for the installment but it really bugged me that he had multiple conversations with charname because much like what has been said about the impact of meeting Firkragg for the first time being diluted by the green dragon I felt that after having spoken with the hooded man so much and then awakening to his voice torturing you it should be OBVIOUS who it is and it taints the whole first meeting of Irenicus when the party clearly has NO CLUE who this guy is when it is obviously that weird hooded guy that's been stalking you for weeks asking questions.

    I would have been much happier if they had limited his appearances to those scenes when he's dealing with Caelar and Hephernan and had more emphasis on his interest in Caelar rather than charname. When I first played BG2 I got the impression Irenicus had never met charname before and only knew that you were simply a Bhaalspawn.

    Even before SoD there had been hints in BG1 of Irenicus (e.g. Centeol) and hints in BG2 that Irenicus had followed the PC before capturing him. It never was an incident that he took a specific pairs of bhaalspawns. Just the old hints were less obvious. (The hooded man himself is obviously copied/inspired from the old BG1 mod Drizzt-Saga, where some hooded man named *I.* and his vampiric sister already made their appearance). The selective kidnapping of PC's party is illustrated in the BG1 to BG2 transition in BGT since a decade. Nothing of that is really new or astonishing, just made part now of the *official* game.
    JuliusBorisovThacoBellIllustair
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 330
    edited September 11

    When you think about it, the transition to Shadows of Amn does make more sense at the end of SoD than the end of BG1.

    At the end of BG1, you're an unblemished hero in the eyes of all of Baldur's Gate, the one who exposed and defeated a man who wanted to destroy the entire city in a massive war. On top of that, basically no one knows you're a Bhaalspawn. After you defeat Sarevok, you are safer and more secure than you are in any other time in the entire trilogy.

    Whether you are an 'unblemished hero' depends on whom you've played through the saga. I don't need to wait till the end of SoD for my charname to have a rotten reputation. Frankly, at this point in game (to clarify: after defeating Sarevok) the dear citizens of Baldur's Gate might be praying to whatever deity is listening that the 'hero' decides to go on another adventure. :wink:


    Post edited by chimaera on
    OrlonKronsteenMush_Mush
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 461
    @semiticgod Yea the general end game status was ok in concept, but the execution wasn't great imo.
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 6,351
    Plus, if you vanished after beating Sarevok, Belt and the surviving leadership would try to find you. But after SoD, they're specifically hoping you won't show up again. Another factor that benefits Irenicus' plans.
    ThacoBellPokota
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,094
    Maybe I'm just being dense here but how does Irenicus framing you for murder help him to kidnap you? How does he know you are going to escape? I mean this is a prison so tough that even Imoen can't get past the guards?

    I can see why he might want to besmirch your reputation but how does getting you locked up under heavy guard help him?
    Mush_Mush
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 461

    How does he know you are going to escape?

    ...and not get executed outright for murder.
    Permidion_StarkPokota
  • lefreutlefreut Member Posts: 655

    Plus, if you vanished after beating Sarevok, Belt and the surviving leadership would try to find you. But after SoD, they're specifically hoping you won't show up again. Another factor that benefits Irenicus' plans.

    You leave the city and then you are captured by Irenicus. Belt may think that you are on an adventure. For me, the transition works with or without SoD.
    MirandelPermidion_Stark
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 461

    Plus, if you vanished after beating Sarevok, Belt and the surviving leadership would try to find you.

    Eh tbh I don't think they would. Why would they want/need to find you? I would imagine they'd have more important things to deal with.
    Mirandel
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 330
    edited September 11

    Plus, if you vanished after beating Sarevok, Belt and the surviving leadership would try to find you. But after SoD, they're specifically hoping you won't show up again. Another factor that benefits Irenicus' plans.

    But that is based on the assumption you've played a hero, which does not hold true for every charname. If charname was evil and had a low reputation, I doubt the dukes would be dumb enough to assume that disposing of Sarevok was anything but personal. And there are some nasty deeds you can commit in the game that are bound to make waves, e.g. killing the slaves by flooding the mine. If you let that one guy go, he is likely to spread the tale of your villainy.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,011
    Mush_Mush said:

    How does he know you are going to escape?

    ...and not get executed outright for murder.
    Do you really think the low to mid level dukes and the low level soldiers would be able to do anything that Irenicus did not want to happen? Just to execute an archmage's pet project and see how well that turns out for you.

    @chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
    mf2112
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 302
    ThacoBell said:

    @chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.

    Unless of course you become an evil god at the end of the series. The writing is definitely tailored towards good play, but you can still be a bad guy if you're really determined to do so. You just have to RP calculating evil, whereby a good reputation - or at least doing good deeds occasionally - is a means to achieving power.
    Grond0Pokota
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 455
    Mirandel said:

    Skie murder is really not convincing reason for universal hatred.

    Yeah, another thing I noticed as well: Anomens romance dialogue in BG2 hasn't been updated with SoD occurrences, by the way.

    ANOMEN: "I have come to understand a few things of your past, and I have a question, if I might be permitted to pose it... "

    1. "Go ahead and ask."
    2. "What exactly have you heard?"

    ANOMEN: "I have been told a few things of your travels in the north and in Baldur's Gate in particular. Your adventures are...impressive, my lady. The equal of any great heroine."

    There's a line missing there. Something like "Oh, and I also heard that the entire city wants your head for slaughtering the daughter of a Grand Duke, but please, I'd rather hear of the magnificent crusade against the kobolds at Firewine Bridge."

    You know, just to bridge the gap properly.

    P.S. Rumors of Neb the childkiller reach Amn, and Chief Inspector Braga has a warrant for him, but not the protagonist? Makes sense. Really. Unless, of course, the entire city all decided they were better off with Skie in the ground, which actually makes total sense.
    StummvonBordwehrArtonaMirandel
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,011

    ThacoBell said:

    @chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.

    Unless of course you become an evil god at the end of the series. The writing is definitely tailored towards good play, but you can still be a bad guy if you're really determined to do so. You just have to RP calculating evil, whereby a good reputation - or at least doing good deeds occasionally - is a means to achieving power.
    That's only at the absolute end though. The story as a whole, is unchanged by your decision at the end.
    OrlonKronsteen
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 330
    edited September 12
    ThacoBell said:

    Mush_Mush said:

    How does he know you are going to escape?

    ...and not get executed outright for murder.
    Do you really think the low to mid level dukes and the low level soldiers would be able to do anything that Irenicus did not want to happen? Just to execute an archmage's pet project and see how well that turns out for you.

    @chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
    But that is only because reverse is also true. A good aligned charname can murder innocents, but as long as they keep throwing money at temples, their reputation will be heroic and they will be referred as such in dialogues. The BG series just doesn't have the kind of reactivity, to be able to effectively weight between the sum of your actions.

    (Btw, I wouldn't call killing all the slaves in the mine a 'selfish thing', charname willingly murders a bunch of innocent men here.)

    This doesn't mean you should base game design decisions on the idea that charname is good. Because it only accentuates the series' weakness; the clumsy way alignment is treated.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,094
    edited September 12
    Yulaw9460 said:

    Mirandel said:

    ANOMEN: "I have been told a few things of your travels in the north and in Baldur's Gate in particular. Your adventures are...impressive, my lady. The equal of any great heroine."

    It still works. He's a guy hoping to get laid. He's going to say what he thinks you want to hear.

    Or maybe he's just basing his opinion on your Reputation score because mine was still 20 even after I had been imprisoned accused of murdering Skie and then been broken out by a thug who cut the throats of all the guards. Just to see what happened I went back and replayed the breakout. First I killed the thug who was helping me and then I killed all the Flaming Fist guys who came after me. Yep, still 20.
    Mirandel
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,396
    Yulaw9460 said:

    Mirandel said:

    Skie murder is really not convincing reason for universal hatred.

    Yeah, another thing I noticed as well: Anomens romance dialogue in BG2 hasn't been updated with SoD occurrences, by the way.

    ANOMEN: "I have come to understand a few things of your past, and I have a question, if I might be permitted to pose it... "

    1. "Go ahead and ask."
    2. "What exactly have you heard?"

    ANOMEN: "I have been told a few things of your travels in the north and in Baldur's Gate in particular. Your adventures are...impressive, my lady. The equal of any great heroine."

    There's a line missing there. Something like "Oh, and I also heard that the entire city wants your head for slaughtering the daughter of a Grand Duke, but please, I'd rather hear of the magnificent crusade against the kobolds at Firewine Bridge."

    You know, just to bridge the gap properly.

    P.S. Rumors of Neb the childkiller reach Amn, and Chief Inspector Braga has a warrant for him, but not the protagonist? Makes sense. Really. Unless, of course, the entire city all decided they were better off with Skie in the ground, which actually makes total sense.
    Rumours? Neb is in the city, killing children. You can meet him.
    ThacoBell
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 330
    edited September 12
    @scrivener
    That's not the point. Braga knows about Ned's terrible crimes in Baldur's Gate. Same as the dwarf you get the illythium ore from. Yet no one in Athaktla has heard about charname's murder of a duke's daughter.

    Charname's trial and fall is a farce, because it is not something that gets ever acknowledged apart from those last few cutscenes in SoD. I agree with @Jastey, it's drama! for the sake of drama, with little substance behind it.
    Permidion_StarkMirandelIllustair
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,011
    chimaera said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Mush_Mush said:

    How does he know you are going to escape?

    ...and not get executed outright for murder.
    Do you really think the low to mid level dukes and the low level soldiers would be able to do anything that Irenicus did not want to happen? Just to execute an archmage's pet project and see how well that turns out for you.

    @chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
    But that is only because reverse is also true. A good aligned charname can murder innocents, but as long as they keep throwing money at temples, their reputation will be heroic and they will be referred as such in dialogues. The BG series just doesn't have the kind of reactivity, to be able to effectively weight between the sum of your actions.

    (Btw, I wouldn't call killing all the slaves in the mine a 'selfish thing', charname willingly murders a bunch of innocent men here.)

    This doesn't mean you should base game design decisions on the idea that charname is good. Because it only accentuates the series' weakness; the clumsy way alignment is treated.
    That's kind of my point. The story only really works with a heroic charname. That's how it was built.
    Mirandelmegamike15Permidion_StarkArtona
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 455
    scriver said:

    Yulaw9460 said:

    Mirandel said:

    Skie murder is really not convincing reason for universal hatred.

    Yeah, another thing I noticed as well: Anomens romance dialogue in BG2 hasn't been updated with SoD occurrences, by the way.

    ANOMEN: "I have come to understand a few things of your past, and I have a question, if I might be permitted to pose it... "

    1. "Go ahead and ask."
    2. "What exactly have you heard?"

    ANOMEN: "I have been told a few things of your travels in the north and in Baldur's Gate in particular. Your adventures are...impressive, my lady. The equal of any great heroine."

    There's a line missing there. Something like "Oh, and I also heard that the entire city wants your head for slaughtering the daughter of a Grand Duke, but please, I'd rather hear of the magnificent crusade against the kobolds at Firewine Bridge."

    You know, just to bridge the gap properly.

    P.S. Rumors of Neb the childkiller reach Amn, and Chief Inspector Braga has a warrant for him, but not the protagonist? Makes sense. Really. Unless, of course, the entire city all decided they were better off with Skie in the ground, which actually makes total sense.
    Rumours? Neb is in the city, killing children. You can meet him.
    Yes, rumors. The chef inspector knows of him. The cops in town just haven't caught him. Rumors of him have reached the city, obviously. He stop being a rumor the minut his head ends in my backpack.

    I'll admit that the law of Athkathla probably hasn't noticed him much, since violent crime is happening on pretty much every street corner with clockwork precision.
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 305

    Yulaw9460 said:

    Mirandel said:

    ANOMEN: "I have been told a few things of your travels in the north and in Baldur's Gate in particular. Your adventures are...impressive, my lady. The equal of any great heroine."

    It still works. He's a guy hoping to get laid. He's going to say what he thinks you want to hear.

    Or maybe he's just basing his opinion on your Reputation score because mine was still 20 even after I had been imprisoned accused of murdering Skie and then been broken out by a thug who cut the throats of all the guards. Just to see what happened I went back and replayed the breakout. First I killed the thug who was helping me and then I killed all the Flaming Fist guys who came after me. Yep, still 20.
    Ata boy! Who dares to say Charname is not a hero!

    Seriously, if the idea was to make Charname universally despised, hated and forgotten in the same time, reputation had to be dropped.
    Permidion_StarkArtona
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,094
    Mirandel said:

    Seriously, if the idea was to make Charname universally despised, hated and forgotten in the same time, reputation had to be dropped.

    Agreed. How much of a Reputation drop do you think killing (or being accused of killing) Skie should be worth? (And how much money would I have to donate to good causes for everyone to get over it?)
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 696
    @semiticgod
    When you think about it, the transition to Shadows of Amn does make more sense at the end of SoD than the end of BG1.

    I don't agree with you on that matter. :)

    At the end of BG1, you're an unblemished hero in the eyes of all of Baldur's Gate (...). After you defeat Sarevok, you are safer and more secure than you are in any other time in the entire trilogy.
    (...)
    At the end of Siege of Dragonspear, rumors about your nature as a Bhaalspawn have both spread and even been confirmed. Everyone knows it. (...) You're weak, wounded, and everyone around you is constantly watching for a sign that you aren't really a hero--you're just like Sarevok. After all, your his brother, child of the same murderous father.
    It's the ideal time for Irenicus to frame you for murder (hello, everyone now knows you're the child of the Lord of Murder) and the ideal time for Irenicus to try to capture you. Kidnapping you when you're a special guest in one of the richest cities in the world is far harder than kidnapping you when you're a pariah who's alone in the woods, exhausted by war and fleeing from a dungeon.

    This is an interesting approach, but the problem is that the game itself does nothing to support. At any point in Siege of Dragonspear, Irenicus seems to have trouble to reach you. He can talk to you whenever he pleases, and nobody seem to notice him, or be able to stop him. Hell, he can cast spells at Cealar herself at a peak of her power, at he suffers no consequences. He is able to enter your chamber in Duchal Palace (soon after Sarevok's attempt at coup took place) with no visible problem. He can invade your mind, he can control Skie, he can send you dreams. He can arrange transport of Sarevok's sword with nobody knowing it's him, he can conspire with Cealar's trusted advisor.
    So my point is that game at no point suggests that there are any limits to things he can do. I would agree with you, if we could witness a scene where Hooded Man says something like "now Charname is cherished hero of Baldur's Gate and kidnapping him would be harder. But if he was despised villain...". We get nothing like that. Instead, we are shown that he can whenever he wants, nobody can question him, nobody sees him except for us (unless he wants to be seen, judging from scene with Imoen).
    What you say is reasonable, but game provided no clue to believe it was a reason for trial-scene.
    MirandelPermidion_Stark
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 330
    edited September 12
    ThacoBell said:

    chimaera said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Mush_Mush said:

    How does he know you are going to escape?

    ...and not get executed outright for murder.
    Do you really think the low to mid level dukes and the low level soldiers would be able to do anything that Irenicus did not want to happen? Just to execute an archmage's pet project and see how well that turns out for you.

    @chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
    But that is only because reverse is also true. A good aligned charname can murder innocents, but as long as they keep throwing money at temples, their reputation will be heroic and they will be referred as such in dialogues. The BG series just doesn't have the kind of reactivity, to be able to effectively weight between the sum of your actions.

    (Btw, I wouldn't call killing all the slaves in the mine a 'selfish thing', charname willingly murders a bunch of innocent men here.)

    This doesn't mean you should base game design decisions on the idea that charname is good. Because it only accentuates the series' weakness; the clumsy way alignment is treated.
    That's kind of my point. The story only really works with a heroic charname. That's how it was built.
    And that is the point I disagree with.

    In BG1 it is easy to play the hero. But consider how BG2's plot is set up. A good charname would race to Spellhold asap to save their childhood friend, and then race JonBon to stop him. Except this way the player loses out on a lot of game content. And then look at ToB: charname is hunted by your Bhaalspawn siblings, there is an evil plot unravelling, but let's make a detour to visit the infamous Watcher's Keep!

    Tbh, I think canon charname is chaotic neutral and has the attention span of a gerbil.
    Permidion_StarkArtonaMirandel
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 396
    edited September 12
    chimaera said:

    @scrivener
    That's not the point. Braga knows about Ned's terrible crimes in Baldur's Gate. Same as the dwarf you get the illythium ore from. Yet no one in Athaktla has heard about charname's murder of a duke's daughter.

    Charname's trial and fall is a farce, because it is not something that gets ever acknowledged apart from those last few cutscenes in SoD. I agree with @Jastey, it's drama! for the sake of drama, with little substance behind it.

    This is because Beamdog wasn't allowed to change BG2 to account for SoD (partly because contracts, and partly because SoD was released after BG2EE).

    Which is precisely why something so large and dramatic was the wrong thing. News travels, and Amn was just as thankful to Gorion's Ward for preventing Sarevok's war as Baldur's Gate was. Any political issues tailing you out of BG should have followed you into Amn.

    ...so where are the modders changing dialog for BG2 to account for SoD, anyway?
    Mirandel
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,011
    chimaera said:

    ThacoBell said:

    chimaera said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Mush_Mush said:

    How does he know you are going to escape?

    ...and not get executed outright for murder.
    Do you really think the low to mid level dukes and the low level soldiers would be able to do anything that Irenicus did not want to happen? Just to execute an archmage's pet project and see how well that turns out for you.

    @chimaera The BG series only really nominally allow you to play evil. You can do some selfish things, but the story is utterly reliant on charname being heroic. No matter what, you prevent a war, no matter what you end another one, no matter what you end a siege on an elven city, no matter what you prevent an evil god from resurrecting. There is no really evil campaign in the series.
    But that is only because reverse is also true. A good aligned charname can murder innocents, but as long as they keep throwing money at temples, their reputation will be heroic and they will be referred as such in dialogues. The BG series just doesn't have the kind of reactivity, to be able to effectively weight between the sum of your actions.

    (Btw, I wouldn't call killing all the slaves in the mine a 'selfish thing', charname willingly murders a bunch of innocent men here.)

    This doesn't mean you should base game design decisions on the idea that charname is good. Because it only accentuates the series' weakness; the clumsy way alignment is treated.
    That's kind of my point. The story only really works with a heroic charname. That's how it was built.
    And that is the point I disagree with.

    In BG1 it is easy to play the hero. But consider how BG2's plot is set up. A good charname would race to Spellhold asap to save their childhood friend, and then race JonBon to stop him. Except this way the player loses out on a lot of game content. And then look at ToB: charname is hunted by your Bhaalspawn siblings, there is an evil plot unravelling, but let's make a detour to visit the infamous Watcher's Keep!

    Tbh, I think canon charname is chaotic neutral and has the attention span of a gerbil.
    No RPG story assumes a completionist playthrough. If that was the case, all final bosses would be impossible for the average player to beat. Its optional content, divorced from the main storyline.
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