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SoD Mod Wish List (Major Spoilers Throughout)

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Comments

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 702
    @tbone1
    That was my guess, but I don't think game gives any strong confirmation for that theory at any point.
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,037
    True, but it isn't like Irenicus would say "oh, you noticed me, too, that must mean X so therefore I will need to change my plans, which I will now reveal in my villain's exposition."

    Although Hollywood seems to think we actually all need that.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 892
    Artona said:

    I'm still not sure if anyone could see Hooded Man - with exception of Charname, Imoen and Cealar.

    In my playthrough also mod NPC Sandrah made remarks about that man's repeated appearances, many other NPCs just don't have much SoD contents at this time yet. I never had reason to believe that he was not visible for your whole party.
    On another topic:
    Not all NPCs automatically believed in the protagonists guilt of the murder, in those talks after you're found over the dead body. One of them in my party even stated that you were innocent but the authorities would be more than happy to blame you nevertheless - so there are some who see that it's a trap but no way to avoid it.
    Permidion_Starkverlaine
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 337

    Artona said:

    I'm still not sure if anyone could see Hooded Man - with exception of Charname, Imoen and Cealar.

    In my playthrough also mod NPC Sandrah made remarks about that man's repeated appearances, many other NPCs just don't have much SoD contents at this time yet. I never had reason to believe that he was not visible for your whole party.
    On another topic:
    Not all NPCs automatically believed in the protagonists guilt of the murder, in those talks after you're found over the dead body. One of them in my party even stated that you were innocent but the authorities would be more than happy to blame you nevertheless - so there are some who see that it's a trap but no way to avoid it.
    Who was it, do you remember? I even looked youtube PTs of others to find if I managed to assemble a group of total a****ls or this is universal reaction. Looked like you can convince some of them you might be innocent, but you have to work hard to do so.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,153
    @Permidion_Stark "Did they? I had Dynaheir and Jaheira in my party and I am sure they had DisplayStringHead-Texts saying something in the lines of "she would never do this"."
    I can second this. I've had Corwin, Jaheira, Khalid, M'khiin, Glint, Minsc, and Dyanaheir in my various runs through SoD, and they have never questioned my innocence.

    @Mirandel "So high profile, that has a final word on military planning and decisions. And not free to leave too, as I recall. "
    Charname never has the final word. You are regularly commanded by the generals and sent to infiltrate the compound via the underground river regardless of your thoughts on it. Heck in the parley with Caelar, you are vetoed on any decision that runs counter to anyone else in the meeting. Can you list any time Charname was able to make any decision on behalf of the militia? Refusing to poison the crusaders comes to mind, but DeLancie specifically pulls you aside away from all the other generals and officers to do so, implying tis under the table and off the record.

    "Unless he was shown (and he was not) a personal puppet of hooded man - he remains military."

    Bence is a huge jerk and kind of stupid. That's why :wink:

    I want to be clear here before I comment again. I'm loving this discussion and I'm not replying out of anger. I like hearing everyone's reasons for their feelings on the story.

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,192
    @ThacoBell
    I went back and checked and there are supportive overhead texts from Jaheira and Safana. I missed them because Edwin has got a spoken line and is calling the Charname "a cretinous baboon" at the time (which is exactly the reaction you might expect from him - his opinion of the Charname is pretty low at the best of times). However, if you don't defend yourself and tell the world what a great guy you are then Jaheira, Minsc and Dynaheir will assume your guilt when you escape from jail.

    I also tried the "You'll never take me alive copper!" option and attempted to fight my way out before the Flaming Fist could arrest me. You can get your whole party to join in with the fight but the Flaming Fist don't fight back and eventually Bence Duncan's dialogue is triggered. At this point my party stopped fighting but my Charname carried on hacking away at Bence. He appears to be unkillable (I guess he probably is as he is important to the plot) and so I just kept hitting him and since all the controls had disappeared I had no way to stop. I couldn't even find a way to get out of the game so eventually I had to turn off the computer.

    ThacoBell
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 337
    edited September 15
    ThacoBell said:


    Charname never has the final word. You are regularly commanded by the generals

    You are "commanded" the same way you can not join Caelan or refuse to go after Imoen in BG2. Usual plot railroading. In every other way you are still in command of your part of the army - the most mobile, it sims, and most for the fast short actions. In addition to refusal to poison (and blow up everyone, afaik) the final battle is up to you, the decisions about bridge is up to you - anything aside from the very fact that you have to fight is up to you. And in mini-quests within the camp your order people left and right.
    ThacoBell said:


    Bence is a huge jerk and kind of stupid. That's why :wink:

    He can be a clinical idiot with a Down syndrome on top and shrew on steroids for a personality, the point is - for months we are at war, minds are all set on we vs enemies, how to offend, how to defend, there is no room for strictly civilian things like murder. His only reaction can be "To arms! Perimeter breach!". Should he blame Charname for that - it would be fitting, but "crime"? Murder? It's so out of place they could as well blame Charname for stealing cookies at that rate.

    P.S. @Permidion_Stark Answered you about companions - no doubts about murder either, only pathetic "he is better than that" and even that shock reaction is washed away and replaced with believe you are guilty should you not actively defend yourself. And every one who comes to visit you in jail is demanding "tell me, you did not do it!". You call it "believing in your innocence"?
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,192
    Actually, I don't have a problem with the idea that you would be arrested for the murder of a Grand Duke's daughter. I think even in a time of war societies try to maintain law and order. My problem was that as soon as I walked up the steps after the battle with Belhifet and all control was taken away from me I thought "Oh here we go, I'm being railroaded." From that point on until the end of the game I was so annoyed that I was barely playing at all. I just kept getting more and more pissed off and couldn't wait for it to be over. And it was a shame because up to that point it had been an excellent expansion.

    I think it is a huge mistake to take agency away from players in an RPG. For me it totally ruins the experience because I am no longer playing my character, instead the GM has taken over control and is making me do what they want me to do so that it will fit with their plot. At that point it is game over as far as I'm concerned.
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,153
    @Mirandel "P.S. @Permidion_Stark Answered you about companions - no doubts about murder either, only pathetic "he is better than that" and even that shock reaction is washed away and replaced with believe you are guilty should you not actively defend yourself. And every one who comes to visit you in jail is demanding "tell me, you did not do it!". You call it "believing in your innocence"? "

    Actually my party members always supported me with the likes of, "Charname didn't do this, they are innocent." So yes, I would call that supportive. I imagine if I refused to defend myself at trial, they would be shocked and confused as well.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 892
    Here is a reaction that clearly shows that NPCs can have their own opinions. A clear statement and analysis of the situation after the murder: *We will have a hard time to prove your innocence* goes beyond those above quoted reactions.

    ~(Your healer's face is pale as she turns to you after having inspected Skie's corpse.)~
    Possible PC answers
    ++~Can you do nothing for her?~
    ++~What has happened here...is there anything to prove that things are not what they seem?~

    ~I know you did not kill her, even if you are unsure about yourself. The fact that bothers me is that the killer took Skie's soul. We will have a hard time to prove your innocence since we cannot restore the only witness we have.~
    ~The killer used something like a soultaker weapon, without the weapon that holds Skie's soul, I can do nothing for her.~
    Permidion_StarkMirandel
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,192
    @PaulaMigrate
    That's interesting. Do you have to click on the healer character to get the interaction? I didn't have a cleric in my party because Viconia had quit on me but Jaheira was with me and she was able to perform Harper's Call. Do you think she counts as a healer in this context?
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 892

    @PaulaMigrate
    That's interesting. Do you have to click on the healer character to get the interaction? I didn't have a cleric in my party because Viconia had quit on me but Jaheira was with me and she was able to perform Harper's Call. Do you think she counts as a healer in this context?

    Oh, you misunderstood. It's not any *healer* or cleric that has the dialogue but just one specific NPC who has these lines. If she's not in your party, you will not see the lines. And it's from a mod.
    It was just an example I found in my latest playthrough that shows that not all your companions are following stereotype reactions. The trap is quite clumsy, so why shouldn't some intelligent NPCs ask the same questions, like: where is the weapon? Who has an interest to frame charname? etc
    Or, like in this case, already see what will be coming, the fake trial to get rid of you.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,192
    @PaulaMigrate
    Right, I didn't realise it was from a mod. It's a good exchange and certainly would improve things but to be honest I dislike the ending so much I think the only option is to quit and export my character as soon as I get out of Avernus.

    That will actually work pretty well for me. The good bit of the story is over and the only thing I am missing out on is an heroic battle with a couple of Green Slimes and a plunge over a waterfall of sewage (which I'm sure must be a metaphor for something).
    Mirandel
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 892

    @PaulaMigrate
    The good bit of the story is over and the only thing I am missing out on is an heroic battle with a couple of Green Slimes and a plunge over a waterfall of sewage (which I'm sure must be a metaphor for something).

    To each his own...
    The issue I always have with those *skip this or that* is that you will get gaps in your story, miss events that are later referred to etc. This is just gameplay, so up to you.
    The more critical issue is with modded games. Example *skip Chateau Irenicus* - no problem for a vanilla game. Can break however quite a number of mods that either add NPCs here or have important events for the mod happening in those areas. But again, use the skip at your peril. It's just that you can't expect modders to provide alternatives for each skip you may use. There are a lot of continuity and compatibility issues whenever you skip a standard event. Just be aware of it.
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 337

    @PaulaMigrate
    That's interesting. Do you have to click on the healer character to get the interaction? I didn't have a cleric in my party because Viconia had quit on me but Jaheira was with me and she was able to perform Harper's Call. Do you think she counts as a healer in this context?

    Oh, you misunderstood. It's not any *healer* or cleric that has the dialogue but just one specific NPC who has these lines. If she's not in your party, you will not see the lines. And it's from a mod.

    It was just an example I found in my latest playthrough that shows that not all your companions are following stereotype reactions. The trap is quite clumsy, so why shouldn't some intelligent NPCs ask the same questions, like: where is the weapon? Who has an interest to frame charname? etc
    Or, like in this case, already see what will be coming, the fake trial to get rid of you.
    Precisely!!! WHY shouldn't some intelligent NPCs ask the obvious question?

    Glad mods try to improve things already, but please, tell me it's not only Sandrah mod but soem other mega (or not mega) mods as well!

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 892
    Mirandel said:

    @PaulaMigrate
    That's interesting. Do you have to click on the healer character to get the interaction? I didn't have a cleric in my party because Viconia had quit on me but Jaheira was with me and she was able to perform Harper's Call. Do you think she counts as a healer in this context?

    Oh, you misunderstood. It's not any *healer* or cleric that has the dialogue but just one specific NPC who has these lines. If she's not in your party, you will not see the lines. And it's from a mod.

    It was just an example I found in my latest playthrough that shows that not all your companions are following stereotype reactions. The trap is quite clumsy, so why shouldn't some intelligent NPCs ask the same questions, like: where is the weapon? Who has an interest to frame charname? etc
    Or, like in this case, already see what will be coming, the fake trial to get rid of you.
    Precisely!!! WHY shouldn't some intelligent NPCs ask the obvious question?

    Glad mods try to improve things already, but please, tell me it's not only Sandrah mod but soem other mega (or not mega) mods as well!

    A number of mods have started to take SoD into account now for something like *continuous* NPCs. I think that EET probably adds a bit to that. I haven't seen too much of it yet but I can imagine it will be coming. Would seem odd to me if some mod NPC would not react in an individual way to the event. In the long run, this may well evolve to one of those key scenes where every NPC has their line (like Tree of Life or Gorion's Ghost in ToB).
    Mirandelverlaine
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 775
    edited September 16
    Yes, I too would want to have the Skie plot more believable. I mean wth, I just saved the entire populace from total annihilation, not just once but twice. Also, I agree with @Mirandel's post that what would be the most likely reaction is that you were the one attacked, or at least both of you were attacked, anything other than you being the assailant, you deserve as much that benefit I believe as the "savior-hero" and as the commander. I could no longer remember the dialogue, but I remember the feeling of "wtf, this part has been very poorly done...it's very unconvincing (at least to me; it seems to others it is)." The entire execution to me was flawed; tbh, all I felt was disgust at that point like "Are you guys effing serious? All of you - your parents, your children, your spouse, your friends, and each and everyone of your loved ones - could be effing dead right now had it not been for me. I mean, at the very least, allow me to properly defend myself here (which IIRC was hardly given; in fact, I don't remember anything worthy that the protagonist was allowed to say during the trial given the dialogue choices), or at least give me the benefit of the doubt. I have no reason AT ALL to kill the girl, whom I had been in friendly relations, if anything so far (I know that motive and intent are different; but considering that all we have here are circumstantial evidence, at the very least, it becomes worth-considering)." Even the "KotOR trials" felt more like a real trial than this. Moreover, it's difficult to compare the protagonist to a politician or celebrity just because he is famous - he is much much much much much much much much much much much much more than that! My goodness, regardless of heritage, he SAVED EVERYONE TWICE! You are quite literally "the stuff of legends." It's really disappointing that no one stood on his behalf; everyone was against him (or those very few who aren't became mute). Everyone was simply too quick to condemn him, even though the evidence against him were anything but strong. I'm not sure, but I think even your companions, save the canon party, were suspicious, or at least had some doubts, against you? I understand the "devs had no choice" part - this story approach could have been fine; it's the execution that I found lacking.

    That among many others really; that's as far as I could remember, I don't want to hit up my SoD again just to make my opinion here. But there it is, that's my opinion that it was very unconvincing. But surely we can all agree that MORE damning evidence could have been laid here? It wouldn't hurt the story at all really, even for the others who find it convincing enough, to add more story element to have more damning evidence against the protagonist. A mod for that would be highly appreciated. Everyone would be happy. At any rate, it would be a mod that one may choose to disregard completely if it doesn't suit your taste.
    Post edited by Illustair on
    Mirandel
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 375
    edited September 16
    Another issue I have with the trial is how the 'fall from grace' is portrayed. Ok, my charname was a thief, I could see how the good citizens of Baldur's Gate would be quick to judge in his case. But what if charname was a ranger, a paladin or a good aligned cleric? Such classes are dependent on the powers their deity grants them. If a paladin or a ranger would kill someone innocent, that is already a reason for falling. And Skie was not only murdered, her soul was stolen from her. You'd think that the fact that charname's deity still chooses to bless them with their powers - even though they have supposedly committed this terrible crime - would clue someone in. Has JonBon secretly feebleminded everyone on the council?

    EDIT: I wonder whether the entire 'escape from the city' wouldn't work better without the trial. For example, while charname was off to defeat Caelar & co, the shadow thieves (on behalf of JonBon) could be slowly turning the populace against them. Spreading false rumors about them being a bloodthirsty Bhaalspawn like Sarevok etc. By the time charname came back to the city, the situation would be out of control, with riots breaking out on the streets and people calling out for their blood. At this point:

    - If charname is good or neutral with a high reputation, the dukes would ask them to leave the city, in order to avoid an uprising that would result in many being hurt or killed. The dukes know that charname is innocent, but with the with streets full of rioting people, they are trying to prevent a bigger tragedy - even if it is unjust to the hero of Baldur's Gate. The dukes arrange for the help of the thieves' guild to smuggle charname out of the city. If you aren't playing the canon party already, this is where the others from JonBon dungeon join to help.

    - If charname is evil or neutral with low reputation, Imoen arranges with the local thieves' guild to smuggle them out of the city. Charname might be very powerful, but there are literally thousands of people on the streets who want the Bhaalspawn killed. Might be the time to do a runner. The 'canon party' NPCs join at this point, because Imoen asked for their help. I don't think either Jaheira and Khalid (who were Gorion's friends) or Dynaheir (who is a lawful good character; Minsc just follows what she does), would allow for charname to be killed by an angry mob without a just trial.

    This would literally shorten the end game to two cutscenes: the conversation with the dukes or Imoen, followed by the ambush during the escape.
    Post edited by chimaera on
    Permidion_StarkIllustairMirandel
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 775
    edited September 17
    But my dream mod I guess would be a massive stronghold expansion, say, conquer and control the entire Shadow Thieves guild operations, not just a "chapter" or a small division of it.

    Edit: Oops, sorry I forgot that this is an SoD mod wishlist. Small SoD mods for quest fixes/tweaking would suffice, like I thought the "spy within the camp" sidequest needs some tweaking; I can't remember the details but I do remember the feeling of that there was something wrong with that quest, idk if it was the same "unconvincing" feeling - I think it was more on the dialogue, and how you had to solve the problem leaving him (was it to report him and expecting him to be still there?) there upon discovery that he is a spy. Can someone remind me? All I know is that I'm certain that that quest breaks the immersion for me.

    Same with the Glint's cousin where you have to beat him up, I tried everything I could to solve that question, but I simply couldn't. I brought him to every corner of the map where I think that the area is "clear" and just couldn't successfully complete the quest, IIRC I even tried polymorphing, silencing him and other disabling spells so that he couldn't call for help - same, I get the reputation drop. This quest deserves multiple solutions. Perhaps this needs fixing? Am I the only who had trouble with the quest? I was so pissed with that quest.

    Ability to recharge the goggles?
    Post edited by Illustair on
    Permidion_Stark
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 3,192
    Illustair said:

    Edit: Oops, sorry I forgot that this is an SoD mod wishlist. Small SoD mods for quest fixes/tweaking would suffice, like I thought the "spy within the camp" sidequest needs some tweaking; I can't remember the details but I do remember the feeling of that there was something wrong with that quest, idk if it was the same "unconvincing" feeling - I think it was more on the dialogue, and how you had to solve the problem leaving him (was it to report him and expecting him to be still there?) there upon discovery that he is a spy. Can someone remind me? All I know is that I'm certain that that quest breaks the immersion for me.

    Same with the Glint's cousin where you have to beat him up, I tried everything I could to solve that question, but I simply couldn't. I brought him to every corner of the map where I think that the area is "clear" and just couldn't successfully complete the quest, IIRC I even tried polymorphing, silencing him and other disabling spells so that he couldn't call for help - same, I get the reputation drop. This quest deserves multiple solutions. Perhaps this needs fixing? Am I the only who had trouble with the quest? I was so pissed with that quest.

    Ability to recharge the goggles?

    I think there may be a bit of a glitch in the spy in the camp sidequest because even though I had solved it and got the experience (and as as far as I recall the spy had been executed?) I still kept finding evidence that I was supposed to take to the guy in charge. I think investigations are very hard to pull off in a game like this because it is very hard to create a real mystery to solve.

    With the Glint's cousin plot I certainly didn't have to beat him up. I can't remember exactly what happened but I think maybe I suggested he should leave the camp. I can't recall exactly how it went but I was playing a paladin so would have been taking whatever seemed closest to the Lawful Good options in the exchanges. I didn't have Glint in my party. Maybe that makes a difference?

    Illustair
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,153
    "With the Glint's cousin plot I certainly didn't have to beat him up. I can't remember exactly what happened but I think maybe I suggested he should leave the camp. I can't recall exactly how it went but I was playing a paladin so would have been taking whatever seemed closest to the Lawful Good options in the exchanges. I didn't have Glint in my party. Maybe that makes a difference?"

    I just told Glint that I wouldn't do beat someone.
    Illustair
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 775
    Yeah I think that's the approach where you don't get to have the stiletto reward, right? Anyway, I remember now that you can lure him somewhere by lying to him, which was perhaps a cue from the game that you can beat him up somewhere where he can't shout for help. Doesn't work. Well, perhaps this has been fixed already; it was during the early months of SoD.

    But I guess at the top of my wishlist for SoD would be to have more tactical or strategic options for the war/battles. That I think is where the strength of SoD lies - the battles were epic (a little too epic at times though that I wonder, are we really mid-level heroes, so much so that it somewhat trivializes the SoA if you get what I mean; nonetheless, I did thoroughly enjoy the battles). I can't think of anything specific, but I'm sure modders with more creative minds can make the battles more interesting by expanding it, or creating more options to make it more interesting.
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 869
    After reading everything throughout this post, I completely forgot to add that I would love a couple more NPCs in the game, such as a Dwarf "Fighter" type of some kind, and maybe a couple more side quests. I love how the BG games like to tie in the aspect of wandering and exploring, and while I can understand why there might be a lack of it here, I think there could be room for more.

    To add more to the conversation about the trial at the end of the game, honestly I don't think it was that awfully put together, maybe just a tad rushed. At the beginning, there were a couple dissenters who were guessing that you had the same blood as Sarevok, so there was already some unease about you established. Not to mention there was Boreskyr Bridge event, which solidified that unease and drove those who were confident about you into paranoia.

    It does seem that the populace of this universe (the humans anyways) DO act very similar to humans IRL, and frankly, masses of people are easy to dupe and manipulate. You see it all the time with our celebrities and heroes. People LOVE to hate former heroes, and the fact that you've been established as a bhaalspawn pretty much puts you in the dog house, no real evidence needed... BY THE PUBLIC

    My real issue with the ending are the Dukes, specifically Belt and Liia. Whether or not you're a Bhaalspawn shouldn't matter to them as much because BESIDES the fact that you cannonically saved their lives from Sarevok's attack during his crowning, but they themselves weren't hurt by what happened to Skie. I can definitely buy Entar's reaction, but not the lack of defense from the other two

    LASTLY, the soultaker dagger just not being there is a HUGE hole for me. the reason why: you were pretty much caught RIGHT AFTER the murder, how in the world would you have had time to stash the weapon SO SECURELY that no one would have been able to find it? Then of course, that isn't listed as evidence whatsoever during your trial. Add to that the lack of motive (besides you're a child of bhaal) and you have a pretty weak reason for BELT AND LIIA to be okay with your imprisonment.

    Sorry for long post, but I kind of live for discussions like these XD
    Permidion_StarkThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,153
    @Xavioria " and you have a pretty weak reason for BELT AND LIIA to be okay with your imprisonment."

    Depending on your actions, they aren't. Belt personally broke my charname out.
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 869
    @ThacoBell I think that's pretty amazing (and I'm curious of how Lawfully good you'd have to be) but my inability to understand stems from the fact that you were imprisoned in the first place, does he explain why you were or does he just come to break you out?
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,153
    @Xavioria You basically need to perform at least three heroic actions (the game keeps a checklist of certain quests) and mention at least three of them during your defense at the trial.
    Belt says that he basically went along with the mob at the trial and imprionsioned you to prevent an immeidate riot. He also mentions that about half the city believes your innocence as well and are likely to try and free you. Belt and Jannah send you out quietly with an escort to both save you and keep things calm in the city.
    Xavioria
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 380
    Yeah, that ending is cool and closes some of the holes SoD introduces (souldagger anyone?).
    The "other" ending a PC acting neutral / chaotic would get is not so good at explaining anything, unfortunatly. I'd really like to know what made the devs design the evil assassin ending the way they did.
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