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Any new info on Icewind Dale II?

MusaabMusaab Member Posts: 92
Has there been any success in even finding out what happened to the source code?

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Comments

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    there is a non zero chance that the source code, at some point, was written
    beyond that I'm not sure of anything

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    Beamdog has searched for the source code and even reached out to the general citizenry via Twitter, but it seems that, in the 15 years since the game was made, the source code has finally been lost. Wherever it was stored, those storage spaces have not been maintained. It's not too surprising--I personally don't have any of my old data from 2002, and we're talking about a game created by a studio that no longer exists, and a company that no longer uses the Infinity Engine.

    It's theoretically possible that the code might turn up. But it's extremely unlikely, and until it does, IWD2:EE is not happening.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • MusaabMusaab Member Posts: 92
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 424
    IWD2 converted to the current EE might be a more viable solution. Convert the whole game, without the feats&skills system and you can have the IWD2 EE. Is not like the 3E rules are actually mandatory for IWD2.

    Kits can be adapted, even feats can be emulated by HLAs.

    And by the looks of things IWD1 source code was not needed either, when they made IWD EE. The game was simply converted to EE (taken from BG2).

    Dev6
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,158
    Much of the ground work for IWD:EE had already been done by David W at Gibberlings of course, which made the process a little bit more economically viable. I'd also be happy to see it in the 2nd edition system but that may require too much work.

  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 424
    Mantis37 said:

    Much of the ground work for IWD:EE had already been done by David W at Gibberlings of course, which made the process a little bit more economically viable. I'd also be happy to see it in the 2nd edition system but that may require too much work.

    I am not a big fan of G3s. They were quite trashy towards me, back when I started my own IWD1 fixpack, before theirs. I offered to have my fixes included in theirs, but they were far more interested in fixing scripts for squirrels...

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,161
    Redrake said:

    IWD2 converted to the current EE might be a more viable solution. Convert the whole game, without the feats&skills system and you can have the IWD2 EE. Is not like the 3E rules are actually mandatory for IWD2.

    Kits can be adapted, even feats can be emulated by HLAs.

    And by the looks of things IWD1 source code was not needed either, when they made IWD EE. The game was simply converted to EE (taken from BG2).

    No no no. The kinda 3e rules are central to IWD2.

    AedanO_BrucekanisathaKamigoroshi
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,796
    Icewind Dale 2 in it's original state is already in the best shape of the 5 out of the box. There is a minor fixpack, and that's about it. The only major bug I know of is that the ent battle will crash the game if you are running above 800×600 resolution, and you can switch it back to a higher one afterwards.

    If it's source code is lost, it won't get done. The Heroes of Might and Magic 3 remaster doesn't include the expansions for the same reason, the files are just gone. Keep in mind that although these games now have legendary status, Black Isle and New World Computing were essentially small companies making games they wanted to play. The idea that the code got lost over the last two decades is totally believable.

    semiticgoddessMathsorcerer
  • MusaabMusaab Member Posts: 92
    How could such a great game be made, and then just "lost". I refuse to believe it isn't out there.

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,211
    Musaab said:

    How could such a great game be made, and then just "lost". I refuse to believe it isn't out there.

    And I still hope that Ultima VIII: The Lost Vale will surface at some point... Honestly, you would be surprised by how crappy many major software companies (especially games) were at keeping backups of their stuff.

    ThacoBell
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 424

    Icewind Dale 2 in it's original state is already in the best shape of the 5 out of the box. There is a minor fixpack, and that's about it. The only major bug I know of is that the ent battle will crash the game if you are running above 800×600 resolution, and you can switch it back to a higher one afterwards.

    If it's source code is lost, it won't get done. The Heroes of Might and Magic 3 remaster doesn't include the expansions for the same reason, the files are just gone. Keep in mind that although these games now have legendary status, Black Isle and New World Computing were essentially small companies making games they wanted to play. The idea that the code got lost over the last two decades is totally believable.

    In another thread one of Beamdog team members admitted that they didn't even need the IWD1 source code, they adapted the game using the already existing EE, which is basically BG2 engine.

    This is also obvious if you compare the original IWD1 game with the EE version.

    - Items in the original IWD did not use EFF
    - The pathfinding from IWD1 is absent in EE, instead we have the less performant BG2 one
    - The icons for spells are the ones from BG2 and not as one would expect, from IWD1
    - Character arbitration was completely not included (and this means that the source code for IWD1 was not even touched, only the BG2 one)
    - Reputation does not exists in the original IWD1, it was not even possible to add it when modding the original game, as the source code did not include it
    - The dialogs always address to the PC, even though this should be alright only in BG1&2. In IWD1, originally the NPCs would talk directly only to the character who they see first or who begins talking to them.

    semiticgoddessDev6
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 424

    Character arbitration?

    The possibility to change team members while in-game. This was possible in IWD1. In BG1&2 this was not possible, except by saving the game and then moving it the savegame to multiplayer folder and re-opening the savegame in multiplayer mode.

    Now in IWD EE you can remove team members, but because there's no character arbitration you cannot add new characters.

    semiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    If you find it difficult to believe that the IWD2 source code could be lost, start searching your computer and see how many files you have from 15 years ago.

    I have none. The oldest file on my computer is from 2007.

    JuliusBorisovStummvonBordwehr
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,161
    @Redrake IWD2 is not IWD1. It's engine is MUCH more different from BG than IWD1 was. Its not a simple port.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,125

    If you find it difficult to believe that the IWD2 source code could be lost, start searching your computer and see how many files you have from 15 years ago.

    I have none. The oldest file on my computer is from 2007.

    While I find it really easy to believe that the IWD2 source code is in fact lost (and I do not think IWD2:EE could be made from the BG engine), I feel compelled to point out that I have pretty much all my files going back to the early 90s.

    semiticgoddesstbone1Balrog99lolien
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859

    If you find it difficult to believe that the IWD2 source code could be lost, start searching your computer and see how many files you have from 15 years ago.

    I have none. The oldest file on my computer is from 2007.

    While I find it really easy to believe that the IWD2 source code is in fact lost (and I do not think IWD2:EE could be made from the BG engine), I feel compelled to point out that I have pretty much all my files going back to the early 90s.
    I have lots of files that'd be from the 80s, so there.

    I apparently have some junk I should toss!

  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 424
    ThacoBell said:

    @Redrake IWD2 is not IWD1. It's engine is MUCH more different from BG than IWD1 was. Its not a simple port.

    Actually no. Not that different. Over time, I imported items from IWD2 to IWD1 and even in reverse, added items and maps from IWD1 to IWD2. Also, at first IWD2 was supposed to have kits similar to BG2.

    OTOH, the real reason IWD2 EE is more difficult to do, is because IWD1 itself was nothing more than TuTu. IWD converted to BG2, under the EE umbrella. If you would try to make IWD2 EE converted to IWD1 system, you wouldn't have such issues. Like I said, character arbitration, one of the things Beamdog dropped apparently because it caused conflicts to EE.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,161
    Redrake said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @Redrake IWD2 is not IWD1. It's engine is MUCH more different from BG than IWD1 was. Its not a simple port.

    Actually no. Not that different. Over time, I imported items from IWD2 to IWD1 and even in reverse, added items and maps from IWD1 to IWD2. Also, at first IWD2 was supposed to have kits similar to BG2.

    OTOH, the real reason IWD2 EE is more difficult to do, is because IWD1 itself was nothing more than TuTu. IWD converted to BG2, under the EE umbrella. If you would try to make IWD2 EE converted to IWD1 system, you wouldn't have such issues. Like I said, character arbitration, one of the things Beamdog dropped apparently because it caused conflicts to EE.
    3E is an integral part of the IWD2 experience. You might as well make BG1 a dating sim.

    DreadKhantbone1kanisatha
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 719
    edited October 2017
    I'd rather have a 2E IWD2EE than no IWD2EE at all.
    Ammar said:

    Honestly, you would be surprised by how crappy many major software companies (especially games) were at keeping backups of their stuff.

    Were? That made me laugh. :)

    tbone1Redrake
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    There is also the legal side of things. If significant changes to gameplay where made, permission would be required from the licence holder, which is Hasbro. And Hasbro would almost certainly insist that if a different edition ruleset where to be used, it must be 5th.

    ThacoBellDev6Pokota
  • RedrakeRedrake Member Posts: 424
    ThacoBell said:



    3E is an integral part of the IWD2 experience. You might as well make BG1 a dating sim.

    IWD2 as a game yes. IWD2 story, no.

    There are no quests that require a certain feat. Skills, yes, but those quests can be modified. Kits, races and classes can be added.

    The whole array of animations from IWD2 are already ported to IWD1 EE.

    UI? Just take a look on how they managed to port PST into EE.

    IWD2 despite it's different look has similar CRE, DLG, 2DA, BCS and BAM with the other games.

    So, basically if you port IWD2 to EE, all you are missing are the feats&skills. Feats can be integrated into HLAs.
    Skills might need more work on, as the whole concept of skills is different from 2E to 3E.



    Now, let's say that if by some magical means Beamdog gets their hand on the mythical source code for IWD2.

    What do you think they are going to do with it, that does not involve all of the above work? It would definitely mean re-building a new EE for 3E and before you know it, everyone would ask for BG1&2 to be re-made into IWD2 3E EE.
    Yes, it might make the work easier to fix the skills and feats system and maybe add more. But it would also open a large can of worms, because of the other games in 3E, NWN1 and 2. Those had a large number of skills, feats and classes. Before you know it, Beamdog would get assaulted to add them in IWD2EE.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe the IWD2 source code is lost, maybe is not. Maybe the whole idea of making IWD2 3E EE is opening another Pandora's box.

    I'd say best to let it stay lost, but please make a sub-form for IWD2 where we can discuss the modding of this great game. I made a fixpack (non-weidu) and an UB component which later got included, partially in Almateria's Restoration Project. I would definitely like to see more interest in modding the game.


  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 959

    If you find it difficult to believe that the IWD2 source code could be lost, start searching your computer and see how many files you have from 15 years ago.

    I have none. The oldest file on my computer is from 2007.

    I do. Quite a number of them actually. I did a search with the criteria of before Nov. 30th, 2002.

    Although it's kind of a little difficult because I have a lot of old DOS games. I can think of at least a dozen such games I have on my computer off the top of my head, and probably have more. Primarily from Microprose. The oldest files I've found are for a DOS game from 1989 on my computer (MinerVGA). Also about a year ago I dug up a copy of the first computer game I EVER played in my life, from 1990. It's a 65 kB exe and that's all there is to it. Amazing how far we've come in the last few decades.

    That said, I do have a number of files that I personally created from 15+ years ago. For example, most relevant to this board, my original BG 1+2 character pics date to 2000. A lot of stuff from the SCA and EQ1, my main time-wasters from 2001-2005. College stuff from my first bachelor's. Stuff like that.

    I built my current desktop computer in 2009, and it's my third desktop since 2000, so stuff has only had to go through 2 iterations of transfers. Probably going to have to get another desktop soon though. AND I still have both my previous desktops at my parent's house, so neither have been lost. In fact, I still have the original Dell monitor there as well. And even more, my keyboard is from that Dell. Yeah, I've been using the same keyboard for over 17 years. The mouse, unfortunately, died about 10 years back, I'm on my third one.

    So, I packrat and I prefer older games.

    Redrakesemiticgoddess
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,161
    @Redrake You're STILL talking about removing a major feature of the game. This changes the nature of it.

    Aedansemiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    I wouldn't mind losing out on all the 3E stuff, myself. I think it would be a very new and cool experience just to play IWD2 with a 2E engine.

    It would certainly be a lot more balanced!

    RedrakeBalrog99Dev6Stromael
  • MusaabMusaab Member Posts: 92
    So sad that this will not be made.

    ThacoBell
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 719
    I asked them in one of the recent twitch livestreams if they had any news about the IWD2 source code and unfortunately they don't.
    All we can do at this point is hope for the best.

    Musaab
  • QueenLolth6969QueenLolth6969 Member Posts: 1
    Question: I still have 2 copies of the Icewind Dale 2 retail disk (Boxed Editions) from when they released ... would that count as source code or not?

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