Weapons for backstabbing

parrker

I just beat BG and going to start BG2 with the same character, half-orc fighter/thief. I put all my skill points into traps, hide in shadows and moving silently, and really enjoyed backstabbing with my 19-20 point strength.

Being a fighter/thief, I can't add more than 2 points in any weapon proficiency, so I chose short swords and Single-Weapon Style, and it worked well enough. Going into the SoA, I am thinking about specializing in something new, but I have no idea what weapons are going to be there. Also, I've no idea which weapons can and can't be used for backstabbing.

I really don't want to use quarterstaffs, because of my picked fighting style, but also because my charname is a neutral-evil assassin/mercenary who loves to sneak behind his target's back and kill with a quick move of a blade. I just don't see how a quarterstaff fits into this role.

Elendar

A thief can only backstab with clubs, daggers, long swords, short swords, scimitars, wakizashis, ninjatos, katanas, and staves.

There is nothing wrong with short swords, really.. I would go with two-weapon style as you level up and get more points instead, though. Nothing can beat dual wielding damage-wise. You lose out on the extra crit chance from single weapon style, but unless you're going to use an invisibility potion or ring and try to backstab again in the fight, you'll do much better with dual wielding. You could also backstab with a single weapon, then toss another weapon onto your offhand for the remainder of the fight if you don't mind taking the time and effort to do that.

There is a good short sword, Kundane, that is great for the off-hand, which adds an extra attack.

Longswords and scimitars are also good options. Longswords are plentiful in the game and there is a scimitar called Belm that gives an extra attack like Kundane. And of course if you know where to find a certain katana called Celestial Fury that is certainly an option too.

jsaving

Any weapon that can be used by a singleclass thief can be used for backstabbing. It's a shame the interface doesn't highlight those weapons for you during character generation, because it's fairly easy to come up with an axe or bastard sword build only to realize several hours into the game that backstabbing isn't working. (The quickest way to see which weapons work with backstabbing is to start the character generation process for a singleclass thief, get to the screen where you choose your weapon proficiencies, and then see which ones you can pick. If you can put a star in it as a singleclass thief, you can backstab with it.)

Katanas and longswords would be fairly standard weapon choices for fighter/thieves in BG2, though there are some decent shortswords as well.

parrker

Great advices, guys.

Is there any point in choosing daggers at all?

Permidion_Stark

Daggers can be a good choice in BG2 because the same proficiency covers throwing daggers as well as melee weapons and there are some really good magical and poisoned throwing daggers in BG2. So choosing Daggers gives you a double whammy as it were.

Skatan

Returning throwing daggers, of which there are two good options in BG2, can be used in melee in the mainhand for 2 APR as well, similar to the Kundane short swords and the Belm scimitar, but opposite to them you can't equip it in the offhand (no throwing weapons allowed in that hand). This means you can very quickly switch between ranged attacks to melee if/when enemies come close. You will also get the single weapon style bonus if you don't have anything in your offhand, ie shield or another weapon, but still you get an added attack per round that together with specialization and level 7 fighter gives you 3 attacks per round as base, which is very good.

Another not insignificant point about daggers is their speed, making you break stealth and attack very quickly. Sometimes using a slower weapon makes you stand around for a few seconds between you clicking the attack button and the character actually swinging the weapon and backstabbing. Seldom an actual issue though, but faster is always better (and more convinient).

For a fighter/thief though, unless your roleplaying limits it, one of the best parts is your ability to use so many different weapons for different situations. But if you want to roleplay and don't allow yourself to use ie quarterstaffs (there are some EXCELLENT qstaffs available in both BG1 and 2, just FYI), you can imagine that whacking someone from behind with a club is similar to using a baton or a blackjack. There are some decent clubs in BG2 as well, so this could be an option for you to have a blunt weapon dealing that kind of weapon damage.

Shortswords deals piercing damage which is good vs certain enemies, ie leather wearing. Slashing weapons as scimitars, katanas and longswords are good on average vs most enemies, but some enemies it's just plain better to use blunt weapons vs. These enemies can sometimes also be the same kind enemy which you cannot backstab, like certain undead with high resistances vs ie piercing damage.

Aerakar

Daggers are a great choice for a high strength F/T half orc in BG1 and also in BG2, for both ranged and melee. I agree with @Skatan 's suggestions for sure. Go with clubs for your blunt if quarterstaffs don't do it for you. BG2 has some good clubs available early.

If you are not against mods, Rogue Rebalancing mod has an extra thief items component which adds some thiefly weapons (including additional not over-powered clubs). It is an excellent mod for thief play-throughs.

If you specialized in short swords and SWF in BG1, what did you do with your other 2 pips, e.g. short bow?

OrlonKronsteen

There is also the Dagger of Venom in BG2:EE.

jsaving

For backstabs you want weapons with high base damage so it will get multiplied, and hopefully some sort of incapacitate/slow effect as well so you can neutralize your enemy if they somehow survive the backstab.

parrker

Aerakar said:

If you specialized in short swords and SWF in BG1, what did you do with your other 2 pips, e.g. short bow?

Yep, before I got my THAC0 to a decent value, I relied heavily on short bows.

CamDawg

One of the big benefits to using a two-handed backstabbing weapon like a staff is the weapon style bonuses. You get the expanded critical hit range, like single-weapon style, but you also get a damage bonus, on top of the fact that base damage for two-handed weapons is typically higher.

Staves are the only two-handed option for thieves, unless you want to go with mods--Tweaks can make katanas two-handed, for example, or let multiclasses put more than two pips in a weapon...

parrker

@CamDawg Is it going to have really that big of a difference in SoA and later ToB? I mean, when I get my 9th Thief level, the backstab multiplier will rise to 4x, and with 20 strength and 10% chance of critical strike, and maybe some additional buffs from my cleric, wouldn't that be good enough for instant kill with a short sword or scimitar?

CamDawg

Sure, it's a fairly marginal tradeoff between an extra point of damage or an AC bonus; the former is more my personal preference. In ToB especially, most of the folks you really want to backstab are immune so you'll end up in regular melee more than you want. Having an extra bit of damage is more important to me, especially when I'm under a Greater Whirlwind. (Even better is laying spike traps everywhere, but I digress.)

My last F/T run I finally gave staves a go, and I was impressed with how many good staves are available. You get a +1 staff early from Silke in BG. Two of the very rare +3 weapons in BG are staves, and the Staff of Striking in particular is perfect for backstabs. In BG2 you can get the Staff of Rynn +4 very early (and fairly cheap) and then can transition later to the Staff of the Ram.

All that being said, though, save it for a future run--it sounds like you've got a fun character with 1H weapons. I'd suggest you save one pip for clubs, because while there's not exactly an exciting collection of thief clubs in BG2 you'll still need something blunt for the inevitable clay golems.

Aerakar

Staves (coupled with two-handed style for that +1 damage and expanded critical range) are really good for a backstabbing thief. Blunt damage type also is often better, as your opponents have less or no resistance to blunt in most cases and few if any blunt AC modifiers, so you hit more easily and do damage more easily.

I played an assassin early last year using staves as a primary weapon for the first time. I was impressed by the consistently higher damage during backstabs from a mere 1-6 damage weapon. The quarterstaff did make a noticeable difference in damage output, both backstabbing and in general melee (much more than I expected). In subsequent runs I have remained hooked on quarterstaffs for thief variants (and also throwing daggers for my main ranged weapon, but that is another thread!).

Also, as noted already by @Camdawg , you get the +3 and +4 staves early in both games, which both help tremendously your 'to hit' rolls early on.

Aerakar

But as was suggested, SWS and short sword or scimitar (or katana or longsword or even dagger) all are just fine for backstabs. I agree with Camdawg, add on clubs so you have a single hand blunt and leverage your SWS pips since you already invested in them. Nothing wrong with SWS!

You could also add on TWF. With 2 pips you are set (the 3rd is nice but not urgent at all). Adding TWF also somewhat compensates for the loss of backstabbable bosses in ToB.

DreadKhan

A nice thing about sws is if you use gww with it. You get 10 attacks with your preferred weapon, which can be better than 9 main and 1 offhand, especially since you get +1 to crits. Underrated imho.

For bg2, if you're into sws and need a bludgeoning high power weapon choice vs enemies immune to backstab anyways, take flail. Fota +5 is huge, and its pretty solid with GWW vs high powered enemies.

Clubs allow backstab, flails allow the use of more a powerful weapon.

rede9

Elendar said:

A thief can only backstab with clubs, daggers, long swords, short swords, scimitars, wakizashis, ninjatos, katanas, and staves.

Does it matter if with or without HLA Use Any Item?

CamDawg

rede9 said:

Elendar said:

A thief can only backstab with clubs, daggers, long swords, short swords, scimitars, wakizashis, ninjatos, katanas, and staves.

Does it matter if with or without HLA Use Any Item?

Only weapons usable by single-class thieves can be used or backstab, so you're out of luck with stuff like the Staff of the Magi for backstabs.

Elendar

rede9 said:

Elendar said:

A thief can only backstab with clubs, daggers, long swords, short swords, scimitars, wakizashis, ninjatos, katanas, and staves.

Does it matter if with or without HLA Use Any Item?

Even with Use Any Item, you can only backstab with weapons that a single class thief is able to use. Too bad, because backstabbing with Carsomyr sounds fun.

rede9

So (except Staff of the Ram), is the best option Blackrazor & Angurvadal dual weapons ?

Elendar

rede9 said:

So (except Staff of the Ram), is the best option Blackrazor & Angurvadal dual weapons ?

Angurvadal would be a good main hand weapon if you want to use longswords exclusively. For off-hand I personally prefer something like Belm or Kundane for an additional APR. When you're backstabbing, the main hand is always used, so no need to worry about that. Of course, by ToB, a lot of enemies are immune to backstabs.

DevardKrown

if you already got single weapon style consider going for daggers ...
the +2 and +3 magical returning throwing daggers do both have a melee mode in which single weapon style works.

they also have TWO basic attacks per round , adding your fighter bonuses you float around 3-4 attacks per round with a single weapon (5 is the maximum unless improved haste is used)

they also both can be used by a single class thief (pre requisition for backstabbing)

if you bring a arcane spellcaster for haste along you even max out on 5 APR
2APR Dagger, 1APR Fighterlvl13, 1 APR bracers and weapon proficiency together and 1 APR normal haste giving you 5 backstabs in your opening round.

make sure to at least throw one pip in clubs so you have a backup for piercing immune enemy's.

and if you meet an enemy that needs more than a +3 weapon you can still get the +5 Dagger of the Star , loses out on the extra APR but has 15% chance to make you invisible and a 5% chance to do 1d8 fire+electrical so it sorta compensates.