Cleric or Druid as an offensive caster?
Legend
Member Posts: 36
Hey everyone,
Basically, I'm stuck between what class to roll for a playthrough of the Baldur's Gate trilogy, time old conundrum I know!
I'd like to play a caster, that much I'm sure. But I really, really want to avoid relegating my charname to a buff/healbot. So ideally, I think I'd like to play as a more offence oriented caster.
Now I know Mages and Sorcerers are the 'best' choice here by a wide margin (at least, that's what I believe) - but my question is, how do Druids and Clerics stack up in this role?
To be clear, I'm asking about their casting abilities, I don't want to play, for example, a cleric, who buffs him/herself up to monstrous fighter proportions and then bashes heads in. Instead, I'm asking basically if it's more-or-less feasible to have a Cleric or Druid pew-pew-ing enemies with their actual spells, throughout the entirety of the trilogy.
Basically, I'm stuck between what class to roll for a playthrough of the Baldur's Gate trilogy, time old conundrum I know!
I'd like to play a caster, that much I'm sure. But I really, really want to avoid relegating my charname to a buff/healbot. So ideally, I think I'd like to play as a more offence oriented caster.
Now I know Mages and Sorcerers are the 'best' choice here by a wide margin (at least, that's what I believe) - but my question is, how do Druids and Clerics stack up in this role?
To be clear, I'm asking about their casting abilities, I don't want to play, for example, a cleric, who buffs him/herself up to monstrous fighter proportions and then bashes heads in. Instead, I'm asking basically if it's more-or-less feasible to have a Cleric or Druid pew-pew-ing enemies with their actual spells, throughout the entirety of the trilogy.
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Thanks for the comment though!
lvl Cleric Druid Winner
1 Magical stone Entangle Druid
2 Hold person Charm POM Landslide by cleric
3 Glyph of warding Call lightning
Smite / Blight Summon insect Landslide by druid
4 Domination Summon nymph Landslide by druid
5 Flamestrike Insect plague Hmmm... not sure
6 Blade barrier Doloros decay
Sols orb Fire seeds
False dawn Cleric
7 Symbol stun Natures beauty
Sunray Creeping doom
Finger of death Again, not sure
Avenger adds web to lvl 2, making druids win, and chain lightning to lvl 6, again making druids win.
Now, I have run solo black pits with all manner of clerics and druids, and I can easily pick a winner; shapeshifter druid. Once you run out of spells, or is cornered or somesuch, you transform into a werewolf. At very low levels, the high str and 2 APR, and relatively high AC makes shapeshifters probably the most formidable combatant out there, including fighters (but of course, they then start lagging behind fighters before long).
However, this is valid for BG1 and the beginning of BG2 only as unfortunately, you only get 1 greater werewolf charge at (lvl 13), instead of transforming your "normal" werewolf shifts into greater werewolf, and the claws DO NOT count as +4 weapons like they are supposed to do, and since so many creatures are immune to non-magical damage shapeshifters REALLY REALLY starts to lag behind. And that is not even mentioning the insane XP curve between lvl 13 and 15 (750 000, 1,5 mil, 3 mil) AND druids can ONLY dual with fighters, not mages and thief's like clerics can. Also, please to be noted that clerics will be lvl 21 when druids reach lvl 15. Clearly, the original devs wanted you to HATE druids.
So, basically. If you play BG1, then druid all the way. If you play BG2, then perhaps cleric, unfortunately. I want to say druid, I really do, because I like druids, but the XP penalty and non-compatibility with other classes really sinks druids quite a lot. Also, if you play a cleric, you can be a cleric of Talos, which gives you lightning bolts as innate abilities.
An alternative is stalker (to lvl 13) --> cleric, which gives you haste and backstab (which is nice) and more APR or beastmaster --> cleric, which gives you animal summoning as low level spells for the cleric.
Edit: Arrghhh my table! My table! It inflated!
Also, check out Acolytes, who are less-martial, more-magey spellcasters with more spells but less frontline capabilities. My favourite is the Acolyte of Beshaba.
I highly recommend this mod, this mod is truly a wonder and a joy to play. I'll never play another game without it.
Level 1: Clerics: Command is amazing and wins some nasty fights through BG1. Power Word: Lay There And Take It. All attacks against the target auto hit, auto damage, and they can't do squat in return, with no save unless the target is level 6 or above.
Sanctuary gets special note since it's the best invisibility spell in the game, which is always a perk for an offensive caster looking to get into position.
Druids get a root which is fairly lame at low levels, and fairly lame, but better than Command, at high levels.
Both get Doom, Doom is awesome. -2 to saves for 10 rounds is great. Not sure if it's a luck penalty or not, but if so it also penalises the damage they deal by reducing damage die rolls.
Level 2: Clerics: Hold Person allows a save, and can't target everyone, but most things you'll face are "people", and as an AOE if you hold even one out of a group you're contributing pretty well for a level 2 spell.
Chant: While a "buff", Chant is a mini AOE doom for your enemies within range as well as a mini AOE bless for your allies. Combined with doom (and cast from a well positioned Sanctuary to start off) it's -3 to saves and a big boon to getting off those save or sucks.
Silence: Cast off screen to shut down mages (potentially before they put up globes of invulnerability) with a hefty save. Pretty solid.
Druids get: Disappointment.
Level 3: Holy Smite is actually one of the better attack spells as a decent size party friendly AOE that deals Magic damage. The number of targets that are evil or good that you'll have to deal with are pretty low, and you can always be a (chaotic) neutral Cleric of Talos for a few doses of Lightning.
They also get Animate Dead, which is about as good as you'd expect for a level 5 mage spell.
They also get Glyph of Warding, which is a lightning damage skull trap with a save for none. If you can layer five or six on a choke point before a combat it can be okay, otherwise Holy Smite is more reliable. If you're planning to solo Karoug, amassing these is pretty much your only plan, since you can give yourself protection from lightning and just lure him into the kill zone.
Druids get: Call Lightning, which is single target, casts one bolt every ten rounds, and can only be cast outdoors. Basically for most fights it's a Flame Strike, two spell levels earlier, with extra flame strikes if you're taking ten rounds or more to kill something.
Also Summon Insects, the anaemic little brother of the three, save at -4 or take 21 damage, 50% casting failure (on top of the DoT) and some penalties to AC and to hit. Ehhh.
Both get: Dispel Magic and enough slots to consider taking it. Druids are better dispellers early on thanks to their levelling rates, while Clerics outpace them and take the gold as the best dispellers in the game at higher levels (along with Bards).
Level 4: Clerics get: Mental domination. A save or charm at -2. Druids get this via the Nymph along with a grabbag of other stuff.
Druids get: Summon Nymph, giving them access to hold person, hold monster, and some other dross. Very efficient for a level 4 spell slot.
Clerics and Druids both get Poison, which can actually do very decent damage and shut down mages with the 10 round DoT, but only if they whiff the save. Worth noting that it uses a death save, which is the Mage's worst save, so if you can combine this with Doom and Chant you can actually have a pretty decent chance of landing the hit. Basically a slightly beefier (124 damage cast at level 17) Summon Insects with an easier save.
Level 5: Clerics: Flame Strike: Weaker Call Lightning, but indoors. Woo.
Greater Command: This one is actually heavily underrated but great. It's an AOE sleep without a level cap. Mage drop a Malaison, Cleric drop a Greater Command, and you've taken out half of the enemy group on average.
Druids get: Godspell #1: Insect Plague is one of the best spells in the game (hence why Mages get it). Six enemies within 30' take 18 damage, take multiple saves against 1 round horror, and automagically fail at spellcasting.
Level 6: Clerics: Aerial servant is actually kind of a bruiser, immune to normal weapons and invisible to help them from being targeted.
Blade Barrier: Damned if I know the difference between "attempting to pass through" and "already in", but combined with movement and their probably decent AC the cleric can wander around dealing 8d8s of damage for ten rounds while still doing other stuff at the same time.
Bolt of Glory: Single target 6D6 to normies, 10D6 to demonkin, 8D6 to Undead, bugger all to elementals doesn't sound good at first, but this spell ignores MR, which gives it some niche utility.
False Dawn is situational, but undead are pretty common and like to come in large numbers, so eh.
Druids get: Fire Seeds to give to the party fighter for weak 2d8 fireballs.
Fire Elementals are a great beefy summon with +4 punches and +1(?) weapon immunity. Neat.
Both get Harm, which is amazing. Combine Harm with stun for a guaranteed hit if you're not feeling very charitable.
Both get Physical Mirror, which turns archers attacking them into archers attacking themselves.
Both get Wondrous Recall, which can be pretty awesome, especially if the spells being recovered are more Insect Plagues.
Level 7: Clerics get: Gate. Gate is tricky to deploy and control, but the fiend is actually immune to Death Spell, unlike elementals or other summons, which makes it a good stop gap until HLAs when you're gating in Devas instead.
Finger of Death: 2D8+20 damage with a -2 Save or Die attached. Save or Dies are a sometimes food, but again, death is the mage's worst save, and -2 gives a 50% chance of instantly removing said mage for a single spell.
Holy Word: It's no Nature's Beauty, but no save 10 rounds of 50% spell failure is not to be sneezed at, and anything under level 7 is dead or basically dead to boot, again, most targets are evil but neutral characters can switch to unholy analogue as needed, meaning only neutral living targets get to avoid this.
Symbol of Stun: Save vs Spell at -4 or stunned for at least 8 rounds in a 30' AOE. Combine, again, with your buddy mage for Malaison, Chant, and you can swing entire combats.
Druids get: Another elemental for, I assume, redundancy.
Creeping Doom, again for, I assume, redundancy, but it's comparatively lame. It's a shortened caster disable, with no limit to target number, and deals 36 damage, which isn't stellar. Insect Plague is actually better since you're not generally bringing the bees for the damage.
Nature's Beauty: Godspell #2: Definitely blind everyone, if they die, gravy. Blind is ridiculously powerful, so is this.
Both get: Earthquake: A -6 save or suck with some damage attacked isn't bad at all. 4 rounds helpless or three rounds of caster interrupting damage anyway, and your party can either focus fire from range or just tank the minor damage in the next few rounds to charge in after they've dropped and finish up. Kind of a toss up between this and Symbol of Stun for AOE disables.
Firestorm: Ignores MR and deals 22-36 fire damage per round for four rounds that you can quite probably make your own fighters immune to.
Quest spells:
Both get: Summon Deva (at least according to the wiki, always sounded silly to me since Deva should be cleric only just as the princes are druid only, since otherwise they get no unique HLAs, but whatever): Gated spellcasting beefcake with spells, immunities, and a stunning mace. Not quite so beefy as elementals in melee, but much better spellcasting.
Energy Blades: Throw things instead of casting spells, or, better, to take advantage of those stuns you've been busting out left and right while your aura cools down.
Aura of Flaming Death: Oh look, it's Fire Shield, but epic. Not even sure it bypasses MR, but generally for Cleric/Mage this just adds to their layers of murder while they stand in the middle of enemies wrecking the action economy. Includes normal weapon immunity, AC, and Fire Resistance because who cares.
Storm of Vengeance: If your priest has a kit, it's a -2 save, party friendly, 3D6 damage. No disable, no ignores MR, stick with Earthquake and Firestorm for my money.
Globe of Blades: Basically Blade Barrier, except an HLA. Lame.
Implosion: 10D10 damage +10D10 damage if they fail a save, and 1 round hold. Also ignores MR, making it pretty much the best single target spell damage there is.
Druids get:
Greater Elemental Summoning: Finally, elemental summons for the druid that can't be death spelled. Very nasty to boot, since they hit hard with dispelling punches and get some perks depending on which prince you get.
Elemental Transformations: Not sure why you would want to be in melee doing lowly peon activities rather than dominating the battlefield with spells?
Best? Turn off the "fix", and play Cleric/Ranger as god and nature intended.
BG1 cap: Level 8, 21 wisdom, 6/6/5/5 spells. Sanctuary, Doom, Command, Hold Person, Chant, Animate Dead, Holy Smite, Farsight, Poison, Mental Domination, 2 Lightning Bolts/day. One "buff" that is both a minimum spell damage buff and an enemy save penalty rolled into one, three disables, one charm, three damage spells including a full AOE and a line attack.
SOD cap: Level 10, 21 wisdom, 7/7/5/6/3 spells. Add Flame Strike for bosses, Greater Command for crowds - AOE save or sleep, 3 10d6 Lightning Bolts/day, Smites are 10d4.
SoA cap: Level 21. Assuming early Watchers run, 24 Wisdom in Hell. Caster level is now maxed,
12/12/11/12/12/8/2 spells.
Aerial Servant (very comparable to fire elementals even if its Air Elemental immunities aren't covered by the game, strikes as +4 for 4D8+11), Bolt of Glory (no save, no MR, just damage against anything), Harm (anything that eats a disable is now on 1 HP, no roll to hit, no save), False Dawn (Liches are now confused for 2 rounds, no save), Earthquake, Firestorm, Gate (5 APR, strikes as +4, immune to +2 or less, 50% MR, immune to Death Spell), Holy Word (Party Friendly AOE 50% spell failure that stacks with itself. Two = 100% spell failure for 1 turn, no save), Symbol of Stun (-4 Save or suck which can be layered before triggering), and 5 x 10D6 Lightning Bolt innates.
ToB cap: 25 wisdom with the stone, level 40, 9 x 10D6 Lightning Bolt innates, two holy symbols (because other clerics exist to fuel my power), 12/12/11/12/13/13/10 spells with all the same HLAs except Greater Elemental Summon and Transformation.
Caster level outpaces Druid at level 14, Druid doesn't catch up to 20 until 3.75e6, so for most of SoA and some of ToB the Cleric's rolling more dice and longer durations, has earlier access to Gated summons, an earlier beefcake summon, earlier AOEs, more options indoors, MR bypassing attack spells, and spells for hosing down liches, not to mention as many or more spell slots to do it with compared to the Druid.
Just because Clerics can buff and heal doesn't mean that they are buff/heal oriented, merely that they can do those things, and just because they do not get the four spells of druids that are actually great does not mean that they are anything less than perfectly competent disablers and summoners with a decent core of damage spells to back it up, and for the things most frequently immune to those disables - undead - they get turn undead to deal with anyway.
Level 3:
Call Lightning: Maximum 80D8 over 4 rounds to 1-4 targets. 90-360 average damage at caster cap.
Summon Insects: 21 damage over 7 rounds.
Holy Smite: Maximum 20D4 per target over 1 round. 50 average damage per target in radius at caster cap.
Druid SoA cap: 16D8 72-288 damage.
Cleric SoA cap: 20D4 50 per enemy with no cap, 55 with Chant.
Assuming 4 enemies, that's 288 over four rounds versus 200 over one round. If there's only one enemy, Call Lightning only strikes once unless they fixed that.
Even assuming ToB cap max dice, 360 over four rounds vs 200 in one round is at best "more efficient", and far more limited in when it can be used.
Summons:
Clerics get: Animate Dead. By SoA cap they're: Stun, Sleep, Poison, Domination, Charm, Panic, Morale Break, Hold, Level Drain, Confusion, Fatigue bonus, Petrification, Berserk, Paralyze, Slay, Nature's Beauty, Dragon Rain, Chaos, Critical Hit and Normal Weapon immune critters with 80 HP, 100% Cold, 90% MR, 40% Slashing, 50% Piercing, 60% Missile resistance, a +1 sword and 2 APR. They've been that way most of the game.
Level 4:
Poison: Clerics if anything do it better, because Clerics get a better save penalty via Chant, better damage from the same, and better damage from being level 20 at the SoA cap (8d8 + 6/round for 10 rounds vs 4d8 + 4/round for 10 rounds).
Summons:
Druids now get: Nature's Call. Level 4 spell slot translates to:
2x Barkskin
1x Miscast Magic
1x Call Lightning
1x Cause Serious Wounds
1x Mental Domination
1x Mass Cure
1x Hold Monster
1x Confusion
All cast at CL 5, so that Call Lightning is 7D8x2, or ~63 damage over two rounds in optimal conditions. The nymph doesn't improve, but hey, free disables, debuffs and other stuff we don't count.
Level 5:
Insect Plague: Shutting down casters and disabling people is apparently irrelevant to being an offensive caster, so this is 18 damage per target, up to 6 targets (108) no save, over six rounds.
Flame Strike: 20d8 damage is 90 damage to a single target in a single round.
In terms of damage, Insect Plague isn't actually that great, and is readily outclassed by Holy Smite (150 average damage against six targets assuming they all made their save).
Level 6:
Fire Seeds are an odd one, since they're so cheeseable, but if we're just pitting Druid against Cleric and avoiding cheese, that's 8D8 tiny AOE fireballs over four rounds with an attack roll. Being very generous this could be 144 average damage over four rounds if you're firing into very densely packed groups.
Meanwhile Clerics get Bolt of Glory. 8D6 no save no MR against very uncommon undead, 10d6 against fairly common fiends, 6d6 against pretty much everyone humanoids, no MR regardless. 21 no save damage against a Golem is novel, I guess.
Let's ignore False Dawn, though it shuts down liches a level earlier than the Druid can and hurts a common enemy type to boot.
Summons go head to head this level:
Aerial Servant is always:
23 STR
THAC0 5 (strikes as 0 thanks to strength)
1 attack/round
4d8 crushing damage (strikes as +4) +11 Strength.
Base AC 3
Immune to normal weapons
Invisible when first summoned (until it attacks).
Versus superior Druid "Summon Elemental":
60%:
12 HD 96 HP
18 STR
THAC0 9 (strikes as 8 or so)
1 attack/round
3d8 crushing damage (strikes as +4) +1d6 fire damage +2 Strength
35%:
16 HD 128 HP
20 STR
THAC0 5 (strikes as 2)
1 attack/round
3d8 crushing damage (strikes as +4) +1d6 fire damage +8 Strength
5%:
24 HD 192 HP
23 STR
THAC0 0 (strikes as -5)
1 attack/round
3d8 crushing damage (strikes as +4) +1d6 fire damage +11 Strength
Base AC 2
100% Fire resist
100% Magic Fire resist
Immune to normal and +1weapons.
So... The elemental is slightly tankier in terms of AC and +1 weapon immunities, but doesn't hit as hard, and unless you get that 1 in 20 result, has a higher THAC0 too, while having a 60% chance of being significantly worse.
Level 7:
Earthquake (11d6 over 3 rounds AOE with a -6/-2/0 save penalty for half and a 4 round helpless state if they whiff the first save).
Firestorm (8d8+80 no save no MR per target for the cleric by SoA cap, 8d8+14 for the Druid until ToB).
Creeping Doom (36 damage over 3 rounds per target, 3 rounds of spell failure). Still worse than Holy Smite, definitely not outdamaging Firestorm, Earthquake, or any of those quest spells, and for two level 7 spells you can shut down casting for ten rounds with Holy Word, rather than 6 if we suddenly care about debuffs again.
Nature's Beauty: No save Blind is a very powerful effect with the game's terrible AI, but they are still not helpless even so. A stunned or unconscious enemy cannot act, defend themselves, attack, cast spells,
And summons?
Gate.
Pit Fiend
18/00 STR
THAC0 7 (effective 4)
5 APR
3d4 piercing damage (strikes as +4) +6
Base AC -5 (-8)
100% Fire resist
50% Magic resist
Immune to Poison, Charm, Fear, Domination, Confusion, Polymorphing, Feeblemind, Hold/Paralysis, Death Spell, and +2 weapons and lower.
Regenerates 1 HP/3 seconds
Detects invisible creatures
Cast at will:
Demon Fear: Save vs. spell or be panicked for 2 rounds. 30 ft. radius, party-friendly.
Fireball (20d6, save vs. spell for half)
Remove Magic
Symbol, Fear
5 APR at THAC0 4 for 3D4+6 damage each versus Earth Elemental which is still vulnerable to Death Spell, 1 APR, and no MR? The worst part of Gate is not having control over the pit fiend, but it's still a wrecking ball.
The only summon where Druids "get ahead" is in ToB - Greater Elemental Summon. Until that point they are comparable with Aerial Servant/Elemental Summoning, and arguably vastly inferior regarding Animated Dead/Nature's Call and Gate/Earth Elemental, and even then they have none of the immunities or spellcasting of Devas and still aren't as nasty as Gating a pit fiend on your enemy's head.
Likewise, the primary perks of Druids in offensive casting are their ability to shut down enemy spellcasting for measly level 5 Spell Slots, and abuse the AI with level 7 spell slots. They get nothing to handle MR until Implosion, their AOE save or sucks are extremely limited, and their spells below level 5 are lacklustre at best.
And again, just because they are the best healers does not mean that it is optimal for them to be healing oriented. A cleric can mitigate far more damage with fewer spell slots by killing or disabling enemies, while potions are ample healing for general use at all stages of the game.
Chant, however, does work just like luck, and it will influence incoming spell damage rolls as well as outgoing weapon damage. A 10d6 Fireball will do 35 damage on average with a save for half, but a -1 penalty from Chant would increase the average to 43.33. Likewise, your party members will only take 26.67 damage from that Fireball.
Druids are overwhelmingly dominant in BG2 simply because of Insect Plague, but Holy Word is worth mentioning, as it applies deafness and therefore 50% spell failure with no saving throw (plus some other, stronger effects against lower-level critters).
You mean what offense ACTUALLY is? I get that you are prejudiced against druids for whatever reason, but stretching the definitions of things doesn't fool anyone
Oh and that supposedly superior aerial servant? Yeah, Druids get that too. Gate is uncontrollable and you lose experience, and the Elemental Princes are better than the Deva unless you are fighting undead, but by that point in the game, undead aren't really a threat.
Lets cast a single Creeping Doom or a single Nature's Beauty and see how much a single spell affects the whole battle. I bet you they will outdo any single Cleric spell.
@Wesboi I'm curious why you put evil clerics above good clerics. Its my understanding that holy smite is more effective than the evil counterpart, since the vast majority of enemies are evil aligned.
Command the enemy, they drop helpless. Focus fire with all allies, every attack hits automatically, bypassing AC, they take, assuming you have a party of level 1 halflings with 9 Strength and clubs, 6D6 automatic damage in a single round where they can do nothing.
Cleric casts Hold? Same thing applies, except even longer. Held enemies are helpless, helpless enemies don't attack, don't dodge, they just wait for their HP totals to be wiped out, or for the hold to wear off, which generally happens after the battle is won or lost either way. If you hold half the enemies in a group, you've prevented any damage those enemies would have dealt, stopped any spells they would have cast. They're not just "hindered", they're dead, killing them is a formality, after you mop up the remaining survivors - who have lost that many peoples' worth of actions to try and hurt your party in return.
Compare that to a spell that does 30 average damage to a group of fighters with 60 HP, they've lost health, but unless that health loss kills them they are perfectly fighting fit and dealing their own damage back to you, which costs resources.
The exact same thing applies with Insect Plague - it's definitely not the damage that matters, since the damage is mediocre, it's the guaranteed casting failure, and it's generally not the +3 save or die for Nature's Beauty, it's the no save Blind and the idiot AI that makes Blind characters into gibbering idiots waiting to be killed.
And "prejudiced"? Note that you're the one talking about how Clerics have to be heal/buff focused, while I'm pointing out that their spell selection is pretty solid for offensive casting even if they don't have the four spells that are widely understood to be basically "the only reason to be a druid". Perhaps you should check your own biases? 1: Okay, cool. But if both cleric and druid get the better of the two options, generally that doesn't make the druid "better" at summoning.
2: Don't really care about Exp, there's plenty available and this assumes SoA cap (and you can always killsteal the pit fiend if it matters). The option is still there, and it's still a very powerful option well before HLAs and still very comparable with HLAs.
3: Sure, the Elemental Princes are decent gated summons, already said it was a perk, just a late game one. Claiming that Druids are a superior summoner based on the strength of their one unique HLA when Clerics summon earlier, and better, for most of the trilogy seems a bit of a stretch though.
Yeah, the avenger's got a major advantage over regular druid in terms of Web, one of the best disables, and Chaos, another great one, and Chain Lightning is a major perk for level 6 spells which are generally pretty lacklustre for druids otherwise (though I will point out that as far as party friendly AOEs go, it's pretty weak at 7d6 at SoA cap), overall definitely a great kit. But generally I went with Talosian since it gets those suckers for free without spending spell slots, and gets Good and Evil spells for optimum coverage.
Offensive damage/spell damage: spells that deal damage
Disablers: spells that impose negative status effects or penalties
Spell protections: Spell Turning/Deflection/Shield/Trap/Immunity and (Minor) Globe of Invulnerability
Magic attacks: spells that remove spell protections (Spell Thrust, Spellstrike, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Khelben's Warding Whip, Breach, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, Pierce Shield)
Buffs: spells that grant positive bonuses or immunities
Triggers and contingencies: (Minor) Sequencer, Spell Trigger, (Chain) Contingency
Toolkit spells: assorted spells with no clear category like Teleport Field, Find Traps, and Knock