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[Spoiler] About Jaheira

245

Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,093
    @Mirandel Imoen expilcitly asks if we should try to raise him. Jaheira's response is that someone dead for too long/too defiled CANNOT be brought back.

    @Pantalion

    1. Of course she is insecure. Her husband was murdered past the point of raising. Losing someone close to you is supremely traumatic, I know, I've lived it.
    2. That is every romance in the game.
    3. Um, no she doesn't. She explicitly sides with you over the order she belongs to.
    4. Bull. There is zero evidence for this and is all headcanon.
    5. How so?
    6. So? Elves grow at about the same rate as every other race, they just last longer.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    ThacoBell said:

    @Mirandel Imoen expilcitly asks if we should try to raise him. Jaheira's response is that someone dead for too long/too defiled CANNOT be brought back.

    @Pantalion

    1. Of course she is insecure. Her husband was murdered past the point of raising. Losing someone close to you is supremely traumatic, I know, I've lived it.
    2. That is every romance in the game.
    3. Um, no she doesn't. She explicitly sides with you over the order she belongs to.
    4. Bull. There is zero evidence for this and is all headcanon.
    5. How so?
    6. So? Elves grow at about the same rate as every other race, they just last longer.

    1: Considering her previous mate selection was a spineless yes man who worshipped the ground she walked on, I'm inclined to say that any insecurity she has predates losing Khalid.

    2: Do tell. Which other romance companion features the NPC voluntarily abandoning the party, and when?

    3: As mentioned previously, she first abandons the party while they are in a dangerous area, likely questing on a mission critical venture, without warning. Because of the nature of her romance, she will do this directly after CHARNAME just took an arrow in the knee saving her from bandits. Ice cold. She then lures the player into an ambush at the harper hold, siding with the player only if they have a sufficiently high reputation, otherwise abandoning them to their fate.

    4: Exhibit A: Khalid crafted her a fantastic anniversary gift. She gave him: Nothing.
    Exhibit B: Rather than bother to try and raise her dead husband, entertain the notion of seeking out a higher level priest to assist, save a lock of hair to potentially resurrect him at a later date, or even recover his body for proper burial, Jaheira instead goes "Meh, screw it." and leaves.
    Exhibit C: A few months after not even bothering to bury her husband, she trades up for a new guy.

    5: A druid must remain true neutral and preserve the balance. Jaheira is consistently Neutral Good in behaviour and outlook, in direct contravention of her role.

    6: Elves do not complete their adolescence until around their first century, and are children prior to their fiftieth (and that's just Drow, the fastest developing elf in 2e, CHARNAME is likely a moon or sun elf, with 65-75 years of age marking the end of their childhood). Remember: Just because she looks like she's eighteen does not mean you should hit on the twelve year old.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,093
    1. Khalid is the emotionally more mature one. Her confidence was largely due to his support. With him gone, well you see the results.
    2. You complained because kicking her from the party kills the romance, which every romance in the game does.
    3. The bandit encounter is random, and I've NEVER seen it happen before the harper event. She leaves to see the harpers immediately after finishing Xzar's quest, in the city, right in front of an inn that you rest at, safely. And no SHE DOES NOT LURE YOU INTO AN AMBUSH. Her dialogue makes it obvious that she expected the "Harpers" to see you as she does, someone worth traveling with and protecting. She also defends you against them without hesitation.
    4. I have already refuted the resurrection argument. You are simply repeating headcanon at this point.
    5. Only in 2e. In 3e you druids can be any neutral alignment. Baldur's Gate 2 is a mashup of 2 and 3e. Nothing in her actions betrays her class.
    6. So do refuse to do ANY roamance on the grounds that your charname is too young for it? I mean, they can travel unescorted across the realms, murder at will, own a landship, and recieve a noble title with all responsibilities that entails, but they can't fall in love. Right.

    Calmar
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    ThacoBell said:

    1. Khalid is the emotionally more mature one. Her confidence was largely due to his support. With him gone, well you see the results.
    2. You complained because kicking her from the party kills the romance, which every romance in the game does.
    3. The bandit encounter is random, and I've NEVER seen it happen before the harper event. She leaves to see the harpers immediately after finishing Xzar's quest, in the city, right in front of an inn that you rest at, safely. And no SHE DOES NOT LURE YOU INTO AN AMBUSH. Her dialogue makes it obvious that she expected the "Harpers" to see you as she does, someone worth traveling with and protecting. She also defends you against them without hesitation.
    4. I have already refuted the resurrection argument. You are simply repeating headcanon at this point.
    5. Only in 2e. In 3e you druids can be any neutral alignment. Baldur's Gate 2 is a mashup of 2 and 3e. Nothing in her actions betrays her class.
    6. So do refuse to do ANY roamance on the grounds that your charname is too young for it? I mean, they can travel unescorted across the realms, murder at will, own a landship, and recieve a noble title with all responsibilities that entails, but they can't fall in love. Right.

    1: Her confidence was largely because she had a yes man supporting her in everything. Okay.

    2: No, I complained that she is a hypocrite. Again, which romance asides from hers features the character actively leaving the party multiple times?

    3: That she leaves after the bandit event is actually mentioned explicitly in Sorcerer's Place, so it's a documented occurrence for more than just me. And yes, she does, unarguably, lure you into an ambush. While she may not realise that it is an ambush, she does know that the harpers in question are going to "investigate" you, does refuse to give you salient information pertaining to the encounter or allow you to politely decline, and does have a very real opportunity to leave you to die if you're not sufficiently well liked by the population in general.

    4: On the contrary these are all observable events. You witness A in SoD, you witness B in Chateau Irenicus, you witness C a few months thereafter. You can claim that resurrection would be impossible someone who was, according to Imoen, already dead before being defiled by "cutting", but this would not be in keeping with D&D mechanics, and Irenicus is not a high level cleric with access to the very specific subset of spells that preclude resurrection (as a Sorcerer we know all of his spells). To confirm: Resurrection does not require an intact corpse, and has a lengthy time limit. It is no more impossible in lore to resurrect Khalid than it is to regenerate Aerie's wings, and Aerie could handle both spells herself.

    5: Druids are specifically and explicitly restricted to True Neutral by the game. It isn't cherry picking 3e rules for druids, nor should you. By 2e rules, Jaheira should be a fallen Druid because she is fundamentally unbalanced. That she talks about preserving that balance while failing to do so herself? See #2.

    6: First of all, very creepy. Yes, twelve year olds can fall in love, no, their guardian of all people should not reciprocate. And yes, if they're not a human, half-elf, or halfling then the various CHARNAMEs have a lot in common with child soldiers being forced into actions that probably would be devastating to their mental health if they weren't a scion of murder itself.

    But let's review:
    Aerie is also underage. She says she's "probably" older than Jaheira, rather than "definitely", indicating that she's likely in her fifties or sixties at most. Two underage elves getting it on and having a kid is totally going on Jerinicus Springheeler.
    Viconia is actually the oldest character in the cast - the blonde highlights in her hair are a sign of advanced age among Drow. She has absolutely zero interest in elven CHARNAME jailbait.
    Rasaad and Anomen are ignorant human mayflies. They probably can't even comprehend the idea that the twenty year old has diminished capacity for consent based on their age.
    Dorn is a blackguard with zero moral compass. Nobody is surprised if he knows and just doesn't care.
    Neera is a highly immature Wild Mage with zero interest in societal norms of behaviour. Again, she doesn't care, and again, nobody is surprised.

    None of them were asked to be guardians of the underage manchild of a demigod wandering the Sword Coast causing trouble.

    ArtonaMirandelProont
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,093
    " And yes, she does, unarguably, lure you into an ambush. While she may not realise that it is an ambush"
    So how can Jaheira be blamed for leading charname into an ambush if she doesn't know there is an ambush?

    6. So again I ask you. Do you refuse to let your elven charnames engane in any romance? Or is this only a sticking point because you don't like Jaheira?

    All of my above points stand.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    edited December 2017
    ThacoBell said:

    All of my above points stand.

    Lolwut?


    1: She has a thing for absolute obedience and compliance in her menfolk. The elven half is probably "Drow".

    Your "point": It's probably because she lost her husband who also was coincidentally also completely obedient and compliant.

    Yeah, no. My assertion is that this is a core facet of her personality. She cannot bear for a potential romantic partner to challenge her in any way. That directly conflicts with her qualities of being "strong, independent and following her beliefs" as DjKaruru mentioned (since, y'know, actually responding to a post before you started making bad arguments at me?).

    Personally I happen to agree that her crippling insecurity is good characterisation (though not that Jaheira and CHARNAME don't stay together, since the epilogues exist to spoil potentially interesting exercises like that), but if you're going to deny her character flaws exist you're going to have to use some actual counter evidence showing it.


    2: She is a hypocrite because she is the only romance NPC who repeatedly leaves the party while complaining if you remove her from the party.

    Your "Every romance complains if they are removed" is not a counterpoint, it's a tangent. If you want to try and argue this is not hypocrisy, or that every single romance abandons the party 2-3 times, go right ahead.


    4: These are all observable behaviours in-game that indicate a somewhat lopsided relationship between Khalid (who is crazy about her) and Jaheira (who quite literally leaves him to rot).

    Your point "But she said he couldn't be raised! HEADCANON!"

    Even if this was a successful counterpoint rather than something against the actual mechanics and lore of the world and setting they live in (and, to argue your point for you, her objection being more likely to be a philosophical one as a druid, and an emotional one not wanting her husband to come back after suffering so much before he died, which is actually good characterisation), this does not in fact counter either of the two other indicators that she got over his death faster than most people get over a dead cat, or that she doesn't even get him a card for their wedding anniversary, neither of which are headcanon, though one of which is questionable canon, since it comes from the same people who gave the world Hexxat.

    Any counter examples in the game are generally directly from Jaheira claiming to have found Khalid important, without any particular actions on her part to demonstrate that while he was alive (or dead). If I'm incorrect in that assertion, by all means point out where.


    5: BG uses 2e rules, and requires Druids embrace balance. Jaheira actively and consistently promotes goodness over evil in direct violation of her druidic oaths.

    Your point: "But 3e doesn't, and Baldur's Gate uses some 3e bits!" isn't a counterpoint, because Druidic alignment is not one of those bits. Based on her behaviour in BG2, Jaheira's alignment should have been NG, and she should not have been a druid, because Druids should not promote good over evil as she does.

    You might chalk this up to simply bad writing, or consider being a terrible druid not to be a character flaw (personally I'd prefer she was a good druid who was actually neutral and appreciated balance, rather than basically another Good Alignment romance when Aerie was already a thing), but that she breaks the tenets of druidism is fairly apparent.



    3: Cherrypicking away from her actively leaving you in the woods, right after you got shanked saving her? Fine. "So how can Jaheira be blamed for leading charname into an ambush if she doesn't know there is an ambush?"

    How can Jaheira be blamed for leading CHARNAME into a situation while refusing to give them the full story, and ultimately refusing to travel with CHARNAME until they cave in and go into a dangerous situation unaware?

    Very easily, because it's entirely her fault. People aren't absolved from their bad choices by their stupidity or feelings. She coerces you into entering the Harper hold while knowing full well that you're going to get interrogated (and to the extent of refusing to help you against her husband's killer because she feels so strongly about making you jump through hoops to prove yourself) at minimum.

    She sides with you conditionally only after this betrayal of trust.


    6. So again I ask you. Do you refuse to let your elven charnames engane in any romance? Or is this only a sticking point because you don't like Jaheira?

    The issue that comes up in almost every conversation we have is that you seem to think I have emotional reasons for things. I don't. Emotions are irrelevant, only data matters.

    Anyway, as I have pointed out above, the various romances are:

    An elf who is underage herself. (Aerie - also applies to the sole underage Gnome CHARNAME option).
    Humans who don't know any better. (Anomen/Rasaad)
    Deeply flawed individuals. (Dorn/Neera/Anomen gets included twice)
    Elf who is not underage and correctly does not get involved. (Viconia)
    Half-elf surrogate parent figure who probably should know better. (Jaheira)

    It's a little weird that any of CHARNAME's three guardians is in any romance at all (though I'm honestly thankful it's the living one rather than Gorion or Khalid, though I've no doubt someone will mod one up eventually), but an elven charname being a child adds an extra weird dynamic to the romance.

    Now you could arguably push for CHARNAME being an adolescent and Gorion being just that old if you consider Imoen's statements to be based on ignorance or confusion as to elven maturation rates and their relative ages, which makes things a bit less creepy, but still rather inappropriate relationship dynamic. Canon doesn't stretch far enough to make CHARNAME a century old since they interact with two non-archmages who remember their early childhood.

    As for advancing romances, from memory my last three include "being gay evil furry's chew toy", "being Keldorn's weird blood licking rebound", and "fetishising whiny tiefling's pus-oozing injuries", with the full flirt menu for each. "Transracial underage hot for teacher fetish" would need a lot more action tags before it even blipped on my weirdness radar at this point.


    But since we're on the topic of feelings, are you defending Jaheira as an emotional response to the deeply flawed character of your favourite NPC waifu being pointed out, or do you actually have a genuine, reason based, counterargument to the facts I've given that you're keeping a secret for some reason?

    ArtonaProont
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 478
    It's not a case of defending Jaheira, flawed or not, she does tend to be consistently voted as a fan favourite Romance though so that would imply that the writers did at least a passable job. Personally i find her annoying, but that is because she comes across as Bossy in BG1 and kinda devolves into a neurotic mess in BG2.

    The problem is you have to factor in the extreme situation AND fantasy setting detailed throughout the games. It's just not accurate to apply real world rationale to explain her personality. The age issue is also a non-argument, you're trying to rationalize how a fictional race in a fantasy world might act, based on the fact that them being 50+ yrs old somehow equates to them being a real world modern 15-16 yr old, lol. It's completely irrelevant and doesn't hold up to logic either.

    Let me repeat, you cannot apply the emotional maturity of a real world teenager and transpose it to a fantasy world Elf/half-elf.

    Next, regarding the romance part where she leaves after the Bandits turn up and you free her after offering yourself, that's just a limit of the game engine and in no way equates to her abandoning you mid-quest. She is a member of the Harpers, which YOU KNOW, it's not like Meronia says "Hey J, we need you to lure the God-child to the Hold so we can cast imprisonment", lol. If you feel that she betrays the Spawn by deliberately luring into a trap that's on YOU, it's an assumption you are projecting and most definitely NOT a commonly held believe. I myself have never felt she was doing any betrayal, at worst she was called away to discuss the implications of trampling around Amn causing all sorts of trouble and possibly being too public as a Harper, especially in an area she is not usually associated with.

    Regarding the age of the Bhaalspawn then actually it's perfectly reasonable to assume an Elf spawn could be 100+ yrs old, at no point in the story does it state that Bhaal had an Orgy and fathered all his offspring on a single night, lol. He was a God and pre-planned, this could EASILY involve a 100+ yr time period.

    Now i agree that the Romances are laughable in parts and all of the potential partners are flawed, but i hate to break it to you but so is every single human that has ever existed. Imperfection is part of everyone, always will be. Just because the romance partners are flawed, in some cases generic and i'll freely admit at points poorly thought through, doesn't really take too much away. If it angers you then write a damn mod and do better, it's a 20 yr old game written by a bunch of fantasy loving nerds, OF COURSE the romances are going to be somewhat generic and at times cringeworthy lol.

    No game is perfect and no developer will ever please all the players.

    ThacoBellCalmarProont
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    The age issue is also a non-argument, you're trying to rationalize how a fictional race in a fantasy world might act, based on the fact that them being 50+ yrs old somehow equates to them being a real world modern 15-16 yr old, lol. It's completely irrelevant and doesn't hold up to logic either.


    Logically speaking, an "adolescent" of any species is one approaching, but not quite reaching full physical and developmental maturity. I agree that it is illogical to expect elves, a significantly difference species with a different lifecycle to share the same emotional and mental maturity as humans at any particular age, considering that brain development for humans only concludes at age twenty-five, an age at which, according to the Complete Book of Elves, elves are running around at around four foot tall being childish.

    Next, regarding the romance part where she leaves after the Bandits turn up and you free her after offering yourself, that's just a limit of the game engine and in no way equates to her abandoning you mid-quest.

    This is in fact literally the case. There is no option by which you can say "Hold up, Jaheira, you are our only healer, we are in the middle of troll swamp trying to stop an evil druid which only you can defeat, and I just lost fifty percent of my health saving you.", because there is no case in which she cares. Her loyalty is to the Harpers. she abandons the party without a second thought in any and every situation, even after the player just having taken an injury saving her.

    As to game limitations, Jaheira being summoned to the Harper hold requires two events to occur, this is one of two possible times that she abandons the party, the other directly after completing the prerequisite quest. Considering the second is an easy exp, low risk quest accessible in the early game, and the second requires multiple lovetalks to have already progressed, and resting in a wilderness area, it's generally more likely for her to abandon you while questing than it is while safely in town.

    This may be revenge for all the times you kicked her out of the party in the middle of an Ankheg nest in BG1, but it's still a jerk move.

    If you feel that she betrays the Spawn by deliberately luring into a trap that's on YOU, it's an assumption you are projecting and most definitely NOT a commonly held believe.

    Appeal to popularity, logical fallacy.

    And yes, I feel she betrays the Bhaalspawn's trust by A: "Coercing them to go to an unknown situation without adequately informing them what it entails." B: "Ultimately abandoning them in their quest if they refuse." C: "Being a poor judge of character." D: "Intentionally or not, by the above leading the Bhaalspawn into a trap through poor decisions." If Yoshimo thought Irenicus intended to give you a foot massage, his betraying you would still be a betrayal.

    Regarding the age of the Bhaalspawn then actually it's perfectly reasonable to assume an Elf spawn could be 100+ yrs old, at no point in the story does it state that Bhaal had an Orgy and fathered all his offspring on a single night, lol. He was a God and pre-planned, this could EASILY involve a 100+ yr time period.

    Note that I have already mentioned several reasons why, for CHARNAME in particular, this is unlikely to be the case.

    1: Imoen says you are only slightly older than she is.
    2: You encounter two Candlekeep monks, who are human and not archmages, who specifically, and at length, refer to the Bhaalspawn's childhood. Khelben and Gorion are exempt from human lifespans, randos in Candlekeep not so much.
    3: Sarevok Anchev, who is also human, refers to being present at the same "Bhaalspawn sacrificing event" at which CHARNAME was rescued by Gorion, and as being slightly older than CHARNAME, who was too young to remember the event.

    This is multiple, in-story, events that pinpoint CHARNAME's age. You may sort of fudge things around a little by saying that Elf!spawn is actually a child, and elf children develop extremely slowly, so Imoen and Sarevok may both have pegged CHARNAME as being younger than their biological age, but you cannot push it too far, and especially not up to full adulthood.


    Now i agree that the Romances are laughable in parts and all of the potential partners are flawed, but i hate to break it to you but so is every single human that has ever existed. Imperfection is part of everyone, always will be. Just because the romance partners are flawed, in some cases generic and i'll freely admit at points poorly thought through, doesn't really take too much away. If it angers you then write a damn mod and do better, it's a 20 yr old game written by a bunch of fantasy loving nerds, OF COURSE the romances are going to be somewhat generic and at times cringeworthy lol.

    Once again, I have no particular emotional attachment here, nor am I offended. This is a thread concerning the character failings of Jaheira. You can either argue those character failings do not exist as I and others have described them (and I have provided far more supporting evidence to back up my reasoning on all six points than either of you combined), or you can try to justify those failings in her character (I don't care).

    You cannot, however, claim that I am operating from an emotional basis which I lack, or that the character being a flawed or unpleasant person is something I find personally offensive, any more than I can claim that the only reason you're replying is that me being "mean" to your computer game waifu is because my statements made your rage tears stain your Jaheira body pillow. It's ad hominem and is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

  • InKalInKal Member Posts: 112
    Masterteo said:

    Just my opinion on her character.

    Am i the only one that is disappointed by her lack of morality ?

    1- I mean, how could she have romantic feelings for the protagonist. So soon after her husband's death, nonetheless.

    And the " dream " in one of her first dialogues, in which she sees him "smiling" to her and charname...as if in approvation of their possible relationship.

    Overall this always made me think that for Jaheira love is meaningless and husbands can be changed as easily as a pair of shoes.

    2- She likes to criticize Aerie for her lackings, but does she look into herself to see her problems ? Never.

    ----------------------

    These are the reasons why i never used her, until now. Out of curiosity i'm using her to see what happens. Obviously she won't be a romance interest for charname.

    What is your opinion ? Do you like Jaheira ?

    In my opinion her relationship with Khalid (poor Khalid, seriously poor fcking bastard) was more, what's the word? professional than romantic. She was completely devoted to her faith and heritage and her "husband" role was to be her supporter in her shenanigans (heh) as a harper and druid (imo), not that much more. Of course she loved Khalid in some way, no doubt but it was the Bhaalspawn who was her first true love, in my opinion.

    profanitywarning
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 478
    Next, regarding the romance part where she leaves after the Bandits turn up and you free her after offering yourself, that's just a limit of the game engine and in no way equates to her abandoning you mid-quest.

    This is in fact literally the case. There is no option by which you can say "Hold up, Jaheira, you are our only healer, we are in the middle of troll swamp trying to stop an evil druid which only you can defeat, and I just lost fifty percent of my health saving you.", because there is no case in which she cares. Her loyalty is to the Harpers. she abandons the party without a second thought in any and every situation, even after the player just having taken an injury saving her.

    My point is it's the game engine that decides when she leaves based on internal timers,
    the fact you MIGHT be in the middle of the Druid grove killing Trolls is not relevant to my argument, you could just as easily be chilling out doing nothing important, plus the event is triggered by you RESTING, which by default means you are not left w/o a healer mid-fight


    As to game limitations, Jaheira being summoned to the Harper hold requires two events to occur, this is one of two possible times that she abandons the party, the other directly after completing the prerequisite quest. Considering the second is an easy exp, low risk quest accessible in the early game, and the second requires multiple lovetalks to have already progressed, and resting in a wilderness area, it's generally more likely for her to abandon you while questing than it is while safely in town.

    This may be revenge for all the times you kicked her out of the party in the middle of an Ankheg nest in BG1, but it's still a jerk move.

    By default you are always questing, hence my comment about game limits, lol. Now if you wanted to say it was poor design by the developers you may have a point, but the bottom line is a HARPER that you KNEW was a Harper, gets called to the HARPER HQ regarding HARPER business. It's like me complaining my Boss calls me into work when someone is sick and i am on call, it comes with the territory. Harper gets called away on Harper business, shocking!

    If you feel that she betrays the Spawn by deliberately luring into a trap that's on YOU, it's an assumption you are projecting and most definitely NOT a commonly held believe.

    Appeal to popularity, logical fallacy.

    And yes, I feel she betrays the Bhaalspawn's trust by A: "Coercing them to go to an unknown situation without adequately informing them what it entails." B: "Ultimately abandoning them in their quest if they refuse." C: "Being a poor judge of character." D: "Intentionally or not, by the above leading the Bhaalspawn into a trap through poor decisions." If Yoshimo thought Irenicus intended to give you a foot massage, his betraying you would still be a betrayal.

    So i'm not allowed to pull the popular opinion card when your 1st 5 words state those classic words "i feel". Great, couldn't be happier for you regarding your feelings on the matter, i and many others do not feel the same way. Opinions are by default neither right nor wrong being based on personal emotional resonance and not logic.

    Regarding the age of the Bhaalspawn then actually it's perfectly reasonable to assume an Elf spawn could be 100+ yrs old, at no point in the story does it state that Bhaal had an Orgy and fathered all his offspring on a single night, lol. He was a God and pre-planned, this could EASILY involve a 100+ yr time period.

    Note that I have already mentioned several reasons why, for CHARNAME in particular, this is unlikely to be the case.

    1: Imoen says you are only slightly older than she is.
    2: You encounter two Candlekeep monks, who are human and not archmages, who specifically, and at length, refer to the Bhaalspawn's childhood. Khelben and Gorion are exempt from human lifespans, randos in Candlekeep not so much.
    3: Sarevok Anchev, who is also human, refers to being present at the same "Bhaalspawn sacrificing event" at which CHARNAME was rescued by Gorion, and as being slightly older than CHARNAME, who was too young to remember the event.

    This is multiple, in-story, events that pinpoint CHARNAME's age. You may sort of fudge things around a little by saying that Elf!spawn is actually a child, and elf children develop extremely slowly, so Imoen and Sarevok may both have pegged CHARNAME as being younger than their biological age, but you cannot push it too far, and especially not up to full adulthood.

    Again, limits in the game engine, there are numerous cases where the spawn being a specific race doesn't really make complete sense, pre-2000 when they wrote the game they obviously had limits on what they could add to the game, racially specific dialogue is an area where they clearly decided it wasn't viable to cover all the possible class/race options.

    1: Clearly if you pick an Elf, you are MUCH older than Imoen who is a Human, the fact the game engine has generic dialogue doesn't matter.

    2: Again, it's fixed dialgue.

    3: Indeed, but the sacrifice event could easily happen when all the spawns are matured, it doesn't mean you were all born at the same time. Don't even need the fixed dialogue argument for that.

    I will also point out that both Spawn and Imoen were FOUND by Gorion at the Bhaal temple and rescued,
    Sarevok was left behind, Spawns actual Birthplace/date is never mentioned AT ALL, precisely because the spawn can be any of the selected races/classes which would alter the details.



    Now i agree that the Romances are laughable in parts and all of the potential partners are flawed, but i hate to break it to you but so is every single human that has ever existed. Imperfection is part of everyone, always will be. Just because the romance partners are flawed, in some cases generic and i'll freely admit at points poorly thought through, doesn't really take too much away. If it angers you then write a damn mod and do better, it's a 20 yr old game written by a bunch of fantasy loving nerds, OF COURSE the romances are going to be somewhat generic and at times cringeworthy lol.

    Once again, I have no particular emotional attachment here, nor am I offended. This is a thread concerning the character failings of Jaheira. You can either argue those character failings do not exist as I and others have described them (and I have provided far more supporting evidence to back up my reasoning on all six points than either of you combined), or you can try to justify those failings in her character (I don't care).

    You cannot, however, claim that I am operating from an emotional basis which I lack, or that the character being a flawed or unpleasant person is something I find personally offensive, any more than I can claim that the only reason you're replying is that me being "mean" to your computer game waifu is because my statements made your rage tears stain your Jaheira body pillow. It's ad hominem and is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    I didn't state anything about your emotional attachment, i said if you feel strongly then write a Mod and do better.

    No you have not provided any evidence at all, what you have done is posted your opinions, of which you are perfectly entitled. The great thing about roleplaying is that we can have debates about opinions and no one has to be right or wrong, the Game Engine acts as our Dungeon Master but by default you cannot argue semantics with it.

    I see no point to use words like "Waifu" and "rage tears", especially when you are attempting to claim the high position in response to me stating that you can always create a Mod if it annoys you. Note the word IF that i used, i did not state you WERE angry, i stated IF you were then you can write a mod to "fix" your perceived flaws with her character.

    I would also add that i stated quite clearly that Jaheira annoys me, this means i have no attachment to her and am merely posting some comments on the forum. Truth be told i am not a fan of any of the romances and usually play solo, just taking NPC's to complete their quests. So you are barking up the wrong tree if you are trying to imply i give a damn outside of having a theoretical argument over game engine limits and game lore that is extremely subjective in most cases.


  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    edited December 2017
    Pantalion said:

    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Resurrection_(spell)
    This spell does all this but potentially might leave her so exhausted she can't cast spells or fight again for a day or two.

    Psh. Like druids even get spells that cool. But yeah, she could have kept a lock of hair and straight up had him resurrected him at her convenience any time within a few decades. Railroading at its silliest.

    The worst thing is Aerie never got her wings healed.

    And...


    In certain endings, she has children with the protagonist, which makes them half-Avariel, which means they might not have strong enough wings to fly very well. This was never really addressed.

    Will the Avariel ever accept the half-breeds who are lucky to fly at all.

    Birds have hollow bones and are very light-weight which is how they fly. Giant birds like condors are only 20 pounds whereas humans are usually around 150 pounds.

    A human with normal bones about 150 pounds is going to need really powerful wings and a ton of calories to fly. The wings will have to flap very fast and the human wouldn't be able to glide easily like birds.

    I'd assume Avariel might have hollow bones like birds and if that's the case they'd have lower constitution.

    PantalionProont
  • Pantalion said:


    And ignoring at least one quest which explicitly involves carrying a corpse in your backpack out of a sewer, one assumes parties of adventurers carrying around mutilated corpses out of sewers is pretty much par for the course for any law enforcement officer. How else are they supposed to get their party members raised?

    When I emerge from the sewers, my 6 characters are fill to the brim with stuff to sell. I kill off all the enemies then return to collect the loot. Often my characters are walking really slowly hauling it all.

    Thankfully the game makes all of Imoen's loot get dropped so I can sell that after the cut scene.

    I'm not sure how from role-playing it would be to have characters hauling 6 armors each to resell. They don't have a pack mule. Of course it's still nothing like Star Wars Knight of The Old Republic 1 and 2 where you have unlimited inventory space and no weight limit.

    Though really if a character is hauling tons of stuff around, the fragile stuff should get damaged in combat. I once was at a job where I hauled furniture and was always worried my cell phone would break just from using my whole body to help carry things.



    ThacoBellProont
  • Borek said:


    Also remember that Skie Silvershield was killed in SoD and wasn't able to be resurrected, she was killed by the same person that killed Khalid. You can dress it up anyway you like, but at the time his death occurs you have no influence, no money, no equipment and no clue where you are, you're chasing a sadistic monster that has the power to permanently kill anyone he wants.

    Lol spoiler

    http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Skie_Silvershield

    It says her soul was trapped into a dagger and...
    > Her body is preserved and transported back to Baldur’s Gate in hope of reviving her once the dagger is retrieved, which seems less likely to happen for her body has already been soulless for too long and the magical process required to bind her soul back is far too difficult even for grand clerics. It’s unknown of Skie’s final fate as no related content has been added in BG2EE.

    So unsure if they found the dagger but the fate is unknown



  • Pantalion said:


    1: Considering her previous mate selection was a spineless yes man who worshipped the ground she walked on, I'm inclined to say that any insecurity she has predates losing Khalid.

    2: Do tell. Which other romance companion features the NPC voluntarily abandoning the party, and when?


    1: Khalid and Jahiera were married for many years and never had children. This was an age before modern birth control. Perhaps she thought Khalid might be the one who's infertile. Speaking of this Viconia (as well as Phaere in the underdark) have had tons of male lovers and no pregnancy so probably infertile too.

    2: Jan abandons the party to stay with Lisse, the woman who scorned him for some 50 Shades of Gray type psycho. Lisse immediately runs to Jan, then Jan helps save a child from another man, and then Lisse abandons him again to stay with the same psychopath. Jan should've found someone else. The next time I play it, I will see what happens if I ignore the quest and it fails. Jan probably will just not rejoin.



  • ThacoBell said:


    6. So do refuse to do ANY roamance on the grounds that your charname is too young for it? I mean, they can travel unescorted across the realms, murder at will, own a landship, and recieve a noble title with all responsibilities that entails, but they can't fall in love. Right.

    Young for an elf is the age a human is senile in a nursing him.

    Needless to say, for humans there have been plenty of cases where young teens have gone on adventuring like this throughout human history. It used to be really common in the past for young teen males to become military leaders and hold positions of power. Nowadays it's said they're not adults until they're 18. But people 13 and younger still in modern times do terrible adult crimes such as murder, rape, and torture.


  • Skatan said:

    I'm betting you 500 gold coins all of you are pondering this topic about 100 times more than the original writers did before they wrote that section of Jaheira's and Khalid's stories, hehe..


    That's actually the problem with a lot of fiction. The writers aren't as involved in the story as the fans.

    The process of writing though is more about: We have no idea if this will totally not sell at all.

  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 478

    Pantalion said:


    1: Considering her previous mate selection was a spineless yes man who worshipped the ground she walked on, I'm inclined to say that any insecurity she has predates losing Khalid.

    2: Do tell. Which other romance companion features the NPC voluntarily abandoning the party, and when?


    1: Khalid and Jahiera were married for many years and never had children. This was an age before modern birth control. Perhaps she thought Khalid might be the one who's infertile. Speaking of this Viconia (as well as Phaere in the underdark) have had tons of male lovers and no pregnancy so probably infertile too.

    2: Jan abandons the party to stay with Lisse, the woman who scorned him for some 50 Shades of Gray type psycho. Lisse immediately runs to Jan, then Jan helps save a child from another man, and then Lisse abandons him again to stay with the same psychopath. Jan should've found someone else. The next time I play it, I will see what happens if I ignore the quest and it fails. Jan probably will just not rejoin.



    Well to be fair ancient civilizations used various means for contraception and they didn't have access to magic. In fact not long back i saw a Documentary that stated the Romans gathered so much of a particularly effective plant from North Africa that it went extinct and some modern Pharma companies were trying to find it as it was mentioned in ancient texts as being pretty much 100% effective.

    Also yeah i always felt a follow up to jan's quest would be nice, the lil midget deserves his chance at payback on his love rival!

    Pantalion
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Borek

    My point is it's the game engine that decides when she leaves based on internal timers,
    the fact you MIGHT be in the middle of the Druid grove killing Trolls is not relevant to my argument, you could just as easily be chilling out doing nothing important, plus the event is triggered by you RESTING, which by default means you are not left w/o a healer mid-fight


    Sure, you could just as easily have been camping outside without a current adventure actively going on, so rather than bouncing mid adventure she could just be ditching you right after you took out some bandits and were badly wounded (lol, just kidding, stoneskins, but srsly) saving her.

    If the encounter had been scripted to occur next time you were in a town or something that would be fine (and is completely easy to do), that would be one thing, but it's scripted to occur straight after a bandit encounter in a wilderness (aka dangerous) location.

    By default you are always questing, hence my comment about game limits, lol. Now if you wanted to say it was poor design by the developers you may have a point, but the bottom line is a HARPER that you KNEW was a Harper, gets called to the HARPER HQ regarding HARPER business. It's like me complaining my Boss calls me into work when someone is sick and i am on call, it comes with the territory. Harper gets called away on Harper business, shocking!

    Yes, one of these things is not like the others. Anomen gets a call that his SISTER IS DEAD, Aerie gets a call that SHE MUST SEE HER UNCLE URGENTLY, and they start complaining if not allowed to go where they have desperate need to go. Jaheira gets a call from her boss and ditches you in the woods.

    So i'm not allowed to pull the popular opinion card when your 1st 5 words state those classic words "i feel". Great, couldn't be happier for you regarding your feelings on the matter, i and many others do not feel the same way. Opinions are by default neither right nor wrong being based on personal emotional resonance and not logic.

    Note that I stated "I feel" to echo your stating "if you feel that". I can confirm that it is indeed an opinion, but it is my own, and one well backed by evidence I have provided. In much the same way as I can say "I feel that Minsc is a mentally deranged halfwit" backed up by his behaving like a mentally deranged halfwit, and you counter by saying that nobody agrees with me, and that everyone thinks he's smart and cool and his hamster actually talks to him.

    While you may make an appeal to popularity as often as you like, please note that it has no weight to it whatsoever and that trying to use logical fallacies in a discussion makes you look like a bit of a boob.

    Again, limits in the game engine, there are numerous cases where the spawn being a specific race doesn't really make complete sense, pre-2000 when they wrote the game they obviously had limits on what they could add to the game, racially specific dialogue is an area where they clearly decided it wasn't viable to cover all the possible class/race options.

    1: Clearly if you pick an Elf, you are MUCH older than Imoen who is a Human, the fact the game engine has generic dialogue doesn't matter.

    2: Again, it's fixed dialgue.

    3: Indeed, but the sacrifice event could easily happen when all the spawns are matured, it doesn't mean you were all born at the same time. Don't even need the fixed dialogue argument for that.

    I will also point out that both Spawn and Imoen were FOUND by Gorion at the Bhaal temple and rescued,
    Sarevok was left behind, Spawns actual Birthplace/date is never mentioned AT ALL, precisely because the spawn can be any of the selected races/classes which would alter the details.


    Throne of Bhaal was written in 2001. They had two games and a vastly superior engine. They have elected at all points to maintain the Bhaalspawn as being younger than a century. While you can argue that it should not be the case, or would not be the case if they did another game, the game is perfectly clear and consistent regarding the age of CHARNAME.

    1.2.: No, you do not get to ignore any dialogue you do not like. You can try and justify it, as I've said, that she didn't realise that the childlike elf/dwarf/gnome was in fact far older than them, but you cannot ignore it, otherwise any discussion about the content of the game becomes meaningless.

    3: CHARNAME is specifically not mature, or even close. They have no memory of the event and were specifically a baby at the time being sacrificed by their mother. Again, this may be a baby by demihuman standards, giving some wriggle room, but unless you're suggesting that the human twenty something fighter Sarevok who was adopted and raised by the equally human Rieltar is, in fact, a supercentenarian, there is no basis in canon for any CHARNAME to be that old.

    Randomly occurred to me: Aerie can and does specifically point out that she is likely older than Jaheira. CHARNAME can never do this, because they are most likely not.

    Now i agree that the Romances are laughable in parts and all of the potential partners are flawed, but i hate to break it to you but so is every single human that has ever existed. Imperfection is part of everyone, always will be. Just because the romance partners are flawed, in some cases generic and i'll freely admit at points poorly thought through, doesn't really take too much away. If it angers you then write a damn mod and do better, it's a 20 yr old game written by a bunch of fantasy loving nerds, OF COURSE the romances are going to be somewhat generic and at times cringeworthy lol.

    Once again, I have no particular emotional attachment here, nor am I offended. This is a thread concerning the character failings of Jaheira. You can either argue those character failings do not exist as I and others have described them (and I have provided far more supporting evidence to back up my reasoning on all six points than either of you combined), or you can try to justify those failings in her character (I don't care).

    You cannot, however, claim that I am operating from an emotional basis which I lack, or that the character being a flawed or unpleasant person is something I find personally offensive, any more than I can claim that the only reason you're replying is that me being "mean" to your computer game waifu is because my statements made your rage tears stain your Jaheira body pillow. It's ad hominem and is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    I didn't state anything about your emotional attachment, i said if you feel strongly then write a Mod and do better.

    I would also add that i stated quite clearly that Jaheira annoys me, this means i have no attachment to her and am merely posting some comments on the forum. Truth be told i am not a fan of any of the romances and usually play solo, just taking NPC's to complete their quests. So you are barking up the wrong tree if you are trying to imply i give a damn outside of having a theoretical argument over game engine limits and game lore that is extremely subjective in most cases.


    Suggesting I have not included any evidence in my posts suggests that you either do not quite understand what the word means, or that you did not read those posts.

    My position is based upon Jaheira's observable behaviour, what is said in game, and what the rules and lore say - in other words, evidence.

    In case that is somehow unclear, "The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." in this case refers to the lore, the game system upon which the lore is bound, and the actual words and actions spoken in the game.

    You are of course welcome to use counter-evidence from those same sources or try and show those sources are in fact not evidence in the rather than trying to dismiss them from purely a "well obviously the game must be ignored because game mechanics were limited back then" perspective, which carries some weight (Aerie not getting her wings back the first time she casts regeneration is obviously a game oversight against the rules and lore and we can all agree that this "should" have happened), but does not cover a fraction of the things I've mentioned or change the lore itself (That Aerie does not get her wings back, but stops being such a wuss in ToB regardless).

    Regardless, whether I find her flawed personality offensive or not is ad hominem, and completely irrelevant to the topic. The idea one might need to "fix" someone's personality flaws seems a rather unhealthy, and my personal feelings towards Jaheira either way has no bearing on whether or not those flaws I ascribe to her exist.


    Disclaimer: Please note that I specifically pointed out that ad hominem comments were inappropriate, and used an example I found humorous to show it. I do not actually believe that you stained your Jaheira body pillow by crying on it, I don't want to know where those stains come from.



    MakeAthkatlaGrtAgain

    1: Yeah, Aerie's wings never healing is dumb. There's supposedly planned but never implemented content where she was at least supposed to make a choice about it either way, but the way she bleats about having no wings despite quite possibly being able to cast "Limited Wish" when she's doing it? Sigh.

    2: As for the half-elf, other half different-elf, according to lore, Realms elves apparently have a 50/50 chance of it favouring each subrace (it gets weird with Drow though, since apparently Drow half-breeds are more likely to favour their drow parent mentally, and more likely to breed true Drow in future generations). Either way, kid's got a deity and an archmage for parents, so I can't see anyone being too mean even if it's half-Gnome.

    3: Isn't it sort of sad that they recovered and preserved Skie, of all people, just on the offchance, but Khalid was left to rot? Poor Khalid.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Borek said:

    Also yeah i always felt a follow up to jan's quest would be nice, the lil midget deserves his chance at payback on his love rival!

    Possibly something involving monkeys.

    ArtonaThacoBellProont
  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    edited December 2017
    Borek said:


    Well to be fair ancient civilizations used various means for contraception and they didn't have access to magic. In fact not long back i saw a Documentary that stated the Romans gathered so much of a particularly effective plant from North Africa that it went extinct and some modern Pharma companies were trying to find it as it was mentioned in ancient texts as being pretty much 100% effective.

    Also yeah i always felt a follow up to jan's quest would be nice, the lil midget deserves his chance at payback on his love rival!


    I am not too knowledgeable about that. I do know all the modern products that we take for granted take a ton of manufacturing capacity and require components shipped and processed from all over the world.

    For contraceptives in ancient Rome my main knowledge is from the show Rome where Titus Pullo had a wife and a girl who wanted to take the wife's place fed a contraceptive to the wife but it went wrong and the wife died. I figured they didn't have the hang of contraceptives back then.

    I especially figured they didn't have the hang of contraceptives because the birth control pill radically changed society. Though I've heard the later part of the Roman Empire (not the earlier Republic) had similar social problems to today's society including a massive amount of people reliant on government handouts to survive. So maybe that's when ancient Rome found the plant. I've heard they made a ton of animal species in Europe in and the Middle East go extinct for use in coliseums (eg. lions, elephants), though only extinct in that area, not in Africa.

    ...


    Jan simply needs to find a younger, better gnome woman. Some endings show him eventually just going back to Lisse. Jan should find someone who appreciated his stories. There's lines saying Neera really liked them though there's no instances of half-gnomes so maybe the two couldn't bear children or the children were sterile like mules. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=Half-gnome

    Hmmm well it says Half-gnomes are rare:
    https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half_Gnome_(5e_Race)
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Half-Gnome





    semiticgod
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,093
    @Pantalion Yes, my points stand on their own. I understand that you have a weird patholgical NEED to be right. But you are flaunting your own interpretations of a character so outside her own canon as fact that its actually pretty funny. We might just have to accept that we will never agree on how we feel about a fictional character *gasp!*.

    And for the record, Jaheira isn't my waifu. Aerie is.

    BorekProont
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    So that would be a "no" on the "actual, reason based argument" then? Righto.

    Jan simply needs to find a younger, better gnome woman. Some endings show him eventually just going back to Lisse. Jan should find someone who appreciated his stories. There's lines saying Neera really liked them though there's no instances of half-gnomes so maybe the two couldn't bear children or the children were sterile like mules.

    Well, apparently gnomes and elves can make babies, so I don't see why a half-elf would be much different. Who are we to stand between them and their half-half-elf-gnome babies after all?

    I have to say though, I do enjoy Jan's subquest for being one of the most "real". No happy ending, no closure, just patch up the damage and watch helplessly as events to conspire to make everything go wrong again. It adds a lot of depth to Jan's character to glimpse the torment writhing in that little turnip obsessed soul of his.

    Proont
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 580
    edited December 2017
    Just wanted to give my opinion that Jahiera is one of the best characters in the game when it comes to her combat and spell casting. I think her romance is better developed and more rewarding than any of the other romances in the game. I can see why some are turned off by the idea that she would fall for charname after her husbands death but I don't see it being such a big deal. Growing up my parents had a family friend who lost his wife to cancer. 4 months later he was dating again and 6 months after her death he was engaged. Some people become so dependent on others that they can't stand being alone and in a weakened state they will often rush things. People who are not married but go through breakups do the same thing sometimes. Either way, it's a game and I find it hard to be so morally critical of her especially since you and her were already bound together by fate. She has a long history of adventuring with your character and you guys know each other and are traveling together while experiencing life and death situations where you depend on each other to live. I felt more interested in her than any of the other characters mainly because I like that she is flawed but has enough self value not to act like Aerie even when in crises.

    To me, it felt like you had a reason to be around each other that had nothing to do with romance and you guys talk like friends and you give her some support for her lost husband. When it finally happens I figure charname just went with it. It felt more natural than hooking up with some random mutilated elf from a carnival or some porn star evil chick that you have little in common with and even less of a reason to be adventuring with. I am talking about a neutral or good charname that utilizes the canon party. Jahiera's relationship with charname felt more natural than the others to me. Yes her losing her husband is something to criticize but it didn't bother me to much. I also tend to forget about time and the game feels like an adventure that goes on for years because of how large it is as a game. I guess as a gamer, the time after her husbands death and the moment when you actually start to have more than just friendly talks felt appropriate maybe because of my own lack of attention to the day counter on my saves games.

    PantalionThacoBellprofanitywarningleeux
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,093
    @Mirandel That is just one way the conversation can go, so it feels a little disingenuous to dismiss it out of hand for one dialogue path. Though even that path makes sense to me. Druids are all about the natural order, notice that raise dead/resurrection is nowhere in the druid spellbook. Raising the dead IS against the natural order, and I would expect druids to shun it.

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 580
    Why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo baggins to the volcano? Cause it would have sucked. I won't deny that the writing is questionable but the entire first dungeon has bigger problems like....why is Minsc and Jahiera even in the dungeon since they were not in my party during BG1? Jahiera says he shouldn't be raised because it's unatrual, or because he is too mutilated or any other circumstantial reason. It really doesn't matter to me but it's ok if it's not ok with others. They can't please everyone. I can think of multiple things in SOD that could have been handled better but oh well. It's still a cool game and given the options I still think Jahiera's romance is better integrated into the main storyline and it has a more engaging path that feels more natural to me.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,093
    @Mirandel I have to concede part of your point.
    "Show me here one notion on Jaheira's part (or anyone else part, for that matter) about mutilation the body beyond resurrection."

    I just got to that point in my run, and in none of the dialogue branches does she mention that. My bad, memory was wrong.

    PantalionMirandelProont
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 735
    Odd, I remember something like that too. Unless it was added by a mod. Years of Dungeon Be Gone-ing may have rotted my brain though ;).

    Exploring the legal and sociopolitical ramifications of resurrection is an interesting topic. Very few p&p campaigns, let alone video games, have explored that space... In my headcanon 'dead' party members are critically injured, while chunked members are beyond the magical equivalent of defibrillators...

    Proont
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 859
    Why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo baggins to the volcano?

    It's because Orodruin is heavily guarded by orcs, trolls, nazguls, etc.
    It always surprises me when people go with that example. ;)

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 452
    ThacoBell said:

    @Mirandel I have to concede part of your point.
    "Show me here one notion on Jaheira's part (or anyone else part, for that matter) about mutilation the body beyond resurrection."

    I just got to that point in my run, and in none of the dialogue branches does she mention that. My bad, memory was wrong.

    See? It's so logical, considering previous game(s) that our brain replaces in-game nonsense with one simple rational explanation and moves on. And if you are careful with dialogs selection, you can even pull it off (as I do in my games) without closing your eyes. But in some cases it's not possible and the only way is to not think about yet another nonsense at all or you can hurt your brain and brains of others trying to rationalize the irrational.

This discussion has been closed.