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[Spoiler] About Jaheira

124

Comments

  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 621

    @Mirandel - Jaheira's line "Yes, there are greater spells that raise even the aged dead, but they leech from the caster, and I will not ask that of someone! Khalid would not have it!" is an unused line from Jaheira's dialog file that was re-inserted by BG2 UB. The original line from BG2 that UB replaced is:

    "He... Khalid... is dead, and has been so for some time! Beyond a point, there can be no raising, especially when the body has been... has been desecrated!"

    So, @ThacoBell is correct about Jaheira stating that Khalid's body has been desecrated to the point of not being able to be raised.

    I don't think you can fault the original writers for revisions made by mods you choose to install.

    Fascinating. (And good to know my memory wasn't entirely out of whack.) It's worth remembering that video game characters are different to those in literature, or even in an ongoing tv series. Not only can they be altered, but other authors' choices can become canon... depending on which mods you choose to install or even write. So there's nothing stopping anyone from writing a mod to delay the start of Jaheira's romance for example, which might even then become popular enough to be canon. In some ways we get the characters we want...

    AstroBryGuyProont
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,621
    edited December 2017
    Jesus Christ, people, learn to use the quote function properly. It exists for a reason.

    @Pantalion -
    Pantalion said:

    - Jaheira was supposedly born during the Tethyrian civil war - between the 1347–1369 period

    If I remember correctly it says she grew up during the Tethyrian civil war, not specifically born during it. Iirc my own calculations of her she puts her around 25-45 years old, depending on how early during the war her family's castle was sacked as well as how young she still was at that time.


    Artona said:

    Why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo baggins to the volcano?

    It's because Orodruin is heavily guarded by orcs, trolls, nazguls, etc.
    It always surprises me when people go with that example. ;)
    Just like Jaheira didn't have Khalid brought back from the dead because of "insert reason here". The truth is that they are holes in the writing that people rationalize in order to get enjoyment out of them.
    This is very off topic, but seriously, no. The fellowship not flying down to Mordor Mirror on giant golden eagles is not a plot hole. The whole point of the fellowship being small and limited to seven people is that they're going to try and sneak unnoticed into Mordor, because letting Sauron know they're coming is the absolute worst thing they could do. If that wasn't the case they might as well have done what Boromir wanted, joined up with the Gondor army and gone to Mount Doom with every soldier at their disposal. One does not simply fly into Mordor.

    MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainRaduzielProont
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    scriver said:

    Jesus Christ, people, learn to use the quote function properly. It exists for a reason.

    @Pantalion -

    Pantalion said:

    - Jaheira was supposedly born during the Tethyrian civil war - between the 1347–1369 period

    If I remember correctly it says she grew up during the Tethyrian civil war, not specifically born during it. Iirc my own calculations of her she puts her around 25-45 years old, depending on how early during the war her family's castle was sacked as well as how young she still was at that time.
    Meh. Typing out individual blockquote tags for fifteen different points is overwhelmingly tedious. Anyways:

    In-game biography
    “ When asked about her past, JAHEIRA glares as she speaks. She says that she was born in the Tethyr region to a loyalist of the King Alemander regime, unfortunately during the Tethyrian civil war. Her family was among the nobles targeted by the angry mobs of peasants, and she was only spared because a servant girl took her from their castle before it fell. They fled into the forest of Tethyr and stumbled across an enclave of druids willing to take the child.
    Jaheira grew up a very headstrong girl, believing that the only way to protect nature was to have an active role in the world. She seems to have little in common with Khalid, but even though her manner is often confrontational, she apparently cares deeply for him. Her admiration of Gorion is obvious, and she plainly states that whomever was responsible for his death will suffer an equal fate.


    So yeah, "born during" the war.

    This just shows how screwy the timeline is, since the game is set in 1368-1370, meaning the Tethyrian civil war is still actively going on in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II, and has only just settled in ToB, and Jaheira is at most twenty-one years old.

    Alternatively, this is 100% legit, and the whole thing is a massive ongoing Harper conspiracy trying to manipulate and monitor the Bhaalest Bhaalspawn.

    MirandelProont
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,621
    You are right, I misremembered what her biography said.
    Pantalion said:

    Meh. Typing out individual blockquote tags for fifteen different points is overwhelmingly tedious.

    Not half as tedious as trying to make sense of the scrambled mess that is the result of not doing it, I assure you.

    pekoMirandelProont
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 462
    edited December 2017
    scriver said:

    Jesus Christ, people, learn to use the quote function properly. It exists for a reason.

    @Pantalion -

    Pantalion said:

    - Jaheira was supposedly born during the Tethyrian civil war - between the 1347–1369 period

    If I remember correctly it says she grew up during the Tethyrian civil war, not specifically born during it. Iirc my own calculations of her she puts her around 25-45 years old, depending on how early during the war her family's castle was sacked as well as how young she still was at that time.


    Artona said:

    Why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo baggins to the volcano?

    It's because Orodruin is heavily guarded by orcs, trolls, nazguls, etc.
    It always surprises me when people go with that example. ;)
    Just like Jaheira didn't have Khalid brought back from the dead because of "insert reason here". The truth is that they are holes in the writing that people rationalize in order to get enjoyment out of them.
    This is very off topic, but seriously, no. The fellowship not flying down to Mordor Mirror on giant golden eagles is not a plot hole. The whole point of the fellowship being small and limited to seven people is that they're going to try and sneak unnoticed into Mordor, because letting Sauron know they're coming is the absolute worst thing they could do. If that wasn't the case they might as well have done what Boromir wanted, joined up with the Gondor army and gone to Mount Doom with every soldier at their disposal. One does not simply fly into Mordor.
    Well they could have had a single eagle and a single hobbit fly there at night and it would have been even more stealth and it would have erased two, four hour movies of people walking around in the wilderness and 19 endings that take up an entire bloated film. Everyone has a different excuse because it is a plot hole that wasn't addressed in the book or the film. Even the movie actors laugh at it in the commentary for the film adaption. I only mentioned it because people were saying the reason for Khalid not being brought back was a plot hole. As it turns out the writers actually did address the issue in the game so I guess there really is no point in arguing about it now. In any case I don't wish to get into arguments with a rabid fan base for LOTR as they are as bad as Harry Potter fans and I'll never hear the end of it lol. It is off topic and if anyone wants to start a separate thread I will be glad to avoid it.

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 858
    edited December 2017
    @the_sextein
    EDIT: Okay, I deleted part about LOTR. No point pondering about it and it's off topic anyway.
    I agree about Khalid. Unless we are to assume that Jaheira lies about desacration of the body, resurrection seems to be out of a question. And even if Jaheira did not want to resurrect Khalid I don't think it would mean that she doesn't love him, or anything. Bringing loved one back because we can't cope with loss seem to me as arrogant and selfish action, something what Snape would do with
    Lily Evans
    , not proof of love.
    It doesn't change my opinion that the romance is yuck though.

    Post edited by Artona on
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 462
    edited December 2017
    :)

    Post edited by the_sextein on
  • tbone1 said:

    @Mirandel Fair enough. However (and I decided not to mention it in my previous post, but what the hell), I have known people with my condition who decided to rely on prayer instead of medicine. Or “alternative medicine”. Or holistic crystals. Or coffee enemas. (This for a cancer with no cure. I kid you not.) And others just as, um, unusual.

    Poison Ivy and Poison Oak have a chemical that if it gets on your skin, it makes the immune system think its skin is foreign and attack it. If the cancer is internal, immunotherapy is more difficult.

    But what it all comes down to is in the AD&D world, the greatest power they have is healing and resurrection. Our world has bombs that can destroy the world, but nothing that can cure many diseases.

    porn star evil chick

    I went through the characters at here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Neutral_good
    All the neutral good ones are totally flawed and semi bad people, but they just lean to avoiding harm.

    Viconia's whole thing is she refused to kill someone and is an outcast and since that she never killed any innocents since. She killed in self-defense or in revenge for the people who murdered the nice guy who took her in despite her being a drow.

    The only thing that makes Viconia "evil" is that she worships Shar.

    Taking Khalid's body would slow down the party and perhaps sentence all of them to share Khalid's fate. Jahiera knows this. So, she makes the decision to leave Khalid's body behind.

    I leave the dungeons with my characters hauling tons of loot to sell for money. They are hauling so much they walk slow.






  • GarrusN7 said:

    a crazy half Elf mage who you seriously can't figure out if she likes you or just treats the whole thing Casual (like fuck me, I romance her in BG1 and next thing I know she sleeps with someone behind my back. Yes it's Never),

    Is there a romance guide for Neera? You know that lists what happens. The Enhanced Edition added romances of now characters in the first game, then again in dragonspear, then more in the second game. And there's sort of a continuity thing in the second as I don't think the scripts know who you were supposed to have or not romanced before.

    Also both Neera's portraits look like she has tons of makeup on and an unnatural tone. One looks like tons of powder and the other has some look like she's trying to mimic a natural skin tone but it fails, giving her a plastic look that I see when women cover themselves in makeup.



  • GarrusN7 said:

    a crazy half Elf mage who you seriously can't figure out if she likes you or just treats the whole thing Casual (like fuck me, I romance her in BG1 and next thing I know she sleeps with someone behind my back. Yes it's Never),

    Is there a romance guide for Neera? You know that lists what happens. The Enhanced Edition added romances of now characters in the first game, then again in dragonspear, then more in the second game. And there's sort of a continuity thing in the second as I don't think the scripts know who you were supposed to have or not romanced before.

    Also both Neera's portraits look like she has tons of makeup on and an unnatural tone. One looks like tons of powder and the other has some look like she's trying to mimic a natural skin tone but it fails, giving her a plastic look that I see when women cover themselves in makeup. Neera's portrait is the only one that doesn't look like natural skin tone, so maybe she's the type to go crazy on makeup.



  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    edited December 2017

    Neera

    Somebody in this thread (and I searched and searched and the post vanished) said that the Neera romance is very modern and they liked that.

    So I tracked down all Neera's romance dialog (had to sit through YouTube videos). So basically...
    1) First game she cares zero about you and just likes that you entertain her by being bold. (Of course it's not a regular man being bold to a woman, but a man who can rewind time if his flirting fails and a man who can potentially rewind time way years back if the woman later goes around accusing him of being too aggressive, which for an example see the stuff in Time Magazine's person of the year for 2017.)
    2) Then she says no, I'm a virgin and runs off.
    3) She gets involved with a scribe.
    4) She loses her virginity to him and then immediately after, she just gets bored of him and runs off without even a note.
    5) She says she refused to speak to him because she couldn't stand seeing him sad. But she didn't care that he was sad, only her seeing him sad.
    6) She meets up with the main character again and the dialog implies she takes his virginity.
    7) The epilogue says the main character chose to remain human at Neera's request not to leave her. Neera then soon afterward, leaves the protagonist without a note.

    This is horrible behavior!

    And then the dialogs where she competes for romance with other women.
    * In the original series, Aerie, Jahiera, and Viconia fought each other mildly by trading insults.
    * Neera refused to do that at all. She feigned complete disinterest, though if she said she prefer her she was clear she actually did have interest. She was all, "Well it doesn't matter to me."

    Every chaotic neutral character, except Jan Jansen also approached romances the same way. They can never keep interest in the same person for long. Jan though keeps interest in Lissa who repeatedly scorns him instead of finding someone else, despite him (based on his appearance) being very old. Why not Mazzy?

    For comparison, I notice the lawful good Rassad romance lines make Rassad out to be a really decent dude. Rassad is nice like Aerie without being whiny.

    For Neera being modern, yes this is very much just like women in modern Western society. So fickle. Only interested in herself. And divorce is so common. And 70% of divorces are initiated by women for the legal term, "dissatisfaction". This means boredom. The women destroy the lives her of husband and children simply because they are bored. And this is exactly like Neera and the other chaotic neutral characters (except Jan).

    If you break up with Neera for Dorn, Neera says she would break your heart but not do it for fun and Dorn would do it for fun. But Dorn stays loyal despite being a psychopathic killer.
    The Dorn quests have a ton of options for the funniest lines. When he's there to break up a wedding it's, "You can't marry, I'm pregnant with the groom's baby!"
    Later when a druid is all, "What brings you to this blasted place?" There's a line, "Blasted place? It looks like beautiful nature scenery." And a bunch of lines where you can claim to be a tourist.
    And Dorn never tries to go violent on you which you'd assume someone like him would.


    So Neera's romance is probably the most entertaining, she's the worst one for roleplaying any serious romance.



  • MothorMothor Member Posts: 49
    edited January 3
    Mirandel said:

    @Pantalion Add on top of it - it's Jaheira who adamantly refuses to take Khalid body with us to at least try to resurrect him. If you confront her on that - she leaves you in Irenicus dungeon and storms out in a rage.

    @ThacoBell "Not explicitly" romantic and "not romantic at all" are different things. As you see, OP did not plan to romance Jaheira, yet got her intent clearly and was shocked by behavior of that "grieving widow".
    As of Aery or Viconia - neither of them had any previous commitment and could jump in Charname's bed the second they met him should they want to. No comparison here.
    Oh, and in game elves are not that "philosophical about relationships": Kivan, Irenicus, Elessime and Solaufein would strongly disagree with such statement.


    Viconia actually had like 3 husbands before :smile:

    She beats Jaheira by far in such...commitments.

    And Aerie can fall for the spoony bard and have trouble with making her mind when a love triangle strikes.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 4,994
    @Mothor Yes, and Viconia killed them all too (if everything she says is to be taken at face value), so no, she has no prior commitment. Aerie also cleanly breaks off with Haer'Dalis before commiting. In fact if you have them at the same time and you are challenged, she never falls for Haer'Dalis because he sought violence as an answer, and no relationship between them happens.

    MirandelRaduzielProont
  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    Mothor said:

    Viconia actually had like 3 husbands before :smile:

    Three husbands and no children. It's sad, really.

  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    Skatan said:

    Seriously dude, you need to upgrade your views to more contemporary terms.

    If I was wrong, you could give counter-arguments. When someone has bad data, one simply responds with correct data. But when one responds with insults instead of data that means one can't find any fault with the data and simply doesn't like it being said.


  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 858
    How did we end up talking about Neera in the first place? Thread is about Jaheira, after all.

    recklessheart
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,836

    Skatan said:

    Seriously dude, you need to upgrade your views to more contemporary terms.

    If I was wrong, you could give counter-arguments. When someone has bad data, one simply responds with correct data. But when one responds with insults instead of data that means one can't find any fault with the data and simply doesn't like it being said.
    I could, but I won't. I'm not your parent nor your teacher, so it's not my role to teach you how to gather data if you feel the need it. Besides, considering what you wrote I would be very surprised you'd actually listen and contemplate anything I had to say anyways, so why should I waste my time shouting at the waves?

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,821
    Artona said:

    How did we end up talking about Neera in the first place? Thread is about Jaheira, after all.

    Right, we should all start whining about android! (Isn’t that this forum’s version of Godwin’s Law?)

    SkatanThacoBell
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,836
    tbone1 said:

    Artona said:

    How did we end up talking about Neera in the first place? Thread is about Jaheira, after all.

    Right, we should all start whining about android! (Isn’t that this forum’s version of Godwin’s Law?)
    I thought it was Abdel who's the Adolf of our version of Godwin's ;)

  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    Skatan said:

    Seriously dude, you need to upgrade your views to more contemporary terms. You're so oblivious and wrong it's not even funny.

    By contemporary terms, you mean modern Western culture. Despite it often changing, people in Western culture always think their culture is the best and always push conformity to that culture all over the world.

    Not everyone is from that culture.

    Africa has over a billion people and a much different culture than the West.
    There's 1.8 billion Muslims, or 24.1% of the world's population.
    There's about 1.4 billion people in China, which has a much different culture than the West.
    There's about 1.3 billion people in India, which also has a much different culture than the West.







  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    Pantalion said:

    "Past raising" and "Past resurrecting" are very different things, and the lady clearly wasn't in the mood to try very hard.

    I think Bioware just wanted to split up the NPCs. Having to always have a tag-along NPC in several cases was annoying. Players would either kill one of them and then remove them from their party. Or they would go in a building, remove them from their party and then flee out the door before the booted one can grab their friend to make them leave too.

    Also the dual-pairs kinda were boring. Xzar was more interesting than Montaron. Khalid was boring. Dynaheir was boring while Minsc was the funniest character until Jan Jansen came along.


  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,836

    Skatan said:

    Seriously dude, you need to upgrade your views to more contemporary terms. You're so oblivious and wrong it's not even funny.

    By contemporary terms, you mean modern Western culture. Despite it often changing, people in Western culture always think their culture is the best and always push conformity to that culture all over the world.

    Not everyone is from that culture.

    Africa has over a billion people and a much different culture than the West.
    There's 1.8 billion Muslims, or 24.1% of the world's population.
    There's about 1.4 billion people in China, which has a much different culture than the West.
    There's about 1.3 billion people in India, which also has a much different culture than the West.
    No, I do not mean as "western" since the western society is still a patriarchy, even though some of us living there are rising above it. My views aren't tied to any old culture, rather I'd argue the new, contemporary views on equality aren't bound to any old culture, but a new, cosmopolitan one.

    Arguing that archaic and non-contemporary views on women as being "flimsy" and blaim them all for ruining childrens lives and being the sole reasons for divorces since they get bored are "right" because so or so many ppl don't abide to it, is like arguing that racism is ok since it's common and prevalent in the world.

    Few(er) ppl damn a whole race nowdays based on prejudice, yet somehow it's ok to be prejudiced against a whole gender. I sincerely doubt you are a racist, but do you feel it's ok to be a misogynist?

    ArtonaThacoBellProont
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 858
    edited January 9
    For me romance with Neera seems to have healthiest dynamic of power among all romances (maybe with Jaheira on par). Viconia is clearly abusive towards Charname, while Aerie seem to be hopelessly unprepared for any "adult" relations.

    Pantalionsemiticgod
  • MakeAthkatlaGrtAgainMakeAthkatlaGrtAgain Member Posts: 132
    Skatan said:


    No, I do not mean as "western" since the western society is still a patriarchy, even though some of us living there are rising above it. My views aren't tied to any old culture, rather I'd argue the new, contemporary views on equality aren't bound to any old culture, but a new, cosmopolitan one.

    Arguing that archaic and non-contemporary views on women as being "flimsy" and blaim them all for ruining childrens lives and being the sole reasons for divorces since they get bored are "right" because so or so many ppl don't abide to it, is like arguing that racism is ok since it's common and prevalent in the world.

    Few(er) ppl damn a whole race nowdays based on prejudice, yet somehow it's ok to be prejudiced against a whole gender. I sincerely doubt you are a racist, but do you feel it's ok to be a misogynist?


    Since the games are based in the D&D universe, I will explain by D&D alignment. My argument was not on the law-chaos alignment. Different cultures have different views on monogamy.

    My criticism of Neera was on the good-evil axis. It was that she was cruel.

    In BG2EE she said she was with a scribe and she one day just abandoned him without even a note. That is an extremely cruel way to leave a marriage. And Neera since then just went wandering around so her previous scribe lover had no idea if she was kidnapped or hated him. She didn't explain anything just left. Neera said something like she didn't find it useful or lost interest. I'd dig up the quote but I don't trust the moderators. Basically Neera was bored and on a whim she left the scribe without an explanation. The scribe did nothing wrong, Neera just got a whim and snuck off leaving no note and wandered off so the scribe had no idea. In the epilogue of the Neera romance, it says she just up and abandoned the protagonist without a note again.

    Since this forum (especially its moderation staff) are extremely sexist against men, let's suppose it was a lesbian relationship. They are married and partner A just suddenly leaves partner B without a note. Partner B didn't do anything wrong, partner A just one day on a whim felt bored and left. If one partner in a lesbian relationship did that, would you not think it's cruel?



This discussion has been closed.