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And some that die deserve life

In infinity engine games we wade through a lot of blood. Sometimes however we are given the opportunity to spare opponents. In my install it is possible to spare Cythandria for example, and SCS lets you spare Kaishas (and makes natural wildlife less aggressive!). Are there any opponents who you wish you had a chance to parley with or spare? Any creatures you always regret having to fight?

ZaghoulMontresor_SPStummvonBordwehrArtonatypo_tillyProont
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Comments

  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,076
    My kobold pc having to fight all of his brethren :'( . I did like in SoD where a H/O PC could get a little insider info from the other H/O's in the camp based on race. Anytime though when given the option to parley, with humanoids and 'monsters' in particular, would be welcome. We have a few instances but not many overall, other than the 'stronger' critters like dragons and demons/devils.
    Seems like in the old 'Pool of Radiance' type games the option to parley was given more often IIRC.

    StummvonBordwehrAerakartypo_tillyProont
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    The only thing I even consider sparing is Korax the ghoul.

    ZaghoulShandyrArtona
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,076
    Pantalion said:

    The only thing I even consider sparing is Korax the ghoul.

    Poor ol guy, I always keep him until his hunger gets the better of him and even then try to leave him be.

    ShandyrPantalionStummvonBordwehrislandking
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,780
    Mantis37 said:

    Any creatures you always regret having to fight?

    Well I suppose I could have the odd pang about 'having' to fight someone like Thalantyr. Then of course sometimes regret takes on a different reason - I've regretted having to fight Kahrk on a number of occasions for instance.

    Montresor_SPArtona
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,076
    ThacoBell said:

    Every werewolf from the village in BG1.

    Yes. Esp. when I'm running or having a shapeshifter druid or spiritwalker shaman in the dang party.

    ThacoBell
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 2,808
    Centeol. Well, at least untiI get the option to ask her "Why are you so fat?". Then I just can't resist selecting that reply..

    ZaghoulUnderstandMouseMagicMontresor_SPProont
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 859
    Ogre from mind flayers lair.

    Zaghoultypo_tillyRaduzielSkatan
  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 1,994
    Pantalion said:

    The only thing I even consider sparing is Korax the ghoul.

    NOT after the time he went aggro on Imoen and stunned and killed her before the rest of the party could stop him.

    Heck, it cost me a day's trek back to the Beregost temple and several hundred GP to have her raised!

    tbone1Proont
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,100

    Yoshimo.

    Rest in peace, Broshimo.

    Montresor_SPPantalionAerakarProont
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 595
    The sahaguin king. Yes yes, I know he is evil and insane and his people also kills a lot of humanoid sailors and probably you should root for your home team, but hey, he could of killed me when he had the chance but didn't.

    Now for something I truly enjoy killing; dopplegangers. I hate them with a passion.

    UnderstandMouseMagictypo_tillyProont
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 735

    Not quite what the OP meant.

    But I've always wanted to save the Minatour/group who you see fighting the Mushrooms.

    There is a mini mod which changes this a little:


    http://www.shsforums.net/topic/41699-the-minotaur-and-lilacor/

    ZaghoulStummvonBordwehrProont
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,600
    If you side with the king you don't get him killed though.

    ThacoBell
  • InKalInKal Member Posts: 112
    All right, I'm going to tell you a story about Valygar's greatest victory in Improved Anvil.

    A long time ago, in a galaxy...I mean once upon a time in the east I was playing Improved Anvil and I was walking walking walking in Umar Hills with noble and humble ranger in my party named Valygar Corthala (who hated magic but strangely was able to cast some pretty neat spells himself...but that's a different story).
    So we were like walking walking walking walking walking...... when suddenly we heard a loud ROAARRRR and was attacked by the most terryfying mountain lion we have ever seen. I started casting aclarity-timestop-3xADHW when someone patted gently on my shoulder "Stop it, friend" I heard the calm and tranquil voice. Who and why have/has/had disrupted my overhelmingly powergaming magical combo? I turned around and I saw very noble, very serious but somewhat horny (you know what I mean) face value of my ranger friend Valygar. "Leave him to me" he whispered gently like a subtle touch of velvet on my almost hard as bone from years of practising necromancy cheek his oh so manly yet delicate like a new born kitten voice was. Then he just almost like unintentionally and totally effortlessly weaved his antimagic mighty from years of wood chopping yet delicate almost like Nalia's social justice's his ranger's muscular and veiny hands and casted his innate charm animal on the lion, calming the beast instantly and immediately feeding him with goodberries like his aura was cleansed already or something. Then he send the lion to the opposite corner of the map just to be sure. And that was THE GREATEST VALYGAR"S VICORY IN IMPROVED ANVIL. and ever.
    He later sliced the Mighty One in Underdark, grinded down countless numbers of powerfull golems of all genders and sizes, he even landed a finishing blow to Orcus, Princess of Undead and many others to many to even count not to mention post but all this was like not that much really, compared to the one and only VICTORY, masterfully (seriously, GGR Martin has nothing on me) described in perfect english above.

    InKal, "Autistic Sermons, sermon 777"

    Mantis37deltagotypo_tillyProont
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 595
    lroumen said:

    If you side with the king you don't get him killed though.

    I know. But I can't do that, then you doom his people. So, knife in the back it is.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    DrakeICN said:

    lroumen said:

    If you side with the king you don't get him killed though.

    I know. But I can't do that, then you doom his people. So, knife in the back it is.
    Personally I consider "kill the king, then kill the prince, dooming his people anyway" to be the moral choice in that particular quest. When they're not riddled with internal strife, Sahuagin raid coastal towns and aquatic elf communities for people to feed to sharks as sacrifices to Sekolah.

    StummvonBordwehrProont
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 595
    Pantalion said:

    DrakeICN said:

    lroumen said:

    If you side with the king you don't get him killed though.

    I know. But I can't do that, then you doom his people. So, knife in the back it is.
    Personally I consider "kill the king, then kill the prince, dooming his people anyway" to be the moral choice in that particular quest. When they're not riddled with internal strife, Sahuagin raid coastal towns and aquatic elf communities for people to feed to sharks as sacrifices to Sekolah.
    And when the Greeks conquered Troy, they butchered all the men (and old women), threw all children off the walls (also to a certain death) and sold all women as sex slaves. And when the christians conquered Jerusalem -II-, and when the Soviets conquered (half of) Germany -II- and when the Serbs attacked the Bosniaks -II- etc etc etc. There is a lot of grey zone out there, all you can be responsible for is the good or evil of your own actions.

    ThacoBellPantalionProont
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,482
    @InKal: So is Valygar like the main character in Improved Anvil, or what?

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,600

    @InKal: So is Valygar like the main character in Improved Anvil, or what?

    Him or cernd

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 595
    Pantalion said:

    DrakeICN said:

    There is a lot of grey zone out there, all you can be responsible for is the good or evil of your own actions.

    So... uh... Is genociding evil shark monsters good or evil? Or razing Drow cities?

    Asking for a friend.
    Tl;dr: Neither.

    Long answer;
    Well, there is this old philosophical issue about two men that have to spend the night in an ice-cold cave but there is only one blanket, and whomever does not get it will freeze to death* - so, who deserves to live?

    *Ignoring, of course, that the smartest course of action is to man-cuddle up together under the blanket, as the shared body heat increase both mans chances of surviving. Such an answer is cheating, in a way, in another way it is a failure to understand what philosophy is all about.

    As the greatest philosopher that ever lived, I of course have the answer; the struggle is divine. For instance, lets say you and a fellow student of origami are competing for the same position as head pillow case folder in a prestigious hotel, and as far as you can tell, your fellow student is every bit as skilled origamist as you are. So, who deserves the job? You both do** - you must both send your CV:s and present yourselves, and whomever gets it gets it. This why the struggle is divine; because the world is limited in resources, it is not possible to say that justice is served when either of equally deserving parties gets a resource of interest.

    **Excluding, of course, secondary considerations. Say you live in a box under a bridge and your friend lives in a mansion: probably you need the job more.

    Now, obviously, you do not need to bludgeon each others to death, like the men in the ice cave must, and taking such a harsh course of action when there is comparatively relatively little at stake is... unbalanced. But a little bit of constructive persuasion of the hotel is maybe not so bad? I mean, there is a line somewhere between acting faultlessly and murdering your rival that crosses from OK to not OK, but exactly where this line is drawn is not an interesting question, the knowledge that the line exists is.

    Now, lets complicate things a bit. Say you watch the two men in the ice cave beat each other in a desperate struggle over the blanket, and you are in the possession of a hunting rifle. Thus, you could affect who wins the blanket. Should you? If both men, as far as you can tell, then why would you? However, let's say that you happen to know that one of the men have stage IV cancer or something. That could motivate you to help the other guy win, correct? He has so much more life to live, should he only survive the night. But now lets say that you know that the other guy murdered his wife. Yeah, it was a dick thing to do, but you somehow (see * above) also know that he will never ever kill or even harm anyone else. Now, it is not so easy anymore, is it? One guy does not have much life left, but the other guy is a swine. How are these things quantified? Which is the worst; shooting the nice but soon dead anyway cancer dude or shooting the murder but much life left dude, or not pulling the trigger at all? The answer is, you can't really be judged, whatever you chose. All option had good and evil in them.

    This situation is very similar to genocide of evil shark monsters. Yeah, genocide is a dick move, but on the other hand, they have and will kill lots of people otherwise but on the other hand 1000 more factors but on the first hand again 1000 other factors...

    Thus, good and evil is best applied to very basic, very simple scenarios. I mean, they can be really really complex because they involve many elements, such as WWII, but if one side is fairly clearly assholes and one side is fairly clearly nice guys, like the Nazis vs the British, then the choice is easy and good*** and evil applies.

    ***Of course, war is always dirty business, and one would be fairly naive to assume all British soldiers will act like angels at all given times during the war. Hint: They did not. But overall, it is still easy to pick the more humane side.

    To genocide or not to genocide bloodthirsty raiders that yet fill an important ecological niche is NOT an easy scenario, and good and evil is thus equally difficult to discern.

    In fact, all attempts at justifying gruesome deeds is to the opposite a slippery slope. You thus create precedents, and precedents can be used and misused to argue for the necessity of other gruesome deeds, even capsizing good and evil on their heads, by virtue of logic derived from said precedents that when applied in simple scenarios favors what would otherwise be the obvious evil.

    For instance, nuking civilians is an act of good, in US logic.

    The most moral cause of action in non-simple scenarios is thus to act out your whim, whatever that so happens to be, but to NEVER attempt to justify those actions. Just roll with your decision and make no conclusion other than the conclusion that since the scenario was non-simple, thus good and evil does not apply.

    Ergo; genocide of evil shark monsters neither an act of good, nor of evil.

    PantalionrecklessheartProont
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,600
    I feel that you always have to weigh your decisions regardless of whether the case is difficult or not.
    In any case you always have more options than two.

    ThacoBellAerakarProont
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 689
    You want to know what I always say? "Always spare the mouthy one". That's what I always say.

    (actually, it really would be nice to talk your way out of that encounter outside the cloakwood mine. Drasus seems like such a friendly psychopath.)

    Proont
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,816
    Psychopaths are friendly, though. Until you really get to know them.

    Balrog99AerakarProontRaduziel
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 689
    That's why we'll only have superficial conversations over a head puppet as we drink large amounts of mead. Don't get to know them and they'll remain friendly.

    FinneousPJAerakarProont
  • InKalInKal Member Posts: 112

    @InKal: So is Valygar like the main character in Improved Anvil, or what?

    He can be. He has a very powerful kit (the Protector) and awesome upgrades. Your protagonist still is much more stronger (if your protag. is a necromancer or vagrant!). Vally is as strong as berserker (or even stronger) and in certain circumstances can even match the riskbreaker.

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