Much as I dislike both Parry and Discipline as skills, I agree with @Fardragon . Which is why I'd like to see some of this stuff unhardcoded, so that modders and module builders can create alternate functionality without NWNEE breaking the game for those who don't want to implement, or simply haven't implemented, said alternate functionality.
I would definitely want to disable / hide Parry and use Fighting Defensively and Total Defense modes instead. With perhaps some new feat for improved defensive finesse style.
And I'd like to be able to use proper 3e mechanics for resisting combat conditions (Knockdown and Disarm).
If it parries as many attacks as the description it's way too powerful. I suspect that if it blocked 3 attacks in the first flurry it would be too powerful. I would become a must have skill, trumping even Tumble for melee builds.
Frankly I doubt it can be balanced without changing how it works substantially. As pointed out earlier it's a skill roll vs BAB, which is inherently weighted in the favour of the parrier. The limitations in number of attacks is the only thing that stops it being mega.
I can see Parry specialists being extremely good, but I don't think it'd be worth it for characters who aren't willing to invest deep into it. For it to exceed attack bonuses in practice, you have to have a high Dex, be wearing light armor, and have enough feat/magic item investment in Parry to outweigh your opponent's feat/magic item investment in their attack roll. It's entirely possible to do all that, but it would require a lot more than a simple skill dump.
I can see Parry specialists being extremely good, but I don't think it'd be worth it for characters who aren't willing to invest deep into it. For it to exceed attack bonuses in practice, you have to have a high Dex, be wearing light armor, and have enough feat/magic item investment in Parry to outweigh your opponent's feat/magic item investment in their attack roll. It's entirely possible to do all that, but it would require a lot more than a simple skill dump.
It's a modified skill vs modified AB. Let's say you have a Fighter-based build with 13 Dex; you gave lots of Feats so can take Improved Parry, Skill Focus Parry & Epic Skill Focus Parry - that's 61 Parry Skill without any items and without pushing Dex. Same Fighter might have BAB 30, Strength 32, EWF and EP for an unadjusted AB of 45. The AB is capped at +20 from items and +6 from Strength, for 71. The Skill has a cap of +50, which it can get from items and spells (and Bard Song), plus a possible bonus from Dex of +6 for 117. I don't think it will be worried about losing a few points from an Armor Check Penalty.
Here's an idea that was implemented by a NWN2 server - they made Parry, along with certain Feats, deliver Deflection AC along the lines that Tumble delivers Dodge AC, which seems a reasonable way to give it some meaning without making it overpowered.
In case you don't know Deflection AC doesn't stack in NWN2, so there's no point in quoting their values.
If it parries as many attacks as the description it's way too powerful. I suspect that if it blocked 3 attacks in the first flurry it would be too powerful. I would become a must have skill, trumping even Tumble for melee builds.
Frankly I doubt it can be balanced without changing how it works substantially. As pointed out earlier it's a skill roll vs BAB, which is inherently weighted in the favour of the parrier. The limitations in number of attacks is the only thing that stops it being mega.
I can see Parry specialists being extremely good, but I don't think it'd be worth it for characters who aren't willing to invest deep into it. For it to exceed attack bonuses in practice, you have to have a high Dex, be wearing light armor, and have enough feat/magic item investment in Parry to outweigh your opponent's feat/magic item investment in their attack roll. It's entirely possible to do all that, but it would require a lot more than a simple skill dump.
Not neccessarily, there are items with bonuses, gloves +30 for example, then +15 from bard song, +6 from +12dexterity.
Also, the only target you would not be able to parry would be max AB player build (and with max dexterity build even that will be problem) and very high AB monsters.
Furthermore, the problem with parry based against AB roll is that the AB roll is decreased for each attack in round. So while perhaps you will have only 50% chance to block the enemy first attack with AB 60, the next attack willl have AB 55 next 50 then 45 etc. and these additional attacks will become very easy to parry as the skill rank is still the same.
Parry cannot be fixed just like that and be done with it - it would result is serious unabalance that module builders would need to handle and there are not many techniques to handle it, the only thing I can imagine is a skill penalty.
Why not subtract 5 from the defensive parry roll for each successive parry for a round? This would essentially still give a bonus to the parrier, but would limit his effectiveness for successive parries. Perhaps, a riposté should subtract 10 from a successive parry roll, ensuring that you don't just end up with riposté spam from parry heavy characters.
Sadly, Parry was one of those ideas that just didn't get the development time it needed. We were trying to address a few issues with the original game with the Parry skill. 1. The desire to have a defensive finesse fighter. We wanted a finesse fighter who could offset attacking enemies and could swap between offense and defense as the party required. 2. We needed a sink for skill points for the melee classes as there simply were not enough skills (in the original release) for Fighter classes to spend points in 3. Parry was initially implemented while the combat system was still going through revision and it wasn't really re-examined when we added the epic levels, so it needs some re-work.
So far I'm reading people want us to improve the skill by making it more open to modification on a server basis. Is that correct?
It would be nice if its function were open to modification, yes. And it's a bit off topic but I'd say much the same for discipline (and feats that call for its ranks, like disarm/knockdown)
1. The desire to have a defensive finesse fighter. We wanted a finesse fighter who could offset attacking enemies and could swap between offense and defense as the party required.
IMO the correct answer would be to implement the Duelist prestige class and/or convert to 3.0 the Swashbuckler class from the Complete Warrior.
2. We needed a sink for skill points for the melee classes as there simply were not enough skills (in the original release) for Fighter classes to spend points in
There should be plenty of official skills now to burn those skill points, worst case scenario is implementing them into NWN.
3. Parry was initially implemented while the combat system was still going through revision and it wasn't really re-examined when we added the epic levels, so it needs some re-work.
No offense intended, but I always thought one of the weakness of NWN was Bioware trying to tweak the 3.0 rules, in the 1st and 2nd edition era that was kind of expected, but by the time third edition rolled the rules were really sturdy (as in, there is a real reason for every rule, they were not an ugly mess like in ad&d) and tweaking them inhouse created more problems (on the long term) than it solved.
IMO parry should be removed with the option of being enabled (in a .ini maybe?) for those fringe cases that really require it. If there is really need to add/expand/tweak the rules there is the real option of contacting Jonathan Tweet and/or Skip Williams (original game designers of 3.0) since from what the wikipedia says, they might have some free time. There is a reason there are professional game designers nowadays, even tough their work (like that of other writers) might be seem as superfluous by some.
@mangamuscle "There should be plenty of official skills now to burn those skill points"
There are over 60 official D&D skills and after that it depends on how many of the subdivided skills you use. There is knowledge planes but also knowledge planes (insert specific plane), craft skills for everything you can imagine, perform for all instrument types. Profession for every type of profession used for passive income and situational bonuses or specific feats like with profession (sailor) applying to boat things.
One of the great things about it is that there are so many skills you can define your character as uniquely specialized. One of the criticisms is that because there are so many skills you can't be the best in everything and max out everything.
Some good generic skills would be Jump, Climb, and Swim which would be useful to a warrior to overcome obstacles. Skill tricks also give you a lot of unique tactical options like mini feats bought with skill points, usable once per combat encounter only.
@mangamuscle "There should be plenty of official skills now to burn those skill points"
There are over 60 official D&D skills and after that it depends on how many of the subdivided skills you use. There is knowledge planes but also knowledge planes (insert specific plane), craft skills for everything you can imagine, perform for all instrument types. Profession for every type of profession used for passive income and situational bonuses or specific feats like with profession (sailor) applying to boat things.
One of the great things about it is that there are so many skills you can define your character as uniquely specialized. One of the criticisms is that because there are so many skills you can't be the best in everything and max out everything.
Some good generic skills would be Jump, Climb, and Swim which would be useful to a warrior to overcome obstacles. Skill tricks also give you a lot of unique tactical options like mini feats bought with skill points, usable once per combat encounter only.
Jump, Climb and Swim would be really cool to have for scripted interactions. Those are pretty basic adventuring skills. And there's already Ride. All of those add something new, while Parry already exists in the system as Combat Expertise.
IMO parry should be removed with the option of being enabled (in a .ini maybe?) for those fringe cases that really require it. If there is really need to add/expand/tweak the rules there is the real option of contacting Jonathan Tweet and/or Skip Williams (original game designers of 3.0) since from what the wikipedia says, they might have some free time. There is a reason there are professional game designers nowadays, even tough their work (like that of other writers) might be seem as superfluous by some.
Why remove it at all, though? There are modules that make some good modifications to parry and make it useful. Why mess with them and deprive them of a skill they utilize while you could simply not use it yourself?
If backward compatibility really is what EE attempts to maintain, then removing parry is really a VERY bad idea.
If you really need parry removed for any reason, let's have it the other way - have an INI option to disable it, but leave it enabled by default. The less an average player needs to mess with INI config, the better, and there's literally no way in which having parry around can be a nuisance except for "I don't want useless skills on my skill list", but then you'd need to remove a lot of other stuff from the game (dirty fighting, as one of many examples).
We have four guiding principles with regards to Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition: Do not break backwards compatibility; Do not change - unhardcode and open up for modding/extension, and add new functionality; Step forward slowly and try to keep it stable; New content is king.
Why remove it at all, though? There are modules that make some good modifications to parry and make it useful. Why mess with them and deprive them of a skill they utilize while you could simply not use it yourself?
Because we are talking about the Enhanced Edition where most bugs hopefully will get fixed and yes, parry *is* a bug, a solution to a problem that no longer exists, a throwback to baldur's gate in a game that uses a new version (not just an update) of the game rulesystem. For people wanting to use parry there is already the diamond edition at gog or steam available, keeping bugs as "features" was one of the reasons Windows (the operative system) has been unstable.
People are making it sound like if parry is a must have when TBT if it is removed from gameplay it will not break down any module, just prevent any player from using any modules specific options (which must be rare to say the least) and making him/her choose another skill to spend their points because most people will make new characters when they buy NWN:EE.
1. Leave it as it is; it's a homebrew skill that is only situationally useful at pre-Epic levels, which means that it doesn't affect PWs unless they choose to make it so. Downside is that people waste skill points thinking the description is accurate. 2. Remove it; few will miss it and it's true to D&D, but there is a risk it will break something minor somewhere. 3. Change it, making it useful but not too useful - problem is that it might take time away from something more deserving.
There is no standout solution - there are pluses and minuses to all. Anyone got something extra that could swing it?
I don't see what the downside is to expanding skill 2da with options similar to NWN2 like the "remove" column with values of true/false or 1/0.
It seems parry could easily get "fixed" by instead attending to requests for skills.2da modder improvements and unlocking the combat phases so it doesn't use 3 flurries.
I am all for homebrewing when it is the community doing it, official D&D products should use official rules. If BD wants something "homebrewy" they can implement some of the options in the Unearthead Arcana book, they can make them optional or even a separate download (can you say DLC three times fast?).
I am all for opening Parry up to scripters. Much of the frustration for us builders was the hardcoded parts of the game (which gave rise to various runabouts like NWNX, etc). Opening up more of the hardcoded parts is a godsend for us builders!
I would also vote for making Parry to be closer to the description, but that is my preference.
We have four guiding principles with regards to Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition: Do not break backwards compatibility; Do not change - unhardcode and open up for modding/extension, and add new functionality; Step forward slowly and try to keep it stable; New content is king.
That does not prove that what you seem to think it proves, but better luck next time.
Why remove it at all, though? There are modules that make some good modifications to parry and make it useful. Why mess with them and deprive them of a skill they utilize while you could simply not use it yourself?
Because we are talking about the Enhanced Edition where most bugs hopefully will get fixed and yes, parry *is* a bug, a solution to a problem that no longer exists, a throwback to baldur's gate in a game that uses a new version (not just an update) of the game rulesystem. For people wanting to use parry there is already the diamond edition at gog or steam available, keeping bugs as "features" was one of the reasons Windows (the operative system) has been unstable.
People are making it sound like if parry is a must have when TBT if it is removed from gameplay it will not break down any module, just prevent any player from using any modules specific options (which must be rare to say the least) and making him/her choose another skill to spend their points because most people will make new characters when they buy NWN:EE.
I'm afraid just because you want something to be a bug doesn't make it a bug. Parry is a feature - a badly implemented one, perhaps, but a FEATURE. A FEATURE that many modules utilize. So stop asking for it to be removed just because you don't like it.
For people wanting to use parry there is already the diamond edition at gog or steam available
I have no words to respond to this, so I'll paraphrase it.
You want someone playing a module utilizing parry, someone who WANTS to use parry, to use a version that is older, more buggy, with fewer features and less optimized just because you can't stand having a subjectively useless skill displayed on a skill list?
The only thing stopping me from slamming my desk when reading such "arguments" is the knowledge that Beamdog will never do anything like this for such a ridiculous reason.
We have four guiding principles with regards to Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition: Do not break backwards compatibility; Do not change - unhardcode and open up for modding/extension, and add new functionality; Step forward slowly and try to keep it stable; New content is king.
That does not prove that what you seem to think it proves, but better luck next time.
Some civility would be nice. In any case, I don't think this discussion is productive anymore. I just wanted to help people avoid wasting their time asking for things that will not be done.
We have four guiding principles with regards to Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition: Do not break backwards compatibility; Do not change - unhardcode and open up for modding/extension, and add new functionality; Step forward slowly and try to keep it stable; New content is king.
That does not prove that what you seem to think it proves, but better luck next time.
Some civility would be nice. In any case, I don't think this discussion is productive anymore. I just wanted to help people avoid wasting their time asking for things that will not be done.
That was civil and you are not helping: Beamdog is openly acknowledging that they are departing from backwards compatibility. Pretending otherwise is folly.
I would strongly advise Beamdog not to throw backwards compatibility to the wind. I would also cast my vote to keep Parry, and any other base feature in the game. Less features is not what I expect from the Enhanced Edition, and removing skills that were previously in the game should not be an option unless it is something that others must toggle after the fact. By default the game should remain all previous functionality and feature-set.
They're not renewing a license for the bink videos because possibly it costs too much. However I believe the license for the parry skill remains intact.
Parry is a feature - a badly implemented one, perhaps, but a FEATURE.
Back when NWN was released, floppy disk drives were a feature of every personal computers, which was barely used anymore (NWN itself was released in cd-rom). NWN long pre-release development period meant it was caught with the deprecating of AD&D in lieu of a new edition of D&D and the including of the parry skill was a result of said transition. Fast forward a few years and personal computers stopped bundling floppies in new computers. Asking a decade later to include in each and every new copy of NWN:EE the parry skill is no different than yearning for new computers to have floppy disk drives, it is a kludge that adds no functionality and only burdens coders and game designers with extra work that can be better spent elsewhere. In layman terms, parry was a feature, today it is nothing but a bug.
They're not renewing a license for the bink videos because possibly it costs too much. However I believe the license for the parry skill remains intact.
The issue is not the cost of the bink license, but the cost of maintenance of old source code for a standard that nowadays adds nothing good but adds an extra hurdle for content creators. There is no "parry license", it was ok by wotc a long time ago and now it is up to BD to include it or not since 3.0 is a version of D&D that is "no longer supported" (as in, the staff working atm in d&d for wotc no longer has intimate knowledge of that version of the game system).
Back when NWN was released, floppy disk drives were a feature of every personal computers, which was barely used anymore (NWN itself was released in cd-rom). NWN long pre-release development period meant it was caught with the deprecating of AD&D in lieu of a new edition of D&D and the including of the parry skill was a result of said transition. Fast forward a few years and personal computers stopped bundling floppies in new computers. Asking a decade later to include in each and every new copy of NWN:EE the parry skill is no different than yearning for new computers to have floppy disk drives, it is a kludge that adds no functionality and only burdens coders and game designers with extra work that can be better spent elsewhere. In layman terms, parry was a feature, today it is nothing but a bug.
Your analogy is fundamentally flawed.
The first issue with it is that we're not asking Beamdog to "include" parry in the EE. We're asking NOT to have it removed.
The second issue is that there is a huge different between hardware and software production and sale. You'd need to specifically include a floppy drive for every new computer you make, which takes resources. Meanwhile, leaving Parry as it is in "each and every new copy of NWN:EE" as you put it is exactly the same as simply... not doing anything with it. Don't try to make it seem like it's any effort to not remove a feature you don't like.
Don't try to make it seem like it's any effort to not remove a feature you don't like.
It is a known fact that it will require an effort from BD to "Fix parry", which is the name of the thread and the reason the tello card was created. If manhours were unlimited I would care little, but they are a very finite resource and there are plenty of other things (I could make a list that would go on and on and on like the energizer bunny) I rather see the BD team tackle.
Comments
And I'd like to be able to use proper 3e mechanics for resisting combat conditions (Knockdown and Disarm).
In case you don't know Deflection AC doesn't stack in NWN2, so there's no point in quoting their values.
Also, the only target you would not be able to parry would be max AB player build (and with max dexterity build even that will be problem) and very high AB monsters.
Furthermore, the problem with parry based against AB roll is that the AB roll is decreased for each attack in round. So while perhaps you will have only 50% chance to block the enemy first attack with AB 60, the next attack willl have AB 55 next 50 then 45 etc. and these additional attacks will become very easy to parry as the skill rank is still the same.
Parry cannot be fixed just like that and be done with it - it would result is serious unabalance that module builders would need to handle and there are not many techniques to handle it, the only thing I can imagine is a skill penalty.
IMO parry should be removed with the option of being enabled (in a .ini maybe?) for those fringe cases that really require it. If there is really need to add/expand/tweak the rules there is the real option of contacting Jonathan Tweet and/or Skip Williams (original game designers of 3.0) since from what the wikipedia says, they might have some free time. There is a reason there are professional game designers nowadays, even tough their work (like that of other writers) might be seem as superfluous by some.
There are over 60 official D&D skills and after that it depends on how many of the subdivided skills you use. There is knowledge planes but also knowledge planes (insert specific plane), craft skills for everything you can imagine, perform for all instrument types. Profession for every type of profession used for passive income and situational bonuses or specific feats like with profession (sailor) applying to boat things.
One of the great things about it is that there are so many skills you can define your character as uniquely specialized. One of the criticisms is that because there are so many skills you can't be the best in everything and max out everything.
Some good generic skills would be Jump, Climb, and Swim which would be useful to a warrior to overcome obstacles. Skill tricks also give you a lot of unique tactical options like mini feats bought with skill points, usable once per combat encounter only.
If backward compatibility really is what EE attempts to maintain, then removing parry is really a VERY bad idea.
If you really need parry removed for any reason, let's have it the other way - have an INI option to disable it, but leave it enabled by default. The less an average player needs to mess with INI config, the better, and there's literally no way in which having parry around can be a nuisance except for "I don't want useless skills on my skill list", but then you'd need to remove a lot of other stuff from the game (dirty fighting, as one of many examples).
Backwards compatibility trumps all change requests.
Do not break backwards compatibility;
Do not change - unhardcode and open up for modding/extension, and add new functionality;
Step forward slowly and try to keep it stable;
New content is king.
People are making it sound like if parry is a must have when TBT if it is removed from gameplay it will not break down any module, just prevent any player from using any modules specific options (which must be rare to say the least) and making him/her choose another skill to spend their points because most people will make new characters when they buy NWN:EE.
1. Leave it as it is; it's a homebrew skill that is only situationally useful at pre-Epic levels, which means that it doesn't affect PWs unless they choose to make it so. Downside is that people waste skill points thinking the description is accurate.
2. Remove it; few will miss it and it's true to D&D, but there is a risk it will break something minor somewhere.
3. Change it, making it useful but not too useful - problem is that it might take time away from something more deserving.
There is no standout solution - there are pluses and minuses to all. Anyone got something extra that could swing it?
It seems parry could easily get "fixed" by instead attending to requests for skills.2da modder improvements and unlocking the combat phases so it doesn't use 3 flurries.
No need to remove something here.
I am all for opening Parry up to scripters. Much of the frustration for us builders was the hardcoded parts of the game (which gave rise to various runabouts like NWNX, etc). Opening up more of the hardcoded parts is a godsend for us builders!
I would also vote for making Parry to be closer to the description, but that is my preference.
You want someone playing a module utilizing parry, someone who WANTS to use parry, to use a version that is older, more buggy, with fewer features and less optimized just because you can't stand having a subjectively useless skill displayed on a skill list?
The only thing stopping me from slamming my desk when reading such "arguments" is the knowledge that Beamdog will never do anything like this for such a ridiculous reason.
I think that's the point.
The first issue with it is that we're not asking Beamdog to "include" parry in the EE. We're asking NOT to have it removed.
The second issue is that there is a huge different between hardware and software production and sale. You'd need to specifically include a floppy drive for every new computer you make, which takes resources. Meanwhile, leaving Parry as it is in "each and every new copy of NWN:EE" as you put it is exactly the same as simply... not doing anything with it. Don't try to make it seem like it's any effort to not remove a feature you don't like.