Don't try to make it seem like it's any effort to not remove a feature you don't like.
It is a known fact that it will require an effort from BD to "Fix parry", which is the name of the thread and the reason the tello card was created. If manhours were unlimited I would care little, but they are a very finite resource and there are plenty of other things (I could make a list that would go on and on and on like the energizer bunny) I rather see the BD team tackle.
Sure. Then tell them that you'd rather they not spend time on fixing Parry... rather than telling them they should spend time on REMOVING Parry.
Removing parry is just a one time code removal and I will voice my suggestions abour REAL features in other threads. But when the choice is between wasting time and doing another thing, my vote will never go to wasting time. If leaving things as it is was the best course of action, this tello card would simply not exist.
For what reason would a "remove" column in skills.2da, feats.2da, spells.2da, classes.2da, not suffice for those that want to remove rows from being used?
For what reason would a "remove" column in skills.2da, feats.2da, spells.2da, classes.2da, not suffice for those that want to remove rows from being used?
Have you heard the rule "If you break it, you fix it"? Parry is broken at origin (by reasons already outlined in this thread) and trying to fix it will require time, even if a remove column is added to NWN:EE and will never be "perfect" (the same a broken jar fixed with glue will never be perfect).
Some people may argue that D&D 3.0 has its own set of broken rules (most of which were fixed in 3.5 and there was another set of fixes in pathfinder), but most of those broken rules become a real problem only in multiplayer (PW or LAN party), that is one of the reasons I wish for unharcoding as much of the ruleset as possible, so i.e. if some GM deems that players are abusing multiclassing rules, they could reduce the number of base classes one character can have to less than three (or if another one thinks the opposite, increase it).
As I have said, homebrewing should be performed by end-users (unharcoding the ruleset is a means to that end), BD will have their hands full implementing new features into NWN that were left out due to time constraints (or that simply were not feasible back then, i.e. the original NWN release hoped for 256 mb of ram, there was a real limit of how big a PW could be, if BD implements 64 bits, then we are talking about more than two gigabytes in size.)
P.S. So yeah, if an user creates a hak or script to create a skill called "parry" that replicates the functionality of said Bioware homebrew, by all means, that would be wonderful, anyone that misses it could apply it and use it in their game.
I don't think it's that complicated. Several other homebrew features exist in stark contrast to the D&D design method such as Premonition, Shadow Shield, Isaacs Greater Missile Storm, Spell Mantle, Spell Breach and many others. If you don't like them remove them, no big deal, this would be no different.
The main problem with parry being broken is because of combat flurries but that's the bottleneck to most combat modding issues too. They already talked about combat in general in one of the first streams so why not just wait until that's dealt with.
I don't think it's that complicated. Several other homebrew features exist in stark contrast to the D&D design method such as Premonition, Shadow Shield, Isaacs Greater Missile Storm, Spell Mantle, Spell Breach and many others. If you don't like them remove them, no big deal, this would be no different.
The main problem with parry being broken is because of combat flurries but that's the bottleneck to most combat modding issues too. They already talked about combat in general in one of the first streams so why not just wait until that's dealt with.
It's not adding or detracting anything.
Funny that all those homebrew things are very powerful.
Fixing the three flurries is going to have all sorts of side effects, e.g. when you make an attack from stealth the first flurry is from hiding and gets the benefit of the opponent being flat footed. I believe that in PnP if you catch the opponent flat-footed then he's flat-footed the whole round, but then NWN HiPS is rather better than the PnP version. And then there's Uncanny Dodge, which is widely recognised as being overpowered for such a low level feat, and which would now become even more valuable. Plus we don't have Feint in the game.
A creature attacked while unaware is affected by surprise and is normally flat footed for a round. However you can be invisible and the creature can be aware of your presence but unable to detect you. Flanking by itself is also enough to trigger a sneak attack, requiring an ally in melee range of the target on the opposite end. So a rules accurate sneak attack deals with a number of scenarios that you need to differentiate between.
Uncanny dodge itself is not quite accurate either. In 3.5 there are two types, one improved, the first only retains dex bonus to AC if caught flat footed, doesn't prevent flat footed, but the second prevents flanked if the rogue doesn't have 4 or higher sneak attack granting class levels than you. NWN2 attempted to do this but ended up breaking the whole thing in the process.
HiPS can be tricky because it requires location situational scripting for accuracy. As a Su it wont function in an anti-magic field, both for shadow dancer and the 3.5 assassin version. Only the Ranger's HiPS is an Ex but it requires natural terrain only. All versions also require to be within 10ft of shadows which I think is roughly a third of a tile area.
All that is just about rules implementations that aren't very well fleshed out by default however.
Some fun things are that items can't have dodge bonuses, and the skills Set Trap, Lore, and Taunt also don't exist either, so not just Parry and Discipline.
I agree making features rules accurate should be left up to the modding community because it can be really particular and drastically alter the game experience from hack'n'slash to an extreme survival game.
NWN2 Uncanny Dodge now has a community "fix", but pure-ish Rogues now have problems hitting things on those servers that have implemented it, given the number of popular classes that grant the feat early.
How about, fix Parry do that it works as intended but add a condition to parry mode that roots the character a la a blade’s defensive spin in BGII.
This way, yes if you’ve got an epic party skill you can go toe to toe with people in melee with great success (IIRC critical hits ignore Parry so, you’re epic rouge with Parry still won’t want to stand against a weapon master) but, if you just stand around in Parry mode you can be picked apart by spells or ranged weapons.
Maybe also add a condition where Parry does not work against flanking attacks.
So yes, it will be very powerful but only situationally.
How about, fix Parry do that it works as intended but add a condition to parry mode that roots the character a la a blade’s defensive spin in BGII.
This way, yes if you’ve got an epic party skill you can go toe to toe with people in melee with great success (IIRC critical hits ignore Parry so, you’re epic rouge with Parry still won’t want to stand against a weapon master) but, if you just stand around in Parry mode you can be picked apart by spells or ranged weapons.
Maybe also add a condition where Parry does not work against flanking attacks.
So yes, it will be very powerful but only situationally.
Critical hits don't ignore parry, but parry is very similar to AC in that a natural 20 will automatically hit and threaten a crit (though double 20's doesn't automatically make a critical hit as the AC or Parry skill might be higher then 20 points above your unmodified AB).
Honestly, high AC will always be greater then high parry, just because in either cases a 20 will get past such but in the case of a high AC you're at least attacking back with every single attack you have per round and it applies to every opponent regardless of number of attacks coming in.
The problem is it's not an either or - you can have high AC and high Parry; and Epic Dodge too.
A "fixed" parry has no place in the game as it's just too powerful. PWs would end up banning it, just like the homebrewed Devastating Critical, once they figure it out.
I strongly disagree. No feat or skill in the game should be removed, if only for the sing
True. I forgot on backwards compatibility.
That however means that the parry shouldn't be touch at. Fixing it could cause serious balance issues. The only option here is to somehow let us customize it. Which will be very hard as the parry code is shattered into so many places...
Maybe I’m missing something, and since I never played on pvp servers that’s a strong possibility, but even working as intended I’m not seeing the overwhelming benefit of Parry.
It seems like the issue is extremely high levels where Parry outpoints BAB but...
As a rogue type, HiPS seems to give way more advantage than Parry. It’s ultimately defensive and allows for sneak attacks. With Parry you can still get hit by natural 20s and lose the benefit of sneak attacks.
As a fighter type, sitting in Parry mode is a massive drop in DPS. Again, maybe I’m wrong but I’ve always felt when playing a high level fighter (or variation thereof) my most effective strategy is usually to go in and lay the smack down on something, not wait for it to attack me.
If you’re fighting multiple opponents who have roughly the same number of attacks per round that you do, then I think there’s a point where it becomes more of a burden than a boon.
Working as intended it can be pretty useful if you’re fighting one on one with someone of equal or lesser level, and not great outside of that.
Maybe I’m missing something, and since I never played on pvp servers that’s a strong possibility, but even working as intended I’m not seeing the overwhelming benefit of Parry.
Indeed the balance starts to be problematic at epic levels. Starting 21, you get only 1/2 BAB per level but you get +1 to skill (basically). Epic skill focus grants +10 too. And there is at least one item granting +30 to the parry (gloves). High level bard song +15 for several minutes. It is very very easy to get over 90 rank in parry as dexterity based character.
While parry isn't as usefull when fighting multiple enemies, if parry got fixed I can see already a build which would be invincible 1vs1. AC 80+, Epic Dodge, 90+ Parry. Ultimate AC Tank.
Maybe I’m missing something, and since I never played on pvp servers that’s a strong possibility, but even working as intended I’m not seeing the overwhelming benefit of Parry.
Indeed the balance starts to be problematic at epic levels. Starting 21, you get only 1/2 BAB per level but you get +1 to skill (basically). Epic skill focus grants +10 too. And there is at least one item granting +30 to the parry (gloves). High level bard song +15 for several minutes. It is very very easy to get over 90 rank in parry as dexterity based character.
While parry isn't as usefull when fighting multiple enemies, if parry got fixed I can see already a build which would be invincible 1vs1. AC 80+, Epic Dodge, 90+ Parry. Ultimate AC Tank.
I see...
Then what if, starting at level 21, every point added to the Parry skill only raised the success of Parry by half a point, so it stayed in line with BAB?
You still have SF, ESF and Improved Parry. These are far better than EWF/EP. And items tend to be more generous to skills than to weapons. Basically there would be a lot of adjusting to do, and it would have to specific to Parry, to not break anything else. I'm pretty certain that if it was an easy job it would have been done either in NWN or NWN2.
Well yes, you’re right. But if you’ve spent a bunch of feats and equipment slots to maximize a certain skill that makes you powerful in a certain situation, is it really so terrible?
I’d still argue that HiPS and devestating critical are more powerful in that same 1 on 1 situation plus a whole bunch more.
I’d still argue that HiPS and devestating critical are more powerful in that same 1 on 1 situation plus a whole bunch more.
Devastating Critical is very powerful for sure, which is why it is removed by most PWs. But two wrongs don't make a right, eh?
No, they don’t. But I’m just saying, in terms of epic level game play I think there’s a lot of balance issues, and a fixed Parry skill would not be the worst of them.
And I’d argue that those issues are really prevalent in terms of PVP which has never been a strength with D&D.
Plus, if it’s fixed and PWs don’t like it, they can remove or nerf it the same way they did with devastating critical.
That’s one way of looking at it. I’m just trying to discuss how to fix Parry, since this is what this thread is for.
Full on removing it doesn’t seem to be an option.
I also don’t see it as being a terrible thing to have in this game which is more combat heavy than a pen and paper D&D session.
Earlier in the thread Trent wrote something along the lines of allowing modders to have some control of it, which I think sort of falls along the lines of what we’re discussing the PW balance.
In the mean time, I’m trying to contribute to a possible fix, maybe some default setting that is useful but not overpowered. I fully admit I don’t know what that is, that’s what the discussion is for.
You mentioned how it basically doubles BAB after lever 21. That’s a good point. I think the solution to that is by having two point of Parry skill add a single point to a character’s Parry ability would help balance that.
So I guess the question is, with that change, how overpowered would it be?
Here’s my thoughts on that, which again I freely admit could be wrong. One way to tell if something is generally overpowered when most characters are built around it, or it is included to the exclusion of other abilities.
If I have a tank would I go to Parry mode every fight, or most fights, because it is tactically superior to other ways of playing my character? I would argue no, it is situational at best. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Same could be said for a rogue or bard, both of which I see having more use for Parry if they get into a situation where they need to survive in melee. For rogues, personally I would ignore Parry for HiPS, all Parry does is alllow me to survive awhile longer during a 1 on 1 melee encounter, and not that much longer if I’m fighting a full BAB opponent who will generally have more attacks than me. It also takes my sneak attack off the table.
Same is true for a bard minus the sneak attack. Using a song to boost my skill would be very useful... I think using curse song in combination with more offensive tactics would be a more common and useful tactic.
So I guess my point is, a fixed Parry can be a defensive tool that can be useful in limited situations but not overwhelmingly so.
A Rogue might have both Parry and HiPS, because he can parry when he's not hiding and reduce or eliminate the damage he's taking.
The Bard might add Parry on top of a high AC and Mirror Image to make himself virtually impossible to hit, meanwhile he gains some riposte attacks plus damage from curse song (say).
These are just thoughts off the top of my head - if parry is "fixed" then the creative minds of the whole player-base will find numerous ways if taking advantage.
Maybe I’m missing something, and since I never played on pvp servers that’s a strong possibility, but even working as intended I’m not seeing the overwhelming benefit of Parry.
Indeed the balance starts to be problematic at epic levels. Starting 21, you get only 1/2 BAB per level but you get +1 to skill (basically). Epic skill focus grants +10 too. And there is at least one item granting +30 to the parry (gloves). High level bard song +15 for several minutes. It is very very easy to get over 90 rank in parry as dexterity based character.
While parry isn't as usefull when fighting multiple enemies, if parry got fixed I can see already a build which would be invincible 1vs1. AC 80+, Epic Dodge, 90+ Parry. Ultimate AC Tank.
What's the point in investing so heavily into Parry in such a case, all that gear, likely feats and numerous skill points to obtain such that could have been invested in other things (possibly even Great Dex feats/Self Concealment). By the point you've got 80 AC an AB of 60 requires a natural roll of 20 to hit you on any of their attacks and you have epic dodge to negate the first hit of each round (quite likely concealment as well). The only class that's likely to obtain AB high enough to regularly strike you without rolling 2 different twenties in a round without insanely over the top gear is likely to be Arcane Archer or someone abusing short lived buffs that running for 5-60 seconds will defeat and even then your AC and Epic dodge is likely enough you can out heal any incoming damage easy enough.
Incases where someone rolls a twenty which is blocked by epic dodge then another twenty to beat your ac (at -5, -10 or -15 AB compared to their first attack), they'll hit you even if your parry score is over 120 because parry is defeated by a natural 20.
I just don't get the point of people claiming a working parry skill would be OP, you're sacrificing offense for defense much like hunkering down with improved expertise, but you could also be giving up all your attacks per round it and it only works upto the number of attacks per round you possess so only useful in a 1v1 against something with the same number or less attacks then you. While investing heavily into AC and hunkering down with improved expertise allows for your defense to cover against far far more while letting you swing all of your attacks for the hope of rolling natural 20s vs your opponent.
I would argue that if a rogue has HiPS, why Parry? Just hide again. With Parry he can still be hit by natural 20s, which if we’re talking epic levels where it would seem broken, would be enough for some builds to kill him.
And yes bards can Parry after using defensive spells. So can a fighter/mage type build. But one of the issues with Parry at epic levels (so I thought) was how far it outstrips BAB. If he’s using curse sing he’s not adding to his Parry skill with a sing bonus.
So I guess here’s the gist of it so far, if Parry grows at the same rate as BAB (with 2 points of skill adding one point of parrying ability post level 21), would a fixed Parry be overwhelming?
My argument, and I ask that you genuinely consider it, is that it would not be. It’s use prevents rogues from sneak attacking, keeps characters like bards or multiclass builds from casting, and puts fighters in a mode that greatly reduces their damage output. And for caster types I believe it’s still at a disadvantage against full BAB opponents.
And if you’re using something like epic gloves of Parry to boost your skill, you’re burning and equipment slot which could be used for something else.
It would still be useful defensively in a one on one melee fight, but that’s about it.
Also, my comments about HiPS and overwhelming critical weren’t meant to belittle your concerns. I apologize if they came off that way. The thrust of that argument is more along the lines of D&D, especially at epic levels, it pretty broken when it comes to player vs player balance. At least through 3.5, I’ve never played 4th or 5th. So when I think of the Parry skill it is in terms of a player or group of players adventuring as opposed to dueling.
But if you do think it is overwhelmingly powerful, what conditions would you place on it to balance it out?
My suggestion would be rooting the character like a Blade’s defensive spin in the IE games, or maybe reducing the damage of a riposte... but I’m not 109% sure it would need to be nerfed when measure against other epic level abilities and tactics.
You mentioned how it basically doubles BAB after lever 21. That’s a good point. I think the solution to that is by having two point of Parry skill add a single point to a character’s Parry ability would help balance that.
Creating a new mechanics designed specifically to balance single skill is not way to go.
You mentioned how it basically doubles BAB after lever 21. That’s a good point. I think the solution to that is by having two point of Parry skill add a single point to a character’s Parry ability would help balance that.
Creating a new mechanics designed specifically to balance single skill is not way to go.
How difficult would that be? Just make a BPB (basic Parry bonus) equal to Parry skill up to 24 (since can you start with four points in a skill) then make two Parry skill points add one point to BPB after. It’s an under the hood work around that tracks with BAB.
What's the point in investing so heavily into Parry in such a case, all that gear, likely feats and numerous skill points to obtain such that could have been invested in other things (possibly even Great Dex feats/Self Concealment). By the point you've got 80 AC an AB of 60 requires a natural roll of 20 to hit you on any of their attacks and you have epic dodge to negate the first hit of each round (quite likely concealment as well). The only class that's likely to obtain AB high enough to regularly strike you without rolling 2 different twenties in a round without insanely over the top gear is likely to be Arcane Archer or someone abusing short lived buffs that running for 5-60 seconds will defeat and even then your AC and Epic dodge is likely enough you can out heal any incoming damage easy enough.
Incases where someone rolls a twenty which is blocked by epic dodge then another twenty to beat your ac (at -5, -10 or -15 AB compared to their first attack), they'll hit you even if your parry score is over 120 because parry is defeated by a natural 20.
I just don't get the point of people claiming a working parry skill would be OP, you're sacrificing offense for defense much like hunkering down with improved expertise, but you could also be giving up all your attacks per round it and it only works upto the number of attacks per round you possess so only useful in a 1v1 against something with the same number or less attacks then you. While investing heavily into AC and hunkering down with improved expertise allows for your defense to cover against far far more while letting you swing all of your attacks for the hope of rolling natural 20s vs your opponent.
1. If you bothered to push parry that far (which is not a given) you only lose 1 Epic Feat slot to Epic Skill Focus. Hardly a deal breaker on anything else you want. 2. How much does 80AC come down if you're caught flat-footed? In any case you can easily get melee AB to the 70s and it won't be from < 60 sec buffs. 80AC is very good, but not unhittable. Plus with Haste you will have at least 2 attacks at the maximum AB (Flurry and/or TWF can increase that). 3. If you have Epic Dodge then in your example the first natural 20 will be nullified for a Parrier too. 4. Basically you don't really have to sacrifice that much to get a high parry score - you don't need multiple parry items to defeat AB, because you start out with a significant natural advantage in 3 out of 4 areas: base skill vs AB, Feat bonuses and cap limits. Only on stat bonus are you equal.
1. If you bothered to push parry that far (which is not a given) you only lose 1 Epic Feat slot to Epic Skill Focus. Hardly a deal breaker on anything else you want. 2. How much does 80AC come down if you're caught flat-footed? In any case you can easily get melee AB to the 70s and it won't be from < 60 sec buffs. 80AC is very good, but not unhittable. Plus with Haste you will have at least 2 attacks at the maximum AB (Flurry and/or TWF can increase that). 3. If you have Epic Dodge then in your example the first natural 20 will be nullified for a Parrier too. 4. Basically you don't really have to sacrifice that much to get a high parry score - you don't need multiple parry items to defeat AB, because you start out with a significant natural advantage in 3 out of 4 areas: base skill vs AB, Feat bonuses and cap limits. Only on stat bonus are you equal.
1: An epic feat, two preepic feats and making room for any gear options taken up for parry items is significant to me. Particularly as those feats and items could grant extra hp, dexterity or saving throws and covering up likely far greater weakness' the character had.
2: How much is lost when flat-footed? I'm unsure, I don't know the build, I was questioning the point of investing so heavily for something that isn't going to give much value for all that investment, but as he mentioned epic dodge that implies he needed either shadow dancer or rogue for defensive roll to meet the requirements, so only the dodge AC from items worn (boots) and tumble would be lost plus dodge AC from spell buffs. (mage armour/haste). How are you managing AB in the 70's as being easy to obtain?
30 from max BAB, 4 from weapon focus/prowess,+5 weapon, +15 seems a fairly hefty ability score mod, +7 from 28 WM bonus only leaves you at 61. You might get 2 more from aid/bless short term items, maybe another two at most from an ability increase. Sure it might be easy to get 70 + ab if equipment available exceeded +5, but in such a case an 80 AC is already questionable, what did they do allow +20 weapons and only +5 armours.
3: My point is if you have an AC high enough for your opponent to need to rely on natural 20's, there is no point using Parry, if you have epic dodge as well, even if they would have had an AB high enough to hit you on their first attack per round you can always out heal it with bandages/potions easily.
4: I disagree, that much skill investment could have gone to anything else, hide/ms for example? maybe spellcraft to assist with saving throws vs spells? spot and listen? heal skill to assist in out healing spell damage? search or disable traps, hell even set traps to get abit of added offensive capability.
I disagree that it would be overpowered if this skill worked as intended, it would simply be usable, somewhat strong in very very select use cases, but stopped effortlessly by just not attacking the person with Parry mode enabled as they don't get riposte attacks against you if you aren't swinging at them and failing to beat their parry. At it's very best it's an easy to raise form of AC is lowered by wearing heavy armour and shields (because armour check penalties effect it) and limited in how many attacks it can protect against.
It also has the same flaw high AC has, if you don't have high saving throws to back it up, finger of death/Flesh to Stone/implosion defeats it. If you do have high saving throws to back it up, Icestorm, Bigbies and Horrid wilting will still not care about it.
This isn't as much PvP problem as PvE tho. I can see how can Parry allow to beat bossess designed for party solo...
Although I wouldn't be suprised if some players found ways how to abuse Parry in way it wasn't meant to in PvP. I am not familiar with the exact rules so I cannot predict this correctly, but if parry works like expertise, it might be abused (de)activating it in middle of attack round after some major action was already done...
This isn't as much PvP problem as PvE tho. I can see how can Parry allow to beat bossess designed for party solo...
Although I wouldn't be suprised if some players found ways how to abuse Parry in way it wasn't meant to in PvP. I am not familiar with the exact rules so I cannot predict this correctly, but if parry works like expertise, it might be abused (de)activating it in middle of attack round after some major action was already done...
Maybe I’m wrong because I hardly use Parry- despite the fact that I’m talking about it so much, but I find bantering about ways to fix things interesting- but IIRC you can’t cast or do any other type of attack with Parry mode activated. I think it’s harder to abuse than expertise.
Comments
Some people may argue that D&D 3.0 has its own set of broken rules (most of which were fixed in 3.5 and there was another set of fixes in pathfinder), but most of those broken rules become a real problem only in multiplayer (PW or LAN party), that is one of the reasons I wish for unharcoding as much of the ruleset as possible, so i.e. if some GM deems that players are abusing multiclassing rules, they could reduce the number of base classes one character can have to less than three (or if another one thinks the opposite, increase it).
As I have said, homebrewing should be performed by end-users (unharcoding the ruleset is a means to that end), BD will have their hands full implementing new features into NWN that were left out due to time constraints (or that simply were not feasible back then, i.e. the original NWN release hoped for 256 mb of ram, there was a real limit of how big a PW could be, if BD implements 64 bits, then we are talking about more than two gigabytes in size.)
P.S. So yeah, if an user creates a hak or script to create a skill called "parry" that replicates the functionality of said Bioware homebrew, by all means, that would be wonderful, anyone that misses it could apply it and use it in their game.
The main problem with parry being broken is because of combat flurries but that's the bottleneck to most combat modding issues too. They already talked about combat in general in one of the first streams so why not just wait until that's dealt with.
It's not adding or detracting anything.
Fixing the three flurries is going to have all sorts of side effects, e.g. when you make an attack from stealth the first flurry is from hiding and gets the benefit of the opponent being flat footed. I believe that in PnP if you catch the opponent flat-footed then he's flat-footed the whole round, but then NWN HiPS is rather better than the PnP version. And then there's Uncanny Dodge, which is widely recognised as being overpowered for such a low level feat, and which would now become even more valuable. Plus we don't have Feint in the game.
"Fixing" gameplay things is never simple.
Uncanny dodge itself is not quite accurate either. In 3.5 there are two types, one improved, the first only retains dex bonus to AC if caught flat footed, doesn't prevent flat footed, but the second prevents flanked if the rogue doesn't have 4 or higher sneak attack granting class levels than you. NWN2 attempted to do this but ended up breaking the whole thing in the process.
HiPS can be tricky because it requires location situational scripting for accuracy. As a Su it wont function in an anti-magic field, both for shadow dancer and the 3.5 assassin version. Only the Ranger's HiPS is an Ex but it requires natural terrain only. All versions also require to be within 10ft of shadows which I think is roughly a third of a tile area.
All that is just about rules implementations that aren't very well fleshed out by default however.
Some fun things are that items can't have dodge bonuses, and the skills Set Trap, Lore, and Taunt also don't exist either, so not just Parry and Discipline.
I agree making features rules accurate should be left up to the modding community because it can be really particular and drastically alter the game experience from hack'n'slash to an extreme survival game.
This way, yes if you’ve got an epic party skill you can go toe to toe with people in melee with great success (IIRC critical hits ignore Parry so, you’re epic rouge with Parry still won’t want to stand against a weapon master) but, if you just stand around in Parry mode you can be picked apart by spells or ranged weapons.
Maybe also add a condition where Parry does not work against flanking attacks.
So yes, it will be very powerful but only situationally.
Critical hits don't ignore parry, but parry is very similar to AC in that a natural 20 will automatically hit and threaten a crit (though double 20's doesn't automatically make a critical hit as the AC or Parry skill might be higher then 20 points above your unmodified AB).
Honestly, high AC will always be greater then high parry, just because in either cases a 20 will get past such but in the case of a high AC you're at least attacking back with every single attack you have per round and it applies to every opponent regardless of number of attacks coming in.
A "fixed" parry has no place in the game as it's just too powerful. PWs would end up banning it, just like the homebrewed Devastating Critical, once they figure it out.
That however means that the parry shouldn't be touch at. Fixing it could cause serious balance issues. The only option here is to somehow let us customize it. Which will be very hard as the parry code is shattered into so many places...
It seems like the issue is extremely high levels where Parry outpoints BAB but...
As a rogue type, HiPS seems to give way more advantage than Parry. It’s ultimately defensive and allows for sneak attacks. With Parry you can still get hit by natural 20s and lose the benefit of sneak attacks.
As a fighter type, sitting in Parry mode is a massive drop in DPS. Again, maybe I’m wrong but I’ve always felt when playing a high level fighter (or variation thereof) my most effective strategy is usually to go in and lay the smack down on something, not wait for it to attack me.
If you’re fighting multiple opponents who have roughly the same number of attacks per round that you do, then I think there’s a point where it becomes more of a burden than a boon.
Working as intended it can be pretty useful if you’re fighting one on one with someone of equal or lesser level, and not great outside of that.
While parry isn't as usefull when fighting multiple enemies, if parry got fixed I can see already a build which would be invincible 1vs1. AC 80+, Epic Dodge, 90+ Parry. Ultimate AC Tank.
Then what if, starting at level 21, every point added to the Parry skill only raised the success of Parry by half a point, so it stayed in line with BAB?
I’d still argue that HiPS and devestating critical are more powerful in that same 1 on 1 situation plus a whole bunch more.
And I’d argue that those issues are really prevalent in terms of PVP which has never been a strength with D&D.
Plus, if it’s fixed and PWs don’t like it, they can remove or nerf it the same way they did with devastating critical.
Full on removing it doesn’t seem to be an option.
I also don’t see it as being a terrible thing to have in this game which is more combat heavy than a pen and paper D&D session.
Earlier in the thread Trent wrote something along the lines of allowing modders to have some control of it, which I think sort of falls along the lines of what we’re discussing the PW balance.
In the mean time, I’m trying to contribute to a possible fix, maybe some default setting that is useful but not overpowered. I fully admit I don’t know what that is, that’s what the discussion is for.
You mentioned how it basically doubles BAB after lever 21. That’s a good point. I think the solution to that is by having two point of Parry skill add a single point to a character’s Parry ability would help balance that.
So I guess the question is, with that change, how overpowered would it be?
Here’s my thoughts on that, which again I freely admit could be wrong. One way to tell if something is generally overpowered when most characters are built around it, or it is included to the exclusion of other abilities.
If I have a tank would I go to Parry mode every fight, or most fights, because it is tactically superior to other ways of playing my character? I would argue no, it is situational at best. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Same could be said for a rogue or bard, both of which I see having more use for Parry if they get into a situation where they need to survive in melee. For rogues, personally I would ignore Parry for HiPS, all Parry does is alllow me to survive awhile longer during a 1 on 1 melee encounter, and not that much longer if I’m fighting a full BAB opponent who will generally have more attacks than me. It also takes my sneak attack off the table.
Same is true for a bard minus the sneak attack. Using a song to boost my skill would be very useful... I think using curse song in combination with more offensive tactics would be a more common and useful tactic.
So I guess my point is, a fixed Parry can be a defensive tool that can be useful in limited situations but not overwhelmingly so.
The Bard might add Parry on top of a high AC and Mirror Image to make himself virtually impossible to hit, meanwhile he gains some riposte attacks plus damage from curse song (say).
These are just thoughts off the top of my head - if parry is "fixed" then the creative minds of the whole player-base will find numerous ways if taking advantage.
What's the point in investing so heavily into Parry in such a case, all that gear, likely feats and numerous skill points to obtain such that could have been invested in other things (possibly even Great Dex feats/Self Concealment). By the point you've got 80 AC an AB of 60 requires a natural roll of 20 to hit you on any of their attacks and you have epic dodge to negate the first hit of each round (quite likely concealment as well). The only class that's likely to obtain AB high enough to regularly strike you without rolling 2 different twenties in a round without insanely over the top gear is likely to be Arcane Archer or someone abusing short lived buffs that running for 5-60 seconds will defeat and even then your AC and Epic dodge is likely enough you can out heal any incoming damage easy enough.
Incases where someone rolls a twenty which is blocked by epic dodge then another twenty to beat your ac (at -5, -10 or -15 AB compared to their first attack), they'll hit you even if your parry score is over 120 because parry is defeated by a natural 20.
I just don't get the point of people claiming a working parry skill would be OP, you're sacrificing offense for defense much like hunkering down with improved expertise, but you could also be giving up all your attacks per round it and it only works upto the number of attacks per round you possess so only useful in a 1v1 against something with the same number or less attacks then you. While investing heavily into AC and hunkering down with improved expertise allows for your defense to cover against far far more while letting you swing all of your attacks for the hope of rolling natural 20s vs your opponent.
And yes bards can Parry after using defensive spells. So can a fighter/mage type build. But one of the issues with Parry at epic levels (so I thought) was how far it outstrips BAB. If he’s using curse sing he’s not adding to his Parry skill with a sing bonus.
So I guess here’s the gist of it so far, if Parry grows at the same rate as BAB (with 2 points of skill adding one point of parrying ability post level 21), would a fixed Parry be overwhelming?
My argument, and I ask that you genuinely consider it, is that it would not be. It’s use prevents rogues from sneak attacking, keeps characters like bards or multiclass builds from casting, and puts fighters in a mode that greatly reduces their damage output. And for caster types I believe it’s still at a disadvantage against full BAB opponents.
And if you’re using something like epic gloves of Parry to boost your skill, you’re burning and equipment slot which could be used for something else.
It would still be useful defensively in a one on one melee fight, but that’s about it.
Also, my comments about HiPS and overwhelming critical weren’t meant to belittle your concerns. I apologize if they came off that way. The thrust of that argument is more along the lines of D&D, especially at epic levels, it pretty broken when it comes to player vs player balance. At least through 3.5, I’ve never played 4th or 5th. So when I think of the Parry skill it is in terms of a player or group of players adventuring as opposed to dueling.
But if you do think it is overwhelmingly powerful, what conditions would you place on it to balance it out?
My suggestion would be rooting the character like a Blade’s defensive spin in the IE games, or maybe reducing the damage of a riposte... but I’m not 109% sure it would need to be nerfed when measure against other epic level abilities and tactics.
2. How much does 80AC come down if you're caught flat-footed? In any case you can easily get melee AB to the 70s and it won't be from < 60 sec buffs. 80AC is very good, but not unhittable. Plus with Haste you will have at least 2 attacks at the maximum AB (Flurry and/or TWF can increase that).
3. If you have Epic Dodge then in your example the first natural 20 will be nullified for a Parrier too.
4. Basically you don't really have to sacrifice that much to get a high parry score - you don't need multiple parry items to defeat AB, because you start out with a significant natural advantage in 3 out of 4 areas: base skill vs AB, Feat bonuses and cap limits. Only on stat bonus are you equal.
1: An epic feat, two preepic feats and making room for any gear options taken up for parry items is significant to me. Particularly as those feats and items could grant extra hp, dexterity or saving throws and covering up likely far greater weakness' the character had.
2: How much is lost when flat-footed? I'm unsure, I don't know the build, I was questioning the point of investing so heavily for something that isn't going to give much value for all that investment, but as he mentioned epic dodge that implies he needed either shadow dancer or rogue for defensive roll to meet the requirements, so only the dodge AC from items worn (boots) and tumble would be lost plus dodge AC from spell buffs. (mage armour/haste). How are you managing AB in the 70's as being easy to obtain?
30 from max BAB, 4 from weapon focus/prowess,+5 weapon, +15 seems a fairly hefty ability score mod, +7 from 28 WM bonus only leaves you at 61. You might get 2 more from aid/bless short term items, maybe another two at most from an ability increase. Sure it might be easy to get 70 + ab if equipment available exceeded +5, but in such a case an 80 AC is already questionable, what did they do allow +20 weapons and only +5 armours.
3: My point is if you have an AC high enough for your opponent to need to rely on natural 20's, there is no point using Parry, if you have epic dodge as well, even if they would have had an AB high enough to hit you on their first attack per round you can always out heal it with bandages/potions easily.
4: I disagree, that much skill investment could have gone to anything else, hide/ms for example? maybe spellcraft to assist with saving throws vs spells? spot and listen? heal skill to assist in out healing spell damage? search or disable traps, hell even set traps to get abit of added offensive capability.
I disagree that it would be overpowered if this skill worked as intended, it would simply be usable, somewhat strong in very very select use cases, but stopped effortlessly by just not attacking the person with Parry mode enabled as they don't get riposte attacks against you if you aren't swinging at them and failing to beat their parry. At it's very best it's an easy to raise form of AC is lowered by wearing heavy armour and shields (because armour check penalties effect it) and limited in how many attacks it can protect against.
It also has the same flaw high AC has, if you don't have high saving throws to back it up, finger of death/Flesh to Stone/implosion defeats it. If you do have high saving throws to back it up, Icestorm, Bigbies and Horrid wilting will still not care about it.
Although I wouldn't be suprised if some players found ways how to abuse Parry in way it wasn't meant to in PvP. I am not familiar with the exact rules so I cannot predict this correctly, but if parry works like expertise, it might be abused (de)activating it in middle of attack round after some major action was already done...