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The Fix parry card discussion

JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 17,257
Greatings, NWN:EE enthusiasts!

Please, provide more details and feedback for

https://trello.com/c/2GVx5LBz/30-fix-parry

in this thread.

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Comments

  • MordaedilMordaedil Member Posts: 56

    Suggestion: Remove the Parry skill. Implement Fight Defensively and Total Defense modes. Add the feat Fencing for a defensive finesse specific fighting style: https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Fencing_(3.5e_Feat)

    Yo, that feat is Homebrew. I don't recommend using dnd-wiki for 3.5 reference stuff, unless you want Dragonball Z races and the like.

    I feel like Parry, if necessary to be kept, needs to be more workable as a defensive move. If you are surrounded right now, it doesn't do anything. And even if I max out parry, use special parry boosting items and fight a monk my level, while dualwielding, I'll still only fight them to a standstill. It's not very useful in any given circumstance in my experience.

    tfoxFlashburnProontNostariel
  • 1varangian1varangian Member Posts: 243
    Parry and Discipline are Homebrew as well. I don't really understand why they were created in the first place. Needing Discipline to resist knockdowns is especially unfair for Rogues.

    I just looked up the Fencing feat for a replacement option for those who would enjoy a defensive mode like Parry. Can easily leave that out too. But a defensive mode should be a feat rather than a skill. Skills are essentially non-combat skills and are mechanically different with ranks rather than using AB.

    ThorssonildaronBelgarathMTHNostariel
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,028
    I also think Parry should be either fixed (per @Flashburn 's description above) or removed entirely. I doubt it'll actually get removed, for a number of reasons, so I'd like to see it fixed.

    I would also like to see some feat unhardcoding, so that modders can adjust Knockdown and the like to work without the Discipline skill, which I also think should not exist, but which will undoubtedly also remain in the game.

  • sandronejmsandronejm Member Posts: 45
    edited December 2017
    1. I like parry
    2. I agree with Shadooow: it is favorable only in the lower levels.
    3. They will not remove Parry, the game will keep the original game.
    4. Yes I beliave the parry can be better, modified to be more useful

    My suggestion: give a Script to the builders modify the parry on the toolset :)

    Post edited by sandronejm on
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 310
    It would be better to remove it, seriously.

    If fixed, it could easily become too powerfull ability. It will be very hard to balance it out. Right now, of course it is almost useless ability and the only time where this skill is useable will be at lower levels.

    ThorssonildaronRAM021Nostariel
  • hda_nwnhda_nwn Member Posts: 27
    Parry should work as intended. You are standing still deflecting attacks, its a combat mode that doesn't allow to do anything else.

    Unlike expertise (and improved expertise) where you can still do other actions. Like using potions or scrolls. Use active combat feats and I can't remember, may be cast even spells.

    For balancing issues its just a matter of PW configuration.

    RifleLeroyProontNostariel
  • RifleLeroyRifleLeroy Member Posts: 47
    edited December 2017

    I would propose the easiest fix for Parry, and Discipline - remove them. And use the actual 3e rules for these functions.

    Suggestion: Remove the Discipline skill and implement 3e rules for resisting Knockdown and Disarm conditions.

    Please no.
    Fix parry instead.


    Parry and Discipline are Homebrew as well. I don't really understand why they were created in the first place. Needing Discipline to resist knockdowns is especially unfair for Rogues.

    Nobody,at least in pvp-pve module,use pure rogue build.
    Just add some lvl's of warrior/ranger/bard/paladin/bg etc etc and you will get discipline.
    Please avoid creating non-existent problems.

  • 1varangian1varangian Member Posts: 243
    Shadooow said:

    It would be better to remove it, seriously.

    If fixed, it could easily become too powerfull ability. It will be very hard to balance it out. Right now, of course it is almost useless ability and the only time where this skill is useable will be at lower levels.

    I agree with this. A skill by definition shouldn't even be used in combat. Combat balance is based on BAB and feats. It's a basic design principle in 3e. Skills are essentially non-combat skills.

    A skill like Parry can have multiple bonuses from various sources (stats, items, skill focus) and then the skill rank is compared to an attackers BAB, ignoring the Parrying character's BAB completely. The design of it is just completely bonkers. Sorry Trent or whoever came up with it. =)

    I can live without seeing the Parry boom after a "fix" makes dedicated Parrying mechanically superior to normal 3e combating.

    ThorssonNostariel
  • ThorssonThorsson Member Posts: 187
    hda_nwn said:

    Parry should work as intended.

    It is. I raised this years ago and was told that the developers knew it wasn't as per the description but that if it was then it would be way too powerful. It's why it wasn't "fixed" in NWN2 (not just Obsidian being lazy).

    Proont
  • TheCapuletTheCapulet Member Posts: 17



    Pure Rogues, or Clerics / Druids / whoever doesn't get Discipline, might exist on a RP server, and they will be knocked down and disarmed and killed unfairly. And everyone else loses one skill point per level to a skill that shouldn't exist in the first place.

    That doesn't sound unfairly to me at all. It sounds like a flawed character for the sake of roleplay. If you build a pure rouge, you should expect to get knocked down by fighters.

    You can't be different and just the same, at the same time.

    Nicoen
  • RifleLeroyRifleLeroy Member Posts: 47
    Jarrakul said:

    Nobody,at least in pvp-pve module,use pure rogue build.
    Just add some lvl's of warrior/ranger/bard/paladin/bg etc etc and you will get discipline.
    Please avoid creating non-existent problems.

    Not that I think Discipline is likely to be removed, but "nobody plays rogues" is not a good argument against the idea that rogues are being unfairly disadvantaged in some way. In fact, it's a rather good argument that they are being unfairly disadvantaged in some way.
    Except i didn't say "nobody play rogue" but "nobody play PURE rogue" So,learn to quote.


    Parry and Discipline are Homebrew as well. I don't really understand why they were created in the first place. Needing Discipline to resist knockdowns is especially unfair for Rogues.

    Nobody,at least in pvp-pve module,use pure rogue build.
    Just add some lvl's of warrior/ranger/bard/paladin/bg etc etc and you will get discipline.
    Please avoid creating non-existent problems.


    You just confirmed the issue. "No one uses pure Rogue". Because the system doesn't work it's not even an option.

    No, No, I haven't confirmed anything.
    It depends by server.
    There are higly custom module that reward players who use pure build.

    If you are a module builder just add some code in OnPlayerLevelUp to reward players who use pure rogue: e.g. +1 on discipline every 2lvl (It's exaggerated for me ... but consider your complaints, it should be fine),or create a new item, mark as useable only by rogue and add some point to disci.

    The system work very welll...but in good hands.

  • 1varangian1varangian Member Posts: 243
    The unfair point has less to do with class concept or design and more to do with the fact that non-martial classes have been nerfed with NWN's homebrew rules that involve a bugged / overpowered skill.

    So would removing Parry corrupt PC's that have ranks in it? Is this a large scale problem? Since it's always been "bugged" is it even used?

    What consequences would removing a skill or two actually have?

  • RifkinRifkin Member Posts: 110
    Backwards compatibility. Older mods may have used Parry for something else. You can't remove things from the game for this reason.

    FardragonProontOzzynl
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,473
    edited December 2017
    Agreed. Modules may use Parry checks (and even more probable, Discipline checks) in dialogue. So, whatever the merits of those skills, removing them at this point is out of the question.

    1. [Parry] I'm not left handed either!
    2. [Discipline] My name is [CHARNAME]. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

    JarrakulProont
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,028
    Much as I dislike both Parry and Discipline as skills, I agree with @Fardragon . Which is why I'd like to see some of this stuff unhardcoded, so that modders and module builders can create alternate functionality without NWNEE breaking the game for those who don't want to implement, or simply haven't implemented, said alternate functionality.

    Nostariel
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,473
    It would be nice if it actually parried as many attacks as it should as well - perhaps with limitations for balance, say one attack + 1 for each 5 skill points invested, or -5 per attack parried after the first.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,028
    I think the biggest complaint is that it will only ever parry the first attack per "flurry", regardless of how many attacks it can block per round. Fix that, or at least provide an option to fix that, and I think most of us would be more-or-less happy.

    FlashburnProont
  • ThorssonThorsson Member Posts: 187
    If it parries as many attacks as the description it's way too powerful. I suspect that if it blocked 3 attacks in the first flurry it would be too powerful. I would become a must have skill, trumping even Tumble for melee builds.

    Frankly I doubt it can be balanced without changing how it works substantially. As pointed out earlier it's a skill roll vs BAB, which is inherently weighted in the favour of the parrier. The limitations in number of attacks is the only thing that stops it being mega.

    ProontNicoen
  • DragontraDragontra Member Posts: 14
    In my opinion I think the best all round solution would be as follows:

    Step 1: Correct the in-game description of the parry skill so it reflects what the skill currently does, (so new players aren’t being effectively lied to.) This should preserve the original NWN experience as well as keeping anyone worried about parry becoming overpowered happy. The challenge of this will be trying to describe how it currently works without having to explain the entire concept of flurries to potential fledgling players.

    Step 2: Add a new checkbox to game options to “allow characters to parry attacks per round equal to their number of attacks.” Along with an equivalent setting for dedicated servers. This way we can used the fixed skill in the original campaigns should we wish.

    Step 3: Expose some amount of the “hardcodedness” in script form so persistent-worlds/custom-modules can balance and tweak the parry skill to their hearts content.

    Honestly though I’d be happy with just step 3. I imagine simultaneously having something be controlled by a game option and exposed to a script is probably a faff.

    RifleLeroyBelgarathMTH
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 663
    I agree make it open and let modules decides how it works or if it exists at all.

    In terms of hard coded restrictions on parry I think NWN2 had the right idea with some of their 2da expansions like with skills.2da there is a column to soft remove any skill. There is also a column for a mode ID to toggle that mode on and off with a combatmodes.2da and a 1/0 on and off option called IsActiveSkill. It would be useful to do something like that with a mapping back to feats.2da or something to open up skill behavior more easily.

    Some might prefer a defensive stance boost like in the rules but some might just want it to work with all attacks.

  • RifleLeroyRifleLeroy Member Posts: 47
    edited December 2017
    EDIT
    double post.

    Post edited by RifleLeroy on
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This discussion has been closed.