That sounds like it might work, Takhisis, or at least some variant on it. But it's lots of work. First you have to 'fix' parry, then put in a new limiting restriction on parry numbers and then put another on ripostes. And, frankly, with those restrictions, all the people calling for the fix wouldn't want it.
Meanwhile let me point out a few other things. I haven't suggested removing parry. After careful consideration (as someone who has been in this thread from the start and read all the posts, so doesn't jump to incorrect conclusions about someone) I think it should be left exactly as it is, with an amended description, unless a solution is found that makes it workable, but not overpowered and doesn't take much time to implement.
I don't accept that BD should spend precious time to introduce an overpowered ability that will then have to be disabled by PWs or module makers (or not). What is the point? Perhaps they should create some other overpowered abilities that can then also be disabled. The argument is specious.
People calling for it clearly want to use it. So, I challenge them to go back and read the arguments about why it's overpowered. The numbers don't lie.
That sounds like it might work, Takhisis, or at least some variant on it. But it's lots of work. First you have to 'fix' parry, then put in a new limiting restriction on parry numbers and then put another on ripostes. And, frankly, with those restrictions, all the people calling for the fix wouldn't want it.
Meanwhile let me point out a few other things. I haven't suggested removing parry. After careful consideration (as someone who has been in this thread from the start and read all the posts, so doesn't jump to incorrect conclusions about someone) I think it should be left exactly as it is, with an amended description, unless a solution is found that makes it workable, but not overpowered and doesn't take much time to implement.
I don't accept that BD should spend precious time to introduce an overpowered ability that will then have to be disabled by PWs or module makers (or not). What is the point? Perhaps they should create some other overpowered abilities that can then also be disabled. The argument is specious.
People calling for it clearly want to use it. So, I challenge them to go back and read the arguments about why it's overpowered. The numbers don't lie.
There are plenty of ways to implement parry without it being overpowered. I suggested one already much earlier in this thread. The idea of parry fatigue when parrying per round, would level the playing field for other combatants but still allow parry to have some use. Of course, you will bring up incredibly broken/power gamed builds, but this is something that NWN is ripe with. There are plenty of ridiculous builds, I can point out the cleric/bard/pale master build with epic damage reduction, the thing is unkillable in PVP, and can insta-gib anyone whom does not have the proper protections. There are arcane archer builds with insane ab and ac, and if the server does not ban or have rules against run-n-gunning, then you are essentially also unstoppable.
When it comes down to it, there will always been some variation of something that will be broken in DND, and especially in NWN. Servers already try to play some kind of balancing act, but I have yet to see any that did not end up creating an imbalance in their attempts to create a level playing field.
I don't think we should be afraid of Parry becoming useful, what I don't want to see is broken features of the game being left broken because some people would prefer that they didn't exist at all. We cannot remove parry without destroying backwards compatibility, so the options are:
leave it as is, or fix it.
Of the two options, I can't fathom why anyone would choose to leave it broken.
Fix parry, make it reasonable, there is no reason to fear 'OP' builds, if power gaming and min-maxing was something that turned you off this game, you would have left long ago.
Honestly, it never even occured to me that parry could be somewhat powerful or even overpowered. The few characters I build around it were frail little bards and rogues who'd otherwise never stand a chance vs. any fighter or build with a higher BAB. Most of the time the opponents crits came in much sooner than any riposte anyway. I'm not sure where exactly the potential for overpowered characters is, but I can only guess it's again a thing for epic level PvP arenas and such, which I have no experience with - but it seems to me that high level/epic servers generally run into a lot of balancing issues anyway because first the rules have never been made for a balanced PvP experience anyway, and everything seems to fall apart at the epic levels anyway. In those scenarios I guess Parry would be one of many feats marked for removal, next is the HiPS/True Seeing issue, then comes... etc, etc. All my experience comes from RP/Coop scenarios where these balance issues aren't such a big deal, but flavor, unusual builds and variety matter more, and I would argue that this was the original focus of the game and ruleset. So I would agree with the post above that suggest editing the feat out in 2da for high level PvP scenarios, it's not nearly such a big deal for a module builder than breaking compatibility or taking the fun out for everyone else would be.
Or maybe let parry as it is. Not a perfect defense because it is very flawed against flurries or multiple foes (as you cant control which strike will you parry) and enhance the riposte attack to make it something good.
It is suppossed to be a counter attack once you put the enemy weapon out of balance and you get adavantage in your strike. As your martial prowess and style is superior than your rivals attemps.
Set the riposte attack with a nice effect like remove dodge and shield AC. or Higher chance of critical hit. Or something like that.
Now riposte is only a melee attack.
I like the concept of parry skill as a fighter who knows techniques rather than sweeping his weapon left and right.
The argue of high stacking skill bonus into parry skill is a module balancing issue. take in account that AC begins with 10. And parry is d20. and if you want to attack with it you must overcome by ten the attack roll.
Switching to parry /non parry also is dangerous as it is not so smooth once you are in combat. Neither you can use active combat skills nor items as it cancels the stance.
And of course if the enemy runs away you chase him with no attack. If the enemy ignore you. You are wasting time. Parry is dumb as fuck as you stand still facing a target not attacking them and just waiting te blows to come. And doing nothing else.
Being open target to distance attacks and spellcasting. Even if parry is fixed. How can this shit be OP? How can you even compare with HiPS who can be spammed to death or with improved expertise while you can attack, Use Magic Device, drink potions, even spellcasting?
And again if you face a parry bonus of 101 vs Attack roll of 50. Thats not parry being broken. its bad dessign of module. or a great dessign if they dont give a F*** about balancing PvP. The same skill bonus could be achieved in discipline or hide/move silently or spot/listen.
And if you waste 3 feats(one being epic) for improving your parry that literally outshines by 13 the bonus can be achieved in boosting attacks with feats. You are focusing so heavily in a fancy stance that leaves you freaking standing still in front of a target who can ignore you. Run away or just switch to ranged weapon in front of your face and atrack you.
No. Parry is not OP. Is dumb. But fancy. And I like it and want to see it being treated like a viable option.
How can high parry skill be a module design issue when there are multiple items granting bonuses to parry in the base game and base treasure script generation, and when one of them grants +30!!!
Even without bonuses from items, you can get over 90 easily! 43base 13 from feats up to 17 or even more from dexterity if maxed (normally you max either str or dex so this is not some weird build tailored to max parry) up to 19 from bard song that lasts 10 minutes with lasting inspiration +1 from prayer up to 2 minutes +4 from improved parry
great. you are standing still with an amazing parry bonus.
by the way. Builders can make standard items not included in their loot system.
As for the character you mention. Same goes with hide/move silently. Or any other skill you maximize and spend epic skill proficiency.
Parry needs to be fixed. Then leave it open to modify it module side by nwscript so we can tailor it to our likes. Be OP/Nerfed/Balanced or just disabled.
No need to argue if the option is given to customize it.
As for the character you mention. Same goes with hide/move silently. Or any other skill you maximize and spend epic skill proficiency.
yes but unlike parry, if you want to max hiding skills you need spend twice as many feats, points because just max hide is not enough as you will be seen through listen and vice versa
plus the enemy can have 90 spot/listen as easily as you can have 90 hide+ms
plus true seeing negates hide/ms and hips completely
I think I said it before in this thread but again. Parry can never be balanced as the whole concept is faulty from beginning. The core issue is the attack bonus versus skill+d20. Skills are too easy to acquire/max and starting epic levels, skills progress twice as faster than attack bonus. Note, same goes for discipline, but that doesn't make you (almost) completely immune to melee attacks at least - only to knockdown and disarm.
BTW, critical strike is mentioned here a lot. I actually don't know how it works because parry is so useless right now, but I assume that what would be critical strike against your AC won't be a hit unless that was natural 20 if the attack roll didn't exceed parry skill+d20. Correct me if I am wrong.
Ok, so let's say a lvl40 melee character has 90 effective points in Parry. Let's assume they're in combat with another lvl40 melee character.
It's fairly safe to assume 30 BAB, 18 starting strength, Great Strength/Dexterity III, Epic Combat Prowess and WF + EWF.
More module-dependant factors would be ability boosting items and magic weapons, let's assume +6 to strength from items and a +5 weapon.
All that considered, the opponent's attack bonus should be about +51. It's not a min-maxed build, but one that should be fairly accessible to almost every melee character at this point.
In such environment, Parry should be able to block every parry'able attack that's not a natural 20. That would be 3 out of 4 at minimum, but likely about 5. Additionally, each of these three parried attacks would be guaranteed to trigger a riposte, because the opponent's attack roll will be 70 at most, which is way lower than needed for a counterattack to be made.
Obviously, the more opponents the parrying character fights simultaneously, the less useful parry becomes, but in such circumstances, is there something I'm missing or is Parry pretty good even in its current state in low-magic settings?
Edit: I got it the other way and assumed it's the attack roll that needs to overcome the Parry value, while it's Parry roll that needs to overcome the DC equal to the attack roll... But it looks like it makes Parry only better, not worse (Parry + d20 against attack roll, whereas I thought it's attack roll against Parry).
@Taro94 Parry is currently reasonably effective against one melee opponent, especially if they don't have extra attacks (like from Haste, Flurry, TWF). The point is that if Parry behaved as the description, a TWF Parryer (maybe with Flurry and/or Haste) could parry lots of attacks at a 95% chance and riposte on every one. This is not difficult to achieve, as has been demonstrated several times. You don't even need to max the Parry Skill out, the edge is so great.
@hda_nwn As I've noted, taking Parry on a Dexer does not preclude you from HiPS, in fact they mesh quite nicely (I have played a parrying HiPSter). The man stands still, you Hide, turn off parry mode, move round to his back and strike, then turn parry mode back on. This takes some skill/practice, but it's not hard. In any case the AI will never stand still, so you are only talking about PvP. And we already know that far more players are SP than MP and not every MP wants to PvP (which isn't part of the core D&D experience anyway).
Parry does not protect you from Ranged Attacks or spells, but no melee is protected from these (although HiPS helps), so that's a red herring.
@Rifkin and I already pointed out that because one thing is broken, doesn't make introducing another broken thing OK. "Fixed" Parry will break every module going in balance terms, so it's quite funny when you argue against removing parry because it would break compatibility (name me the modules that actually use the skill).
Right, but Parry has always been known for being very weak at high levels, so it comes as a surprise that it is actually pretty good in 1v1, even without maxing out Parry. Truth be told, I've never really looked Into Parry much, just assumed it's horrible. Now I think that it doesn't really need modifications, because it seems quote useful, even if only situationally.
Nevertheless, removing it is not an option. You can't break compatibility by arguing that feature being non-compatible with the EE is rarely used anyway. Once again I'm offering to send anyone interested an override for hiding parry if they really with to get rid of it, but don't remove parry just for the sake of it from the base game. It's not any inherent game mechanism that you are forced to experience. I can't understand - what's so difficult about ignoring parry?
Right, but Parry has always been known for being very weak at high levels, so it comes as a surprise that it is actually pretty good in 1v1, even without maxing out Parry. Truth be told, I've never really looked Into Parry much, just assumed it's horrible. Now I think that it doesn't really need modifications, because it seems quote useful, even if only situationally.
Parry as is now is garbage at higher levels because it can only parry one attack per flurry. But if that is fixed as was the request, then it would become broken on higher levels. It would be too easy to block 99% attacks, at least in melee 1vs1 combat. And that is not just PvP issue. If parry was fixed, I am quite sure I would be able to solo multiple bosses on action PWs that weren't designed to be solo-ed. And if not solo, it would significally improved tanking abilities of the dexterity-based characters such as rogue/pm.
As I see it. Currently parry is kinda useable in pre 20 environments. Which is 99% of singleplayer modules. It is trash on high levels, but that should not really be a concern of the SP players who lobbied this request into trello anyway.
If fixed, those of us running PW would have to start trying balance parry on our own because it would become too good and too easy to use compared to anything else.
Right, but Parry has always been known for being very weak at high levels, so it comes as a surprise that it is actually pretty good in 1v1, even without maxing out Parry. Truth be told, I've never really looked Into Parry much, just assumed it's horrible. Now I think that it doesn't really need modifications, because it seems quote useful, even if only situationally.
Parry as is now is garbage at higher levels because it can only parry one attack per flurry. But if that is fixed as was the request, then it would become broken on higher levels. It would be too easy to block 99% attacks, at least in melee 1vs1 combat. And that is not just PvP issue. If parry was fixed, I am quite sure I would be able to solo multiple bosses on action PWs that weren't designed to be solo-ed. And if not solo, it would significally improved tanking abilities of the dexterity-based characters such as rogue/pm.
As I see it. Currently parry is kinda useable in pre 20 environments. Which is 99% of singleplayer modules. It is trash on high levels, but that should not really be a concern of the SP players who lobbied this request into trello anyway.
If fixed, those of us running PW would have to start trying balance parry on our own because it would become too good and too easy to use compared to anything else.
This is what I'd like explained. From what I looked at it it doesn't look like Parry is trash at higher levels at all.
In 1v1 it can rather easily parry all three (1 per flurry) attacks that Parry can currently attempt to block. This includes the full BAB attack. A build that will be guaranteed to perform a riposte at each of these blocks is also easily achievable.
So, in a scenario of two melee characters battling it out with 5 attacks per round each, if the 1st of them is in parry mode, they will lose two attacks (but the ones with the lowest BAB), but their opponent will lose three due to them being parried (and that includes their full BAB attack).
The more attacks per round the parrying character has, the less effective it becomes because he'll lose more, but on the bright side, if they have only 4 attacks per round, he'll lose only one, basically.
Of course it's a situational advantage, because parry won't work against multiple opponents, spellcasters and shooters, but in 1v1 it appears that parrying is more profitable than not parrying.
To me, that seems like far from trash, but please correct me if I'm missing something.
Parry can be balanced, as anything can be balanced, it only affects cost of power which isn't much of an intelligent operation. Even if parry is balanced it would still be a superfluous mechanic that is ignored or somehow rendered more useless by many modules and persistent worlds in an attempt to make it effectively deleted. Folks would still just prefer to replace it with the defensive action which is more properly integrated with the rest of the rules.
I still think the best solution is just to change and improve the things around parry and ignore it for the most part. Extending skills.2da with an easy to use removal column and either removing flurry combat phases or unhardcoding them in some way seems best.
Discussing the relative power of parry in various situations and modules doesn't seem like a discussion that will go anywhere or ever reach a useful conclusion.
Just leave it as a relic of the OC and move on without it.
When Parry is fixed and more and more PC's have it, I can't wait for the awesome combat scenario where two combatants face off both being in Parry mode. Then flicking the mode on and off trying to Parry and Riposte more than the other guy.
This scenario also reveals a major mechanical weakness with the implementation.
Parry should really be a FEAT that would allow Riposte attacks while in Total Defense mode, if opponent misses attack roll by more than 10.
When Parry is fixed and more and more PC's have it, I can't wait for the awesome combat scenario where two combatants face off both being in Parry mode. Then flicking the mode on and off trying to Parry and Riposte more than the other guy.
This scenario also reveals a major mechanical weakness with the implenentation.
True. One solution could be returning combat behavior to normal in case you're parrying an opponent that's also in parry mode.
Though as I explained above, it appears to me that Parry is actually in no need of fixing.
Out of the 4000 or 5000 official feats published I'm sure that there are some that accomplish the same thing thematically but not mechanically the same as parry.
I'd suggest just modifying parry the way I modified it.
When in parry mode they have +20 ab allowing them to hit and each hit they land gains the damage bonus of the critical multiplier of their weapon.
However mine was a rough approximation......
Parry in actual game code should continue being the first attack of each flurry and the amount parry is higher than their ab is the ab the parryer gains and all parry hits are automatically critical hits.
That's IT..... That alone adds a layer of depth to parry and makes it still only situational. They get at most 3 possible attacks which are likely to hit that deal critical damage at the cost of being unable to just attack when they want and needing all those skill points.
How about allowing a discipline check to beat a riposte? Like if an opponent succeeds in a discipline check it means he didn’t leave himself open for a riposte.
This way a fixed parry skill is still useful defensively- and offensively if you’re fighting a non melee oriented character- but won’t allow anyone to potentially run through full melee oriented character.
So we modify one homebrewed skill with another? I suppose there's a certain poetic justice about it. Or how about we do away with both and spend skillpoints on more interesting stuff?
So we modify one homebrewed skill with another? I suppose there's a certain poetic justice about it. Or how about we do away with both and spend skillpoints on more interesting stuff?
Actually the earlier conversation about home brewed rules kind of got me thinking about it. Since they are both NWN specific it does kind of make sense to relate them. Also, some people like the skill additions for variety.
And for people who don’t like either skill, they could just eliminate them with a 2da edit...
Providing there’s a way to add regular checks to knockdown.
So we modify one homebrewed skill with another? I suppose there's a certain poetic justice about it. Or how about we do away with both and spend skillpoints on more interesting stuff?
You can literally stop players from taking the skill just by removing it from the class list of every single class. The server will stop the level up and inform them they can't take the skill with or without override/hak on their end(although an override/hak on their end would grey out the option conveniently). Stop trying to inject your own limitations into a game which should allow as much as possible and have as few limitations and forced ways of operations as possible.
Knockdown and parry would be best being completely softcoded though to allow full range of options for everyone to modify it as they see fit.
Excellent point @highv_priest , there is no reason to ask for Parry to be removed, because it can already be done so with a simple modification.
Fixing parry, on the other hand is not really all that simple for module builders.
I think that might be the killing blow on any kind of discussion on removal of the skill. (Not to mention the backwards compatibility issues it would cause).
Finally, I think it's really disingenuous to try and claim fixing parry would only ever be unbalanced. It is quite possible to make parry a balanced skill, and I already pointed out one way much earlier in the thread, but people seem to have missed it.
There seems to be a few good candidates for 'fixing' parry in this thread.
OPTION 1. Making successive parry's and ripostes lower your next rolls for the skill that turn. Successful parry is -5 to next roll, successful ripostes -10 to skill rolls that round.
Example: Character A: 20 parry, Character B: 10 AB
B is melee attacking A, while A is in parry stance.
B attacks 10+10=20, a rolls 5+20=25, difference = 5, parried, A takes -5 parry fatigue penalty
next round: B attacks 10+10=20, a rolls 10+15=25, difference = 5, parried, A takes another -5 parry fatigue penalty
next round: B attacks 1+10=11, a rolls 11+10=21, difference = 10, riposte, A takes -10 riposte penalty
next round: B attacks 5+10=15, a rolls 10+0, difference = -5, B hits A.
OPTION 2. Parry stays the same in terms of flurries, but automatically critical hits on riposte
OPTION 3. Parry states the same in terms of flurries, but removes Dodge and/or Deflection AC.
OPTION 4. Parry is changed to match description. Module and PW builders write a script and disable it easily if they don't like it.
All options listed above are better than leaving it as is, and 'removing' it, as previously mentioned many times, is simply not an option for Beamdog.
But why remove it? What difference does it make in comparison to denying access to it? And even more curiously, why deny access to it if it sucks?
If it was OP, removing/denying would be understandable, but as far as most people think, Parry is useless. Why care so much about removing it? Why Parry and not Dirty Fighting, Improved Initiative or any number of the horribly useless skills/feats/spells that the game has in abundance?
How about make riposte a feat that is unlocks improve parry? For most builds, especially non fighters, this means you’re making more of a sacrifice to use parry as anything other than pure defense.
And if you want to build that dex based two weapon fighting, riposting machine? Go right ahead. I still think you’d get trounced by a greatsword or katana wielding weapon master, or any other high level strength based fighter.
If you want to present a cohesive experience based on rules that don't use these homebrewed features then optimally you would want the option to remove it so that your own set of rules (perhaps closer to D&D or closer to the spirit of D&D) will be seamless.
Relative power of parry is a discussion for those that love the feature and want to keep it. A removal column doesn't remove it for those ppl who love it, but it does give others a way to neatly and quickly seal off unwanted features.
I noticed in the last live stream they mentioned seeing several potential fixes that might work- each as good as the other- and more conversation needed.
Is there any way to get some feedback on what seems workable and what doesn’t? Or what the potential candidates are? Just so we have some focus for debate.
"We need player opinions about requests in the “Needs More Discussion” column. For example, there are currently 8 ideas about how to fix the Parry skill in NWN:EE expressed by the community. While we’ll definitely do something with this skill (in the same time keeping it not overpowered), it would help a lot if a consensus in the community could be reached." http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/01/january-19-livestream-recap.html
I'm going to create a poll: so that people could vote on what to do with this skill.
Before I create this poll, could folks here provide feedback to whether I have covered all opinions, or not:
1. The idea of parry fatigue when parrying per round would level the playing field for other combatants but still allow parry to have some use.
2. Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.
3. Fix that the skill will only ever parry the first attack per "flurry", regardless of how many attacks it can block per round
4. Parry should work as intended. You are standing still deflecting attacks, its a combat mode that doesn't allow to do anything else.
5. Do reasonable. Don't make this ability overpowered.
6. Remove Parry.
7. Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
If anything I would prefer a combination of 4 and 7. Even working as intended in single player games it’s only moderately useful, but I understand why PWs that have pvp dueling might find it over powered in epic levels.
Comments
Meanwhile let me point out a few other things. I haven't suggested removing parry. After careful consideration (as someone who has been in this thread from the start and read all the posts, so doesn't jump to incorrect conclusions about someone) I think it should be left exactly as it is, with an amended description, unless a solution is found that makes it workable, but not overpowered and doesn't take much time to implement.
I don't accept that BD should spend precious time to introduce an overpowered ability that will then have to be disabled by PWs or module makers (or not). What is the point? Perhaps they should create some other overpowered abilities that can then also be disabled. The argument is specious.
People calling for it clearly want to use it. So, I challenge them to go back and read the arguments about why it's overpowered. The numbers don't lie.
When it comes down to it, there will always been some variation of something that will be broken in DND, and especially in NWN. Servers already try to play some kind of balancing act, but I have yet to see any that did not end up creating an imbalance in their attempts to create a level playing field.
I don't think we should be afraid of Parry becoming useful, what I don't want to see is broken features of the game being left broken because some people would prefer that they didn't exist at all. We cannot remove parry without destroying backwards compatibility, so the options are:
leave it as is, or fix it.
Of the two options, I can't fathom why anyone would choose to leave it broken.
Fix parry, make it reasonable, there is no reason to fear 'OP' builds, if power gaming and min-maxing was something that turned you off this game, you would have left long ago.
All my experience comes from RP/Coop scenarios where these balance issues aren't such a big deal, but flavor, unusual builds and variety matter more, and I would argue that this was the original focus of the game and ruleset. So I would agree with the post above that suggest editing the feat out in 2da for high level PvP scenarios, it's not nearly such a big deal for a module builder than breaking compatibility or taking the fun out for everyone else would be.
It is suppossed to be a counter attack once you put the enemy weapon out of balance and you get adavantage in your strike. As your martial prowess and style is superior than your rivals attemps.
Set the riposte attack with a nice effect like remove dodge and shield AC. or Higher chance of critical hit. Or something like that.
Now riposte is only a melee attack.
I like the concept of parry skill as a fighter who knows techniques rather than sweeping his weapon left and right.
The argue of high stacking skill bonus into parry skill is a module balancing issue.
take in account that AC begins with 10. And parry is d20. and if you want to attack with it you must overcome by ten the attack roll.
Switching to parry /non parry also is dangerous as it is not so smooth once you are in combat. Neither you can use active combat skills nor items as it cancels the stance.
And of course if the enemy runs away you chase him with no attack. If the enemy ignore you. You are wasting time. Parry is dumb as fuck as you stand still facing a target not attacking them and just waiting te blows to come. And doing nothing else.
Being open target to distance attacks and spellcasting. Even if parry is fixed. How can this shit be OP? How can you even compare with HiPS who can be spammed to death or with improved expertise while you can attack, Use Magic Device, drink potions, even spellcasting?
And again if you face a parry bonus of 101 vs Attack roll of 50. Thats not parry being broken. its bad dessign of module. or a great dessign if they dont give a F*** about balancing PvP.
The same skill bonus could be achieved in discipline or hide/move silently or spot/listen.
And if you waste 3 feats(one being epic) for improving your parry that literally outshines by 13 the bonus can be achieved in boosting attacks with feats.
You are focusing so heavily in a fancy stance that leaves you freaking standing still in front of a target who can ignore you. Run away or just switch to ranged weapon in front of your face and atrack you.
No. Parry is not OP. Is dumb. But fancy. And I like it and want to see it being treated like a viable option.
Even without bonuses from items, you can get over 90 easily!
43base
13 from feats
up to 17 or even more from dexterity if maxed (normally you max either str or dex so this is not some weird build tailored to max parry)
up to 19 from bard song that lasts 10 minutes with lasting inspiration
+1 from prayer up to 2 minutes
+4 from improved parry
by the way. Builders can make standard items not included in their loot system.
As for the character you mention. Same goes with hide/move silently. Or any other skill you maximize and spend epic skill proficiency.
Parry needs to be fixed. Then leave it open to modify it module side by nwscript so we can tailor it to our likes. Be OP/Nerfed/Balanced or just disabled.
No need to argue if the option is given to customize it.
plus the enemy can have 90 spot/listen as easily as you can have 90 hide+ms
plus true seeing negates hide/ms and hips completely
I think I said it before in this thread but again. Parry can never be balanced as the whole concept is faulty from beginning. The core issue is the attack bonus versus skill+d20. Skills are too easy to acquire/max and starting epic levels, skills progress twice as faster than attack bonus. Note, same goes for discipline, but that doesn't make you (almost) completely immune to melee attacks at least - only to knockdown and disarm.
BTW, critical strike is mentioned here a lot. I actually don't know how it works because parry is so useless right now, but I assume that what would be critical strike against your AC won't be a hit unless that was natural 20 if the attack roll didn't exceed parry skill+d20. Correct me if I am wrong.
It's fairly safe to assume 30 BAB, 18 starting strength, Great Strength/Dexterity III, Epic Combat Prowess and WF + EWF.
More module-dependant factors would be ability boosting items and magic weapons, let's assume +6 to strength from items and a +5 weapon.
All that considered, the opponent's attack bonus should be about +51. It's not a min-maxed build, but one that should be fairly accessible to almost every melee character at this point.
In such environment, Parry should be able to block every parry'able attack that's not a natural 20. That would be 3 out of 4 at minimum, but likely about 5. Additionally, each of these three parried attacks would be guaranteed to trigger a riposte, because the opponent's attack roll will be 70 at most, which is way lower than needed for a counterattack to be made.
Obviously, the more opponents the parrying character fights simultaneously, the less useful parry becomes, but in such circumstances, is there something I'm missing or is Parry pretty good even in its current state in low-magic settings?
Edit: I got it the other way and assumed it's the attack roll that needs to overcome the Parry value, while it's Parry roll that needs to overcome the DC equal to the attack roll... But it looks like it makes Parry only better, not worse (Parry + d20 against attack roll, whereas I thought it's attack roll against Parry).
@hda_nwn As I've noted, taking Parry on a Dexer does not preclude you from HiPS, in fact they mesh quite nicely (I have played a parrying HiPSter). The man stands still, you Hide, turn off parry mode, move round to his back and strike, then turn parry mode back on. This takes some skill/practice, but it's not hard. In any case the AI will never stand still, so you are only talking about PvP. And we already know that far more players are SP than MP and not every MP wants to PvP (which isn't part of the core D&D experience anyway).
Parry does not protect you from Ranged Attacks or spells, but no melee is protected from these (although HiPS helps), so that's a red herring.
@Rifkin and I already pointed out that because one thing is broken, doesn't make introducing another broken thing OK. "Fixed" Parry will break every module going in balance terms, so it's quite funny when you argue against removing parry because it would break compatibility (name me the modules that actually use the skill).
Truth be told, I've never really looked Into Parry much, just assumed it's horrible. Now I think that it doesn't really need modifications, because it seems quote useful, even if only situationally.
Nevertheless, removing it is not an option. You can't break compatibility by arguing that feature being non-compatible with the EE is rarely used anyway. Once again I'm offering to send anyone interested an override for hiding parry if they really with to get rid of it, but don't remove parry just for the sake of it from the base game. It's not any inherent game mechanism that you are forced to experience. I can't understand - what's so difficult about ignoring parry?
As I see it. Currently parry is kinda useable in pre 20 environments. Which is 99% of singleplayer modules. It is trash on high levels, but that should not really be a concern of the SP players who lobbied this request into trello anyway.
If fixed, those of us running PW would have to start trying balance parry on our own because it would become too good and too easy to use compared to anything else.
In 1v1 it can rather easily parry all three (1 per flurry) attacks that Parry can currently attempt to block. This includes the full BAB attack. A build that will be guaranteed to perform a riposte at each of these blocks is also easily achievable.
So, in a scenario of two melee characters battling it out with 5 attacks per round each, if the 1st of them is in parry mode, they will lose two attacks (but the ones with the lowest BAB), but their opponent will lose three due to them being parried (and that includes their full BAB attack).
The more attacks per round the parrying character has, the less effective it becomes because he'll lose more, but on the bright side, if they have only 4 attacks per round, he'll lose only one, basically.
Of course it's a situational advantage, because parry won't work against multiple opponents, spellcasters and shooters, but in 1v1 it appears that parrying is more profitable than not parrying.
To me, that seems like far from trash, but please correct me if I'm missing something.
I still think the best solution is just to change and improve the things around parry and ignore it for the most part. Extending skills.2da with an easy to use removal column and either removing flurry combat phases or unhardcoding them in some way seems best.
Discussing the relative power of parry in various situations and modules doesn't seem like a discussion that will go anywhere or ever reach a useful conclusion.
Just leave it as a relic of the OC and move on without it.
This scenario also reveals a major mechanical weakness with the implementation.
Parry should really be a FEAT that would allow Riposte attacks while in Total Defense mode, if opponent misses attack roll by more than 10.
Though as I explained above, it appears to me that Parry is actually in no need of fixing.
When in parry mode they have +20 ab allowing them to hit and each hit they land gains the damage bonus of the critical multiplier of their weapon.
However mine was a rough approximation......
Parry in actual game code should continue being the first attack of each flurry and the amount parry is higher than their ab is the ab the parryer gains and all parry hits are automatically critical hits.
That's IT..... That alone adds a layer of depth to parry and makes it still only situational. They get at most 3 possible attacks which are likely to hit that deal critical damage at the cost of being unable to just attack when they want and needing all those skill points.
This way a fixed parry skill is still useful defensively- and offensively if you’re fighting a non melee oriented character- but won’t allow anyone to potentially run through full melee oriented character.
And for people who don’t like either skill, they could just eliminate them with a 2da edit...
Providing there’s a way to add regular checks to knockdown.
Knockdown and parry would be best being completely softcoded though to allow full range of options for everyone to modify it as they see fit.
Fixing parry, on the other hand is not really all that simple for module builders.
I think that might be the killing blow on any kind of discussion on removal of the skill. (Not to mention the backwards compatibility issues it would cause).
Finally, I think it's really disingenuous to try and claim fixing parry would only ever be unbalanced. It is quite possible to make parry a balanced skill, and I already pointed out one way much earlier in the thread, but people seem to have missed it.
There seems to be a few good candidates for 'fixing' parry in this thread.
OPTION 1. Making successive parry's and ripostes lower your next rolls for the skill that turn. Successful parry is -5 to next roll, successful ripostes -10 to skill rolls that round.
Example: Character A: 20 parry, Character B: 10 AB
B is melee attacking A, while A is in parry stance.
B attacks 10+10=20, a rolls 5+20=25, difference = 5, parried, A takes -5 parry fatigue penalty
next round: B attacks 10+10=20, a rolls 10+15=25, difference = 5, parried, A takes another -5 parry fatigue penalty
next round: B attacks 1+10=11, a rolls 11+10=21, difference = 10, riposte, A takes -10 riposte penalty
next round: B attacks 5+10=15, a rolls 10+0, difference = -5, B hits A.
OPTION 2. Parry stays the same in terms of flurries, but automatically critical hits on riposte
OPTION 3. Parry states the same in terms of flurries, but removes Dodge and/or Deflection AC.
OPTION 4. Parry is changed to match description. Module and PW builders write a script and disable it easily if they don't like it.
All options listed above are better than leaving it as is, and 'removing' it, as previously mentioned many times, is simply not an option for Beamdog.
If it was OP, removing/denying would be understandable, but as far as most people think, Parry is useless. Why care so much about removing it? Why Parry and not Dirty Fighting, Improved Initiative or any number of the horribly useless skills/feats/spells that the game has in abundance?
And if you want to build that dex based two weapon fighting, riposting machine? Go right ahead. I still think you’d get trounced by a greatsword or katana wielding weapon master, or any other high level strength based fighter.
Relative power of parry is a discussion for those that love the feature and want to keep it. A removal column doesn't remove it for those ppl who love it, but it does give others a way to neatly and quickly seal off unwanted features.
Is there any way to get some feedback on what seems workable and what doesn’t? Or what the potential candidates are? Just so we have some focus for debate.
"We need player opinions about requests in the “Needs More Discussion” column. For example, there are currently 8 ideas about how to fix the Parry skill in NWN:EE expressed by the community. While we’ll definitely do something with this skill (in the same time keeping it not overpowered), it would help a lot if a consensus in the community could be reached." http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/01/january-19-livestream-recap.html
I'm going to create a poll: so that people could vote on what to do with this skill.
Before I create this poll, could folks here provide feedback to whether I have covered all opinions, or not:
1. The idea of parry fatigue when parrying per round would level the playing field for other combatants but still allow parry to have some use.
2. Parry should block (and attempt ripostes against) every attack in a flurry, up to the defender's number of attacks per round (per the description.
3. Fix that the skill will only ever parry the first attack per "flurry", regardless of how many attacks it can block per round
4. Parry should work as intended. You are standing still deflecting attacks, its a combat mode that doesn't allow to do anything else.
5. Do reasonable. Don't make this ability overpowered.
6. Remove Parry.
7. Provide an option for modders to customize it, make it just a matter of PW configuration.
8. Don't do anything to existing behavior.
9. Another solution (please, suggest).