True classes for companions

DrakeICN

As of the making of BG, not all classes and kits (in fact, the way I remember it, the only kit in BG was specialist mage) were available, and some companions are clearly a bit misclassed because of it.

Of course, most of these are easy to rectify using eekeeper. Also note that it is possible to make some illegal combinations with eekeeper, primarily is it possible to give a kit to multiclass characters. And also, of course, I keep it EE clean, but for your suggestions, go ahead and suggest mod classes if you so please.

Here are some of my suggestions, from the top of my head;

Imoen - Jester
No, joking. I make Imoen a jester because I want a jester in my team, but I dont want to play that for my main. I think Imoen should be a pure thief, but in BGII when she duals, she should become an evoker specialist, because it suits her, not a pure mage.

Minsc
Uhhh... barbarian? Yes yes, I know there is some backstory with the original devs and Minsc, but... barbarian?

Shar-Tel
Obviously berserker!

Xan
I think Xan would have practised more with his little sword or dagger, whatever. I mean after he was granted it, and getting prepared to be sent on some holy quest, I feel like the elven warriors would have given him some hints, and he needs to beef up on HP too, since his sword is clearly a melee weapon. I tried dualing him 2 levels of fighter with eekeeper, but that was messy for some reason, so instead I just give him two pips in dagger, 1 pip in single weapon style and a +12 HP bonus.

I could suggest more, but why take that fun away from the other posters in this thread?

tbone1

Montaron - swashbuckler or assassin

Faldorn - avenger

Nalia - bard, possibly skald

Safana - swashbuckler

Valygar - wizard slayer

DJKajuru

I think that people focus too much on the kits abilities and less on how the npc would authentically blend with it.

I mean, I've seen lots of people say that imoen should be a swashbuckler, which is a flashy corsair-like, duelist type of rogue, while Imoen is more of a "it wasn't me"/ playfulness/ I'll attack from a distance/ curious bout magic type . So I think that she fits perfectly a normal thief , with emphasis on being smart/perceptive (traps, locks) and sneaky.

Minsc , as a ranger, has a perfectly original story. Once he had wisdom 14 and had a huge potential, but someone hit him in the head and now he's a *special* ranger.

Ive seen people say that Eldoth should be a blade, but let's be honest, he's never dared to threaten *anyone* in the game with weapons. He's a manipulative kind of guy, a perfectly evil bard.

I agree that shar teel should be a berserker, that woman is a pile of rage.

Kivan is definitely an archer, he fits the role perfectly.

Alora should be a burglar kind of thief, but it doesn't require a kit - thief is one of the most customizable classes.

Montaron is an assassin wannabe for sure, but the npc Project gave him a nice background story (joined the militia, twas too orderly etc).

DrakeICN

DJKajuru said:

I mean, I've seen lots of people say that imoen should be a swashbuckler, which is a flashy corsair-like, duelist type of rogue, while Imoen is more of a "it wasn't me"/ playfulness/ I'll attack from a distance/ curious bout magic type . So I think that she fits perfectly a normal thief , with emphasis on being smart/perceptive (traps, locks) and sneaky.

Yes, this is what I think too. Companions classes should be more aligned with what suits their personality - and to me, evoker suits Imoens personality. On the other hand, plenty of people have a day job, not because it is what they dreamed of becoming while growing up, but because they are good at it. Khalid comes to mind.

ThacoBell

I don't see how Evoker suits Imoen at all. At not point does she come off as aggressive, which is what Evokers are all about, dishing out damage. I'd see her as an enchanter or a diviner if I had to pick a kit for her. I think a generalist mage makes more sense for a thief who decided to pick up magic.

DrakeICN

Not aggressive, but she is lively and impatient. Evoker suits her fine, methinks.

ThacoBell

You don't pick Evoker to be lively. You pick Evoker to hurt people, its the entire philosophy of the kit.

Flashburn

If that's the case, Edwin would make a better Evoker than Dynaheir since he threatens to fireball the party as they sleep on multiple occasions. I never see him say anything like "I'll summon a demon to eat you!" or anything that references Conjuration magic.

Balrog99

DrakeICN said:

As of the making of BG, not all classes and kits (in fact, the way I remember it, the only kit in BG was specialist mage) were available, and some companions are clearly a bit misclassed because of it.

Of course, most of these are easy to rectify using eekeeper. Also note that it is possible to make some illegal combinations with eekeeper, primarily is it possible to give a kit to multiclass characters. And also, of course, I keep it EE clean, but for your suggestions, go ahead and suggest mod classes if you so please.

Here are some of my suggestions, from the top of my head;

Imoen - Jester
No, joking. I make Imoen a jester because I want a jester in my team, but I dont want to play that for my main. I think Imoen should be a pure thief, but in BGII when she duals, she should become an evoker specialist, because it suits her, not a pure mage.

Minsc
Uhhh... barbarian? Yes yes, I know there is some backstory with the original devs and Minsc, but... barbarian?

Shar-Tel
Obviously berserker!

Xan
I think Xan would have practised more with his little sword or dagger, whatever. I mean after he was granted it, and getting prepared to be sent on some holy quest, I feel like the elven warriors would have given him some hints, and he needs to beef up on HP too, since his sword is clearly a melee weapon. I tried dualing him 2 levels of fighter with eekeeper, but that was messy for some reason, so instead I just give him two pips in dagger, 1 pip in single weapon style and a +12 HP bonus.

I could suggest more, but why take that fun away from the other posters in this thread?

How about Blade for Xan instead of all the customization? It fits his high charisma, boosts his dagger ability and gives him extra hp's at the same time! The only cheat is that he's an elf so it's not (technically) allowed...

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Contemplative_Hamster

@subtledoctor
I thought the Loremaster was a mage/thief kit? I vaguely recall this being a bard kit in the distant past, but apparently not anymore.
https://github.com/UnearthedArcana/Might_and_Guile/blob/master/README.md

Edit. Confirmed. I checked Github. It used to be a bard kit but hasn't been for some time.

Contemplative_Hamster

In my next game, I might try out Xan as a multi fighter/enchanter (through TomeAndBlood and NPC_ee, though the spell slots will be off), or as a bard.

Actually, Xan makes sense as a bard;

Xan the Skald for the martial and enchanter/ people person vibes, though Xan seems an unlikely candidate for either given his personality and squishyness. The Moonblade and wizardly specialization seem to be roles inflicted upon him, which makes him idiosyncratic and interesting.

Or Xan the Dirgesinger from the Song and Silence mod, to go with his abysmal personality and depression. Reading the kit description (http://gibberlings3.net/sns/),
it actually seems a good fit for Xan. He is generally miserable, intent on communicating it incessantly rather than keeping it to himself, and is acquainted with personal loss; his cousin snuffed it in Icewind Dale many years previously, and Xan was already morose back then according to his cousin's diary.

Or Xan the Jester: more specifically, Xan the Sad Clown/Eyeore, whose defeatist attitude drives everyone to distraction or drink. Clowns cry on the inside, as the saying goes; perhaps they don't all laugh on the outside?

Yes, Xan could definitely be a bard, in terms of personality as well as in terms of game mechanics.

tbone1

subtledoctor said:

Nalia seems like a cleric->mage or possibly a Loremaster bard. Skald makes zero sense to me. She's a nobleman's daughter, not a Viking.

I was thinking that bards, particularly skalds, are storytellers. It would seem to fit with her magic training, sneakiness, and being part of a society yet somehow outside it as well. A skald can make sense because many Norse sagas that have survived are about everyday common people stuff like families, justice, etc. That would, in her mind, give her cache with "the people". Granted, those tend to be from a republic (Iceland) rather than the kingdoms back in Europe.

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AstroBryGuy

Contemplative_Hamster said:

In my next game, I might try out Xan as a multi fighter/enchanter (through TomeAndBlood and NPC_ee, though the spell slots will be off), or as a bard.

Actually, Xan makes sense as a bard;

Xan the Skald for the martial and enchanter/ people person vibes, though Xan seems an unlikely candidate for either given his personality and squishyness. The Moonblade and wizardly specialization seem to be roles inflicted upon him, which makes him idiosyncratic and interesting.

Or Xan the Dirgesinger from the Song and Silence mod, to go with his abysmal personality and depression. Reading the kit description (http://gibberlings3.net/sns/),
it actually seems a good fit for Xan. He is generally miserable, intent on communicating it incessantly rather than keeping it to himself, and is acquainted with personal loss; his cousin snuffed it in Icewind Dale many years previously, and Xan was already morose back then according to his cousin's diary.

Or Xan the Jester: more specifically, Xan the Sad Clown/Eyeore, whose defeatist attitude drives everyone to distraction or drink. Clowns cry on the inside, as the saying goes; perhaps they don't all laugh on the outside?

Yes, Xan could definitely be a bard, in terms of personality as well as in terms of game mechanics.

Xan should be a bard with a song that penalizes allies. "Our quest is vain!" "We're doomed!"

lroumen

A bard? Are you sure you don't just want that fancy moonblade to have more influence? The ac and resistance are more useful to a mage than any thac0 or he should have been either transmuter or invoker. I don't see him singing any songs or inspiring lots of people...

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Contemplative_Hamster

In the original PnP game that inspired the BG games, and in the development of BG, Xan WAS a fighter, but this was changed late in development when there was found to be a lack of mages in the game.

I found the reference, and then I lost it, sorry.

Edit; but yeah, I'd love me some of that sweet moonblade love minus the mage thaco, so bard or f/m make sense in that sense, too.

lroumen

I see

Skatan

In a heavily customized run some years ago I made Xan a F/M using S/S and his moonblade. It was a good fit at first but as with all F/M types, when he reached 7/8 he became so powerful that his lines didn't really fit anymore when he could wade alone into a throng of enemies, invulnerable to their attacks and slaughter them all with ease.

So I've never made him F/M again after that. A cheated level 2-4 fighter dual to mage would prolly fit better if anything. I don't think bard fits him at all but then again, how the hell can he have 16 CHA to begin with? That personality and those stats? Yeesh.. I't like not even the dev's knew what they wanted to do with him.

@Contemplative_Hamster, interesting info about him being a fighter at first. Would have been interresting to run a playthrough with just Khalid and Xan as front line fighters, hehe..

Contemplative_Hamster

@Skatan

It's fun to wonder whether Khalid or Xan would hold up better as front liners!

(Act one, scene one: Khalid and Xan enter a placid woodland setting. Two xvarts sound their battle yodel, eeeee-eeeeeeeee, and proceed to attaaaaack!)

Khalid takes two points of damage, stutters "Better part of valour, better part of valour!", runs away.
Xan proclaims "we're all doomed", dies of xvart.

(and scene)

Contemplative_Hamster

@lroumen @AstroBryGuy

Re: bard class. Your basic bard theme is not a good fit, but most of the bard mechanics work well with Xan. He's got a sword which chose him and which he's not really equipped to deal with, so he's not a fighter by inclination or training. His wizardly specialization is influencing people, but he's gloomy and defeatist, not a people person at all (until you get to know him), and definitely not a leader, so a high-CHA wizard specializing in people magic is not really a good fit, either. The bard class helps explain his marginal competence with the magic sword (the sword empowers him and makes him slightly better at combat), and the bard class gives him access to magic. I think it'd be a bridge too far to make Xan a non-spellcaster.

The bard song can be explained away as I did above. Xan is not a singer, he's a spoken-word artist in a class of his own.

Trueclass song, well, he's so gloomy and defeatist that his allies fight all the harder just to show him up and shut him up. "Will you quit your whining, WE DID WIN THAT BATTLE ALRIGHT?!?!". Jester kit song that penalizes and confuses enemies, well, Xan's allies have become inured and he turns his attentions to the enemy, explaining in a loud and peevish voice exactly why, even if they win, they're all doomed and in any case, life is hollow, oh so what's the point?

(But really, I never use bard songs - though I might give @subtledoctor 's songs a go - so that's just an inconvenient button on Xan's control panel. One could ignore it entirely and still enjoy the rest of the benefits. I've had a Charname like that once or twice - a fast-levelling pseudo mage/thief who's the group's charismatic leader and haggler. Too busy pointing wands to sing songs.)

AstroBryGuy

There isn't a lot of canon-lore in the dialogs, but what little there is points to Xan as a mage. His very first line to CHARNAME (positive reaction) is that he is "as proficient in the ways of magic as any man can be". That doesn't fit a bard, which is supposed to be more of a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none type.

Contemplative_Hamster

He's applying for his life, his freedom and possibly a job. He's allowed to be economical with the truth. He puts his best foot forward. I wouldn't hire someone who'd confess to merely dabbling a little in this and that, not if my life were on the line. Would you?

And this leaves aside the whole meta-perspective that we players have. WE know what he is. WE are omniscient observers and can check the Wiki if we do forget something. Charname does not, is not, and cannot. Charname sees an elf who claims to be a powerful mage. He casts a magic spell. QED for the time being to all but the most inquisitive Charnames.

Xan will be a bard in my game next time around, methinks.

Nikomakkos

subtledoctor said:

Nalia seems like a cleric->mage or possibly a Loremaster bard. Skald makes zero sense to me. She's a nobleman's daughter, not a Viking.

But vikings were, a great many of them, noblemen and noblemen's sons and a few possibly even daughters.

lroumen

Are you sure you need that much justification to play the game as you like?
You know, he could have been a ranger for all we know. Those things can cast spells too

Contemplative_Hamster

It simply amuses me to think about things that are not work work work related.
Though come to think of it, what I do for a living also requires me to speculate about the motivations and actions of fictional characters.
Dang. I'm working right now, aren't I.

AstroBryGuy

My suggestion would be to give Xan's Moonblade an invocable Tenser's Transformation effect.

recklessheart

ThacoBell said:

I don't see how Evoker suits Imoen at all. At not point does she come off as aggressive, which is what Evokers are all about, dishing out damage. I'd see her as an enchanter or a diviner if I had to pick a kit for her. I think a generalist mage makes more sense for a thief who decided to pick up magic.

Flashburn said:

If that's the case, Edwin would make a better Evoker than Dynaheir since he threatens to fireball the party as they sleep on multiple occasions. I never see him say anything like "I'll summon a demon to eat you!" or anything that references Conjuration magic.

DrakeICN said:

Not aggressive, but she is lively and impatient. Evoker suits her fine, methinks.

Sorry if it is considered a derailment, but I had a personal interest in looping back to this. I don't think Evoker suits Imoen, but as a category of Wizard, the Evoker is generally found in the ranks of arcane militaries and large battlefields. An Evoker Wizard is generally the most militant, which I have always interpreted as bending their personality therefore towards discipline and a degree of level-headedness in combat (fireballing your own ranks is the kind of rookie mistake that an Evoker would never make with the spells of their school; an Illusionist is more likely to botch such spells, surely?).

Given Dynaheir's role in her nation's government and the Arcane warring that occurs between Rasheman and Thay, I suspect she's the most suited of all the mages we meet in Baldur's Gate to being an Evoker.

I suspect Edwin's affinity to Conjuration is played out in his habit to refer to those around him as "simians". He has elected to pick a school of magic that allows him to command others to do the "monkey work" that he considers to be far below his rank. Conjuration strikes me as the most power hungry school of magic, anyway, if you consider the classic trope of almighty magic tending to culminate in the binding of demons and extraterrestrial beings and whatever to one's will.

Illusion seems the natural choice for Imoen, though personally I agree that she should have no specialisation. The idea of giving a specialisation to somebody who has another class (therefore isn't committing their whole discipline to the mastery of that school) is displeasing to me, though 2nd edition had made an allowance for Gnomes and I'll not dispute that. By the time you get to Shadows of Amn, one might even argue that Necromancy would suit Imoen most as her jovial, ne'erdowell disposition is replaced by a morbid fascination with death. But again, generalist is the one most suited to her in my opinion.

Mantis37

Level 1 NPCs can also be used to switch up classes- an EE compatible version is in the G3 Forum.

I usually switch around the classes of my companions each run, just for variety. One time Coran may be a Bounty Hunter, another a Sniper, another a Gallant. NPCs personalities / dialogues can often be stretched to fit a range of class functions with just a bit of hand-waving. Whatever seems fun really. Edwin as an invoker does seem appropriate... there's another one to try...

WatchForWolves

Absolutely agree with Minsc being a Berserker. I would go as far as EEKeeper that in, but there is a piece of dialogue in BG2/ToB that refers to him as a "Ranger". Guess you could ax that in a mod.

Imoen though? Probably Swashbuckler, it fits her personality best. And backstabbing doesn't.