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[Very Spoiler] Trial of Selfishness exploit


Just a message cuz I just found a new exploit for the Trial of Selfishness in Hell, and I'm not sure it is known.

Just cast Maze on Charname, open the "good" doors with another NPC and wait for Charname to return and speak to Selfishness. Bam, good path without the disadvantages.

I thought the many many exploits possible had been corrected in EE. Oh well...



  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,716
    good one!
    now please find the right exploit to have the blackrazor and the good choice, i really miss it in EE and think that the way it used to work in original was pure genius, it was an exploit that was really sound rp wise and had a lot of sense. the changes the devs made to avoid it imo have less sense.
    as i always play good i really miss that sword, not that i can not live without it, but i like it and like the way that i can obtain it in original without changing alignment...

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,252
    Zen said:

    I thought the many many exploits possible had been corrected in EE. Oh well...

    EE didn't purposefully close almost any of the exploits i'd say. a few closed exploits are a consequence of general bug fixing

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,716
    edited February 2018
    @bob_veng i disagree.
    lets talk about the blackrazor exploit i was talking about, EE did 2 different things to close it, made impossible to pickpocket the genie, and it is not related to general bug fixing, and made impossible to leave the area of each trial until the trial is ended, also there i am not aware of any bug related to exiting that area, doing an other trial and then entering the area again to complete it.
    so both the thief way and the way that uses an exploit to use twice an other tear are not possible in EE, the only way to get the sword is to accept the alignment change if you are playing good.

    i would say that EE closed on purpose most of the completely optional exploits, things that a player has to do on purpose, by choice, and only few was closed cause of bug fixing.

    an other example is 3xPI in a CC, it never originated any bug, was clearly an intentional thing and now is not possible. the EE developers want to close some of the exploits because they don't like that the players use them, even when it is something clearly intended by the player and will never give any problem to other players that don't want to use that exploit.

    have the devs the right to do it? sure.
    do i personally like it, even when the exploit use is clearly intentional and its existence does not affect in any way the gaming experience of who dislike to use it? surely not, as i find probably more fun in using exploits and researching about them than playing the game in a straight way. and that is the reason why both EE and original are installed on my computer.
    but those are tastes, devs ones and my ones.
    the thing that devs are nerfing exploits because they want to do so and not as a consequence of bugfixing is a fact.
    EDIT: also the thing that i don't post here most of the exploits i find in the game for the very reason that i don't want the devs knowing them and nerfing them is a fact. i am not happy of it, i would like to share my best tricks as i know that there is people that like me likes researching about exploits and some of them are much better than me doing it, but i believe in freedom. i don't like the shield of balduran as it trivializes some of the strongest enemies of SoA, but i don't want it to be removed. i never buy it and for me is enough, i respect the freedom of who makes the opposite choice as long as he is having fun playing. i don't want my personal "shields of balduran", the exploits that are my recipes, removed from my own game, even if usually i use them and then reload and fight again the battle without them.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    For better or worse the game was very clearly designed to prevent you getting that sword inless you oay the price with an alignment change.

    If you think that's not well-designed (and I would agree with you there) the better way to deal with it is to mod it so that it works differently. In fact I'm pretty surprised that hasn't been done...

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,716
    @subtledoctor i agree, you are not supposed to get it without changing alignment, it was an exploit.
    like the one posted by the OP, the one i posted in an other topic about using multiple times only some of the tears to stack their effects. and everybody is only few clicks of console or EEkeeper to have that sword, if he really wants to have it.
    i would like to be able to mod to rewrite the whole change alignment thing, making the choices important for everybody, so also the evil charnames have a chance of "redemption", maybe not wanted.
    probably i would give to neutral ones a little more freedom of choice, they have to chose 4 good or evil tears to change, and make possible to evil and good ones 1 choice without consequence, at the 2nd they shift to neutral and the 3rd they get the opposite one.
    but i am not a modder, and anyway is my taste, my opinion, there is a reason in how it is now as charname is pulled toward evil by the taint and if he wants to resist a strong effort is needed.

    my rant in the previous post was about the fact that i disagree with @bob_veng about the exploits nerfed as a consequence of bugfixing, about the freedom of players to chose to cheat or find ways to exploit their own game, when an exploit has no consequences on who don't want to use it, and in this particular case on the elegance of the exploit.
    RP elegance as the one that gives you the task clearly states that the genie hes the tear, he gives you the sword, but nowhere is written that you must kill the genie or give him the sword, or complete the trial, you really only need to have the tear in your pocket, and if you have a thief that invested points in pickpocketing...
    that exploit was more thinking out of the box, rp wise, than exploiting game mechanics, of the many exploits i like to use was probably the more RP sound, if not the only one.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Of course, if the sword can only be obtained and used by evil folks, then it should only actually be usable by evil.

    Which is to say the reason for using the exploit, and your rp rationale, are totally valid. It's the way it was designed that is imperfect. The blame for your not getting it now lies with Bioware, not Beamdog.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,716
    in original, where the exploit is still possible, that sword is the main weapon on my haer dalis or fmt, even if i don't play evil uai overrides its evil only characteristic, the oh weapon is scarlet, an other weapon that without uai they can not use.
    believe me, a tenser transformed haer dalis with those weapons is a monster, as few hits after the fight begins he gets 6 apr, permanent 25str and 20 hp/round healed on average without using any spell, he has enough apr to have the effects constantly reapplied as long as the battle continues. only very few enemies are immune to +3 weapons and usually in those battles he can be used against the not immune helpers, then he switches to better enchantment weapons and continues to benefit of the boosts for other 20 seconds.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,557
    CamDawg said:

    We do close exploits, on a much lower priority than bugs. Generally we don't bother unless we have a reason--e.g. we prioritize ones that can be discovered by the player accidentally, are easily fixed, or prevent story inconsistencies.

    The 'exploits are intended!' argument always amuses me. At no point during development of the EEs did we strategize about loosening mechanics so that clever players can have advantages.

    unless it's giving Drizzt the somehow goldlike ability to always be able to see invisible creature eh? ;)

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394
    sarevok57 said:

    unless it's giving Drizzt the somehow goldlike ability to always be able to see invisible creature eh? ;)

    Let me state for the record that I am not a fan of Drizzt's appearance in BG. It's unnecessary and strikes me as fan service. The ideal solution would be to make him fight fair, and flee when he's in an unwinnable fight. Unfortunately IE scripting is not that flexible or subtle, so we end up with ham-handed solutions like these.

    Personally, I'd prefer to slap an invincibility item on him and be done with it, but then that opens a story hole for his BG2 appearance--something else that I'm not a fan of. :)

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,716
    i never used the 'exploits are intended!' argument, i am convinced that they are not so. but both in original and in EE they are possible, even if not intended by devs, and some players have fun in researching about them and including them in their own "special recipes". other less creative players simply copy other people recipes, for whatever reason they like to do it. some of those reasons amuse me, as i see the merit of the one that discovered the trick to trap the tanner with party members to talk to him multiple times or the trick of boost hp summoning the familiar then save and import the character to boost hp, but i don't see any difference between copying those recipes and using EEkeeper. but if for some players to be able to cheat without using the console and external program is a good thing i don't see a single reason why i should complain about it, i respect their own choices, feelings and taste and don't want to be judgmental.

    when you write "clever players can have advantages" you completely miss my point, cheating players can have all the advantages they want if they learn the basics of console, EEkeeper and a couple of modding tools. they can have a blackrazor allowed to everyone and with much more powerful effects, 25 in every stat of every party member, all the xp they need for free and on and over. and they probably will discover that the game becomes too easy and there is no more fun in playing it. or they can copy the recipes of the exploit researchers to have much minor advantages. my point is all about the fun in researching and in experimenting new tactics that the exploits make possible. even if you nerfed the possibility of getting blackrazor by not evil players we are only a couple of clicks away from having it. and when i was using it on my haer dalis i was testing the true potential of npcs and equipment, i reloaded each battle many times, on my modded game, sending each party member solo against the enemies or fighting with the full party but self imposing some limitations, like no spells, only spells, only ranged weapons and so on.

    my point is that if an exploit need a deliberate choice to happen, does not affect the gaming of who don't want to use it and don't creates story inconsistencies that break the plot i don't see a single reason why it should be prevented, and this is my personal opinion. but as the devs and not me are in charge and must take the decision i respect their right to decide, even if for me the price of their decision is that i open more frequently the original game then the EE edition. not to have easy wins, as i can quite easily beat the game with the difficulty enhancing mods that i use, with the self limitations i give to me (i don't roll super stats for charname, i don't use some items like the anti beholder shield or same easy tactics like exploiting the fog of war, i even try to don't use metagame knowledge, so i go not buffed if i don't find in game a clue that i will find that kind of enemy in that particular moment). i do it just for the fun of trying new tactics, of finding the limits of every party and/or npc i use, of sometimes discover some new exploit or some new use of exploits discovered by others. when you close exploits you don't block the ones who like to cheat to have a too easy life, you lessen the fun of some players that after more of 15 years of playing it have more fun in finding tactics and eventually exploits then just beating a game that they know so well and have won so many times, vanilla or hard modded.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,716
    slap an invincibility item, that is something i really don't like. I can see the reason for the imoen's one, for the short time of chateau irenicus, i hate the idea of having it on the new vampire npc and please avoid to add other ones unless they are really needed plot wise.
    my personal opinion, obviously... :)

  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 292
    edited February 2018

    (...) I can see the reason for the imoen's one, for the short time of chateau irenicus, (...)blockquote>
    Totally off-topic, but that one doesnt even work.
    If you let Imoen into the corridor next to the room with the jailkeeper golem and shut the door behind her, she dies. Dead body on the floor and everything. And if she does, as far as I've seen anyway, might be mod-connected, she's there in spellhold and the ritual dream, but doesn't show up for recruitment in the Spellhold Maze.

    Edited to add: PLEASE don't fix this! It's a very convenient way to not have Imoen in the party and not say mean things to her. I do admit it takes some RP and headcanon to justify locking her up in a death trap with a mephit, but still...

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,716
    interesting, maybe is mod connected, but if not so is funny that the only time that an invincibility item is really needed, plot wise, it does not work 100% of the times :)

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,585
    You suck @CamDawg! @SethDavis is a way better bug fixer than you. :p :trollface:

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,716
    edited February 2018
    CamDawg said:

    I guess I misinterpreted this:

    an other example is 3xPI in a CC, it never originated any bug, was clearly an intentional thing and now is not possible.

    This is not an intentional thing, much less 'clearly'.

    sorry i probably was not clear, what is clearly intentional is the will of a player that puts 3 PI in a CC to use an exploit to do something that he was not supposed to do, to exploit the game.
    but the fact that the exploit was possible never originated bugs (like plot problems or whatever) or affected the players that did not want to perform the exploit.
    CamDawg said:

    Many EE developers are original developers, and also have regular contact with a number of others. This distinction between what the original devs want and what EE devs want is murky, at best.

    i know that, my distinction is only about the fact that many exploits, even if well documented on the net and in the forums, was never fixed by Bioware, while Beamdog seem to put much more attention in closing the exploits. i should have used do instead of want, as i can not read inside other people minds, but i can see what people do or have done.
    CamDawg said:

    Agreed. Yet when you point out that the benefits of whatever exploit is closed are still available via these tools, you get threads like this.

    my point is that if an exploit need a deliberate choice to happen, does not affect the gaming of who don't want to use it and don't creates story inconsistencies that break the plot i don't see a single reason why it should be prevented, and this is my personal opinion.

    We agree on this. Where we're differing is in the subjective interpretation of the conditions, which is not altogether surprising. I'm pretty sure if we had a list of 'exploits' to 100 players and asked which should be addressed, you'd get 100 different answers.
    yep, this is the point, 100 different heads, 100 different opinions and 100 different answers. What to do then?
    my opinion is that there are 2 kind of exploits, the ones that are not avoidable, that affect all the players, does not matter if their intention is to use them or not, and the ones whose use is intentional and deliberate, but can be easily avoided by who dislikes them.*
    the first ones have to be addressed as they ruin the gaming experience of players that don't want them.
    the others harm who dislike them only because they don't like that other players use them in their own games. as i believe in freedom, in the freedom of a player to have fun in is own not competitive game the way he likes, maybe cheating, maybe using exploits, as long as he doesn't ruin the gaming experience of other players in their own game, i think that is better to leave those exploits open.
    i value more the freedom of a player to have fun in his game the way he likes than the opinion of other players about how everybody else should play according to their personal taste and opinions.

    i respect the developers if they do an other choice, i am not in charge and the decision is not mine, but i defend my personal opinion about the matter and hope that at least the devs understand it. even if English is not my native language and probably i am not 100% clear.

    I value feedback, even in the form of 'you suck, CamDawg'*. I encourage you, strongly, to keep posting and discussing issues like this--we will listen, even if we eventually end up disagreeing.

    and i value your work, that is enhancing a game that imo was fantastic before, even if i disagree about some decisions the EE team has taken. 100 heads and 100 opinions, is normal that not the 100% of the players is happy with the 100% of the decisions you make, and that is fine.

    you suck is not the level of discussion i am interested in, and when i talk of something i dislike i never forget the things the devs have done that i like. and i don't ask to change what i don't like, as long as it does not affect my gaming experience. i really don't like how the vampire hexxat was build, but i know that other players like her, even if is cheating with her immortality, so i simply never use her.
    when something affects my gaming experience, like exploit closed, i try to explain my point of view in a respectful way, and my point of view is all about player's freedom to have fun the way he likes, not about what i personally like or dislike.
    i hope my feedback is useful, if we disagree i can live with it, the important thing is that the devs understand my position, then they are free to do whatever they like as they are in charge...

    *an example of exploit that can affect the player even if he don't want to use it was the using of MMM while equipping an OH weapon. to avoid it the player had to go to inventory and unequip the OH weapon. the exploit somehow ruined the gaming experience of some players as not everybody likes to have to go to the inventory and then remember to equip again the oh weapon as the mmm are used.

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited February 2018
    Hey, he was given a profanity warning before and after the post so it's all good.

  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 292
    Not arguing on that. I'm always here. I'm always there. There's no avoiding me. Unless you cast language immunity:profanity. But that's a lvl 16 spell and none got that :-D

  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 292
    CamDawg said:

    (...) I'll take a hundred 'you suck' for every 'you rock' and be happy(...)

    Would you stop tempting us already?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,716
    edited February 2018
    the one i told about of the oh weapon becoming the 5th minute meteor was a good example, in the original game you can have 4 meteors and a trowing celestial fury or whatever weapon is in the off hand. and playing a blade can happen to DW and then cast MMM, so it was a good example. it had been fixed in EE and it had to be fixed as there are some classes where both DW and MMM are used.
    getting multiple rings of the ram is an other one, some charname thieves like to invest skill points in pickpocket and is possible that they steal that ring, a high ranked CW probably is a good target to pickpoket. this is only partially closed in EE.
    turning to stone a creature and then turning it to flash and kill it getting double xp is an other example, flash to stone is the wizard's harm spell as when the creature turns back to flash it has only 1hp. the spell exist in the game so some players use it, even without knowing of the exploit. but as they maybe want to get the loot, that other way is lost, is possible that they then turn it back to flash, as is so easy to kill an enemy with only 1hp. also this is not closed. the easy way to do it imo is to don't give the xp for imprisonment and turning to stone, so who uses those spells loose the loot, like when he uses disintegration, or uses the spell to bring the enemy to 1hp, and get the loot, without getting a kill xp for something that is not a kill, but only when the real kill happens.
    i can think of other examples but now i am really in a hurry, i have to leave my home and i am not sure that i will log in in the next few days. sadly, cause i really like this thread. but i want to see my father, that is 89, and as i have the chance to spend some days with him i don't want to loose it.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,252
    good example with the stone to flesh spell, that's the kind of "problematic" exploit i'm talking about. i think you should only get the experience when you chunk the petrified creature

    hope you have a nice coupla' days off with your dad

  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,838
    All this talk about sucking, and I’m all out of lollipops...

  • Dragonfolk2000Dragonfolk2000 Member Posts: 337
    I used to abuse the heck out of traps. If I knew in advance that a difficult fight was coming I would set up traps, rest, set up more traps, rest, repeat. This was especially bad at higher levels when you got the 'super traps' that had their own separate count on trap limitations. I recall beating Irenicus and the Demogorgon with a ton of spike traps... and it was Haer'Dalis who was setting them. So now I don't do this because it makes the game too easy. There are few enemies or encounters that can reduce or ignore the effects of trapping.

    I also enjoyed the ranger/cleric dual/multiclass exploit that got me both druid and cleric spell options. I never thought that it was a terrible thing and I was sad to see it go. I've always felt that divine spellcasting should be restricted to the caster's diety (instead of a blanket of spell's known that everyone gets) but that is a discussion for another time.

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