Is NWN a ARPG?
Cvijeta
Member Posts: 417
What makes NWN1 so unique? How would you describe NWN besides Heroic fantasy RPG?
I really don't think party-based would be best way to describe the game.
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Modules are different story. There are many of them that are far better then anything Bioware made for NWN. There is no party control, of course, henchmen are controlled by AI that is on the level of mentally retarded lobotomized dead rat. Because, you are not capable of controlling the henchmen, no... Now, really, at that time I assumed they were trying to compete with Diablo 2, hence all that.
As for heroic fantasy, it depends on the module. Some allow it to kill gods, in others you have to kill goblins that killed you favorite sow.
My answer is that it allows for a full party D&D experience unlike any other video game. Yes, full party. The party isn't controlled by a single player, though. That's not how D&D works! The party is composed of multiple players, each controlling his character, with a Dungeon Master who is ever present, tweaking, guiding, roleplaying, and tailoring the adventure to meet up with the players and their characters.
People asking for 'full party control' (and it's fine too, don't get me wrong) are missing out on the real promise of NWN, in my opinion.
It allows you to get together with friends, and play WITH one another, one of you as DM. It encourages team play and individuality at the same time. It reintroduces (or ought to) the element of mystery and the unexpected to the lives of the characters. You aren't pulling the strings: you're living a character! You don't decide what your friend the elf will do: you have to deal with what SHE DOES!
So, to me at least, that is what makes NWN unique. As you can see, I believe party-based is the perfect way to describe it.
-JFK
-JFK
- If i play IWD/BG with a full party, i an playing a tactical RPG
- If i play IWD/BG solo, i an playing diablo!!!
For this people, there are no "non party rpg" that is very tactical like Arcanum or very history rich like Vtmb. If the game puts all DnD rules, but don`t give full party control, he is not different from diablo 2.
Perhaps the 6 beer posting limit rule could be of assistance here.
The problem is, if rule not followed, everybody else needs to have at least 6 beers to understand it.
A good start might be to make a list of "sine qua non" characteristics common to all arpg's, and then ask whether NWN checks items on the list.
1) There is a character skill progression, usually in the form of a skill tree of some sort. The player needs to plan a specialization in one or two of the skills in order to be effective. Play consists of constant repetition of the few skills being developed in a "rotation". Skill points to be spent on the skill tree are few and precious, and players spend a lot of time theory crafting to avoid wasting even a single point, because wasted points can cripple a character in the end game.
2) The game is a loot fest. Over the course of the game, the player will kill thousands of monsters. Almost every one of them "drops" something. Ninety percent of it is junk. Of the last ten percent or so, nine point nine percent of that is "Meh, I guess I can use it until something better drops". That last tenth of a percent or so is a "legendary" or "unique" item which is thrilling to find, like hitting the "jackpot". Players of ARPG's derive a big chunk of their fun from finding these one-in-a-thousand loot drops. Sometimes bosses are "farmed" repetitively because they are known to have a small percent chance to drop a coveted item. All loot is determined by some sort of RNG system.
3) Monsters and bosses respawn in every zone either in periodic instancing, or every time the player logs out. You can repeat and clear out zones as often as you want, and can "farm" for items dropped by specific monsters.
4) There is a fairly linear path through the game content and zones. There are usually at least three progressive "difficulties" with names like "Novice, Veteran, Champion", or "Normal, Cruel, Hell, Nightmare" that must be unlocked by playing the entire game through the first level of difficulty before being able to repeat the game content on the next difficulty level.
The only one of these 4 starting characteristics on the list (we can probably think of and add others as a group) met by NWN is (arguably) no. 1. I don't think NWN qualifies on 2, 3, or 4. I don't think any of the Infinity or Aurora engine or D&D games qualifies, even when played solo. Nothing by Bioware qualifies, even when played solo. A game needs to clearly check all four elements on the list for me to think it's an ARPG.
Another way to consider "What makes a game an ARPG" is definition by example. I know it when I play it, without hesitation. It's a very distinct kind of game.
Examples: Diablo, Titan Quest, Nox, Sacred, the original Divine Divinity, Dungeon Siege, Grim Dawn, Path of Exile, Fate, Torchlight
Yes, most APGs have linear plots, but I don't think they have to.
One of the primary differences is resource management, that is an ARPG allows a character to repeat the same action many times in succession which is often a good strategy. There's never really any need for down time except to sell items and to progress quest dialog, otherwise a character can continue to repeat their attacks. The resource management is found in the short delay and cooldowns, mana runs out eventually but quickly regenerates as does health. The emphasis is placed on the current moment without concern for the next encounter. After you have formed your character's strategy the main focus of play is on pure execution.
An action rpg is an rpg in which combat is commonly the only solution to problems, or in which all paths lead you to combat. Where noncombat solutions are exceptions instead of the rule.
Very few computer rpgs are not action rpgs.
Brevik talking about the moment he switched the game from being turn based and the warrior moved over and hit the skeleton in real time as the birth of the modern ARPG is both magnificent and inspiring.
"Action Role-Play Game" is marketing jargon and doesn't really describe a genre. It is meant to convey the idea to buyers that "This game is an RPG but it's not boring honest!"
And after describing games as "Clones" (Doom Clone, Diablo Clone) fell out of vogue I have been a fan of the term "Loot 'Em Up" to describe Diablo-like games.
In my humble opinion NWN is the furthest thing from being a "Loot 'Em Up." And that's really the root of the issue. "Is NWN more like Diablo or is it like Baldurs Gate."
Well NWN certainly isn't a Loot 'Em Up so Diablo-like is out. And it's a poor imitation of Baldurs Gate...
And I think that's really what this quibble comes down to.
NWN's success came from it's unprecedented multiplayer and the power/accessibility of the toolset. It gave us the ability mold the engine as we saw fit to craft and share our own adventures for decades to come.
However, the the original campaign (IE: The traditional RPG portion of NWN) is so bad that its creators can't tolerate to play it on stream without ripping it to pieces.
That says something right there.
NWN is not an ARPG. It just failed to live up to its legacy.
But we got something far more important and special out of the deal.
ok-- by unique i am going to identify the features which no other mmo has, but which nwn1 has.
1) NWN1 - unique look and feel. I guess every mmo should have a unique atmosphere. But NWN1's atmosphere is particularly special because is captures that era of rpging from 2002. No other mmo can replicate it, because all the artists who crafted the atmosphere have moved on, have changed. This atmosphere should not be changed.
2) NWN1's dm toolset and ability to walk like a god amongst your players, influencing their realm. No other mmo has this. Unless you consider yourself running your own mmo. NWN1 is the only game i know where i can stalk my own players, creating strange voices creatures and events around them, so as to horrbily spook them out. NWN1 is the only game i know of which allows a player to go in and suddenly wonder, is this game haunted? Is there another real human player (dm) around, or am i really alone? Or is the game actually haunted? The forest toolset in particular is suited for spooking players. NWN1 is the only game i know of which can transport players to this completely alter-realm. Other modern mmos have lots of eye candy, which does not reach the dept of NWN1.
3) NWN1's combat mechanics. The level of detail and precision and disclosure of combat formula and mechanics in NWN1 is unparallelled. No other mmo discloses these combat and spell formula to the level of detail nwn1 does. All other mmos fudge it or deliberately conceal it. In all other mmos, you never really know whether or when the game engine or combat formula was changed. NWN1 is the only pvp game which lets you test and see every calculation. I feel this plaes it ahead of LoL and Overwatch (i dont think Overwatch discloses formulas).
There are a few other unique qualities which I can edit in later (eg: voicesets: NWN is almost the ONLY mmo with voicesets).
Just returning to the question of an ARPG. A few years after playing NWN, i began to hanker for the ability to time my moves and combos in nwn. I thought, wouldn't be awesome if I timed the use of my combat feats, or timed the casting of multipole spells, and this created a new effect or a fatality? Of course, i felt the turn-based engine of nwn1 would prevent this. I also played Smite (and also Dynasty Warriors) later where such action or time based combat was a bit enjoyable. In the end, i no longer feel it is necessary for nwn to have this, to make it enjoyable.
TR
um.. just to add to OP's ARPG question--- OP was asking if NWN is a party based game.
I feel NWN's party based features are really good.
NWN has all the features for party based adventuring:
1) Party chat
2) Seeing party members on map
But NWN has more -- you can unfriend party members. You can set them to hostile and your spells and companions will attack them. (just so people know, i feel this can be a weakness for team pvp mod scripts. Leaving a party is a bannable offence in team pvp servers. At least those that use the party scripts to manage teams)
So i think it has all the functionality for party based adventuring that other mmos have.
Im trying to think of the party functionalities for the other mmos ive played. I think NWN's exceeds their feature set.
I agree with @BelgarathMTH 's assessment and would add one more thing: the game is too turn-based. If you could shoot/slash/zap monsters in real time, you may start to have an argument that this is an ARPG.
how do other mmos handle it? without a turn based system of some sort, the players with the least lag will always get in more actions. nwn is very strict about it. but i would guess other mmos have tried to solve it differently?