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Discussion of "Trash" Feats/Spells/Etc

13

Comments

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    Kranyum said:

    But isn't it how pnp works?

    Yes, but the classic argument against changing something that bittervets doesn't like is that NWN was not made to obey DnD rules, it was based on them and thus this issue might have been intentional and it is not a bug.

    Eitherway I need to make it optional...

  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    edited July 4
    Yea of course it's not the same game, but it's precisely my point - they did a poor job adapting the game to real time.

    Plus, turn based is so much better, deeper and more tactical

    I recently tried temple of elemental evil - that game is brilliant

    Post edited by Kranyum on
  • dTddTd Member Posts: 161
    While I'm a fan of turn based BG style, I much prefer NWN style of play to any of those in a computer game. If I were to play PnP then it wouldn't be possible for real time, but this isn't PnP and I love how NWN does it.

    TarotRedhandGM_ODA
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,825
    Kranyum said:

    Shadooow said:

    So, I made a nwnx hack that makes combatant that loses initiative to be flatfooted until he makes attack roll. Therefore rogue that wins initiative can apply sneak/death attack on all attacks in first flurry.

    But I have a feeling this will be considered overpowered balance change by many... It is really big buff towards rogues...

    But isn't it how pnp works?
    Do flurries even exist in pnp? I always thought that was an invention of NWN to squeeze all the attacks of a high level fighter into a single round...

  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    Tresset said:

    Kranyum said:

    Shadooow said:

    So, I made a nwnx hack that makes combatant that loses initiative to be flatfooted until he makes attack roll. Therefore rogue that wins initiative can apply sneak/death attack on all attacks in first flurry.

    But I have a feeling this will be considered overpowered balance change by many... It is really big buff towards rogues...

    But isn't it how pnp works?
    Do flurries even exist in pnp? I always thought that was an invention of NWN to squeeze all the attacks of a high level fighter into a single round...
    To my knowledge you apply all your attacks when your turn comes. This is where winning an initiative roll is so important. As a rogue you could potentially apply 3-5 sneak attacks before the enemy stops being flatfooted

    TressetdTdDerpCity
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 539
    Flurries don't exist but there are some key differences which affect the bonuses characters have, the damage and when it applies and when it doesn't, how you are able to stealth and when someone can see you, etc etc etc.

    You also only apply all of your attacks when you choose to take the full attack option, and given other considerations that could be lower.

    In many cases the first attack is most important otherwise characters have more defenses to deny sneak attack when they know a rogue is in combat, this includes if the rogue is technically invisible. So as with backstab the rogue has a devastating opening move which is less effective later on in the fight. NWN handles this as giving the rogue a minimum of their first flurry in sneak attacks in any situation that triggers a sneak attack, which is more sneak attacks on average than they would normally get but fewer than they would at the start of combat.

    Another use of winning initiative is to charge the opponent so that you can close the distance and attack before they are able to get an attack of opportunity. This is because flat footed characters don't get attacks of opportunity and a character is flat footed until their first turn in combat.

    Overall the 3.0/3.5 rules are extremely complicated when you consider them as a whole and NWN is just an approximation of those rules because it would take an ungodly amount of time to simulate the entire system accurately.

    DerpCity
  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    Most dnd fans I think want the full complexity, otherwise we'd be playing path of exile instead

    ShadooowGrymlorde
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 539
    It's just too much work for one or two ppl to do. No project has ever done more than scratch the surface as far as a complete implementation of the system. They usually focus on fixing one or two aspects that already have an implementation in the game.

  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 254
    edited July 5
    @Kranyum I'm not exactly a D&D fan. I occasionally read the 3.5 rules and base many of the things I do outside my specific module off of them, for example reworks to stats on summons, animal companions, or familiars, or changing how some spells work that I like how they work in PnP better, but I have literally no background in actually playing D&D. Considering the few friends I have who play D&D in real life play 5e, I have even less knowledge of how modern D&D is played due to not knowing the current ruleset. Despite that, NWN is still my literal favorite game. To me, NWN isn't a game just for D&D fans, it's a product that everyone can enjoy. If you want to play a game that's near exact to PnP D&D, then in my opinion you should just play PnP.

    Also, to my knowledge Path of Exile doesn't come with a map editor, which is one of NWN's greatest appeals, an appeal that NWN would have died a long time ago if it didn't have it. That, and I dislike playing MMO's in general, and I only play NWN, or any game for that matter, multiplayer with my friends or family. Otherwise I'm playing it singleplayer.

    Post edited by DerpCity on
    ProontdTdGM_ODA
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 539
    There are very few modules that implement their own game system using NWN or NWN2. Otherwise neither game is distinct or from D&D as they are both implementations of the D&D 3rd edition and d20 rules set. By understanding the rules you have a better understanding of what was intended and how things break down when they're not properly implemented. If we don't understand the original intended design then any tweaking is simply shooting in the dark. Likewise wishing a faithful implementation is a valid desire and they shouldn't just play table top D&D if they want a faithful implementation of 3.0/3.5 rules in NWN. It's just a lot of work that requires re-implementing most of the rules.

    By analogy taking a knife and removing a chunk out of a painting you are not necessarily creating an original work, you are simply defacing an original work and at best you are remixing it. It helps to know what the original work looked like to provide context to what you're seeing or trying to express.

    DerpCityProont
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    DerpCity said:

    @Kranyum I'm not exactly a D&D fan. I occasionally read the 3.5 rules and base many of the things I do outside my specific module off of them, for example reworks to stats on summons, animal companions, or familiars, or changing how some spells work that I like how they work in PnP better, but I have literally no background in actually playing D&D. Considering the few friends I have who play D&D in real life play 5e, I have even less knowledge of how modern D&D is played due to not knowing the current ruleset.

    This apply for me as well, still when building modules I often ran into balance/design issues with NWN homebrew content.

    parry useless, certain spells such as healing circle (okay not homebrew but 3.0 remnant), druid being weak, too limited spell selection for druids and also clerics (cantrips/orisons especially), rogue weak at higher levels, bard overpowered as hell on higher levels, RDD/PM overpowered with melee classes and weak with casting classes, not enough creativity with combat

    all these issues are caused because of bioware decided to make homebrew changes and ever since I realized it and found out source for DnD ruleset 3.5 I wass trying to adapt NWN towards it. (There is 3.5 ruleset mod however that is not using nwnx and thus is only halfway right, and I don't like compromises)

    That doesn't mean that everything in my opinion MUST work as described in DnD. Sure they might be builders who will like some 3.5 features such as multiclass restrictions, however it is important to keep in mind that this game is CRPG and the main intent here is, in my opinion at least, do it enjoyable and adjust some rules to be more hack&slash. Therefore when implementing DnD rules features into NWN one has to be patient and observe that changes effects. Also not everything needs to be changed, for example I think discipline is successful homebrew skill.

    In my module I implemented some of the 3.5 spells that doesn't exist in NWN, reworked class spell lists, enabled DnD rules for improved uncany dodge (uncanny dodge 2 - which on my suggestion was added into NWN:EE already), DnD rules for evasion/improved evasion and recently initiative and I must say that all these changes made the game much more rich and automatically fixed some of the issues I mentioned at the start of this post. Because of that, I believe that implementing 3.5 rules (but smartly) is beneficial to the NWN despite it is not a table top game.

    pscytheDerpCitydTdTresset
  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 254
    edited July 6
    I don't really know why I let the statement at the end of the first paragraph of my last post get through, but after rereading it it's definitely a lot more harsh than I intended, and was rather hypocritical of me to say at all considering the fact I mod the game into what I want it to be all the time, which I even indicate at the start of the paragraph, so I apologize for sounding like I was saying that people modding the game to be closer to 3.5 was a waste of time, even if it isn't something I'm very interested in seeing.

    @FreshLemonBun As I said, I've looked over the 3.5 rules occasionally, usually for the base stats of a monster if I'm trying to rework a summon of some kind, or if there's a spell that I want to change and want to see if it works way better with 3.5's rules on the matter - thus I definitely agree that 3.5 rules are a good thing to search through for guidance. However, we then have something like the Blackguard's completely homebrewed summons for NWN. Let's say I think one of them is overpowered while the other is underpowered, which I do in the case of the setting I play in; the only summon the Blackguard gets in PnP is the Fiendish Servant, which isn't nearly as cool as the Undead or Fiend, so the core rules aren't useful here. Similarly, I dislike NWN's system for Animal Companions, but I also dislike 3.5's rules for animal companions; thus, "shooting in the dark," as you say, is necessary; which, of course, means it'll take some testing to iron out, which isn't a problem from my perspective.

    @Shadooow I can't really say I disagree with anything you've said on the modding aspect of your post, especially considering you take the time to analyze if something needs to, or how much it needs to, be converted over to 3.5 rules, and then actually test it. My only disagreement with your post is your statement that druid's are weak, though admittedly I play with modded animal companions that have more AC at the cost of their power (in most some cases... dire wolf, why must your PnP stats be so strong whilst not having a weaker equivalent that didn't already take up a slot like the brown bear did?!) to make them seem less like throw-away summons and more like companions that can get themselves through a battle and be of real assistance through not being dead, and when playing with my family on our private server is pre-epic with low-magic items, meaning casters are buffed overall (though granted resting has an 8 in game hour cooldown), so my perspective is definitely skewed in that regard.

    dTd
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    edited July 6
    DerpCity said:

    My only disagreement with your post is your statement that druid's are weak.

    This is a bit overstatement I know, likewise rogues aren't bad at lower levels at least...

    Druids can be strong, animals aren't that bad in most low level/low magic settings, he has few offensive AOE spells so he can kill some stuff and dragon shape is very strong. So druid is actually playable, however often only because some "exploits" (such as stacking AOE spells, stacked creeping doom can oneshot boss with 10000 hp and 50/dmg reduction if used properly, or running around stacked fire wall, stacking web/entangle/bewilderment cloud for perma crown controll... and overally "abusing" 1monk lvl synergy) and basically you see all players to do same build, use same spells and tactics (at epic levels there is usually just one tactic - stack a lot of regenerations on self and then shapechange into dragon and spam the dragon breath).

    There are some of the issues I think druid suffers:
    1) basic animal shape is quite weak, there is no reason to use it, better use companions as meat shield and support them with offensive spells or ranged weapons
    2) not a big selection of useful spells, basically every single player will end up with identical spell list
    3) sunbeam should be lvl 7 spell (this is fixed in community patch)
    4) animal companions are weak, only bear is good and they become very useless at epic levels compared to usual NPCs you encounter on such levels
    5) no good one-handed magic staffs for druid
    6) usage of companions which is druid quite reliant of is often penalized by XP gain
    7) druid shapes aren't merging "items" + the loss of spellslots when polymorphing (not 100% sure it was fixed in NWN:EE yet)
    8) some of the druid shapes are ignoring weapon feats (unarmed) and druid doesn't have a choice to take weapon feats for creature weapons

    With these issues fixed druid is amazing character. BTW, am I correct that 3.5 druid shapechange restore hitpoints to full? I didn't implement this myself, seemed quite overpowered...

    DerpCityKranyumdTd
  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    edited July 6
    Yeah I never understood the point of shape-shifting when you lose most of the benefits from your gear, you end up hitting people unarmed, can't cast spells and then also lose your extra spell slots. It'sa noob-trap travesty

    Tresset
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,825
    That is why I don't shapeshift much as a druid. At least not until I get to a good level and Owl's Insight can prevent the loss of bonus spells granted by equipment wisdom boosts. Despite the problems it has, Shifter is one of my favorite classes.

    Proont
  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    Definitely but since we are in the shit feats and spells thread, one of the points worth making is that a lot of things in the game are noob-traps which doesn't sit well with me.

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    edited July 6
    Kranyum said:

    Definitely but since we are in the shit feats and spells thread, one of the points worth making is that a lot of things in the game are noob-traps which doesn't sit well with me.

    Almost all those issues can be fixed easily with custom content, though I didn't dare to do it in community patch because many builders would consider it as unwanted balance change. And I suppose we cannot expect BeamDog will do such changes either... It is a community problem. Those who are running PWs are dictating others how to play the game.

    Anyway, community patch allows to globally improve polymorphing but it is not enabled automatically. If you use 1.72 then you can spawn PC Widget Tool (turn on DebugMode, then use console command dm_spawnitem 70_pcwidget) after activating it offers several ruleset choices you can apply for all singleplayer modules you play (or for the multiplayer module you work on).

    the choices for polymorphing are:
    71_POLYMORPH_STACK_MERGE_BONUSES - this will stack bonuses to same ability, saving throw or skill, in vanilla highest bonus from all merged items apply
    71_POLYMORPH_MERGE_ARMS - this will enable to merge itemproperties from gloves/bracer slot, which is ignored in vanilla
    72_POLYMORPH_MERGE_EVERYTHING - this will make all shapes merge all items, not just druid shapes but shapes from spells as well (polymorph self, tenser, shapechange)

    alternatively you can controll which shape merges what in polymorph.2da file, my personal selection is to stack merge bonuses, merge arms and then direct change in polymorph.2da to merge everything for all druid and shifter shapes but not spell-related shapes.

    Tresset
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 539
    Of course changes to the basic rules has a ripple effect on the relative power of mechanics like summoning and shape shifting. It's not always obvious so it helps to know what to consider by having a strong understanding of the source material.

  • KranyumKranyum Member Posts: 29
    Perhaps mods can fix stuff but honestly if I'm to buy this game I'm expecting beamdog to add some worthy changes that will enhance my single player experience.

    I may not be the majority here but these changes would excite me

    BelgarathMTHRifleLeroy
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    edited July 6
    Kranyum said:

    Perhaps mods can fix stuff but honestly if I'm to buy this game I'm expecting beamdog to add some worthy changes that will enhance my single player experience.

    I may not be the majority here but these changes would excite me

    I totally agree however as I said we are hostages of Persistent World builders (+Proleric the singleplayer module developer who wants to have full controll over how player plays his modules). Because of them nothing that would alter balance could be added into core game automatically. It will always have to be optional because they don't want those changes and they don't want to be forced to make changes into module to disable them.

    Sorry for offtopic rant, but I after dealing with these peoples with work of my own, it is sad they have influence on BeamDog as well and they are controlling how the NWN will look like. I suppose we can be glad we can enable some rule modifications already such as sticky combat modes. Still I strongly believe that it should be the opposite and these features should be enabled automatically, with possibility to turn them off for PW owners who want players to feel the vanilla NWN without anything that improves game.

    tl'dr this is a community issue

  • dTddTd Member Posts: 161
    I don't want to jump in to defend anyone here but isn't it more for backwards compatibility than what PW developers want? I'm a PW developer myself and I don't have the issues with the changes as long as they're switchable. I'm also very vocal, here and on discord so I have to disagree with the standpoint that PWs are controlling how players play nwnee in any way but on their own PW.

  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 254
    edited July 6
    Frun fact, Beamdog actually made it so you don't have to reset your spells when you polymorph. You still lose the spells, but they don't have to be reset when you rest. This is particularly useful when town guards on a certain prviate PW get salty about people holding weapons in town during the day) so animal shape lets me go through town without having to take off my wisdom boosting scimitar and lose my spell slots. So it does have a use for me, just very combat related.
    Shadooow said:

    Sorry for offtopic again, maybe we should continue on this matter elsewhere...

    Don't worry about it, I don't particularly mind that my thread's been derailed away from it's original intent as long a thoughtful discussion is taking place.

    Post edited by DerpCity on
    dTd
  • dTddTd Member Posts: 161
    edited July 6
    Shadooow said:

    No, changes like sticky combat modes are not going to be problem. (all pro NWN players use mouse! >:) )

    Well in fact I wasn't talking about sticky combat modes at all since we already have them, and they are switchable as I think almost all features should be which allow module builders choice in how their designs are made.

    Now though, thinking about this, I'm all for adding in an expertise check to improved initiative which disables it when the players loses the initiative check for the first round making it no longer a trash feat and actually worth taking. I know, one thousand lashes because it's not PnP and I couldn't care less if it is or not.

    How about they make it so w a s d movement provides an action queue like mouse movement, you know so you aren't flat footed when using them?

    /Ariel

  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    you aren't flatfooted when moving via keyboard, it is just canceling the combat modes without the new switch...

  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 254
    @Shadooow Perhaps this is wrong on the NWNWiki's part or I'm misinterpreting it, but according to their page here:

    "The keyboard can also be used for movement (WASD, by default), creating a quick sequence of move actions as keys are held down. (As a result, characters tend to be flat-footed as they are between move actions as often as they are in one.) For keyboard movement, the SHIFT key does not control running/walking; instead, a second key can be assigned the "walk forward" command. In addition, keyboard navigation allows side-stepping."

    Again, I might be misinterpreting it or they might be wrong, but it seems to be that you're flatfooted sometimes while moving with the keyboard.

    dTd
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 539
    I don't think that persistent worlds are holding anyone hostage. In fact they mod their rules extensively and many have sticky combat modes though they do not use Shadooow's patch. I think the issue is that you will upset the players that did not sign up for a game closer to D&D or some other concept. They may actually like the broken aspects of things like bonus damage multiplying with critical hits and facepalm "tactics" of 40 IGMS cast in about 3 minutes with no save.

    Some individual modders might complain but I think it's just frustrating when a server isn't good enough to implement basic features like sticky combat modes which have been around for years before NWN EE was even announced.

    I can also see it being quite frustrating if you wake up one day and you have to edit a thousand scripts because Beamdog decided to redesign/reimplement many existing game features to create a new experience. Beamdog already has a problem on it's hands which is not discussed enough in that still roughly half of the existing community for NWN has yet to purchase NWN EE despite that pretty much everyone that was still active has known about it since November. I don't think it would be in their best interests in any way if they were to commit to reiterating on gameplay content that has been considered final for the last 15 years.

    I think it is definitely in their best interest to move the game forward with new content and new gameplay features as well as improving the capabilities of modding so that it becomes easier to do things and no longer requires NWN:EE-incompatible software to provide the best NWN experience.

    If they change the gameplay one way to please someone's tastes, then someone else will come along who wants them to change it back. That's why modding is the favored method by the community to change the game to suit your personal tastes.

    ShadooowGrymlordedTdGM_ODA
  • ShadooowShadooow Member Posts: 273
    edited July 8
    DerpCity said:

    "The keyboard can also be used for movement (WASD, by default), creating a quick sequence of move actions as keys are held down. (As a result, characters tend to be flat-footed as they are between move actions as often as they are in one.) For keyboard movement, the SHIFT key does not control running/walking; instead, a second key can be assigned the "walk forward" command. In addition, keyboard navigation allows side-stepping."

    This is confusing and hard to understand. Afaik, as long as you are holding the movement keys W/S/A/D you aren't flatfooted (even if you are stuck by obstacle). However, because of the little precision of this style of movement, player is not holding these keys all the time and the moment you stop, you are flatfooted unless you add another action such as attack. Moving via mouse would have same problem however, since most players are clicking in front of them rather than holding mouse button and leading character along, they can chain the movement commands and keep character moving without stopping for a second. So maybe that is what nwn wiki means, though to me - if you aren't holding keys for moving you aren't moving and therefore I don't think the statement is valid and I also don't see a way how to fix being flatfooted "while moving" when that happens when you stop moving... It is contradiction.

  • dTddTd Member Posts: 161
    It happens because key presses even while holding the keys aren't constant, they are still a series of presses, so half of the time you are "clicking/pressing" and half of the time you aren't while holding the key down.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,825
    Hardly a trash feat, but sometimes I wonder about Lasting Inspiration... I mean, a bard song that lasts 10 turns sounds really good on paper, but in practice I wonder if it may actually be better to have it last for a shorter duration so it can be reapplied to grant more bonus HP more frequently or to do damage more often in the case of Curse Song. What are everyone's thoughts on this? Is Lasting Inspiration worth it or not?

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