Discussion of "Trash" Feats/Spells/Etc
DerpCity
Member, Moderator Posts: 303
So I decided, after a small tangent in the Community discussion threat, to make this here. For anyone who wants to, I'd like to hear some discussion about what feats, spells, etc that you all find as particularly poor decisions to take. It doesn't necessarily need to be unusable or bad, it could just be overshadowed by other options that are simply better. If possible, I'd also like to hear how you all would see these bad options fixed. I don't want to hear "remove them," but to be honest I don't think anyone would care to see Dirty Fighting go.
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Comments
In order to fix Dirty Fighting, I think it should be re-purposed a bit. I actually like the idea of losing all of your attacks per round, believe it or not, but I don't think a tiny damage boost is going to be that helpful. Instead, I think it would be okay for it to guarantee that you hit your opponent. You still have to roll in order to be able to crit the enemy, of course, but I feel it would be a decent tradeoff. However, I wouldn't want this to be exploitable early levels, so I'd probably up its AB requirement to 6 BAB, so you at least have to lose out on damage before it becomes useful.
This may not be the most balanced solution, as it technically removes the whole point of AB, but I can't really think of anything else that would work well with the whole "removes most of your attacks per round" gimmick.
I’d rework it all together. Maybe instead of causing someone to lose their extra attacks, it causes a stat effect, like a short duration blindness, daze, or slow on critical instead of the bonus damage a critical hit usually gives. Something that can be situationally useful at all levels but with a trade off that makes it not always a clear choice.
Anyway, any feat that improves initiative is pretty much worthless. Circle Kick is apparently another bad one, even though it looks good on paper.
They only exist as prerequisites for Automatic X spell III and require you to know level 9 spells to begin with so you are burning two feats to gain nothing from them.
I get wanting the rank full ability to automatically use a meta magic feat to cost 3 feats and stagger spell progression through epic levels... but give people something for it. Even if it's just a tiny +1 bonus to spell save DC.
I don't like to open my character sheet and say to myself "Well that was utterly worthless" and the automatic metamagic feats always make me a tad resentful.
Lets start with Ironguts... probably one of the worst spells in the game. WAY too situational to be of any real use unless you are in a spiders-are-the-only-enemy type module. Stone Bones is another kinda dumb one, unless you are a Pale Master. Ice Dagger is pretty much outclassed by Burning Hands. Negative Energy Ray is outclassed by most other damage spells, especially Magic Missile, and is really best used to heal undead allies. Tasha's Hideous Laughter is pretty dumb because of the save bonus it almost always gives and is thoroughly outclassed by most other spells. Charm spells don't do much. Legend Lore is outclassed by Identify, ironically (unless you can't expect to pause, that is). Great Thunderclap is embarrassingly bad for a level 7 spell due to it's extremely short duration. Blackstaff is pretty dumb. Mass Blindness/Deafness is ok, until you notice that it is outclassed by Sunburst.
You know how when you get an attack of opportunity, you attack someone else and then switch back to your main target? Imagine that, but without that last part. Circle kick causes you to spread out your damage across multiple targets instead of just letting you focus the guy you want dead. In situations where there's lots of enemies that are letting you get attacks of opportunity, circle kick on top of that can make it nearly impossible to use knockdown on a key target. At least, in my experience.
I pretty much agree with most of your trash spell choices, though I honestly never take Burning Hands over Magic Missile. I always have a Summon Creature and my Familiar summoned (Unless I have a henchman, in which case I forego the summon), so crowd control isn't usually an issue. Though Negative Energy Ray isn't bad for necromancers, as you said, and since IIRC its a wizard's only real option for healing his undead effectively I think it definitely has a purpose beyond being a trash spell. Besides, when enemies fail their will save it does the best damage of any 1st level spell... I think. Too lazy to double check.
@voidofopinion I don't really see an issue with having the earlier versions of the Automatic line of spells. Its the same with Improved Combat Casting, Epic Damage Reduction, Epic Energy Resistance, and Superior Initiative. Considering Automatic Quicken Spell III is incredibly powerful, I would certainly hope you had to build up to it. Besides, the feats are only "useless" if you're starting off at the level you get their final versions, considering they still function. If I have 20 fireballs lined up (exaggerated amount, but still), I'd definitely rather have Automatic Quicken Spell I than no Automatic Quicken Spell at all.
Negative Energy Ray is basically the same as Magic Missile only it has a save for half. They both progress in damage output at the same levels but Negative Energy Ray does 1d6 per two levels after level 1 while Magic Missile does 1d4+1 per two levels after level 1. Effectively the same.
As far as summons go, I usually prefer blasting things myself to calling help to kill stuff for me, but that is just my preference.
If you are curious about which spells I do tend to pick you should check out this thread.
Didn't realize the average damage was the same, my bad. However, keep in mind, of course, that in a module where you can get Magic Damage Resistance, even merely 5 resistance completely nullifies Magic Missile, while would only be reduced by 5 damage if you had -5 to Negative Energy. Few modules actually have an item with -5/magic, though, so in most cases Magic Missile is strictly better.
I don't really call them so they can kill for me, though that is a benefit. Rather, I just call things to tank for me while still being fully buffed myself, and I always keep my familiar/animal companion out for personal roleplay reasons, even in single player, so to each their own.
if the game decides to work at all.@Tresset No harm done. I'm on the fence about the XP penalty for familiars/companions, given how my own modifications to them bring them somewhat up to par with player characters, treating them as player characters with benefits as they level. Summons are severely understatted for what they are though (17 strength 11 constitution dire boar when they're supposed to have 27 strength and 17 con, and IIRC they're supposed to be the 3rd level summon instead of the dire wolf...), so I feel they probably shouldn't count toward EXP.
However, that does not stop it from being poor design and even worse balance.
Automatic Still Spell and Automatic Extend Spell take 3 feats and are under powered for it.
Auto Still Spell is 3 feats for something clerics get for free at level 1 (because 3e Clerics are OP) and the available armor in base NWN/SoU/HotU is not exactly 3 feats worthy.
And by epic levels spell duration is a non issue. Everything either lasts an insane amount of time or you have enough spell slots for it to not matter besides 1 or 2 fringe cases.
Automatic Maximize is ok.
Automatic Empower and Quicken could be called OP.
The power difference between Automatic Still Spell and Automatic Quicken is huge... And both waste 2 feats to get that 3rd ability.
It's a pet peeve I have about 3/3.5e that is exacerbated by the limited Armor/Spells available on NWN.
When you have a near unlimited number of Spells/Armor then all the metamagic feats make sense. But within the limits of NWN there is a very obvious difference in power.
Virtue
Gain 1hp, temporary
lol
Although, guess it would be useful against.....
Dirty fighting!
How about Earthquake? It is a really high level spell for how low the damage cap is...
Same goes for the majority of the early game "first level only" kind of feats - you know, like Strong Soul, Artist, Snake Blood, etc. They aren't worth wasting a feat unless you're human and have an extra one.
Considering my mention of throwing weapons, is there any reason to use Shurikens? They deal the least damage and require Exotic to use, while Darts and Throwing Axes (which I didn't know had standard 2x crits rather than the 3x other axes have, that's weird) require martial at most and have better base damage. Granted, all throwing weapons weigh a metric ton when used in large quantities, which turns at least me off from them compared to most weapons.