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Any "non melee" ways to deal with spell immune creatures in IWD?

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Comments

  • SirBatinceSirBatince Member Posts: 746

    Can anyone confirm if Mordy's Sword indeed works against Belhifet? NearInfinity shows that it hits as a +5 weapon. (I never went upto that much of the game myself yet, but I'll like to use it if it works. ;))

    Besides, as it appears in NI, Mordy's sword is immune to many status effects (including Poison, Disease and Fear and most Mind-affecting spell-effects). How about casting Protection From Fire (the Level 3 Wizard version, not the Cleric one) on a bunch of those swords and see if they work against the bad boy? ;)

    M Sword is a useable weapon in IWD, rather than a overpowered summon like in BG2.

  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    ThacoBell said:

    @SomeSort This is the kind of thing I was talking about.

    Yes, and a lot of those additional immunities were added in the Heart of Winter expansion to make up for the fact that you're getting a zillion extra levels and some super-OP gear from Lonelywood. Heart of Winter broke the balance of vanilla IWD the same way Throne of Bhaal broke the balance of vanilla SoA.

    But original, vanilla, straight-out-of-the-box IWD was not like this. This can be confirmed by reading some old pre-expansion faqs. Example 1: "Belhifet in my opinion is much easier than Yxunomei; though the dialogue box says that Belhifet has magic resistance, he easily succumbs to a barrage of magic missiles and magic stones. Just take his attention away from your party with whatever you summon and you'll be fine."

    Example 2: "An high-level Chromatic Orb can Hold or Stun Belhifet... if it penetrates Belhifet's Magic Resistance and saving throw. While Belhifet's Held/Stunned, Belhifet obviously can't attack, cast spells, or teleport. The party can attack and cast enough low- to medium-level offensive spells (Acid Arrow, Chromatic Orb, Flame Arrow, Ice Lance, Magic Missile, Magic Stone, &c) to destroy Belhifet before Belhifet becomes mobile again!"

    Heart of Winter did a lot of stuff to ruin the tight balance of Icewind Dale. Heart of Fury mode was a joke that supercharged level gains. When you first went to Lonelywood you were gifted with over 400,000 XP before you ever had to fight a single enemy. Having a level cap instead of an experience cap broke multiclass characters. Other than giving bards some worthwhile songs for a change, Heart of Winter contributed pretty much nothing to the game.

    Judging the balance of IWD based on changes made by Heart of Winter is like saying Shadows of Amn's final boss is a joke because Planetars, Spike Traps, and Greater Whirlwind Attacks tear him to shreds.

    (Similarly, IWD's balance definitely shouldn't be judged based on how it performs in the Enhanced Edition. Some of the best spells have been nerfed- Haste used to double your APR- fighter classes have gotten heavily buffed by the addition of true dual-wielding, sorcerors defeat the entire purpose of scroll scarcity, the game was never built with kits in mind, etc.)

    Rik_Kirtaniyasemiticgod
  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,142
    edited May 18

    Can anyone confirm if Mordy's Sword indeed works against Belhifet? NearInfinity shows that it hits as a +5 weapon. (I never went upto that much of the game myself yet, but I'll like to use it if it works. ;))

    Besides, as it appears in NI, Mordy's sword is immune to many status effects (including Poison, Disease and Fear and most Mind-affecting spell-effects). How about casting Protection From Fire (the Level 3 Wizard version, not the Cleric one) on a bunch of those swords and see if they work against the bad boy? ;)

    M Sword is a useable weapon in IWD, rather than a overpowered summon like in BG2.
    @SirBatince But the summoned Mordy's sword is wielding this same weapon as well. I checked it in EEKeeper and NearInfinity.

    Realized what you meant when I finally tried that spell in IWD a few days ago. :D

    Post edited by Rik_Kirtaniya on
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,707
    @SomeSort I most certainly can judge a game based on its most up-to-date iteration. That is the supported version.

    semiticgod
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    ThacoBell said:

    @SomeSort I most certainly can judge a game based on its most up-to-date iteration. That is the supported version.

    I'm sorry. I love Beamdog, I love the fact that they have brought these classic games to new operating systems (and especially to mobile!), and I love how they've reinvigorated the community. But IWDEE is not IWD. Icewind Dale didn't have Sorcerors or Undead Hunters or Archers or Skalds or dual-wielding speed weapons or Time Stop or Spell Trigger or whatever wimpy versions of Haste and Tenser's Transformation it wound up with. And if those additions and changes broke the balance of the original game, that shouldn't be held against the original.

    As someone who has logged dozens of playthroughs on the original (both with and without HoW), I consider IWDEE to be a really, really polished mod. And a fun one, at that-- I enjoy being able to take Sorcerors and Undead Hunters and Archers and Skalds out to the Spine of the World. But I'd no more blame IWD for any balance issues with IWDEE than I would blame BG2 for any balance issues with Weimer's Item Upgrade mod.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 609
    edited April 15
    SomeSort said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @SomeSort I most certainly can judge a game based on its most up-to-date iteration. That is the supported version.

    I'm sorry. I love Beamdog, I love the fact that they have brought these classic games to new operating systems (and especially to mobile!), and I love how they've reinvigorated the community. But IWDEE is not IWD.
    I agree, I like both games, but IWDEE certainly doesn't play like IWD. I wouldn't call it a "most up-to date iteration", it's just a different version, with the EE being much easier.

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 1,941
    edited May 18

    [Does Improved Haste give 10 APR with MMM?]

    It does!

    Edit: This also means that any extra damage effects are especially useful with MMMs. For example, if you're using Improved Haste, Emotion: Hope, Emotion: Courage, Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, and the Girdle of Beatification, then MMMs do 10 * (1d4 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 1) = 135 average physical damage plus 30 fire damage per round. They're great.

    Rik_Kirtaniyasemiticgod
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,707
    @SomeSort Sorry, but IWDEE is officially Icewind Dale and the only version currently supported and getting updates. If you choose to play an outdated version for the sake of nostalgia, that is entirely your choice. Its not on me that you don't play the supported version and arbitraily choose to leave t out of discussion.

  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    ThacoBell said:

    @SomeSort Sorry, but IWDEE is officially Icewind Dale and the only version currently supported and getting updates. If you choose to play an outdated version for the sake of nostalgia, that is entirely your choice. Its not on me that you don't play the supported version and arbitraily choose to leave t out of discussion.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icewind_Dale:_Enhanced_Edition
    Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition is a remake of the Black Isle Studios 2000 role-playing video game Icewind Dale and its expansions Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter and Trials of the Luremaster. (emphasis mine)

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/remake
    Noun
    remake (plural remakes)
    1. A new version of something.
    2. A new, especially updated, version of a film, video game, etc.

    Aside: If Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition was "officially Icewind Dale", then why isn't it called Icewind Dale? The fact that it has a new name sort of suggests that it's a new thing, right? (The fact that its name is so similar suggests that the new thing is similar to the old thing.)

    And if being the only version currently supported and getting updates somehow mattered, then is one only allowed to judge Dungeon Keeper, the delightful 1997 computer strategy game with an average user rating of 8.8, based on Dungeon Keeper, the awful 2014 mobile "remake" / skinner box / microtransaction magnet with an average user rating of 0.3?

    Or is it possible that games can be judged on their original merits and not just those of whatever close relative has the most recent release date?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,707
    @SomeSort Sorry buddy. But its not a remake, its an update. Nothing was remade, it uses the same engine with updates.

  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,142
    edited May 19

    I think something like Chain Contingency: Summon Fiend x 3, followed by Haste or Improved Haste would work nicely, though I'll have to try it in order to see how it goes. It should work nicely, I believe. (Don't forget to cast Protection from Evil!)

    Logically, 6 Hasted Glabrezus (3 summoned from a Chain Contingency, followed by 3 more cast from the memorized slots; 6 is the maximum limit, I guess?) having 6 APR with 3d4+STR bonus (7, I guess?) damage, will do 36 x (3d4 + 7) damage per round (Max = 684 damage, Min = 360). Belhifet has 350 HP in normal mode. So, I guess, it's a matter of 2 to 3 rounds? ;) (A little longer in HoF, of course.)

    Well everyone, I tried doing this, and all I can say is, DON'T DO THIS! Summoning more than one Glabrezus makes those nitwits attack each other instead of attacking Belhifet and his Golems, and summoning only one Glabrezu makes no sense because it takes only 2-3 hits for Belhifet to finish it. :D

    I'm trying the Iron Golem form now. Let's see how it works.

    EDIT: 1 APR and inability to cast spells in Iron Golem form makes this totally non-viable. Besides, it appears that IRON GOLEM FORM IS BUGGED! The description shows Iron Golem form has "Immunity to Poison, Disease and Cloudkill" (all of which are used against you in the final battle), but it is immune to NONE of them. It gets killed so easily.

    Please fix the immunities.

    So the conclusion is, stick to PFMW, Haste/Improved Haste, Black Blade of Disaster, and Time Stop. Go melee, hit hard, and keep casting Time Stops before the previous one runs out. And don't move around, cause Dispel Traps are scattered all over the ground, and they will dispel Black Blade of Disaster, and without it, a solo Sorcerer/Mage is as good as dead. This seems to be the ONLY way for a solo mage/sorcerer. :/ [Has anybody defeated Belhifet with a solo mage/sorcerer by any other method?]

    By the way, here's Belhifet lying dead at the foot of my solo Dragon Disciple. Had to take this shot very quickly.

    I feel there should have been more ways to deal with him when using an arcane-magic-based class. That ring (BRING.ITM) is the root of all mischief. (As it unfairly makes him immune to all level 1-9 spells). Maybe removing immunity to level 8-9 spells would have been fairer? And that could be compensated by adding some other resistances (like Demogorgon and others have). A flat all-spell-levels immunity makes the final boss fight so straightforward and one-way. :/ What does everyone think? Shouldn't this be amended? For the sake of "the Balance"? ;)

    @CamDawg, @JuliusBorisov Would you like to give this a thought? Please? :smile:

    Post edited by Rik_Kirtaniya on
    StummvonBordwehr
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,325

    Besides, it appears that IRON GOLEM FORM IS BUGGED! The description shows Iron Golem form has "Immunity to Poison, Disease and Cloudkill" (all of which are used against you in the final battle), but it is immune to NONE of them. It gets killed so easily.

    The immunities are functional, it's just the portrait icons that get through.

  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,142
    kjeron said:

    Besides, it appears that IRON GOLEM FORM IS BUGGED! The description shows Iron Golem form has "Immunity to Poison, Disease and Cloudkill" (all of which are used against you in the final battle), but it is immune to NONE of them. It gets killed so easily.

    The immunities are functional, it's just the portrait icons that get through.

    Not practically. Even in Iron Golem form, my character is taking poison damage from Cloudkill and Belhifet's weapons. Anyways, it should be fixed.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,341

    this is strange, but it appears that Belhifet is immune to weapons only up to +2 enchantment.

    Does that mean anything having +3 or higher enchantment can hit him? If that is so, there are just SO MANY things that can hit him! It is sooooooo funny! :D A creature having virtually complete immunity against any direct spells cast on him is vulnerable to weapons with just +3 enchantment?

    Canonically, +2 are all you need to hit almost anything in AD&D. "Immunity to low/no-enchantment weapons" is not really a game mechanic that was used much. Even the Mantle spells were an invention of BG2 IIRC. So it's not a great point of comparison. (IWD in particular was more faithful to pen-and-paper AD&D in all its unbalanced glory, than BG2 was.)

  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,142

    this is strange, but it appears that Belhifet is immune to weapons only up to +2 enchantment.

    Does that mean anything having +3 or higher enchantment can hit him? If that is so, there are just SO MANY things that can hit him! It is sooooooo funny! :D A creature having virtually complete immunity against any direct spells cast on him is vulnerable to weapons with just +3 enchantment?

    Canonically, +2 are all you need to hit almost anything in AD&D. "Immunity to low/no-enchantment weapons" is not really a game mechanic that was used much. Even the Mantle spells were an invention of BG2 IIRC. So it's not a great point of comparison. (IWD in particular was more faithful to pen-and-paper AD&D in all its unbalanced glory, than BG2 was.)
    Yet, it is something that makes it too easy for Fighter type classes, and too hard (though not impossible) for Mage type classes. ;) Isn't that unbalanced?

    I think a Cavalier (who has innate immunities to both poison and disease) with decent physical damage resistance and APR with Girdle of Labelas, Oil of Speed and Ring of Reckless Action can finish off Belhifet much more easily than any other solo "single" class. (Maybe Dwarven Defender is nearly as easy, but are there any items that provide immunity to poison and disease? Anyways, with a lot of Mummy's Tea and Antidotes, it can be quite easy for other single-classed fighter type characters.)

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,325
    It stops Belhifet's attacks from inflicting Poison and Disease unmodded in v1.4 and v2.5, but it doesn't stop the portrait icons.

    As for the gas - the technicalities of poison immunity - it only applies to ongoing poisons, not direct poison damage. And then there's the fact that those Iron Golems don't actually cast Cloudkill - they have the spell, known and memorized, but still resort to using a custom scripted innate that does the exact same thing while specifically not being "Cloudkill". I agree that the form should grant immunity to it as well, but it certainly appears like someone went out of their way to ensure it doesn't.
    Iron Golems themselves are immune to it because they have 100% poison resistance, something a Polymorph/Shapechange/Shapeshift simply cannot grant.

    Rik_KirtaniyaStummvonBordwehr
  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,142

    this is strange, but it appears that Belhifet is immune to weapons only up to +2 enchantment.

    Does that mean anything having +3 or higher enchantment can hit him? If that is so, there are just SO MANY things that can hit him! It is sooooooo funny! :D A creature having virtually complete immunity against any direct spells cast on him is vulnerable to weapons with just +3 enchantment?

    Canonically, +2 are all you need to hit almost anything in AD&D. "Immunity to low/no-enchantment weapons" is not really a game mechanic that was used much. Even the Mantle spells were an invention of BG2 IIRC. So it's not a great point of comparison. (IWD in particular was more faithful to pen-and-paper AD&D in all its unbalanced glory, than BG2 was.)
    Yet, it is something that makes it too easy for Fighter type classes, and too hard (though not impossible) for Mage type classes. ;) Isn't that unbalanced?
    As for example, Kangaxx's Demilich form. He's immune to all spells from levels 1-9 but at the same time he's also immune to all weapons up to +3 enchantment and also has high physical damage resistance (90% resistance, if I remember correctly). Now that is definitely balanced, as it is nearly equally difficult for both magic and melee classes to defeat him. That is something like 40-60 in favour of either class, but the case of Belhifet is like 10-90 for the odds of magic against melee. Incomprehensibly insufferable imbalance. Hence my concern. :)

    ThacoBell
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,341
    edited May 19
    Why does every enemy have to be balanced against every class? There are parts of the game where a cavalier will be more challenged than a caster.

    The game was designed with a party in mind. Even against Belhifet, warriors will benefit from the support of a caster. If you only consider soloing, then you are considering something contrary to the explocit design of the game; so of course the game will seem ill-designed for such play. It literally is ill-designed for such play.

    EDIT - also Kangaxx is stupid, I wouldn't use that as an example of good game design.

    ThacoBellRaduziel
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    ThacoBell said:

    @SomeSort Sorry buddy. But its not a remake, its an update. Nothing was remade, it uses the same engine with updates.

    Look, this argument is completely pointless. I'm sure we both agree about that. But this statement is just plain wrong. Plenty of stuff was remade. Source: Beamdog.

    https://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-back-baldur-s-gate-after-17-years-1768303595
    “It was a big challenge because all of the Baldur’s Gate original assets like the 3D models that make up these sprites, the 3D models for the levels in the original game, these archives were lost,” explained Beamdog lead designer Phillip Daigle during a recent interview at an event in San Francisco. “There was a data tape in some guy’s garage, and it flooded, and it was gone. There goes the history of Baldur’s Gate. That’s the case with a lot of classic games. There was a single archive, it was in some guy’s basement and sorry, the disc rotted, and it’s gone now.”

    The video game industry does a notoriously terrible job of preserving its history, so Beamdog had to start almost from scratch, reverse-engineering their own tools to remix and remaster games BioWare and Black Isle created many years ago. In some cases, it was a more... obtuse process than in others. Daigle showed me a crowded town square, a bustling city center writ large in dilapidated cobblestone. It looked nice, even by modern day graphical standards. Once upon a time, though, it was coffee.

    “In the original Baldur’s Gate,” explained Daigle, “these cobble stone streets here, this was just a close up picture of coffee beans and they just repeated over and over again. In ‘98 you had a 15 inch CRT, so you’re not going to notice or care probably. Nowadays when you’ve got an HD screen, you’re like, ‘Oh, those are coffee beans.’ We had to render out new streets and then lay them into the original 2D art and then paint over it. It was this whole process.”

    He went on to tell me that Beamdog had to reverse-engineer basically everything: new character sprites, rigging, levels, camera angles/distance, and even fake camera lenses. “I think we’re about 90-95% new code at this point,” said Beamdog president Trent Oster. They also had to create a new style guide, a tome to reference when asking, “Is this thing we’re making in the spirit of Baldur’s Gate?” It was all a very long, sometimes arduous learning process.

    More importantly, a lot of things in IWD:EE are different than they were in IWD. Kits exist. Sorceror, Barbarian, and Half-orc exist. Dual-wielding exists. (In IWD, "Dual-wielding" meant if you had a ranger and you didn't equip a shield, you got an extra attack per round.) Lots of new spells were added. Lots of old spells were changed. Haste gives +1 APR instead of doubling APR. Tenser's Transformation no longer adds 1 APR.

    And just as crucially, these changes weren't driven by a desire for balance. They were driven by a desire to have all IE games using the same assets so they'd be easier to update en masse. Most of these changes just crush the original underlying balance. True dual-wielding in a game that's littered with "speed" weapons? Sorcerors in a game where arcane magic is governed by scroll scarcity? Dwarven Defenders and Barbarians in a campaign that's chock full of items that grant really substantial resistance bonuses?

    I think it's perfectly fair to say that (A) IWD:EE demolishes the underlying balance of IWD, and (B) this lack of balance is an IWD:EE problem and not an IWD problem.

    With that said, IWD:EE has the massive advantage of actually running on the platforms and devices I use today, which is a pretty compelling point in its favor. Also, I've played the original so much and experienced that original taut balance so much that sometimes it's fun to just do stuff that's stupid and broken, like take a Dwarven Defender and just make him immune to damage.

    Rik_KirtaniyaGrond0
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 733
    I suppose the question would be then how many of those 'features' are unignorable? No-one forces us to use kits or unbalanced items after all. I'm quite looking forward to playing IWD in EET though, which will be a very different game indeed!

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 609
    SomeSort said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @SomeSort Sorry buddy. But its not a remake, its an update. Nothing was remade, it uses the same engine with updates.

    I think it's perfectly fair to say that (A) IWD:EE demolishes the underlying balance of IWD, and (B) this lack of balance is an IWD:EE problem and not an IWD problem.

    I think the biggest issue is that they didn't overhaul the enemies, especially the boss battles to take full advantage of the changes. The combat encounters were all designed for the original game, where kits like the dwarven defender didn't exist, mages didn't get spells like time stop or shapechange and there were less items to equip your party with. The end result is that the EE is much easier, because the enemies fall behind in terms of resources available to them.

  • FylFyl Member Posts: 62

    Why does every enemy have to be balanced against every class? There are parts of the game where a cavalier will be more challenged than a caster.

    The game was designed with a party in mind. Even against Belhifet, warriors will benefit from the support of a caster. If you only consider soloing, then you are considering something contrary to the explocit design of the game; so of course the game will seem ill-designed for such play. It literally is ill-designed for such play.

    EDIT - also Kangaxx is stupid, I wouldn't use that as an example of good game design.

    Kangaxx *IS* stupid, designed like a console game boss... but entirely optional

    Game wasn't designed for solo or for kits at all, btw.

    Original IWD in its old form was designed for a party of mercenaries from a harsh locale, ie a group of brutes, most of em straight multi or dual classed warriors.

    HoW them EE messed with the balance, hence they decided to rebalance some stuff for a bit of challenge at the end.

    Anyway, the proper full of win and awesomeness boss in this game is Yxunomei. Most people just forget that because they have restartitis and unconsciously metagame the hell out of her

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