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10 bandit Waylay should be removed from chapter 1

135

Comments

  • bretbret Member Posts: 24
    edited April 2018
    The guys that like to play no-reload, well thats entirely your choice, and of course ups the difficulty significantly.. The game was never meant to be played this way so, I hate to say it but, thats on you. Sure its fun and challenging, but it was designed to make you have to save like crazy as often as possible, and thats how they wanted you to do it. There's a reason it autosaves every time you leave an area, whether its a town or moving from section to section in the wilderness.. Ever play Diablo in hardcore mode, bust your a** getting to a certain point, only to finally die and guess what, have to start the entire game over again?


    For me, no-reload isn't about bragging rights or making the game more difficult just for the sake of it. Rather, playing with that constraint forces me to slow down and be more thoughtful and strategic, even for minor encounters. I like how that makes me play more creatively and make greater use of all available options (especially consumables). If I allow myself to reload, I find I get sloppier and over-reliant on lucky rolls to get through situations, and that's less rewarding.

    No-reload is very achievable and is mostly about maintaining focus and avoiding careless mistakes. But things like the 10-bandit waylay are frustrating because it's not really the player's fault; it can happen to a level 1 character on her first trip to Friendly Arm Inn, and there's very little you can do about it. If I die, I want it to be because I did something foolish/dangerous that I could have handled differently or avoided. I don't want it just be an unlucky roll from the random number generator :neutral:

    ZaghoulRavenslightMrBaquansemiticgod
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 1,945
    I almost never play no-reload, but my understanding is that:

    1. Even without this encounter, no-reload would require metagame knowledge or luck.
    2. This encounter is avoidable with metagame knowledge or luck.

    If both of those things are true, then I don't see how this encounter changes the equation.

    Grond0StummvonBordwehrThacoBellMortianna
  • Yann1989Yann1989 Member Posts: 92
    edited April 2018
    Haha, this post is going to roll forever :) This is not the same kind of meta knowledge though, you have no clue what traveling hours are safe even if you have already finished the game several times. It's meta-game knowledge that comes from reading the beamdog forum ;) .

    PS : I don't advocate for a change of the 10 bandit encounter, my soul is fine with it, Baldur's Gate is a harsh game.

    bretjoluvMortiannaDaevelon
  • bretbret Member Posts: 24
    edited April 2018
    It's true that no-reload requires extensive metagame knowledge, but the luck element can often be minimized with good tactics.

    The thing I find objectionable about the 10-bandit waylay is that (A) it can happen to a level 1 character before there are any tactical options available, and (B) the metagame knowledge for avoiding it is not very discoverable.

    With things like the location of traps, or that pesky fight with Tarnesh, players can gain the meta-knowledge simply through in-game experience gained from repeated playthroughs. But to discover the mechanics of the 10-bandit waylay (so you can reliably avoid it) you pretty much have to dig through internal game files (or rely on folks like @CamDawg to do the work for you! Thanks!)

    joluvOrlonKronsteenRavenslightMrBaquan
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,871
    @bret "No-reload is very achievable and is mostly about maintaining focus and avoiding careless mistakes. But things like the 10-bandit waylay are frustrating because it's not really the player's fault; it can happen to a level 1 character on her first trip to Friendly Arm Inn, and there's very little you can do about it. If I die, I want it to be because I did something foolish/dangerous that I could have handled differently or avoided. I don't want it just be an unlucky roll from the random number generator :neutral:"

    You DO realize you are playing a game based on a dice system, right?

    Chroniclertbone1dunbar
  • bretbret Member Posts: 24
    @ThacoBell

    I'm not sure what you're implying...

    Sure, there's plenty of randomness in BG attack rolls and saving throws. But the challenge (and fun) of no-reload gameplay is to avoid situations where one unlucky roll could kill CHARNAME. As a low-level character, that often means running away or chugging potions of invisibility. At higher levels there are a lot more interesting options, especially for arcane casters who can make themselves immune to almost everything and completely remove the element of luck from an encounter.

    I'm less familiar with BG 1 content, and until I read this discussion I didn't realize the 10-bandit waylay could be avoided. I often play mage characters and use SCS, and it's basically a death sentence if it occurs before I've managed to acquire a potion of invisibility. At least now I can avoid it...

    OrlonKronsteen
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,871
    That's the very nature of the game.

  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 630
    Absolutely NOT.. It's part of the charm=P

    thespace
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 798
    My addiction to the mild dopamine hit of avoiding it and the adrenalin rush of it showing up leads me to oppose the removal of the circle of death :).

    StummvonBordwehrZaghoulOrlonKronsteenthespace
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,941
    @Monotremata Oh dear god, ICE! I’d finally got out of therapy for that a year ago and you have to remind me of it.

    *crawls into corner and sucks thumb*

    BTW, whose thumb is this? Tastes like blueberries

    ThacoBellMonotremataOrlonKronsteen
  • MonotremataMonotremata Member Posts: 74
    tbone1 said:

    @Monotremata Oh dear god, ICE! I’d finally got out of therapy for that a year ago and you have to remind me of it.

    *crawls into corner and sucks thumb*

    BTW, whose thumb is this? Tastes like blueberries

    :D :D :D
    To be fair I really liked MERP, mainly because of the setting, and some of the sourcebooks that came out for it were awesome for a Tolkien geek. But the mechanics of the game were just WOW REALLY?? We didn't run it very many times just because of how long it took to do even a simple little trek into a cave or something to go beat up some trolls. TSRs Marvel Super Heroes was the same way. Loved playing in the Marvel Universe, but the game itself..

  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 285
    Play on legacy of Bhaal mode and give your character the innate ability to cast protection from normal missles through EEKeeper and NearInfinity. An ability learned from Gorion. Problem solved.

  • MrBaquanMrBaquan Member Posts: 7
    edited November 2018
    I'm sure I'm way late on this, but a LOT of people are missing the point. It has nothing to do with it being "hard." Reloading and trying again with an improved strategy isn't a problem; reloading and hoping you just don't get that waylay because it's unwinnable though? How is this design defensible?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,871
    MrBaquan said:

    I'm sure I'm way late on this, but a LOT of people are missing the point. It has nothing to do with it being "hard." Reloading and trying again isn't a problem; reloading and hoping you just don't get that waylay because it's unwinnable? How is this design defensible?

    Because it's not unwinnable.

    thespace
  • bretbret Member Posts: 24
    Ehh, it's basically unwinnable (and not survivable) if you stumble upon it as a level 1 character on your first journey to the Friendly Arm Inn. You won't even have a Potion of Invisibility at that point.

    However, this discussion helped me attain the metagame knowledge I need to avoid it (until my character is powerful enough to handle it.) In that sense, it's no different than other metagame knowledge like trap avoidance or buffing for an upcoming fight.

    But I'm still salty about it, because that metagame knowledge is a lot less discoverable and basically requires digging through the game internals, and prematurely ended several of my no-reload runs (until I discovered this thread!)

  • thespacethespace Member Posts: 1,037
    Already miss the early vampire wolf and the extra banters that you used to get with continuous clicking on character portraits in IWD. Don't take anything else please :)

    scriverDragonspear
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,871
    @bret No, its very much survivable at level 1, and even winnable with a little luck. A fighter in splint with high con and dex is almost guaranteed to win that fight, even moreso with Imoen. I've even done it with a level 1 mage a couple times (having imoen helps a lot). Now if you go solo mage and hit it at level 1... well now you know that travelling alone in a dangerous land at level 1 is not good decision making.

    thespaceAstroBryGuyscriverDragonspear
  • bretbret Member Posts: 24
    Difficulty settings / mods are relevant to the discussion here. In SCS, enemy archers will focus fire on a mage CHARNAME and ignore Imoen/Monty (if you happen to have them.)

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,871
    bret said:

    Difficulty settings / mods are relevant to the discussion here. In SCS, enemy archers will focus fire on a mage CHARNAME and ignore Imoen/Monty (if you happen to have them.)

    You can't blame a game for being unreasonably hard if you mod it to be harder. That's a complaint of the mod, not the game. So no, its not relevant. If you intentionally modify the game to make it harder for yourself, then its 100% on you.

    ArtonaAstroBryGuyscriverStummvonBordwehr
  • SirBatinceSirBatince Member Posts: 785
    "shields are useless"

    "oh my god 10 bandit cannot be countered"

    make up your mind!

    ThacoBellscriverChronicler
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,743
    ThacoBell said:

    bret said:

    Difficulty settings / mods are relevant to the discussion here. In SCS, enemy archers will focus fire on a mage CHARNAME and ignore Imoen/Monty (if you happen to have them.)

    You can't blame a game for being unreasonably hard if you mod it to be harder. That's a complaint of the mod, not the game. So no, its not relevant. If you intentionally modify the game to make it harder for yourself, then its 100% on you.
    So much fucking this. Ask the SCS team to remove it if it's too hard with SCS. Don't ask the game devs to change the game because you modded the difficulty too high for yourself.

    ThacoBellChronicler
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,743
    bret said:


    However, this discussion helped me attain the metagame knowledge I need to avoid it (until my character is powerful enough to handle it.) In that sense, it's no different than other metagame knowledge like trap avoidance or buffing for an upcoming fight.

    The only meta knowledge you need to avoid it is knowledge of how to use the load game function.

    ArtonaChronicler
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,207
    does the game warn you not to travel at night? i think this is a little problematic because a reasonable player might think that night is a little safer, believing you're less likely to be spotted and waylaid

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,871
    @bob_veng Is the ambush rate higher at night? I don't think I've noticed any difference. I seem to get an even spread of say/night ambushes.

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,245
    ThacoBell said:

    @bob_veng Is the ambush rate higher at night? I don't think I've noticed any difference. I seem to get an even spread of say/night ambushes.

    I think @bob_veng is referring to where I pointed out that this particular encounter only occurs between 2000-2400, and suggesting that night spawns may be tougher, not more frequent. (For the record, random encounter frequency is not affected by day/night.)

    In general I do think you get slightly stronger spawns at night, not just in the random encounters--ghasts instead of hobgoblins, for example. That's anecdotally from my own play experience, not from any systematic parsing of the game files.

    Grond0JuliusBorisovbob_vengThacoBell
  • bretbret Member Posts: 24
    scriver said:

    bret said:


    However, this discussion helped me attain the metagame knowledge I need to avoid it (until my character is powerful enough to handle it.) In that sense, it's no different than other metagame knowledge like trap avoidance or buffing for an upcoming fight.

    The only meta knowledge you need to avoid it is knowledge of how to use the load game function.
    Clearly it's a minority opinion, so I won't belabor the point, but I would point out that one of the most popular threads on this forum (over half-a-million views) is about "No Reload" playthroughs. Maybe it's not your cup-of-tea, but it's a popular playstyle!

    One of the great things about Baldur's Gate is that it can accommodate so many different playstyles: powergamers, roleplayers, and everything in between. But no matter your preferred playstyle, at some point everyone must reckon with "cheese": Tactics that should be avoided because they exploit bad mechanics, or trivialize the game, or violates RP, or violate the intent of the designers, or....

    For me, Power Word: Reload is one of those tactics that I avoid. Likewise, exploiting (what I consider to be) inferior AI is unsatisfying, which is why I don't play vanilla (un-modded) installs anymore.

    Re: the 10 bandit waylay, I find it particularly annoying because it seemed completely random and could befall a level 1 mage fresh out of Candlekeep. But now that I understand the mechanics behind it, it's just another piece of meta-knowledge to plan around :smile:

    Grond0StummvonBordwehr
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