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10 bandit Waylay should be removed from chapter 1

As the title says. The 10 bandit waylay should not happen in chapter 1. It is an death sentence to 1st level characters as they cannot run fast enough to get away.

OrlonKronsteenbooinyoureyes
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Comments

  • Necromanx2Necromanx2 Member Posts: 873
    edited March 17
    I think danger is ok. Near certain death with one unlucky waylay seems bad to me. The only way you survive is if you have a potion of invisibility and any teammates are dead (especially mages) or the bandits all roll bad for two sets of rolls (very unlikely).

    EDIT: I guess I see this as the one battle where you cannot decide to avoid it and run. All other ambushes I can run from with a good chance of getting away.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,741
    If you time your travels so ambushes occur only during the day you won't see any bandits in Chapter 1. It's also possible to avoid the main road entirely by choosing your routes between areas carefully.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 419
    It literally autosaves right before you're waylaid.

    The game's built around making judicious use of the save feature. You're expected to die many times, but it's fine because they've enabled you to save frequently.

    There's no real consequence to dying in an ambush. You just lose like ten seconds of play time.

  • JDowJDow Member Posts: 54
    I generally play with a custom team of 5-6 characters. Yea, this kind of ambush is tough at level 1.

    I generally just try to just battle through it. Sometimes I win, other times I'll loose someone, or worse.

    I just try to do what's best in the situation. I'll send (resilient) fighters straight into melee with particular archers knowing they'll probably draw the fire of the archers on either side. (So I don't attack the archers on either side as they're occupied). For other archers, I'll use sleep, command, etc. to try to disable them. And, if I see a particular archer targetting my weaker characters I'll try to focus fire them down with ranged characters.

    It might improve the game if there was one or two less archers, at level 1, as this kind of ambush seems disproportionately hard.

    Another hard encounter is when you run into a couple of black talon elite archers with their splint mail and ice arrows at level one.

    With the ambush though, has anyone tried not attacking them but just running north off the top of the screen. I've not tried it but I assume you quickly get out of range of the archers near the bottom.

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 557
    Grond0 said:

    If you time your travels so ambushes occur only during the day you won't see any bandits in Chapter 1. It's also possible to avoid the main road entirely by choosing your routes between areas carefully.

    Despite following this advice religiously, I've been ambushed by bandits (or hobgoblins or knife-throwing skellies) many times in Chapter 1, though it isn't as bad as traveling by night.

    There's no real consequence to dying in an ambush. You just lose like ten seconds of play time.

    There is if you're playing a no-reload game.


    I agree these encounters should be removed. Not only are they too hard, they're stupidly unrealistic and immersion-breaking. Have you ever, while traveling on a wilderness map, allowed a group of enemies to completely circle around you in an area with clear visibility? No, of course not. You'd never let it happen - but this mechanic assumes that you've done just that.

    Removing this was one of the things I'd hoped to see in Enhanced Editions. I also would love to see a way to control the number of random encounters in the game in the options menu. You can alter resting encounters in Tweaks, but a comprehensive menu for all random encounters would be great. Love trash mobs? Crank 'em up! Hate them? Simply lower their frequency or turn them off entirely.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,741
    edited March 18

    Grond0 said:

    If you time your travels so ambushes occur only during the day you won't see any bandits in Chapter 1. It's also possible to avoid the main road entirely by choosing your routes between areas carefully.

    Despite following this advice religiously, I've been ambushed by bandits (or hobgoblins or knife-throwing skellies) many times in Chapter 1, though it isn't as bad as traveling by night.
    @OrlonKronsteen day-time is probably a bit imprecise in relation to bandits - the timing is something like 5 am to 4 pm. Remember it's the time you arrive in the encounter area that counts, not the time when you leave or travel. If you're trying to travel beyond an adjacent area you also need to know the arrival time at each individual area you travel through as there's a separate check for ambushes between each area (with the odd exception - there's no check in BG1 for areas with 0 hrs travel time and also not for the route from Beregost to the area immediately south of it (that had a travel time of 0 in vanilla and though BGEE has changed that to 4 hrs they haven't added an ambush check).

    The above timing relates specifically to bandits on the route from FAI to Nashkel - there are plenty of other possible encounters with ranged enemies as you note. Some of those you can guarantee to avoid by choosing routes and times, but not all of them.

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 557
    Very interesting, though I've still been ambushed in short area transitions that pit me in the ambush area during daylight hours. The probability is much lower, however. I thought I'd narrowed that safe time window from hour 7 to hour 17, but this is just based on me making notes about when I've been ambushed the most - it's not scientific at all. And, of course, invariably I'll get complacent and forget to check the time sometimes, too. All this said, regardless of when you travel, I still wish these ambushes didn't put you in the center of a shooting gallery which even a first-time player would never allow to happen.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,030
    edited March 18
    I'm really not understanding the opinions that things that could kill you in game should be adjusted.

    The game doesn't "care" if you lose, the whole point of any game is to stop you winning. All of them, from snakes and ladders to computer games.
    There would be no games whatsoever if the emphasis was on people winning rather than being thwarted.

    BG is a game, it's not an adventure, it's not a book, it's not a film ect.
    It doesn't want you to win, it shouldn't want you to see the end credits, they are not part of it's reason to exist.
    Instant death scenarios if they can be incorporated into a game, any game, and still be logical within the parameters of the design of the game are absolutely what a "game" should be about.

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 557

    I'm really not understanding the opinions that things that could kill you in game should be adjusted.

    But that's not the argument: the argument is that things that kill you unfairly - and which give you no chance of survival should be adjusted.

    Should there be ambushes? Yes! Should the game be hard? Yes! I too love how the BG games don't handle you with kid gloves. But games aren't supposed to be unwinnable or unsurvivable. With most of the game's hard challenges you can run away from an enemy when you're under leveled. With the archer ambushes, whether they be human, hobgoblin or skellies, you have no chance. And IMO the lack of realism of those encounters bothers me just as much as the unfairness of them. You'd never let a group of enemies form a tight ring around you when you're exploring wilderness areas. Yet these ambushes take you out of character and put you in an artificial scenario that is immersion-breaking. I say get rid of those ringed ambushes and replace them with more realistic ones, where you're approached by a group of archers and at least have a chance to run.


  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 560
    Maybe think of it more like the bandits having levels in Thief: the ones behind you are hiding in the shadows, and considering there's no Spot checks or anything in BG. It's actually more unbelievable that none of your enemies, known for stealth and banditry, are intelligent enough to try to encircle you before ambushing you. It's also not quite as deadly as you think: I can't recall the last time I've actually died to that ambush. Running and invisibility potions do wonders.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,030
    @OrlonKronsteen

    But you can run away from them. Not all of the party, fair enough, but you can get charname away. Swig an invisibilty potion and get lucky and you can run away.
    Which fits with the setting.

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 557
    @Neverused That's an interesting point, and if the ambush areas were wooded, it would work for me. Unfortunately they're always open fields and I'm unable to maintain suspension of disbelief. As for survivability, I've had the opposite experience (at least for my party mages, and usually my thieves) - at least until I get those potions of invisibility, or better yet, the level 2 spell of the same name. It's always my first level 2 spell now, ahead of web. I mean, in a party where I'm playing a fighter character I can sometimes survive those ambushes at levels 1-2, but my party mages always die. It doesn't always mean the end of my no-reload run, but I'm sure as heck tired of hauling my mages to temples for resurrection at low levels. I'm getting tempted to just leave them there to save myself a trip. ;)

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 557
    @UnderstandMouseMagic You beat my post! :)

    But if you're playing a mage charname, you're dead, plain and simple. It can take awhile to get those invisibility potions, and you can get ambushed multiple times, sometimes in succession.

    Also: as in last post, I'm getting burned out from taking my mages to temples to be resurrected.

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 557
    CamDawg said:

    It's the quantity of the attackers that makes them dangerous.

    And the fact that you're effectively teleported into the middle of a perfect ring of them and thus can't run before getting shot. And with SCS, they're all targeting your mage. If they were to approach you from the top or side of the screen, you'd have a more realistic - and survivable encounter.

    Are the skeleton and hobgoblin archers part of the ar6100?

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 419
    edited March 18
    You're bringing a whole lot of mods and self imposed rules and stuff into the equation here.

    At that point it sounds like the issue is more on your end than with the game.

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 557
    Well, it's more noticeable in a no-reload run and with SCS for sure, but that ambush has reeked of cheese to me since the first time it ever happened, nearly 20 years ago. Personally I agree with the OP that it should be gotten rid of, but to each their own. Maybe there will be an option to remove it in Tweaks or another mod some day, who knows?

  • CloutierCloutier Member Posts: 211
    That ambush's a stinker for sure.
    And I'm loving it!!!

  • FoxterFoxter Member Posts: 20
    That ambush should come up only on high difficulty levels, you would know at least that the game is not easy after selecting that difficulty level. The Demon Knight and Aec are nasty enemies and it's quite normal to expect a difficult battle but this encounter it's extremely annoying for early parties. In case of the Demon Knight you realize that you are outmatched if you cannot defeat the armored suits on the way to the tower.

  • JDowJDow Member Posts: 54
    Perhaps the encounter is their to encourage the use of large shields, sword & shield style weapon proficiency, spintmail+ armours, and such things :).

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,033
    That ambush is incredibly important to set the tone of this games difficulty. Its not like modern day games. It doesn't want you to win (shoutout at @UnderstandMouseMagic 's comment). This game will (at times) kill you with no warning. Be prepared and roll with the punches. Or reload.

  • Necromanx2Necromanx2 Member Posts: 873
    I get the ambush going from the area next to Candlekeep to the area under the Friendly Arm Inn and the area between the FAI and the area under it. I play with no craeted party so I have 4 characters (me, Imoen, Zxar, Montorn). Difficult encounters is not the issue (as mentioned above). You will die without hope of getting out is an issue.

    Why do we have this one thing in the entire game where there are no option to avoid?

  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 660
    I've been killed by a single lone wolf as soon as I stepped out of candlekeep. But apparently being ambushed by bandits is an issue for some people...

  • SirBatinceSirBatince Member Posts: 747
    edited March 19
    the basilik waylaid around east side of the world map is 100x worse

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