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10 bandit Waylay should be removed from chapter 1

2

Comments

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 419
    JDow said:

    Perhaps the encounter is their to encourage the use of large shields, sword & shield style weapon proficiency, spintmail+ armours, and such things :).

    In the original release of BG1 there wasn't really any alternative to using shields. You couldn't dual wield. Also the weapon styles hadn't been added so there was no way to enhance your shield using abilities beyond the baseline.

    This was unlikely to be a consideration in the creation of this encounter.

  • Yann1989Yann1989 Member Posts: 92
    I agree it's problematic for a no-reload run, when you are at level 1 and you are under-equipped. Of course, any no-reload run is difficult in essence, but this encounter can randomly end your run no matter how good you are. Of course, you can be careful about the time of your traveling, but that requires more meta-game knowledge and care than I would have thought, even for no-reloaders.
    Most will argue that no-reload runs require meta-game knowledge anyway and that's a fair point. However, it means doing a no-reload run with a mage charname is even more likely to end brutally.

    I understand why one might appreciate the game being harsh about you, I like it too. Of course there is no problem for those who reload their saves.

    Let me tell this however: you think you like Baldur's Gate difficulty? In fact, if you were really keen on tasting this game's difficulty and feel it in your guts, you would play or at least try a no-reload some day. I can tell you it makes the game so much challenging and different. You come to be more strategic, you have to think about your survival,etc...

    I don't recommend it if you play the game for the first time though, because you need to know a lot of things in the game before you're able to make a no-reload.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,033
    @Yann1989 " In fact, if you were really keen on tasting this game's difficulty and feel it in your guts, you would play or at least try a no-reload some day."

    Why? Baldur's Gate was never designed for no-reload play. Its difficulty is intentionally tuned towards re-loading multiple times to fix mistakes. Hence why there are so many instant death scenarios taht come out of no where and really can't be avoided without meta knowledge.

    Complaining about this encounter being too difficult without re-loads is like complaining that brushing your teeth is too difficult without a tooth brush. You're trying to do something intentionally without using the tool desgined for it.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 419
    A lot of those challenge runs are kind of designed to go against the spirit of the game though.

    Like I've had a lot of runs with Nuzlocke runs in Pokemon. It forces you to try out new strategies and play with pokemon you'd usually ignore.

    Still, complaining that Pokemon was too harsh and unforgiving under the nuzlocke rules would seem weird. Pokemon is not a harsh and unforgiving game. If you're playing the game as it is intended, these fail states aren't really all that big a deal.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 419
    Is that a bug? Don't think I've seen that one.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,124

    Sigh, it seems like so many of you are against creating safe spaces for today's adventurers. ;)

    the easiest way to solve this is to play on an easier diffuclty if it's to hard.

  • Yann1989Yann1989 Member Posts: 92

    A lot of those challenge runs are kind of designed to go against the spirit of the game though.

    Like I've had a lot of runs with Nuzlocke runs in Pokemon. It forces you to try out new strategies and play with pokemon you'd usually ignore.

    Still, complaining that Pokemon was too harsh and unforgiving under the nuzlocke rules would seem weird. Pokemon is not a harsh and unforgiving game. If you're playing the game as it is intended, these fail states aren't really all that big a deal.

    Yes I agree with you. I just wanted to point out that this encounter makes no-reload runs more random than they would have been otherwise, but I understand that a game should not be adjusted for challenge runs.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,571
    There are more than enough potions of invisibility for you to quaff when this happens. Give them to your more fragile characters and let the fighters do the job

  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 1,906
    I don't think the ambush event would work at all, if the player had a choice to instantaneously escape it (such as if the party position was set on the one edge of the map with the ememies on the other one) . It is designed to prevent just that, and one of its implementations is to let the ambushers surround the party. Perhaps more sensible would be to forbid leaving the area until after the fight is over, as being saved by the miraculous teleport, even though dozens of arrows are shots at them is far more ridiculous than being suddenly surrounded by bandits.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 419
    If I recall in World War 1, most of the casualties died in their first week of service.

    Like you'd go in, you wouldn't know what you were doing, but if you lived long enough to figure it out you'd have a much better shot of making it through the rest of the war.

    I see it kind of like that. The Quicksave mechanic basically means you get a mulligan on all those times your character's inexperience kills them in your first week of adventuring.

  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,058
    As rough as that circle of bows is, I still, even now, feel a nice sense of relief and success when escaping that lot, early on. I feel even better, later on after gaining a couple lvls, the first time I catch myself making a beeline towards the edge of the map, stopping, and laying waste to their whole crew (just for sport mind you ;) ).

  • SakigamiSakigami Member Posts: 20
    edited April 9
    Hi,

    There is a lot of things that can kill you if you don't prepare yourself.

    All you have to do is talking with people, sometimes they will warn you and then you can prepare for an expedition, buy most commonly used : potion, scroll... as if it was a dungeon you where about to explore and you have to solve any problem, however, with a few difficulties ( it would not be fun if not )

    If you are LV1 and go for a basilik well may be you should try something different like coming back when you have some stuff because with a spell or scroll you have immunity and its like killing a kobold, strong one at least but easy.

    Finally go where your companion are asking before they leave you or worst.

    I hope this ll help you to have a better experience.

  • Yann1989Yann1989 Member Posts: 92
    Sakigami said:

    Hi,

    There is a lot of things that can kill you if you don't prepare yourself.

    All you have to do is talking with people, sometimes they will warn you and then you can prepare for an expedition, buy most commonly used : potion, scroll... as if it was a dungeon you where about to explore and you have to solve any problem, however, with a few difficulties ( it would not be fun if not )

    If you are LV1 and go for a basilik well may be you should try something different like coming back when you have some stuff because with a spell or scroll you have immunity and its like killing a kobold, strong one at least but easy.

    Finally go where your companion are asking before they leave you or worst.

    I hope this ll help you to have a better experience.

    Hi Sakigami,

    I believe what you're talking about does not apply to this case, because you cannot avoid the 10 bandit encounter, contrary to the basilisk.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,513
    Yann1989 said:

    I believe what you're talking about does not apply to this case, because you cannot avoid the 10 bandit encounter, contrary to the basilisk.

    From everything I've read around here, you can avoid it, either by avoiding certain map routes or by avoiding traveling at certain times of day.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,033
    I'm not sure what triggers it, but I only see it every other playthrough or so.

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,168
    You could, you know, scroll up...
    CamDawg said:

    The ambush area in question is ar6100, which can spawn the 10-bandit ambush between 8pm and midnight. ar6100 is pretty much the ambush area for traveling along the main road and the area itself has a north-south cobbled path. It's used as the ambush area starting in the north with Wyrm's Crossing, the ankheg farm/Ajantis' area, FAI, area south of FAI, Lion's Way (where Gorion gets ambushed), Beregost, south of Beregost, and north of Nashkel. Ambushes occur roughly 5% for each area traveled.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,149

    CamDawg said:

    It's the quantity of the attackers that makes them dangerous.

    And the fact that you're effectively teleported into the middle of a perfect ring of them and thus can't run before getting shot. And with SCS, they're all targeting your mage. If they were to approach you from the top or side of the screen, you'd have a more realistic - and survivable encounter.

    Are the skeleton and hobgoblin archers part of the ar6100?
    i don't think you're correct there. what you need to do is to send your party in 6 directions, like this, each to face a bandit in melee. mage can go into melee range too and then kite and cast

    enemy: x x x x x x x x x x chars: 3 5 6 4 . 1 . . 2 .

    1 & 2 should be warriors.

    if you don't have a full party only then is this encounter hard

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,741
    edited April 11
    CamDawg said:

    The ambush area in question is ar6100, which can spawn the 10-bandit ambush between 8pm and midnight. ar6100 is pretty much the ambush area for traveling along the main road and the area itself has a north-south cobbled path. It's used as the ambush area starting in the north with Wyrm's Crossing, the ankheg farm/Ajantis' area, FAI, area south of FAI, Lion's Way (where Gorion gets ambushed), Beregost, south of Beregost, and north of Nashkel. Ambushes occur roughly 5% for each area traveled.

    @CamDawg I don't think the timing is correct for the ambush when travelling north of the FAI - I've never been able to avoid the bandit ambush there with certainty. In the natural course of the game though you would tend to be a higher level when travelling there and the bandit ambush not really a problem anyway.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,343
    edited April 11

    the basilik waylaid around east side of the world map is 100x worse

    I agree, if you have characters petrified on that ambush map, and you have no scrolls to cure them, they are lost forever.

    @SirBatince that hobgoblin ambush, did he dieded?

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,168
    Grond0 said:

    CamDawg said:

    The ambush area in question is ar6100, which can spawn the 10-bandit ambush between 8pm and midnight. ar6100 is pretty much the ambush area for traveling along the main road and the area itself has a north-south cobbled path. It's used as the ambush area starting in the north with Wyrm's Crossing, the ankheg farm/Ajantis' area, FAI, area south of FAI, Lion's Way (where Gorion gets ambushed), Beregost, south of Beregost, and north of Nashkel. Ambushes occur roughly 5% for each area traveled.

    @CamDawg I don't think the timing is correct for the ambush when travelling north of the FAI - I've never been able to avoid the bandit ambush there with certainty. In the natural course of the game though you would tend to be a higher level when travelling there and the bandit ambush not really a problem anyway.
    The spawns are determined by the area script when you enter the random encounter area. The 10-bandit spawn is the third-to-last block; the key bit is TimeGT(19):

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    TimeLT(2)
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("KOBOLD",[469.735],W) // Kobold
    CreateCreature("KOBOLD",[620.731],S) // Kobold
    CreateCreature("KOBOLD",[501.366],S) // Kobold
    END

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    TimeGT(1)
    TimeLT(4)
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("HOBGOB",[302.672],S) // Hobgoblin
    CreateCreature("HOBGOB",[429.431],S) // Hobgoblin
    CreateCreature("HOBGOB",[784.432],S) // Hobgoblin
    CreateCreature("HOBGOB",[953.533],S) // Hobgoblin
    CreateCreature("HOBGOBA",[761.749],S) // Hobgoblin
    END

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    TimeGT(3)
    TimeLT(DAWN_START)
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("WOLF",[628.346],S) // Wolf
    CreateCreature("WOLF",[554.355],S) // Wolf
    END

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    TimeGT(5)
    TimeLT(NOON)
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("DOGWI",[382.656],S) // Wild Dog
    CreateCreature("DOGWI",[468.374],S) // Wild Dog
    CreateCreature("DOGWI",[662.342],S) // Wild Dog
    CreateCreature("DOGWI",[898.561],S) // Wild Dog
    END

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    TimeGT(11)
    TimeLT(14)
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("GIBBER",[883.425],S) // Gibberling
    CreateCreature("GIBBER",[955.576],S) // Gibberling
    CreateCreature("GIBBER",[379.504],S) // Gibberling
    CreateCreature("GIBBER",[373.737],S) // Gibberling
    CreateCreature("GIBBER",[870.731],S) // Gibberling
    CreateCreature("GIBBER",[589.307],S) // Gibberling
    END

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    TimeGT(13)
    TimeLT(16)
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("OGREHA",[342.457],S) // Half Ogre
    CreateCreature("OGREHA",[871.685],S) // Half Ogre
    END

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    TimeGT(15)
    TimeLT(18)
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("WORG",[525.718],S) // Worg
    CreateCreature("WORG",[683.383],S) // Worg
    END

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    TimeGT(19)
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[323.334],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[691.763],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[674.282],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[250.540],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[323.735],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDITA",[216.647],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDITA",[830.648],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDITA",[773.378],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDITA",[826.502],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDITA",[244.412],S) // Bandit
    END

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    TimeGT(17)
    TimeLT(20)
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[383.235],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[618.244],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[716.678],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[223.730],S) // Bandit
    CreateCreature("BANDIT",[190.472],S) // Bandit
    END

    IF
    !GlobalTimerNotExpired("RandomSpawn","MYAREA")
    THEN
    RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobalTimer("RandomSpawn","MYAREA",FOUR_HOURS)
    CreateCreature("HOBGOB",[302.672],S) // Hobgoblin
    CreateCreature("HOBGOB",[429.431],S) // Hobgoblin
    CreateCreature("HOBGOB",[784.432],S) // Hobgoblin
    CreateCreature("HOBGOB",[953.533],S) // Hobgoblin
    CreateCreature("HOBGOBA",[761.749],S) // Hobgoblin
    END

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 557
    bob_veng said:

    if you don't have a full party only then is this encounter hard

    This is often the problem. Early game I might have 3 or 4 people. I've tried the strategy of engaging them up close with larger parties, but you then have to survive the initial barrage of 10 arrows before you can get in melee range. On SCS those arrows all seem to go at your mage. Of course, as others have pointed out, it's my choice to try SCS and that probably shouldn't be factored into a critique of the game design. I have survived that ambush, by running and fighting, without SCS, but there's no guarantee. The early BG1 world is a brutal one, especially in your first play-throughs when you can innocently stumble into any number of horrors.

  • bretbret Member Posts: 16
    edited April 25
    @CamDawg

    Hey, thanks for sharing the detailed info about these waylay mechanics. I've been attempting no-reload BG1 runs lately and this pesky 10-bandit encounter has bitten me a couple of times now. I was wondering if you knew...

    - Are waylay probabilities "fixed" (e.g. always x%) or do they increase at night? For example, when traveling to/from a particular area is there a fixed (say) 20% chance of being waylaid at AR6100?

    - My understanding of the mechanic is that once you are waylaid and dropped in an area like AR6100, then the area script spawns different enemies based on the game time. I.e. whether you are waylaid is random, but who you fight is deterministic. True?

    - How do things work when you traveling a greater distance than merely the immediately adjacent zone? Are the multiple waylay chances? E.g. if I attempt to travel from Nashkel to Friendly Arm Inn, does the engine do a waylay check for each leg of the journey, or just one check?

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,168
    bret said:

    - Are waylay probabilities "fixed" (e.g. always x%) or do they increase at night? For example, when traveling to/from a particular area is there a fixed (say) 20% chance of being waylaid at AR6100?

    Yes. They can be adjusted by scripting, but that's only used for special encounters--Drizzt post-Underdark, Dorn's ambush in BG, etc.
    bret said:

    - My understanding of the mechanic is that once you are waylaid and dropped in an area like AR6100, then the area script spawns different enemies based on the game time. I.e. whether you are waylaid is random, but who you fight is deterministic. True?

    You got it. The monsters that spawn once you hit the area depends entirely on the time you arrive.
    bret said:

    - How do things work when you traveling a greater distance than merely the immediately adjacent zone? Are the multiple waylay chances? E.g. if I attempt to travel from Nashkel to Friendly Arm Inn, does the engine do a waylay check for each leg of the journey, or just one check?

    My understanding is that the engine chooses the path--chosen to, I think, minimize travel-time--and then checks for random encounters. Every travel link in the worldmap has a set percentage for a random encounter, and a designated area for it.

  • MonotremataMonotremata Member Posts: 70
    edited April 27
    CamDawg said:


    My understanding is that the engine chooses the path--chosen to, I think, minimize travel-time--and then checks for random encounters. Every travel link in the worldmap has a set percentage for a random encounter, and a designated area for it.

    The original was 2e rules wasn't it?? Been ages since Ive sat down and played a real game of AD&D but random encounters were always rolled depending on an amount of time passing when traveling weren't they?? If you're traveling a fairly long distance you're going to get a random encounter check every certain period of time that passes, and this check had a certain percentage of a chance for an encounter to happen. And this rule wasn't set in stone, each module usually had its own tables, times and percentages for it, all based on the actual environment you were in. If you were playing in a particularly dangerous setting (if you're on an island entirely populated by ogres or something) your going to have more frequent encounters just based on this fact. You're traveling in a countryside that has a serious bandit problem, the people are afraid to travel the roads even. They're everywhere, expect frequent encounters.

    The guys that like to play no-reload, well thats entirely your choice, and of course ups the difficulty significantly.. The game was never meant to be played this way so, I hate to say it but, thats on you. Sure its fun and challenging, but it was designed to make you have to save like crazy as often as possible, and thats how they wanted you to do it. There's a reason it autosaves every time you leave an area, whether its a town or moving from section to section in the wilderness.. Ever play Diablo in hardcore mode, bust your a** getting to a certain point, only to finally die and guess what, have to start the entire game over again?

2
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