As the title says. The 10 bandit waylay should not happen in chapter 1. It is an death sentence to 1st level characters as they cannot run fast enough to get away.
I think danger is ok. Near certain death with one unlucky waylay seems bad to me. The only way you survive is if you have a potion of invisibility and any teammates are dead (especially mages) or the bandits all roll bad for two sets of rolls (very unlikely).
EDIT: I guess I see this as the one battle where you cannot decide to avoid it and run. All other ambushes I can run from with a good chance of getting away.
If you time your travels so ambushes occur only during the day you won't see any bandits in Chapter 1. It's also possible to avoid the main road entirely by choosing your routes between areas carefully.
It literally autosaves right before you're waylaid.
The game's built around making judicious use of the save feature. You're expected to die many times, but it's fine because they've enabled you to save frequently.
There's no real consequence to dying in an ambush. You just lose like ten seconds of play time.
I generally play with a custom team of 5-6 characters. Yea, this kind of ambush is tough at level 1.
I generally just try to just battle through it. Sometimes I win, other times I'll loose someone, or worse.
I just try to do what's best in the situation. I'll send (resilient) fighters straight into melee with particular archers knowing they'll probably draw the fire of the archers on either side. (So I don't attack the archers on either side as they're occupied). For other archers, I'll use sleep, command, etc. to try to disable them. And, if I see a particular archer targetting my weaker characters I'll try to focus fire them down with ranged characters.
It might improve the game if there was one or two less archers, at level 1, as this kind of ambush seems disproportionately hard.
Another hard encounter is when you run into a couple of black talon elite archers with their splint mail and ice arrows at level one.
With the ambush though, has anyone tried not attacking them but just running north off the top of the screen. I've not tried it but I assume you quickly get out of range of the archers near the bottom.
If you time your travels so ambushes occur only during the day you won't see any bandits in Chapter 1. It's also possible to avoid the main road entirely by choosing your routes between areas carefully.
Despite following this advice religiously, I've been ambushed by bandits (or hobgoblins or knife-throwing skellies) many times in Chapter 1, though it isn't as bad as traveling by night.
There's no real consequence to dying in an ambush. You just lose like ten seconds of play time.
There is if you're playing a no-reload game.
I agree these encounters should be removed. Not only are they too hard, they're stupidly unrealistic and immersion-breaking. Have you ever, while traveling on a wilderness map, allowed a group of enemies to completely circle around you in an area with clear visibility? No, of course not. You'd never let it happen - but this mechanic assumes that you've done just that.
Removing this was one of the things I'd hoped to see in Enhanced Editions. I also would love to see a way to control the number of random encounters in the game in the options menu. You can alter resting encounters in Tweaks, but a comprehensive menu for all random encounters would be great. Love trash mobs? Crank 'em up! Hate them? Simply lower their frequency or turn them off entirely.
If you time your travels so ambushes occur only during the day you won't see any bandits in Chapter 1. It's also possible to avoid the main road entirely by choosing your routes between areas carefully.
Despite following this advice religiously, I've been ambushed by bandits (or hobgoblins or knife-throwing skellies) many times in Chapter 1, though it isn't as bad as traveling by night.
@OrlonKronsteen day-time is probably a bit imprecise in relation to bandits - the timing is something like 5 am to 4 pm. Remember it's the time you arrive in the encounter area that counts, not the time when you leave or travel. If you're trying to travel beyond an adjacent area you also need to know the arrival time at each individual area you travel through as there's a separate check for ambushes between each area (with the odd exception - there's no check in BG1 for areas with 0 hrs travel time and also not for the route from Beregost to the area immediately south of it (that had a travel time of 0 in vanilla and though BGEE has changed that to 4 hrs they haven't added an ambush check).
The above timing relates specifically to bandits on the route from FAI to Nashkel - there are plenty of other possible encounters with ranged enemies as you note. Some of those you can guarantee to avoid by choosing routes and times, but not all of them.
Very interesting, though I've still been ambushed in short area transitions that pit me in the ambush area during daylight hours. The probability is much lower, however. I thought I'd narrowed that safe time window from hour 7 to hour 17, but this is just based on me making notes about when I've been ambushed the most - it's not scientific at all. And, of course, invariably I'll get complacent and forget to check the time sometimes, too. All this said, regardless of when you travel, I still wish these ambushes didn't put you in the center of a shooting gallery which even a first-time player would never allow to happen.
One of my favorite things about BG and other RPGs of its time is that they don't treat you with kiddy gloves. It's a dangerous world: caravans are being raided, wild animals are killers, the suggested route brings you in contact with a level... 4 Mage with Horror.
I'm all in favor of keeping this ambush. Even as a no-reloader, this ambush costs me all of like 10 minutes if I'm careless or unlucky. It's rather like the ridiculous Fireball or lightning bolt traps in Firewine, in my opinion, or triggering Silke at level 1.
I'm really not understanding the opinions that things that could kill you in game should be adjusted.
The game doesn't "care" if you lose, the whole point of any game is to stop you winning. All of them, from snakes and ladders to computer games. There would be no games whatsoever if the emphasis was on people winning rather than being thwarted.
BG is a game, it's not an adventure, it's not a book, it's not a film ect. It doesn't want you to win, it shouldn't want you to see the end credits, they are not part of it's reason to exist. Instant death scenarios if they can be incorporated into a game, any game, and still be logical within the parameters of the design of the game are absolutely what a "game" should be about.
I'm really not understanding the opinions that things that could kill you in game should be adjusted.
But that's not the argument: the argument is that things that kill you unfairly - and which give you no chance of survival should be adjusted.
Should there be ambushes? Yes! Should the game be hard? Yes! I too love how the BG games don't handle you with kid gloves. But games aren't supposed to be unwinnable or unsurvivable. With most of the game's hard challenges you can run away from an enemy when you're under leveled. With the archer ambushes, whether they be human, hobgoblin or skellies, you have no chance. And IMO the lack of realism of those encounters bothers me just as much as the unfairness of them. You'd never let a group of enemies form a tight ring around you when you're exploring wilderness areas. Yet these ambushes take you out of character and put you in an artificial scenario that is immersion-breaking. I say get rid of those ringed ambushes and replace them with more realistic ones, where you're approached by a group of archers and at least have a chance to run.
Maybe think of it more like the bandits having levels in Thief: the ones behind you are hiding in the shadows, and considering there's no Spot checks or anything in BG. It's actually more unbelievable that none of your enemies, known for stealth and banditry, are intelligent enough to try to encircle you before ambushing you. It's also not quite as deadly as you think: I can't recall the last time I've actually died to that ambush. Running and invisibility potions do wonders.
But you can run away from them. Not all of the party, fair enough, but you can get charname away. Swig an invisibilty potion and get lucky and you can run away. Which fits with the setting.
@Neverused That's an interesting point, and if the ambush areas were wooded, it would work for me. Unfortunately they're always open fields and I'm unable to maintain suspension of disbelief. As for survivability, I've had the opposite experience (at least for my party mages, and usually my thieves) - at least until I get those potions of invisibility, or better yet, the level 2 spell of the same name. It's always my first level 2 spell now, ahead of web. I mean, in a party where I'm playing a fighter character I can sometimes survive those ambushes at levels 1-2, but my party mages always die. It doesn't always mean the end of my no-reload run, but I'm sure as heck tired of hauling my mages to temples for resurrection at low levels. I'm getting tempted to just leave them there to save myself a trip.
But if you're playing a mage charname, you're dead, plain and simple. It can take awhile to get those invisibility potions, and you can get ambushed multiple times, sometimes in succession.
Also: as in last post, I'm getting burned out from taking my mages to temples to be resurrected.
The ambush area in question is ar6100, which can spawn the 10-bandit ambush between 8pm and midnight. ar6100 is pretty much the ambush area for traveling along the main road and the area itself has a north-south cobbled path. It's used as the ambush area starting in the north with Wyrm's Crossing, the ankheg farm/Ajantis' area, FAI, area south of FAI, Lion's Way (where Gorion gets ambushed), Beregost, south of Beregost, and north of Nashkel. Ambushes occur roughly 5% for each area traveled.
In defense of the ambush the bandits are AC 10, thac0 20, 8 hp level 1 fighters (with no stat bonuses) armed with bows and swords and wearing leather. It's the quantity of the attackers that makes them dangerous.
It's the quantity of the attackers that makes them dangerous.
And the fact that you're effectively teleported into the middle of a perfect ring of them and thus can't run before getting shot. And with SCS, they're all targeting your mage. If they were to approach you from the top or side of the screen, you'd have a more realistic - and survivable encounter.
Are the skeleton and hobgoblin archers part of the ar6100?
Well, it's more noticeable in a no-reload run and with SCS for sure, but that ambush has reeked of cheese to me since the first time it ever happened, nearly 20 years ago. Personally I agree with the OP that it should be gotten rid of, but to each their own. Maybe there will be an option to remove it in Tweaks or another mod some day, who knows?
That ambush should come up only on high difficulty levels, you would know at least that the game is not easy after selecting that difficulty level. The Demon Knight and Aec are nasty enemies and it's quite normal to expect a difficult battle but this encounter it's extremely annoying for early parties. In case of the Demon Knight you realize that you are outmatched if you cannot defeat the armored suits on the way to the tower.
That ambush is incredibly important to set the tone of this games difficulty. Its not like modern day games. It doesn't want you to win (shoutout at @UnderstandMouseMagic 's comment). This game will (at times) kill you with no warning. Be prepared and roll with the punches. Or reload.
I get the ambush going from the area next to Candlekeep to the area under the Friendly Arm Inn and the area between the FAI and the area under it. I play with no craeted party so I have 4 characters (me, Imoen, Zxar, Montorn). Difficult encounters is not the issue (as mentioned above). You will die without hope of getting out is an issue.
Why do we have this one thing in the entire game where there are no option to avoid?
I get the ambush going from the area next to Candlekeep to the area under the Friendly Arm Inn and the area between the FAI and the area under it. I play with no craeted party so I have 4 characters (me, Imoen, Zxar, Montorn). Difficult encounters is not the issue (as mentioned above). You will die without hope of getting out is an issue.
Why do we have this one thing in the entire game where there are no option to avoid?
I posted above 2 ways in which you can avoid any possibility of a bandit ambush in both the routes you refer to. They take a bit of time and care, true and wouldn't be done by someone playing the game as a relative novice. However, you were expected to die as a novice when playing this game and plenty of people like BG because it's far less forgiving than most more recent games.
I also don't think this ambush particularly stands out - there are multiple things in the game that can kill you if you don't prepare in advance for them or are not aware of the potential problems. Here are a few hurdles for an unprepared party that I would suggest are at least as bad as that bandit ambush: - sleep for low level characters from Tarnesh or an ogre mage (in Arabelle's area or an ambush zone in the Cloud Peak mountains). - walking into a group of several ankhegs. - a number of conversations in which the wrong answer leads to an automatic death. - taking liberties with important characters like Gorion. - not being protected against lightning when telling Silke you won't do her dirty work. - running into Neera unexpectedly. - thinking Kahrk is just another ogre mage. - getting stuck in one of the many web traps in the game. - being ambushed by a basilisk.
Comments
EDIT: I guess I see this as the one battle where you cannot decide to avoid it and run. All other ambushes I can run from with a good chance of getting away.
The game's built around making judicious use of the save feature. You're expected to die many times, but it's fine because they've enabled you to save frequently.
There's no real consequence to dying in an ambush. You just lose like ten seconds of play time.
I generally just try to just battle through it. Sometimes I win, other times I'll loose someone, or worse.
I just try to do what's best in the situation. I'll send (resilient) fighters straight into melee with particular archers knowing they'll probably draw the fire of the archers on either side. (So I don't attack the archers on either side as they're occupied). For other archers, I'll use sleep, command, etc. to try to disable them. And, if I see a particular archer targetting my weaker characters I'll try to focus fire them down with ranged characters.
It might improve the game if there was one or two less archers, at level 1, as this kind of ambush seems disproportionately hard.
Another hard encounter is when you run into a couple of black talon elite archers with their splint mail and ice arrows at level one.
With the ambush though, has anyone tried not attacking them but just running north off the top of the screen. I've not tried it but I assume you quickly get out of range of the archers near the bottom.
If a group of 4-6 adventurers can be slaughtered in an ambush like that, imagine a merchant caravan?
It shows the player why things are so bad
I agree these encounters should be removed. Not only are they too hard, they're stupidly unrealistic and immersion-breaking. Have you ever, while traveling on a wilderness map, allowed a group of enemies to completely circle around you in an area with clear visibility? No, of course not. You'd never let it happen - but this mechanic assumes that you've done just that.
Removing this was one of the things I'd hoped to see in Enhanced Editions. I also would love to see a way to control the number of random encounters in the game in the options menu. You can alter resting encounters in Tweaks, but a comprehensive menu for all random encounters would be great. Love trash mobs? Crank 'em up! Hate them? Simply lower their frequency or turn them off entirely.
The above timing relates specifically to bandits on the route from FAI to Nashkel - there are plenty of other possible encounters with ranged enemies as you note. Some of those you can guarantee to avoid by choosing routes and times, but not all of them.
I'm all in favor of keeping this ambush. Even as a no-reloader, this ambush costs me all of like 10 minutes if I'm careless or unlucky. It's rather like the ridiculous Fireball or lightning bolt traps in Firewine, in my opinion, or triggering Silke at level 1.
The game doesn't "care" if you lose, the whole point of any game is to stop you winning. All of them, from snakes and ladders to computer games.
There would be no games whatsoever if the emphasis was on people winning rather than being thwarted.
BG is a game, it's not an adventure, it's not a book, it's not a film ect.
It doesn't want you to win, it shouldn't want you to see the end credits, they are not part of it's reason to exist.
Instant death scenarios if they can be incorporated into a game, any game, and still be logical within the parameters of the design of the game are absolutely what a "game" should be about.
Should there be ambushes? Yes! Should the game be hard? Yes! I too love how the BG games don't handle you with kid gloves. But games aren't supposed to be unwinnable or unsurvivable. With most of the game's hard challenges you can run away from an enemy when you're under leveled. With the archer ambushes, whether they be human, hobgoblin or skellies, you have no chance. And IMO the lack of realism of those encounters bothers me just as much as the unfairness of them. You'd never let a group of enemies form a tight ring around you when you're exploring wilderness areas. Yet these ambushes take you out of character and put you in an artificial scenario that is immersion-breaking. I say get rid of those ringed ambushes and replace them with more realistic ones, where you're approached by a group of archers and at least have a chance to run.
But you can run away from them. Not all of the party, fair enough, but you can get charname away. Swig an invisibilty potion and get lucky and you can run away.
Which fits with the setting.
But if you're playing a mage charname, you're dead, plain and simple. It can take awhile to get those invisibility potions, and you can get ambushed multiple times, sometimes in succession.
Also: as in last post, I'm getting burned out from taking my mages to temples to be resurrected.
In defense of the ambush the bandits are AC 10, thac0 20, 8 hp level 1 fighters (with no stat bonuses) armed with bows and swords and wearing leather. It's the quantity of the attackers that makes them dangerous.
Are the skeleton and hobgoblin archers part of the ar6100?
At that point it sounds like the issue is more on your end than with the game.
And I'm loving it!!!
Why do we have this one thing in the entire game where there are no option to avoid?
I also don't think this ambush particularly stands out - there are multiple things in the game that can kill you if you don't prepare in advance for them or are not aware of the potential problems. Here are a few hurdles for an unprepared party that I would suggest are at least as bad as that bandit ambush:
- sleep for low level characters from Tarnesh or an ogre mage (in Arabelle's area or an ambush zone in the Cloud Peak mountains).
- walking into a group of several ankhegs.
- a number of conversations in which the wrong answer leads to an automatic death.
- taking liberties with important characters like Gorion.
- not being protected against lightning when telling Silke you won't do her dirty work.
- running into Neera unexpectedly.
- thinking Kahrk is just another ogre mage.
- getting stuck in one of the many web traps in the game.
- being ambushed by a basilisk.