Yeah grandmastery in comparison to specialization will net you a +2 to hit and +3 to damage plus an extra 1/2 attack per round which turns into 1 extra attack with improved haste. Since the game is locked at 10APR the extra attack makes no difference if you can achieve 10APR without, grandmastery which you can. A single class warrior can't use the scimitar of the brother hood +3 so he will only hit 9APR a round even with grandmastery.
The racial restrictions of FMT would be a downer for strength bonuses but with CF it will push you to the game engine limit so that's a non issue as well. The only benefit that a single class warrior with grandmastery will have over a FMT is +5 to hit and +3 to damage if he also uses CF but he will have 1 less attack a round in the end. In my experience a THAC0 of -10 will consistently hit anything in the game so the +5 to hit is not really important at the end game and the +3 to damage is made up for by having an extra attack a round. What does matter is when you get that THAC0 and during SOA the FMT will hit a low point which is it's biggest flaw.
This is only the case if you fully optimize your FMT to the fullest though which requires a very concentrated path while the warrior is fully effective with a larger assortment of options.
Still, being able to achieve a near single class fighter level of fighting ability while having mage protections and thief ultra damage combos is just unmatchable in the end.
In order to get specialization in scimitar, Katana and hammer with 3 points in dual wield, I had to go without long range proficiency. Bracers of archery with an elf's 19 dex and natural bow bonus will keep you up with the composite long bow even with no pips during BGEE. It will seriously match Minsc or Khalid the entire game with no pips at all. In SOD and later I would have started to fall behind but at that point I switched to full on dual wield and gave up long range. I keep a returning throwing dagger with it's strength bonus damage in SOA just in case I need some long range attacks but that is about it. This allowed me to dual wield scimitars in BGEE, scimitars and katana's in SOD, scimitars and hammer with an optional main hand scimitar for backstabbing in late SOA and TOB. All specialized with full dual wield ability finishing off around TOB.
Ha ha. I started playing the game with vanilla fighters back in the day. I'm actually glad that I did because I think it would be hard to go back at this point. It was fun but now I am used to doing a whole lot more. I do think playing as a vanilla fighter forces you to play more tactfully. You pay attention to the land lay out and weapon range more often and you have to time character movements more carefully to avoid being ripped apart without magic protection while applying brute force at the correct moment.
That's the thing though, grandmastery would give the kensai a +3 bonus to hit over specialization and his kit bonus would give him an additional +4 to hit if he dueled at level 13 but he stops progressing as a fighter at that point so he actually falls 1 point short of a normal fighter or a fighter/mage dual by the end of the game. He can't use bracers either so he will lose an extra half attack a round in TOB and he will go without the bracer benifits of +1 to hit +2 to damage in BGEE. The only benefit he really gets is +7 to damage and the Kai ability. That is nice but you can get higher APR without the pains of dual classing or playing as an armorless single class kensai in BGEE by going with a FMT. Not to mention all of the thief and fighter HLA's and the synergy that they bring when combined together.
What does matter is when you get that THAC0 and during SOA the FMT will hit a low point which is it's biggest flaw.
In fact, imho the biggest flaw of a FMT is how long it takes them before they can cast the better (high-level) spells, when you compare them to a low-level dual. A dual zerker[9]>mage is rocking Improved Haste very early in SoA. Now that makes a real difference.
By the time you reach ToB, yes, a FMT starts to pay off.. but even then, a dual is ahead in the number of spell slots, especially level 9 slots. That is a major factor. Time stop alone, for example, is just monstrous - it makes Thac0 and AC completely irrelevant, at least while the spell lasts..
Yeah but the FMT has time stop traps. 7 of them in the end and nothing is stopping a fellow mage from casting improved haste on him in SOA. While all 7 timestop traps go off one after another you are doing quintuple backstab damage the whole time thanks to mislead. You also have higher APR thanks to UAI and critical strike fighter HLA double damage. The FMT is behind during the mid point of SOA though. I have no argument about that. All things considered, TOB on LOB mode with SCS is much more manageable with FMT due to all of the crazy damage combos.
It's a new difficulty mode that Beamdog ported over from icewind dale. It's pretty much heart of fury mode for Baldur's gate without the XP bonuses. Very hard. If you try SCS I think that you will find it to be great. You can customize how hard you want it to be and it's improvements to AI make the game much more fun in my opinion.
In TOB the FMT reaches level 18 fighter class which has a base THAC0 of 3 combined with CF and he has -12 main hand and -11 off hand with 10APR and massive strength bonus damage. Since his APR is natural 10 you can enable critical strike for 10APR double damage and cast mislead for 10APR X5 BackstabX2 critical strike.
Just to be clear, by Natural 10 APR, you mean Natural 5, 10 with Improved Haste, right?
I was under the impression it was impossible to get more than a natural 5.
Yeah 5 APR or 10 with improved haste vs a fighter with 4.5 APR or 9 with improved haste.
Basically you have: FMT 1APR 1.5 at level 7 warrior 2 at level 13 warrior 2.5 with weapons proficiency 3.5 with dual wielding 4.5 with speed weapon 5 with bracers of extra specialization
Most fighter mages or pure class fighter will have to use: 1APR 1.5 at level 7 warrior 2 at level 13 warrior 3 with grandmastery 4 with dual wield 4.5 with bracers of extra specialization The warrior could max out at 10 APR with a speed weapon at level 13 during SOA but they will want to give up that speed weapon since they can only use +2 speed weapons. They would be better off using two grandmastered weapons for more passive bonuses in TOB.
The problem is that the only speed weapon that can hit enemies in TOB is the +3 scimitar for monks only. A FMT has UAI so he can use it and it gives him the edge in APR over any other combo. Using Crom Feyer in the main hand with the brotherhood scimitar in the off hand is the most damaging weapon combo in the game. 10 APR, 25 strength for massive THAC0 and damage bonus. Instant kill of Golems and electrical damage that interrupts casters while the brotherhood scimitar poisons the caster for further damage and interrupt.
I Keep celestial fury around as a secondary main hand weapon for backstabs and then replace it with spectral brand in TOB. You lose the strength bonus when you switch to it so I always have potions of strength around for when I want to pull of an epic backstab combo.
Most fighter mages or pure class fighter will have to use: 1APR 1.5 at level 7 warrior 2 at level 13 warrior 3 with grandmastery 4 with dual wield 4.5 with bracers of extra specialization
You missed 1 point of APR from speedweapon for the fighter>mage dual. After dual at 9 and without the bracers I am at 4.5 total (so 9 with IH). The bracers come really late in ToB and you might want another character to use them, so I prefer to leave them out of the comparison. But with them I would be at 5 now.
Crom Feyer is not as damaging as Black Blade of Disaster, by the way. I know it can destroy loot, but in many fights that doesn't matter.
The advantage of SNT over Belm is fairly minor imho. The off-hand weapon only swings one time in a round, that's still true with Improved Haste. So you miss one swing out of 9 or 10 against monsters that are immune to +2 weapons.
+2 weapon isn't going to cut it in TOB. It will miss every time and it will attack 1 a round or 2 times under improved haste. So you are effectively only hitting 8 times around vs 10 for a FMT. Even if improved haste allowed you to attack 9 times with your main hand, using two grandmastered +3 weapons you will hit the same 9 times a round with more passive bonuses so it's your best bet in my opinion. I use the bracers of extra specialization but it can be a benefit of not having your main character using it so you can give it to someone else. Personally, my character does more damage so it benefits the party more to have him get the extra APR rather than someone else. Black blade is pretty good but I prefer CF because you always have the 25 strength and it's a +5 weapon instead of +3. It has some nice passive abilities and no loot destruction. You could always give black blade to someone else though right? I will admit I usually don't use the black blade of disaster despite it being a very hardcore weapon. CF also comes alonge a little earlier and really comes in handy against those golems at the elven city.
A handful of bosses in TOB cannot be hit with anything less than +5 or greater weapons so black blade of disaster in combo with a +2 speed weapon would render your character useless against some of the hardest fights in the game.
So you are effectively only hitting 8 times around vs 10 for a FMT.
No, the difference is one swing, not two. That's what I was saying. Nine times versus ten. If you grandmaster your main weapon and you wear the bracers, you have 10 swings under IH. All else being equal, (bracers or not), the number of swings are equal, before substracting the one swing from the offhand if the monster is immune to +2 weapons.
If you really care about that one swing, notice that a single cast of Enchanted Weapon lasts very long and makes it hit as +3.
By the way, Black Blade of Disaster is not the most damaging weapon if we also take ShapeChange:Mindflayer + TimeStop into account. That can drop entire groups of monsters at a speed that no weapon can match.
You swing 10 times but you can only hit 9 times so you are getting 9 attacks a round basically. I updated my post above but you could get 9 APR without using a speed weapon and all 9 attacks would hit plus you would get more passive bonuses like armor class and magical protection ect by using a better offhand weapon with a much higher to hit bonus.
BTW if that is true about off hand only swinging once under improved haste then I learned something new. I doesn't make sense but then again the Infinity engine doesn't always follow logic.
If you used the axe of unyielding in your offhand you would have a vorprol hit chance with a +1 armor class bonus,+3HP regeneration and a +1 constitution while still hitting 9 times a round and you would have a +3 bonus to hit on top of it all and it would hit all boss enemies without issue. You would need to use the bracers though so it depends on what you would be losing by using them yourself. decisions, decisions.
I'm honestly not sure why it matters since enemies in BG2 mostly come in two speeds - normal and boss-level. The FMT will have more (G)Whirlwinds when he needs them (like for dualwielding non-APR boosting weapons) and he can just keep using APR-boosting weapons otherwise. I mean, what else are you going to use your ridiculous amount of extra HLA points for? One can only have so many trap HLAs. The Kensai-Mage actually has a unique advantage similar to the Blade bard kit in the form of Melf's Minute Meteors + Kai, which lets him hit 5 attacks per round at maximum damage per round in SoA (assuming you dual at 9, which is ideal IMO) while other warrior-types are still struggling with juggling buffs, gear and APR/non-APR weapons. For a quite a while he will be hampered by his lower casting level, but at least the option is there (ie, being able to inflict massive amounts of pain while standing still/not having to constantly reposition to dodge spells/attacks).
If you can get 10 APR without greater whirlwind using improved haste and it lasts much longer then you might as well use critical strike instead of greater whirlwind. That way you get 10 double damage attacks instead of just 10 attacks. Of course backstab with mislead is a 40 (80 if you are using critical strike) damage multiplier cherry on top
The Kensai mage can't use bracers so his kit bonuses don't do much for him in BGEE. He has no armor and has to be babied. In BG2EE you have to start over as a level 1 mage so he is a liability there to. When he gets his fighter abilities back, that is where he shines. He has a Thaco that will match most other classes at end game and a nice damage bonus plus his extra warrior APR and grandmaster bonus is gained at fighter progression levels early on. He has fighter HP and has magical protections, in the end he can learn some nice spells at times in the game where they are truly helpful. Still, the other classes catch up to him at the end game and he is a total pain all of BGEE, SOD, and the start of SOA. I don't really like to play them myself.
Most fighter mages or pure class fighter will have to use: 1APR 1.5 at level 7 warrior 2 at level 13 warrior 3 with grandmastery 4 with dual wield 4.5 with bracers of extra specialization
You missed 1 point of APR from speedweapon for the fighter>mage dual. After dual at 9 and without the bracers I am at 4.5 total (so 9 with IH). The bracers come really late in ToB and you might want another character to use them, so I prefer to leave them out of the comparison. But with them I would be at 5 now.
Crom Feyer is not as damaging as Black Blade of Disaster, by the way. I know it can destroy loot, but in many fights that doesn't matter.
The advantage of SNT over Belm is fairly minor imho. The off-hand weapon only swings one time in a round, that's still true with Improved Haste. So you miss one swing out of 9 or 10 against monsters that are immune to +2 weapons.
Ah, I think I misunderstood you regarding black blade of disaster, I got it confused with black razer. BBOD isn't really a weapon though, it's level 9 spell. You would have to use 1 or more of your limited level 9 spell slots to use it and you would have to rest a bunch if you planned on using a spell in place of an actual weapon.
Black blade of disaster does 2-24 damage per hit so the average would be 11+2=13 average CF does 2D4+3 +5 electrical So CF does 10+3=13 average
CF also gives a strength bonus of +4 damage for characters who made evil choices in hell (22 strength) or +7 damage bonus for characters who made good choices (20 strength) This bonus is guaranteed bonus damage over a maxed out F/M strength without CF. It also gives a +3 or +4 to hit from the strength bonus depending on your choices.
So CF with specialization is actually doing more damage with the same to hit over BBOD with end game strength (Including grandmaster bonuses)
CF isn't a spell and doesn't need to use spell slots though, it kills golems instantly plus it's electrical damage disrupts mages and you get it long before your strength can max out. It also boosts your off hand to hit and damage bonuses.
BBOD does have a 10% chance to heal you 20HP and it does have an outright chance of disintegrating an enemy. I'll give you that but with +4 to save, I don't think it will work very much on LOB mode and it destroys loot.
According to this thread, https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/7042/when-hasted-if-dual-wielding-does-the-off-hand-still-only-get-one-attack you get two attacks with the offhand with improved haste so your character will in fact only hit 8 times a round using the speed weapon in TOB. This is with the enhanced editions though. It may be different with the original version of the game. Basically, the extra attack per a round is granted to your main hand but the 1 attack you get with the offhand it doubled to 2 attacks under improved haste.(makes more sense that way). So you would benefit more buy simply replacing it with a weapon that is of +3 enchantment or better with the bracers of extra specialization. (You lose one main hand attack but gain 2 offhand attacks that will hit.) In SOA with a speed weapon and grandmastery with a level 13 dual class you could possibly hit 5 APR for a small portion of the game before TOB. If you dual before level 13 it's impossible to hit true 10APR with a dual class at any point. You will have either 9APR that hit or 10APR but only 8 will hit.
A FMT using the brotherhood ninja to will gain two attacks with the off hand that hit while still benefiting from the main hand speed boost for a true 10APR. The brotherhood does 1D8+3 +2-6 poison damage for two rounds and the poison can stack. These two attacks will be boosted by CF strength to hit and damage with more bonuses like HLA Critical Strike double damage and bracer damage bonus. On average you gain 19% more damage per round with this setup. 10% more vs 9APR. However, grand mastery damage on dual classed characters plus kit bonus damage should close the gap making them about equal in damage if they both use CF and the dual class is pushing 9APR.
According to this thread, https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/7042/when-hasted-if-dual-wielding-does-the-off-hand-still-only-get-one-attack you get two attacks with the offhand with improved haste so your character will in fact only hit 8 times a round using the speed weapon in TOB. This is with the enhanced editions though. It may be different with the original version of the game. Basically, the extra attack per a round is granted to your main hand but the 1 attack you get with the offhand it doubled to 2 attacks under improved haste.(makes more sense that way).
Now I learned something new, thanks!
I am going to test this by hand, just to be sure. If it is really true, Enchanted Weapon is a better spell than I thought. Please do note that this spell provides a workaround - it makes Belm hit as +3.
edit: tested this on Cespenar, it seems you are right, wow.. by the way I got my wrong info about this from older forum posts.
Enchanted weapon has become more useful in the enhanced editions as it can be used to help keep weapons in rotation in TOB for a generous 24hr period in exchange for a spell slot. My only problem with it is it has to fight for space with improved invisibility, multiple stone skins, and spirit Armor, greater malison and secret word. You also have to remember to cast it everytime you sleep and you have to worry about it being dispelled. It is a viable option but if it were me I think I would push 9APR with a +5 off hand weapon that grants special abilities. I wouldn't fault you for using it though. It requires a little more work and risk but you could push the bracers of extra specialization on someone else for an extra attack with improved haste.
EDIT:
I just remembered you said you dueled a level 9. So no level 13 half attack a round. Now I get it. You can't get 9APR so you would be stuck at 8APR even with the bracers of extra specialization if you don't enchant the speed weapon.
1APR 1.5 for level 7 warrior 2.5 for grand master 3.5 for dual wield 4.5 for speed weapon (enchantment required) 5 with bracers of extra weapon specialization.
By the way, I just checked what my character would have looked like if he had been a F/M/T instead of a Ber>Mage dual.
So I am deep into ToB with a 3-character party: level 4 of WK, Yara-Sharu is dead.
Right now I am just over 7 million total xp. I completed every sidequest in SoA, but didn't go out of my way to grind for more xp.
My main is now a level 28 mage, with 4 level 9 spell slots and 6 level 8 (with Circlet). Had I been a F/M/T, I would have been a level 16 mage. That would mean NO level 9 spell slots yet, and only 2 level 8 spells with the circlet.
So even in ToB, a dual is going to be a dramatically better caster. A F/M/T is not necessarily stronger in ToB, just different. If you want to solo the game, I agree it is the best option. In a party, I still think it is too slow to be worth it.
FMT has a 5 point THAC0 advantage FMT has armor class advantage FMT has true 10APR FMT has up to 7 timestop traps (no spell slots) FMT has spike traps(think Dragon breath or comet damage without using spell slots) FMT can use detect illusions, pick locks, find traps FMT has x5 damage backstab and Assasination FMT has crititical strike double damage FMT has Hardiness damage resistance=40% FMT can use mislead for nonstop quintuple damage FMT has no down time to dual class Berserker mage has 4 point damage advantage Berserker Mage has HP advantage Berserker Mage can cast 4 timestops (has to give up all other level 9 spells to do so) Berserker mage can cast dragon breath or comet (Less timestops) Berserker mage has temporary 10APR with inferior off hand weapon Berserker mage has more level 8 protections or simulacrums Berserker mage has temporary immunities If you are not using CF then you have no damage advantage and a 9 point thaco disadvantage
To sum it up, basically the Berserker mage has a few more level 8 protections, temporary immunities with a small HP boost while the FMT has no down time and does 2-20X more damage with better thac0 and armor and most of his advantages don't rely on limited spell slots. (Less casting while in battle the better.)
I used to feel the same way but my only advice is to actually try it and see what you think. I had a huge 3 page argument one time arguing the same point you are now and I too used EE keeper to load up a maxed out FMT to see what it was all about but in the end I gave it a shot with an open mind and well...if you try it from level one to completion you will know what I'm talking about.
My level 8 slots are primarily used for simulacrums. Level 7: mainly for project image.
Timestop is a killer spell when you combine it with ShapeChange:mindflayer. This lets you effectively deal damage on par with backstabs: even very tough enemies fall easily.
How many times can I do this without resting? Much more often than four times. Every Project Image gives me two more timestops, and yes, a projected image can shapechange into a mindflayer too. Maybe it is a bug, I don´t know. Every projected image *also* gives me another planetar.
Regarding planetars, they´re not just tanks. They are melee-capable casters, with a large supply of clerical spells, including Insect Plagues and three full heals.
Then the simulacrums can *also* cast most of my spells. If that wasn't enough, they also increase the melee damage I can do myself by +100%. This should be taken into account in a damage comparison.
In total, I can cast TimeStop about 10 times before resting with the spell setup I use. If I wanted I could easily change spell slots for more castings (up to 44), but it would be overkill.
And when you compare this with TimeStop traps, you need to take into account that a monster has to walk into your trap first. Casting it yourself gives you more control. The traps are not exactly as good.
Then there is Chain Contingency. I do not nearly use that spell to its full potential, but it is extremely strong. Triple horrid wilting on sight, and many other possibilities.
Finally, you mentioned Backstabbing and Critting. These are no doubt the strong points of a FMT. But many monsters are immune to critical hits and boss monsters in ToB are usually immune to backstabs as well.
Ok, one final point. The down time of a dual. This is why I say you should dual at level 9. It makes the down time very short. If you time it well, it´s basically painless. A level 13 dual has a horrible downtime and I would never do that, personally.
All in all, I still think those are two types of characters that are completely different. I still find it hard to believe that a FMT is strictly stronger than a dual, even near the end of the game. When you play solo, yes. But in a party? I'm not convinced. Although again - you did make me curious.
I might not be the best person to try and explain this but I'll give it a go.
I use magic to increase my ability to do brute force melee damage above all else. A FMT benefits from this style more than a FM. A planetar is great and if you play on LOB mode it's even more useful. However, you are mixing mage utility with a fighter while I am focusing my FMT on pure combat and letting my mages do all of the magic abuse. The game I am playing is using different rules than the one you are playing and so it's hard to compare.
SCS for example, will not allow you to cast more than one plantar at once. If that is the case why would you want your warrior to sacrifice power towards planetar when a mage could cover that? I have two mages that can cast timestop and shapechange or imprisonment ect. What makes the FMT special is he is all warrior with magical enhancement for his warrior ability. You can pick up any mage to do those things you mentioned but you can't pick up warrior that can compete with a F/M warrior or FMT warrior in game. What makes them special is not magic utility but fighting force. The F/M doesn't have better magic casting ability than a pure class mage but he does have superior fighting ability to a pure class fighter.
I don't miss level 9 HLA's at all. 7 timestop traps will give you far more timestop than two time stop spells and even if the an enemy is immune to backstab or critical strike, with 10 APR you are going to waste them. Large mobs of enemies in LOB mode have so many hitpoints that the X5 backstabs with X2 double damage for 2X longer timestop will make a huge difference for you. SCS also adds pre buffing for enemy casters and LOB mode increases immunities. It changes the game and I know from experience that some of the FMT benefits don't seem necessary or as beneficial when you are playing on lower difficulty settings. I argued that same point at one time. For example, a timestop trap will go off before a mage can throw up contingencies but if you are using the spell timestop it's going to go off after the enemy contingencies are up and now you won't be able to do physical damage to them. With a timestop trap you will be ripping the enemy to pieces under the same circumstances. I'm coming from the stand point of LOB difficulty with SCS full install. This is what truly makes the FMT's raw damage and added stamina come into full bloom.
That being said, if you focus your magic users on magic abuse and push your fighter mage toward pure brute force you will find that the advantages of the F/M are not as good as those of a FMT. It's a character that has a unique mix of mage utility and brute force. That is what it is intended to be and there is nothing wrong with it. In my opinion, a more optimized party and character would focus the mages on pure magic abuse and utilize the FMT for raw damage which is what the FMT will excel at. Simulacrum is still great and magic protections before battle are very nice but other than that, the FMT is more focused on uninterrupted brute force during battle. Which is more beneficial to the party overall in my opinion.
I use my FMT's magic to enhance protection and brute force damage output while mages use magic to do the magic based abuses like planetar, imprisonment, project image ect. The Berserker mage is sacrificing his warrior ability to do more of the same stuff a pure class NPC mage is already doing at an earlier stage in the game.
Again, different rules. Those abuses are not possible in my game. If they were then I suppose I could project image 100 timestop traps or some nonsense. Or clone a character with timestop scrolls in his inventory for infinite abuse.
At present, clones can use magic items belonging to their creator - even one-shot items - which arguably isn't what the spell is intended to do. This component blocks use of useable items, by greying out the quick-item bar for clones. Magic weapons, armour, and protective devices still function normally."
But AFAIK SCS does not prevent your Simulacrum/PI from casting spells from your spellbook. There would be little point in Project Image if the image couldn´t cast your spells.
Comments
The racial restrictions of FMT would be a downer for strength bonuses but with CF it will push you to the game engine limit so that's a non issue as well. The only benefit that a single class warrior with grandmastery will have over a FMT is +5 to hit and +3 to damage if he also uses CF but he will have 1 less attack a round in the end. In my experience a THAC0 of -10 will consistently hit anything in the game so the +5 to hit is not really important at the end game and the +3 to damage is made up for by having an extra attack a round. What does matter is when you get that THAC0 and during SOA the FMT will hit a low point which is it's biggest flaw.
This is only the case if you fully optimize your FMT to the fullest though which requires a very concentrated path while the warrior is fully effective with a larger assortment of options.
Still, being able to achieve a near single class fighter level of fighting ability while having mage protections and thief ultra damage combos is just unmatchable in the end.
In order to get specialization in scimitar, Katana and hammer with 3 points in dual wield, I had to go without long range proficiency. Bracers of archery with an elf's 19 dex and natural bow bonus will keep you up with the composite long bow even with no pips during BGEE. It will seriously match Minsc or Khalid the entire game with no pips at all. In SOD and later I would have started to fall behind but at that point I switched to full on dual wield and gave up long range. I keep a returning throwing dagger with it's strength bonus damage in SOA just in case I need some long range attacks but that is about it. This allowed me to dual wield scimitars in BGEE, scimitars and katana's in SOD, scimitars and hammer with an optional main hand scimitar for backstabbing in late SOA and TOB. All specialized with full dual wield ability finishing off around TOB.
Though I guess if you dual over to a more fun class it wouldn't be so bad.
By the time you reach ToB, yes, a FMT starts to pay off.. but even then, a dual is ahead in the number of spell slots, especially level 9 slots. That is a major factor. Time stop alone, for example, is just monstrous - it makes Thac0 and AC completely irrelevant, at least while the spell lasts..
I was under the impression it was impossible to get more than a natural 5.
Basically you have:
FMT
1APR
1.5 at level 7 warrior
2 at level 13 warrior
2.5 with weapons proficiency
3.5 with dual wielding
4.5 with speed weapon
5 with bracers of extra specialization
Most fighter mages or pure class fighter will have to use:
1APR
1.5 at level 7 warrior
2 at level 13 warrior
3 with grandmastery
4 with dual wield
4.5 with bracers of extra specialization
The warrior could max out at 10 APR with a speed weapon at level 13 during SOA but they will want to give up that speed weapon since they can only use +2 speed weapons. They would be better off using two grandmastered weapons for more passive bonuses in TOB.
The problem is that the only speed weapon that can hit enemies in TOB is the +3 scimitar for monks only. A FMT has UAI so he can use it and it gives him the edge in APR over any other combo. Using Crom Feyer in the main hand with the brotherhood scimitar in the off hand is the most damaging weapon combo in the game. 10 APR, 25 strength for massive THAC0 and damage bonus. Instant kill of Golems and electrical damage that interrupts casters while the brotherhood scimitar poisons the caster for further damage and interrupt.
I Keep celestial fury around as a secondary main hand weapon for backstabs and then replace it with spectral brand in TOB. You lose the strength bonus when you switch to it so I always have potions of strength around for when I want to pull of an epic backstab combo.
Crom Feyer is not as damaging as Black Blade of Disaster, by the way.
The advantage of SNT over Belm is fairly minor imho. The off-hand weapon only swings one time in a round, that's still true with Improved Haste. So you miss one swing out of 9 or 10 against monsters that are immune to +2 weapons.
A handful of bosses in TOB cannot be hit with anything less than +5 or greater weapons so black blade of disaster in combo with a +2 speed weapon would render your character useless against some of the hardest fights in the game.
If you really care about that one swing, notice that a single cast of Enchanted Weapon lasts very long and makes it hit as +3.
By the way, Black Blade of Disaster is not the most damaging weapon if we also take ShapeChange:Mindflayer + TimeStop into account.
BTW if that is true about off hand only swinging once under improved haste then I learned something new. I doesn't make sense but then again the Infinity engine doesn't always follow logic.
If you used the axe of unyielding in your offhand you would have a vorprol hit chance with a +1 armor class bonus,+3HP regeneration and a +1 constitution while still hitting 9 times a round and you would have a +3 bonus to hit on top of it all and it would hit all boss enemies without issue. You would need to use the bracers though so it depends on what you would be losing by using them yourself. decisions, decisions.
The Kensai-Mage actually has a unique advantage similar to the Blade bard kit in the form of Melf's Minute Meteors + Kai, which lets him hit 5 attacks per round at maximum damage per round in SoA (assuming you dual at 9, which is ideal IMO) while other warrior-types are still struggling with juggling buffs, gear and APR/non-APR weapons. For a quite a while he will be hampered by his lower casting level, but at least the option is there (ie, being able to inflict massive amounts of pain while standing still/not having to constantly reposition to dodge spells/attacks).
The Kensai mage can't use bracers so his kit bonuses don't do much for him in BGEE. He has no armor and has to be babied. In BG2EE you have to start over as a level 1 mage so he is a liability there to. When he gets his fighter abilities back, that is where he shines. He has a Thaco that will match most other classes at end game and a nice damage bonus plus his extra warrior APR and grandmaster bonus is gained at fighter progression levels early on. He has fighter HP and has magical protections, in the end he can learn some nice spells at times in the game where they are truly helpful. Still, the other classes catch up to him at the end game and he is a total pain all of BGEE, SOD, and the start of SOA. I don't really like to play them myself.
Black blade of disaster does 2-24 damage per hit so the average would be 11+2=13 average
CF does 2D4+3 +5 electrical So CF does 10+3=13 average
CF also gives a strength bonus of +4 damage for characters who made evil choices in hell (22 strength) or +7 damage bonus for characters who made good choices (20 strength)
This bonus is guaranteed bonus damage over a maxed out F/M strength without CF. It also gives a +3 or +4 to hit from the strength bonus depending on your choices.
So CF with specialization is actually doing more damage with the same to hit over BBOD with end game strength (Including grandmaster bonuses)
CF isn't a spell and doesn't need to use spell slots though, it kills golems instantly plus it's electrical damage disrupts mages and you get it long before your strength can max out. It also boosts your off hand to hit and damage bonuses.
BBOD does have a 10% chance to heal you 20HP and it does have an outright chance of disintegrating an enemy. I'll give you that but with +4 to save, I don't think it will work very much on LOB mode and it destroys loot.
According to this thread,
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/7042/when-hasted-if-dual-wielding-does-the-off-hand-still-only-get-one-attack
you get two attacks with the offhand with improved haste so your character will in fact only hit 8 times a round using the speed weapon in TOB. This is with the enhanced editions though. It may be different with the original version of the game. Basically, the extra attack per a round is granted to your main hand but the 1 attack you get with the offhand it doubled to 2 attacks under improved haste.(makes more sense that way). So you would benefit more buy simply replacing it with a weapon that is of +3 enchantment or better with the bracers of extra specialization. (You lose one main hand attack but gain 2 offhand attacks that will hit.) In SOA with a speed weapon and grandmastery with a level 13 dual class you could possibly hit 5 APR for a small portion of the game before TOB. If you dual before level 13 it's impossible to hit true 10APR with a dual class at any point. You will have either 9APR that hit or 10APR but only 8 will hit.
A FMT using the brotherhood ninja to will gain two attacks with the off hand that hit while still benefiting from the main hand speed boost for a true 10APR. The brotherhood does 1D8+3 +2-6 poison damage for two rounds and the poison can stack. These two attacks will be boosted by CF strength to hit and damage with more bonuses like HLA Critical Strike double damage and bracer damage bonus. On average you gain 19% more damage per round with this setup. 10% more vs 9APR. However, grand mastery damage on dual classed characters plus kit bonus damage should close the gap making them about equal in damage if they both use CF and the dual class is pushing 9APR.
I am going to test this by hand, just to be sure. If it is really true, Enchanted Weapon is a better spell than I thought. Please do note that this spell provides a workaround - it makes Belm hit as +3.
edit: tested this on Cespenar, it seems you are right, wow.. by the way I got my wrong info about this from older forum posts.
EDIT:
I just remembered you said you dueled a level 9. So no level 13 half attack a round. Now I get it. You can't get 9APR so you would be stuck at 8APR even with the bracers of extra specialization if you don't enchant the speed weapon.
1APR
1.5 for level 7 warrior
2.5 for grand master
3.5 for dual wield
4.5 for speed weapon (enchantment required)
5 with bracers of extra weapon specialization.
Is that correct?
So I am deep into ToB with a 3-character party: level 4 of WK, Yara-Sharu is dead.
Right now I am just over 7 million total xp. I completed every sidequest in SoA, but didn't go out of my way to grind for more xp.
My main is now a level 28 mage, with 4 level 9 spell slots and 6 level 8 (with Circlet). Had I been a F/M/T, I would have been a level 16 mage. That would mean NO level 9 spell slots yet, and only 2 level 8 spells with the circlet.
So even in ToB, a dual is going to be a dramatically better caster. A F/M/T is not necessarily stronger in ToB, just different. If you want to solo the game, I agree it is the best option. In a party, I still think it is too slow to be worth it.
FMT has armor class advantage
FMT has true 10APR
FMT has up to 7 timestop traps (no spell slots)
FMT has spike traps(think Dragon breath or comet damage without using spell slots)
FMT can use detect illusions, pick locks, find traps
FMT has x5 damage backstab and Assasination
FMT has crititical strike double damage
FMT has Hardiness damage resistance=40%
FMT can use mislead for nonstop quintuple damage
FMT has no down time to dual class
Berserker mage has 4 point damage advantage
Berserker Mage has HP advantage
Berserker Mage can cast 4 timestops (has to give up all other level 9 spells to do so)
Berserker mage can cast dragon breath or comet (Less timestops)
Berserker mage has temporary 10APR with inferior off hand weapon
Berserker mage has more level 8 protections or simulacrums
Berserker mage has temporary immunities
If you are not using CF then you have no damage advantage and a 9 point thaco disadvantage
To sum it up, basically the Berserker mage has a few more level 8 protections, temporary immunities with a small HP boost while the FMT has no down time and does 2-20X more damage with better thac0 and armor and most of his advantages don't rely on limited spell slots. (Less casting while in battle the better.)
I used to feel the same way but my only advice is to actually try it and see what you think. I had a huge 3 page argument one time arguing the same point you are now and I too used EE keeper to load up a maxed out FMT to see what it was all about but in the end I gave it a shot with an open mind and well...if you try it from level one to completion you will know what I'm talking about.
That said, I still think high-level magic is much stronger than you make it sound in your last post. Please indulge me to explain why I think so.
First off, Comet and Dragon Breath are exceptionally weak level 9 spells, no need to take them into account.
My level 9 slots are filled as follows:
1. TimeStop
2. TimeStop
3. ShapeChange
4. Planetar
My level 8 slots are primarily used for simulacrums. Level 7: mainly for project image.
Timestop is a killer spell when you combine it with ShapeChange:mindflayer. This lets you effectively deal damage on par with backstabs: even very tough enemies fall easily.
How many times can I do this without resting? Much more often than four times. Every Project Image gives me two more timestops, and yes, a projected image can shapechange into a mindflayer too. Maybe it is a bug, I don´t know. Every projected image *also* gives me another planetar.
Regarding planetars, they´re not just tanks. They are melee-capable casters, with a large supply of clerical spells, including Insect Plagues and three full heals.
Then the simulacrums can *also* cast most of my spells. If that wasn't enough, they also increase the melee damage I can do myself by +100%. This should be taken into account in a damage comparison.
In total, I can cast TimeStop about 10 times before resting with the spell setup I use. If I wanted I could easily change spell slots for more castings (up to 44), but it would be overkill.
And when you compare this with TimeStop traps, you need to take into account that a monster has to walk into your trap first. Casting it yourself gives you more control. The traps are not exactly as good.
Then there is Chain Contingency. I do not nearly use that spell to its full potential, but it is extremely strong. Triple horrid wilting on sight, and many other possibilities.
Finally, you mentioned Backstabbing and Critting. These are no doubt the strong points of a FMT. But many monsters are immune to critical hits and boss monsters in ToB are usually immune to backstabs as well.
Ok, one final point. The down time of a dual. This is why I say you should dual at level 9. It makes the down time very short. If you time it well, it´s basically painless. A level 13 dual has a horrible downtime and I would never do that, personally.
All in all, I still think those are two types of characters that are completely different. I still find it hard to believe that a FMT is strictly stronger than a dual, even near the end of the game. When you play solo, yes. But in a party? I'm not convinced. Although again - you did make me curious.
I use magic to increase my ability to do brute force melee damage above all else. A FMT benefits from this style more than a FM. A planetar is great and if you play on LOB mode it's even more useful. However, you are mixing mage utility with a fighter while I am focusing my FMT on pure combat and letting my mages do all of the magic abuse. The game I am playing is using different rules than the one you are playing and so it's hard to compare.
SCS for example, will not allow you to cast more than one plantar at once. If that is the case why would you want your warrior to sacrifice power towards planetar when a mage could cover that? I have two mages that can cast timestop and shapechange or imprisonment ect. What makes the FMT special is he is all warrior with magical enhancement for his warrior ability. You can pick up any mage to do those things you mentioned but you can't pick up warrior that can compete with a F/M warrior or FMT warrior in game. What makes them special is not magic utility but fighting force. The F/M doesn't have better magic casting ability than a pure class mage but he does have superior fighting ability to a pure class fighter.
I don't miss level 9 HLA's at all. 7 timestop traps will give you far more timestop than two time stop spells and even if the an enemy is immune to backstab or critical strike, with 10 APR you are going to waste them. Large mobs of enemies in LOB mode have so many hitpoints that the X5 backstabs with X2 double damage for 2X longer timestop will make a huge difference for you. SCS also adds pre buffing for enemy casters and LOB mode increases immunities. It changes the game and I know from experience that some of the FMT benefits don't seem necessary or as beneficial when you are playing on lower difficulty settings. I argued that same point at one time. For example, a timestop trap will go off before a mage can throw up contingencies but if you are using the spell timestop it's going to go off after the enemy contingencies are up and now you won't be able to do physical damage to them. With a timestop trap you will be ripping the enemy to pieces under the same circumstances. I'm coming from the stand point of LOB difficulty with SCS full install. This is what truly makes the FMT's raw damage and added stamina come into full bloom.
That being said, if you focus your magic users on magic abuse and push your fighter mage toward pure brute force you will find that the advantages of the F/M are not as good as those of a FMT. It's a character that has a unique mix of mage utility and brute force. That is what it is intended to be and there is nothing wrong with it. In my opinion, a more optimized party and character would focus the mages on pure magic abuse and utilize the FMT for raw damage which is what the FMT will excel at. Simulacrum is still great and magic protections before battle are very nice but other than that, the FMT is more focused on uninterrupted brute force during battle. Which is more beneficial to the party overall in my opinion.
I use my FMT's magic to enhance protection and brute force damage output while mages use magic to do the magic based abuses like planetar, imprisonment, project image ect. The Berserker mage is sacrificing his warrior ability to do more of the same stuff a pure class NPC mage is already doing at an earlier stage in the game.
Having a party with both of these characters is probably the most game breaking thing you can do. A dual F>M is basically an improved pure mage.
http://www.gibberlings3.net/readmes/readme-scs.html#spelltweaks
"Prevent clones made by the Simulacrum and Project Image spells from using their magic items (BG2EE,BG2,BGT)
At present, clones can use magic items belonging to their creator - even one-shot items - which arguably isn't what the spell is intended to do. This component blocks use of useable items, by greying out the quick-item bar for clones. Magic weapons, armour, and protective devices still function normally."
But AFAIK SCS does not prevent your Simulacrum/PI from casting spells from your spellbook. There would be little point in Project Image if the image couldn´t cast your spells.