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Which class do you think is the best Mage Killer?

135

Comments

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 51
    Something else
    Borek said:

    If you start a FMT at 89,000 xp in SOA you can steal enough scrolls to reach over 3m total xp

    Can you? And does anyone really play the game that way? How long does it take? A single scroll is good for.. 6000 xp usually? So are you going to steal 2000 scrolls before you kill your first monster?

    Raduziel
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else
    borntodie said:

    Borek said:

    If you start a FMT at 89,000 xp in SOA you can steal enough scrolls to reach over 3m total xp

    Can you? And does anyone really play the game that way? How long does it take? A single scroll is good for.. 6000 xp usually? So are you going to steal 2000 scrolls before you kill your first monster?
    500 actually.
    Some people play like that yes. And yes, it's insanely long. Disarming traps and open locks everywhere (especially in the Thieves Guildhall) is another classic. There are also quests that require no fight with loads of xp (my preferred way).

  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 387
    Something else
    borntodie said:

    Borek said:

    If you start a FMT at 89,000 xp in SOA you can steal enough scrolls to reach over 3m total xp

    Can you? And does anyone really play the game that way? How long does it take? A single scroll is good for.. 6000 xp usually? So are you going to steal 2000 scrolls before you kill your first monster?
    it's 1000xp per spell level, yeah there's a ton of scrolls available, takes a bit of time but if you are power-gaming solo you need the levels since you don't have the party to back you up, especially on LOB.

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 51
    Something else
    Durmir46 said:

    If the mage kills you before you kill him, it means you did a mistake. SI of the corresponding school should always be cast prior to mage vs mage.

    `Corresponding school` assumes you know exactly what the mage is going to do, which implies heavy meta-gaming. It is possible, but I would call it cheesy. If you want to avoid that, you need to cast both SI:Necromancy and SI:Abjuration before every mage fight. Which is possible, but it does slow you down a lot.

    By the way, I wasn't playing a gnome, it was a human berserker>mage.

    For ´perfect mage killer´, my definition would be someone who can kill them safely, with little effort and without such meta gaming.

    RVNSThacoBell
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else
    borntodie said:

    Durmir46 said:

    If the mage kills you before you kill him, it means you did a mistake. SI of the corresponding school should always be cast prior to mage vs mage.

    `Corresponding school` assumes you know exactly what the mage is going to do, which implies heavy meta-gaming. It is possible, but I would call it cheesy. If you want to avoid that, you need to cast both SI:Necromancy and SI:Abjuration before every mage fight. Which is possible, but it does slow you down a lot.

    By the way, I wasn't playing a gnome, it was a human berserker>mage.

    For ´perfect mage killer´, my definition would be someone who can kill them safely, with little effort and without such meta gaming.
    As you said, mages can fit in here.
    As you can read in previous posts, druids do not.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 608
    edited August 9
    Something else
    Durmir46 said:

    Grond0 said:

    Durmir46 said:

    I want to see that. Considering liches' MR I bet you have to reload more than once befire landing anything.
    And that's still true for many of the most powerful mages.
    If only you had a spell like "Lower Resistance"...

    Standard liches (and demiliches) have no magic resistance. In the unmodded game a single PfU scroll is anyway sufficient to kill them (though some classes can struggle to overcome Kangaxx's regeneration and physical resistances), so there's no real need for a mage-killer against them.
    Except using scrolls is cheese. And cheese disqualifies here... precisely because
    1) everybody can do it, rendering it non-relevant
    2) then it opens the door to a big world of WTF

    Plus, even with a scroll you may find yourself unable to kill him!!! It's the only class I can think of in that case, but even with fire seeds, considering Kangaxx' high hp regen, your rolls may prevent you from killing him entirely!

    And I cannot confirm regarding liches' MR, but even with none, you're gonna have a baaaad time. Especially if the lich starts with time stop as it usually does, because CD will never habe the time to reach it! X)
    I haven't played without mods in a really long time, so this dates back to the original version of the game, but I recall the battle going like that: the party stands there bemused, watching as the lich dukes it out with the pit fiend it gated. You are also overestimating Kangaxx; he is not one of the werewolves with the bugged regeneration. The only danger about the happy skull is that his special ability is not really explained well in the game. That is why meeting him for the first time was a frustrating experience for many players back then, when there was so litttle information available on the web.

    edit: Btw, you wouldn't even get to use energy blade back then, because ToB wasn't out yet.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else
    chimaera said:

    Durmir46 said:

    Grond0 said:

    Durmir46 said:

    I want to see that. Considering liches' MR I bet you have to reload more than once befire landing anything.
    And that's still true for many of the most powerful mages.
    If only you had a spell like "Lower Resistance"...

    Standard liches (and demiliches) have no magic resistance. In the unmodded game a single PfU scroll is anyway sufficient to kill them (though some classes can struggle to overcome Kangaxx's regeneration and physical resistances), so there's no real need for a mage-killer against them.
    Except using scrolls is cheese. And cheese disqualifies here... precisely because
    1) everybody can do it, rendering it non-relevant
    2) then it opens the door to a big world of WTF

    Plus, even with a scroll you may find yourself unable to kill him!!! It's the only class I can think of in that case, but even with fire seeds, considering Kangaxx' high hp regen, your rolls may prevent you from killing him entirely!

    And I cannot confirm regarding liches' MR, but even with none, you're gonna have a baaaad time. Especially if the lich starts with time stop as it usually does, because CD will never habe the time to reach it! X)
    I haven't played without mods in a really long time, so this dates back to the original version of the game, but I recall the battle going like that: the party stands there bemused, watching as the lich dukes it out with the pit fiend it gated. You are also overestimating Kangaxx; he is not one of the werewolves with the bugged regeneration. The only danger about the happy skull is that his special ability is not really explained well in the game. That is why meeting him for the first time was a frustrating experience for many players back then, when there was so litttle information available on the web.

    edit: Btw, you wouldn't even get to use energy blade back then, because ToB wasn't out yet.
    Luckily ToB was released! :smiley:
    Although I guess that would throw another debate...
    Long story short, Kangaxx is a bit different now. He is immune to all spells in the game, and he benefits from stacking hp regens from demilich form + ring of Gaxx. He has lower hp now (just 50 or so), but the regen is about 6 to 10 per round (hard to tell precisely). So even if you were to deal more damage with fire seeds than the regen, it would be insanely slow.
    Plus, Kangaxx does not open gates anymore. Now he cast imprisonment as an ability (infinite charges) and not a spell anymore, although protections against it work the same (SI is your best friend). He also dismisses summons as they appear.
    Yup, he is still a jolly jester.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 608
    edited August 9
    Something else
    @Durmir46
    That is how Kangaxx was in the original game... Re-read what I wrote, the battle was against a lich. I don't remember the battle against Kangaxx anymore, tbh.

    I'll repeat myself here, but: your argument against the druid can be also used against the f/m. In theory you can use both fire seeds or energy blades, but in practice you don't need either for Kangaxx. Just hire Korgan to do the job, much quicker and with less hassle. Fire seeds and energy blades become relevant only in the context of the modded game, because scs restores spellcasting to demiliches.

    The irony is the vanilla demilich should not even be called a mage, considering he can't cast any mage spells.

    RVNSThacoBell
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    edited August 9
    Something else
    @chimaera my bad, yes.
    No, liches do not summon pit fiends anymore. They start straight with a time stop. Usually ADHW during the time stop, some finger of death and a nice maze if you're lucky.
    In practice, energy blades would be used only by pure wizards. A F/M still is a F. WIth Improved haste and all that. So, SI:abj is enough against the demiliche, then you can cast Improved Haste (optional) on you and just whack the baddy. If you are using the improved mace of disruption, you even get a chance at a 1-hit kill. Not necessary, but it brings quite the satisfaction if it happens.


    @Grond0 pure mages have energy blades, it's a pretty fast kill on Kangaxx with these. Although I do not believe pure mages are the best mage killers, they still get the job done. Unlike druids.
    And I believe scroll of prot against undead is widely considered in the community as cheese. It is not cheat. It is still cheese. But again, it is nigh irrelevant because it does not change the main issue of the druid: if he can at all kill Kangaxx, it is going to require patience... Fire seeds deal 2D8 damage each, and you have 4. So, at 1 APR, that's an average of 9 damage per round, barely enough to make it up for Kangaxx regen. Now the trick is taht once you have used your 4 seeds (even with no regen it is not enough to kill Kangaxx, unless you are insanely lucky on the rolls), you have to cast it again. In the meantime Kangaxx regens... So yes, you have to be both lucky AND patient.. Go and try, let me know how it goes for you. Remember to bring a stack of scrolls with you. They last a long time, but you're gonna need every bit of it x)

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,493
    Durmir46 said:

    @Grond0 pure mages have energy blades, it's a pretty fast kill on Kangaxx with these. Although I do not believe pure mages are the best mage killers, they still get the job done. Unlike druids.
    And I believe scroll of prot against undead is widely considered in the community as cheese. It is not cheat. It is still cheese. But again, it is nigh irrelevant because it does not change the main issue of the druid: if he can at all kill Kangaxx, it is going to require patience... Fire seeds deal 2D8 damage each, and you have 4. So, at 1 APR, that's an average of 9 damage per round, barely enough to make it up for Kangaxx regen. Now the trick is taht once you have used your 4 seeds (even with no regen it is not enough to kill Kangaxx, unless you are insanely lucky on the rolls), you have to cast it again. In the meantime Kangaxx regens... So yes, you have to be both lucky AND patient.. Go and try, let me know how it goes for you. Remember to bring a stack of scrolls with you. They last a long time, but you're gonna need every bit of it x)

    You get 4 fire seeds per spell, giving you 20 or 24 available even without using any cheesy methods to make them permanent - and you could cast them all before attacking. I also find it hard to imagine that a druid attacking Kangaxx wouldn't use an oil of speed or equivalent to boost his APR ...

    As for energy blades I said before I would expect to attack Kangaxx before HLAs are available. However, if you're thinking of doing it after that then a high level druid can memorize up to 7 of those compared to the 4 by a high level mage (5 for a specialist) ;). However, as has been said before the discussion shouldn't just be about what can be done at high levels anyway.

    RVNSStummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else
    Grond0 said:

    Durmir46 said:

    @Grond0 pure mages have energy blades, it's a pretty fast kill on Kangaxx with these. Although I do not believe pure mages are the best mage killers, they still get the job done. Unlike druids.
    And I believe scroll of prot against undead is widely considered in the community as cheese. It is not cheat. It is still cheese. But again, it is nigh irrelevant because it does not change the main issue of the druid: if he can at all kill Kangaxx, it is going to require patience... Fire seeds deal 2D8 damage each, and you have 4. So, at 1 APR, that's an average of 9 damage per round, barely enough to make it up for Kangaxx regen. Now the trick is taht once you have used your 4 seeds (even with no regen it is not enough to kill Kangaxx, unless you are insanely lucky on the rolls), you have to cast it again. In the meantime Kangaxx regens... So yes, you have to be both lucky AND patient.. Go and try, let me know how it goes for you. Remember to bring a stack of scrolls with you. They last a long time, but you're gonna need every bit of it x)

    You get 4 fire seeds per spell, giving you 20 or 24 available even without using any cheesy methods to make them permanent - and you could cast them all before attacking. I also find it hard to imagine that a druid attacking Kangaxx wouldn't use an oil of speed or equivalent to boost his APR ...

    As for energy blades I said before I would expect to attack Kangaxx before HLAs are available. However, if you're thinking of doing it after that then a high level druid can memorize up to 7 of those compared to the 4 by a high level mage (5 for a specialist) ;). However, as has been said before the discussion shouldn't just be about what can be done at high levels anyway.
    Let's just cross fingers for good rolls! And it still requires scrolls, without which obviously you don't get far.

    Anyway, that is Kangaxx, who is not even the worse, with ToB for instance we get many new interesting mages, roughly immune to IP or CD, and against who the scrolls are useless. Even in SoA, some drow mages in the Underdark may prove interesting (doable, but interesting).

    Point is, you have to be really ballsy to claim druids/shamans are the ultimate mage killers. Aside from how long it is for them (they are, as a reminder, one of the lowest damaging class in the game), some fights will require reloads, scrolls, cheese or teammates.

    But enough of druids, let's hear about proper contenders as we go back to the main topic.
    At this stage, inquisitors and "something else" have the favours of the public, and some players had really good points. I would love to read more.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 608
    Something else
    @Durmir46
    That's nice, but I don't need spell immunity with Korgan, who just uses berserk and goes chopping. You still haven't demonstrated why I'd need an f/m in the first place, when I can have the dwarf.

    RVNS
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 51
    edited August 9
    Something else
    Borek said:


    it's 1000xp per spell level, yeah there's a ton of scrolls available, takes a bit of time but if you are power-gaming solo you need the levels since you don't have the party to back you up, especially on LOB.

    You sir have amazing patience.

    I didn´t know this is possible. Where do you find the monsters to steal from? What do you do if your action fails and the monster turns hostile? Do you boost your skill with potions?

    Not that I ever want to try this myself, but I'm curious. :)

    RVNS
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 2,839
    Something else
    Preface: I view this as best for me, and won't make a case for the best overall. I'm testing another bard kit as well that is turning out quite well.

    Bard kits first (gypsy for one), then druid kit (oozemaster) and shaman kits (spiritwalker and dreamwalker) next.
    The gypsy bard from Song n Silence (in combo with Rogue Rebalancing) is one of the most powerful bard kits in my experience , and have run it extensively in BG1.
    I've found the one round charm to be quite helpful and very damaging to enemies. I use it to make an enemy if they have equipped weapons, switch to fists, or even equip a bow to gain a bonus to hit them, and make them back away from the party to hit them with missiles some more (or to run away from them), even hide again if my thief is near for a backstab and no others are in site. Nothing like telling an enemy to go stand in the corner with his back to ya while you shoot em down. I also use it to charm one enemy then move him back into the enemy group (me being unseen from them) to be attacked by them. Mages will waste spells of course on their own then.

    *Now that's just good prep work for taking on the mages.

    As for mages themselves (including Saervok's helpers end-game), I found there is enough time when I order them to immediately after the first, to have them start casting another spell right after the first fires before the time runs out on the charm (even if they go red circle again before finishing the spell they will cast it). It really helps being able to have enemies make saves en mass every single round while singing. At 16th lvl the saves go into the negative vs his song (GMalisons from the bard, or dooms and spirit fires from NPCs helps of course).

    Most creatures don't seem to like being attacked by others, mages included, hehheh, and continue fighting each other if they don't see you afterwards, sometimes even if they do. There is just something gratifying to hear an enemy mage blast his lil helpers from a distance. Chuck in a few more critters and spells from a distance while that's going on just adds to the fun. I also like to fire a W of MS in there and walk in again to charm some more while there focused on my help.
    Alot can be done in during that one round of charm. B)

    RVNSGrond0StummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • ArchGhostArchGhost Member Posts: 18
    edited August 10
    Something else
    Fighter/Mage or Mage/Thief, depending on whether you think the option of initiative matters.

    Mage/Thief has traps (insanely powerful, only blocked by stoneskin/mirror images and the obscure protection from energy for the poison damage) and backstabs that can instantly shred the mage without even engaging it. Or you can use your own debuff spells to make them vulnerable to said traps (works wonders in Watcher's Keep) or backstabs in combat and especially abuse Hide in Shadows for free repeated target cancelling by running offscreen then kind of do whatever you want. I've repeatedly just shot Blinded spellcasters to death with my M/Ts, which is much more mundane than the Mislead crap you *can* pull on them.

    F/M can simply blow off their protections then shred them, like an Inquisitor on steroids. Self-buff or not, it doesn't matter much. A naked mage can't stand up to a fighter without protections, especially one that use their own spell defenses and can disrupt them with sudden bursts of MM, Acid Arrow, MMMs, etc. or Power Word: Blind or Symbol: Stun for beefier spell level-resistant targets.


    Druids with insects for disruption, and Inquisitors with easy dispel+true sight are simpler options for sure, but don't have the magnitude of effectiveness either F/M or M/T does. Neither is gonna see as much success against something that is not just a squishy caster like a dragon for instance, it'll just shrug off your debuffs and beat you to death unless you are leveled enough or use HLAs to match it more evenly.

    Monk is kinda a joke option. Any thief can also become immune through MR and a way better mage-masher.
    ThacoBell said:

    Another edge for Druids/Shamans is that they can do all this completely naked. Thieves, wizard slayers, berserkers, they all require items of some kind for the kill.mods.

    Thieves are not item dependent to kill mages, especially if multiclassed with spellcasters. it's the most mechanically OP class in the game with items, yes, but it doesn't need them to pull off mage kills.

    Grond0BorekDurmir46
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    edited August 10
    Something else
    chimaera said:

    @Durmir46
    That's nice, but I don't need spell immunity with Korgan, who just uses berserk and goes chopping. You still haven't demonstrated why I'd need an f/m in the first place, when I can have the dwarf.

    SI is not harder to use than berserk...
    I have access to other self buffs, such as Improved haste and Tenser Transformation.

    However as I said already, as early as my very first post in this thread and later again, the best mage killer is situational. Over the entirety of the game, I believe (but It's also personal preference, again it is hard to say and will depend) the F/M gets the honour.

    Assassins, inquisitors, F/T etc. are strong contenders too. If I had to choose for a playthrough, I would pick assassin, but that's because I love that class and I am quite biased towards it.

    StummvonBordwehrGrond0
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 387
    Something else
    borntodie said:

    Borek said:


    it's 1000xp per spell level, yeah there's a ton of scrolls available, takes a bit of time but if you are power-gaming solo you need the levels since you don't have the party to back you up, especially on LOB.

    You sir have amazing patience.

    I didn´t know this is possible. Where do you find the monsters to steal from? What do you do if your action fails and the monster turns hostile? Do you boost your skill with potions?

    Not that I ever want to try this myself, but I'm curious. :)
    With 250+ Pickpockets from potions you have essentially no chance to fail, i focus mostly on the shopkeepers, scrolls from monsters/guards etc can also be found but it's random so that's why i was referring to the luck aspect, less so for the experience, more for finding some 7-9th scrolls that are ones you really want to be able to cast early on but are not otherwise going to be able to buy/steal at that point in the game. Notable finds would be spell trap, Mordy sword, project image, pierce shield.

  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 513
    Something else
    My biggest complaint with F/M is that vs a fully buffed mage, you're stuck with a minimum of 7 rounds before you can affect your opponent with a Breach, since you don't get level 9 spells until 6m experience. I've never HIT 6m experience in all my ToB runs, but I suppose that's because I play with a party exclusively.
    I suppose with Simulacrum you might be able to reduce the round count, but that's still going to be tricky.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    edited August 10
    Something else
    Neverused said:

    My biggest complaint with F/M is that vs a fully buffed mage, you're stuck with a minimum of 7 rounds before you can affect your opponent with a Breach, since you don't get level 9 spells until 6m experience. I've never HIT 6m experience in all my ToB runs, but I suppose that's because I play with a party exclusively.
    I suppose with Simulacrum you might be able to reduce the round count, but that's still going to be tricky.

    This is a bit of an abusive statement :wink:
    Breach alone is good enough for a very large portion on the game. Minor sequencer is lvl4 and will get you Breach + Pierce Magic.

    Until 1.5M exp, I doubt you will find anything that will cause problem beyond your breach, and after that you have your dispel combo.
    Lvl9 is absolutely not necessary, although it makes things even better (obviously...).

    If you need 7 rounds to dispel with your F/M, then you should probably try another class, arcane casters are not for you :smiley:

  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 513
    edited August 10
    Something else
    ......... Please, read the above posts and tell me what you're going to do to take down a mage protected by Spell Shield, Spell Deflection, Spell Turning, Spell Trap, SI:Divination, Improved Invisibility, SI:Abjuration, Globe of Invulnerability, and Protection from Magical Energy, Stoneskin, Mirror Image, PfMW. You can't see him, you can't cast at him, you can't dispel him, you DEFINITELY can't Breach him. This is a standard high level mage defense setup. I'm counting 7 spell casts required to break this without Spellstrike. Can you do better without Improved Alacrity or Spellstrike?

    Edit: I can actually do it in 5 using a sequencer of Secret Word x2 and Spell Thrust x1 to take down the Turning and Deflection and the Spell Immunities. Breach alone gets swallowed up by Spell Shield without doing anything.

    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else
    Neverused said:

    ......... Please, read the above posts and tell me what you're going to do to take down a mage protected by Spell Shield, Spell Deflection, Spell Turning, Spell Trap, SI:Divination, Improved Invisibility, SI:Abjuration, Globe of Invulnerability, and Protection from Magical Energy, Stoneskin, Mirror Image, PfMW. You can't see him, you can't cast at him, you can't dispel him, you DEFINITELY can't Breach him. This is a standard high level mage defense setup. I'm counting 7 spell casts required to break this without Spellstrike. Can you do better without Improved Alacrity or Spellstrike?

    Please read above posts when we discuss this is vanilla, not scs, and mages just do not use the spells you mention, at least not in a way that would not neave them vulnerable to my axe.
    Feel free to mention exceptions.

  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,273
    Something else
    @Durmir46 When I read "Minor sequencer is lvl4 and will get you Breach + Pierce Magic" I cursed my own stupidity for not realising this and went to load one up in my current game - only to find that it is indeed limited to lvl 2 spells, just as Spell sequencer is limited to lvl 4.

    Am I missing something here?

    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 51
    Something else
    chimaera said:

    @Durmir46
    That's nice, but I don't need spell immunity with Korgan, who just uses berserk and goes chopping. You still haven't demonstrated why I'd need an f/m in the first place, when I can have the dwarf.

    Berserk does not protect you against finger of death, that can be a nasty surprise.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else
    borntodie said:

    chimaera said:

    @Durmir46
    That's nice, but I don't need spell immunity with Korgan, who just uses berserk and goes chopping. You still haven't demonstrated why I'd need an f/m in the first place, when I can have the dwarf.

    Berserk does not protect you against finger of death, that can be a nasty surprise.
    F/M are usually gnomes (at least mine :p). Shorty saves make you practically immune to this, as there is no critical fail for saving throws.

    @dunbar yes, and what is the issue?

  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,009
    Durmir46 said:

    Durmir46 said:

    chimaera said:

    Durmir46 said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @Durmir46 "To be honest, unless there is something druids/shamans can use to dispatch *quickly* mages, I believe they are not contenders anymore at this stage."

    Hahaha, what? What makes Druids *slow* at killing mages? Mages are slow at killing other mages, as all of the others spell protections need to be dispelled first, that can take MINUTES. Druids can straight up bypass all of that. Insect plague+Fireseeds+Done.

    Dude, you should read the thread before coming in like that. With dispelling spell triggers, it is almost instant to dispel. At least mages CAN dispel systematically other mages' defenses, they do not solely rely on 18 IP damage + nuking their own summons with fire seeds... Druids are some of the lowest damage dealing classes in the game, and their inability to use anything else than IP (against which, again, the most powerful mages are immune to) and fire seeds. I'd love to see a lich vs druid fight. Not to assess how fast the druid kills the lich, but to see how fast the lich feeds upon the druid's broken body.
    Do not get me started on the demi-lich.
    Creeping doom for liches. The unmodded demilich doesn't even get to cast any spells (despite being an archmage), only spams his two abilities over and over again, and is easily fooled by a protection scroll. (someone actually wrote a '50 ways to kill Kangaxx' song years ago...)

    I suggest you try your f/m against the improved Kangaxx from scs, who actually gets to cast spells, as befitting an archmage. Because so far, the wizard slayer/druid is the only one I can agree has a foolproof strategy against him.
    I want to see that. Considering liches' MR I bet you have to reload more than once befire landing anything.
    And that's still true for many of the most powerful mages.
    If only you had a spell like "Lower Resistance"...

    EDIT: oh, and Kangaxx is downright immune to creeping doom x)
    Not to Fire Seeds (which count as +6 weapons). Also he has no fire resistance, so it would take only a few of those to kill him (since in the Demilich Form, he has only 50 HP).

    Also, why would you even bother using Lower Resistance against liches, since they are downright immune to it (and Breach, and all spells below level 6 as well)? (And more so because it is totally unnecessary as liches have zero MR :D )
    You are, my friend, 100% right.
    That's why I would use Time Stop + Energy Blades instead if I were a pure mage.
    Or just SI and smack his face if I am F/M.
    X)
    @Durmir46 Well, my friend, you're resorting to an HLA spell (Energy Blades) to do that. And the fact is, even Druids can do the same thing, and just as easily and just as fast, because they get the very same spell as well. ;) (And though this might be a little off-topic, I'd like to add that Druids also get Summon Deva and Greater Elemental Summoning, so mages are not the only ones to get powerful celestial summons.)

    The fact is, Druids can kill Kangaxx even without resorting to HLAs. (Fire seeds thrown at 2 APR, with oil of speed. And Fire Seeds can be hoarded as well, so you don't need to cast it during the battle). Mages (or even F/M) will have a really hard time doing the same thing without HLAs (smacking the old Demilich is not at all effective, because Kangaxx has 90% Physical resistance, which means that even if you land a critical hit that normally does 20-30 damage, Kangaxx will only take 2-3 damage, which he will easily regenerate. You really can't call that fast, can you? ;) )

    ThacoBell
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 51
    edited August 10
    Something else
    Durmir46 said:

    SI is not harder to use than berserk...

    That is a strong statement. If you want to be immune to every instant kill that a mage might cast, you need to cast SI three times: conjuration (maze), abjuration (imprisonment) and necromancy (finger of death). Casting these, plus your other pre-combat buffs, means they will run out quickly during the battle.

    Those level 5 spells compete with your Breach and Lower Resistance spell slots. If you are using triggers / contingencies too, that is going to require a lot of resting: at least once after every fight involving a mage, maybe even twice to restore all of your triggers. A lot more work than pressing a single button, to be fair, especially when the berserker can use it many times before needing to sleep to recharge.

    And it should also be taken into account that being forced to sleep in a dungeon can kill you, if you are out of spells.

    Rik_KirtaniyaThacoBell
  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,009
    Durmir46 said:

    Minor sequencer is lvl4 and will get you Breach + Pierce Magic.

    dunbar said:

    @Durmir46 When I read "Minor sequencer is lvl4 and will get you Breach + Pierce Magic" I cursed my own stupidity for not realising this and went to load one up in my current game - only to find that it is indeed limited to lvl 2 spells, just as Spell sequencer is limited to lvl 4.

    Am I missing something here?

    Durmir46 said:

    @dunbar yes, and what is the issue?

    @Durmir46 The issue is that you cannot load Breach + Pierce Magic on a Minor Sequencer (which only allows loading spells of level 2 or less). You would need a Spell Trigger to do that, which again is a level 8 spell.

    dunbar
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