1. Dispel Magic means that Inquisitors can quickly and easily bring down any mage using Dispel Magic unless they're at low levels, in which case they can't always dispel the highest-level mages. A 10th-level Inquisitor, for example, has a 75% chance of dispelling a level 15 mage's defenses with Dispel Magic. Inquisitors can also use Carsomyr to get a guaranteed dispel on anyone without PFMW.
It's very fast, very easy, and doesn't require high levels to be reliable.
2. Druids can easily but more slowly bring down any mage besides a lich or drow, even right out of Chateau Irenicus, using Insect Plague. They can only hit liches with Creeping Doom, and drow with Firestorm, at higher levels (1.5 million XP for level 14). Note that while Insect Plague moves slowly, you can always walk closer to a lich before casting it--and it is in fact fast enough to hit the enemy before Time Stop (Insect Plague casts 3 whole seconds faster than Time Stop).
It's somewhat slow, very easy, and doesn't require high levels to be reliable.
3. Berserkers can win against all forms of mages, including liches and drow, even at low levels, but much more slowly and less reliably. They have to rely on their immunities and HP to outlast mages.
It's very slow, sometimes hard, and requires high levels to be reliable.
4. Wizard Slayers can win against any mages provided that they have the right weapons. Nonmagical darts and Darts +5 from the Cloak of Stars are sufficient. It takes a few seconds longer for them to kill a mage than an Inquisitor since they have to wear through Stoneskins normally.
It's somewhat slow, very easy, and doesn't require high levels to be reliable.
5. Mages can win against any non-lich almost as fast as an Inquisitor using Breach. Against liches, they have to resort to more complicated strategies that take more time.
It's usually fast, usually easy, and usually doesn't require high levels to be reliable.
For SCS:
1. Inquisitors can't get past SI: Abjuration until they find a Rod of Reversal. Only early-game Athkatla mages are easy to kill. Inquisitors will take many rounds to bring down SI: Abjuration using a Rod of Reversal, since SCS mages will pre-buff with multiple defenses, re-cast defenses, and even use Spell Deflection+Spell Shield+PFMW Spell Triggers that force another two Rod of Reversal charges. Depending on the install, Inquisitors also have nerfed Dispel Magic spells.
It's very slow, very difficult, and requires using a rare item to be reliable.
2. A druids can't get past Fire Shield at all; Insect Plague is useless. Summoned elementals also can't hurt mages who buff with PFMW or Improved Mantle. Druids have no good options.
It's extremely slow, extremely difficult, and extremely unreliable at all levels.
3. Berserkers operate the same as in vanilla.
It's very slow, sometimes hard, and requires high levels to be reliable.
4. Wizard Slayers operate the same as in vanilla, except they will be forced to simply outlast liches who cast PFMW, since those liches will be immune to both magical and nonmagical weapons for many rounds.
It's somewhat fast, very easy, doesn't require high levels, and is 100% reliable against non-liches, and is extremely difficult, extremely slow, and extremely unreliable against liches.
5. Mages can deal with mages, but their speed and their reliability depends entirely on each mage's level and the player's preparation. It can take a few rounds to bring down a mage, or it can take very many.
It's very slow, very difficult, and requires high levels to be reliable.
6. A Wizard Slayer/Druid has near-100% shutdown on all mages without exception as soon as it hits druid level 11 and gets Vhailor's Helm.
It's somewhat fast, very easy, and doesn't need high levels to be reliable.
I'd put Inquisitor at the top of the stack for vanilla, and Wizard Slayer/Druid at the top of the stack for SCS. They are simpler, more reliable, and aside from the very early game, require lower levels than any other class.
I can only apologise and I can understand your frustration (I have felt the same a few times myself on other points).
My interrogations and challenges are really just to try to understand better, so I apologise if this was understood in any other way. I do that in many games I play. I like a bit of powergaming once in a while, and challenging claims is an excellent way to learn something and want to try something new. In my line of work (IRL), challenging experts is my day-to-day job and if there is one thing I have learnt along the years is that it is not because several people, even experienced ones, tell you the same thing, that it cannot be rightfully challenged. Makes every day a new and interesting day . And it drives innovation!
That's very big of you. I for one appreciate the sentiment and the clarification. We're all here to share information and to learn; not just "win" debates. I'm glad you're here for the right reasons (even if I do disagree with your views on druids).
Sometimes these debates can be a little frustrating because they're so complex and it's easy to miss important points--or even just assume that someone is talking about the same issue as you. Often, the longest debates are two or more people talking about different things.
In SCS mage or sorcerer above level 18 will destroy any mage reliably and without fail at great speed.
This is due to fact than once you figure out the so called 'mage chess' then under improved alacrity you just shot down those ruby rays/secret words/lower resistances/spell strikes and strip any mage of any level within seconds. If you fire all of those without time stop they will land at different time allowing you to shot few more to instantly take down contigencies too.
Under IA mage/sorc has also enough of arsenal to blow up the target within seconds.
Please also remember that only mages have access to only way to breach multiple enemies through spell protections via Wish Breach. It's quite outlandingly powerful spell.
This is the reason I personally feel that <18 lvl WS->Druid is by far the best and >=18 lvl Sorcerer is best.
That said, because of this I always have sorcerer on board for LOB/SCS as one character wins even 1 v X mage fights. Not many of those though.
I've actually had trouble with Improved Alacrity and magic attacks in SCS. In SCS, those spells are cast via invisible critters who cast the real debuffers via script (which lets you target invisible creatures with them, a function that's already possible in EE). However, those scripts take time to fire and sometimes the creature targets the wrong monster. The timing is especially important--if you cast a Pierce Magic spell to remove Spell Shield and then Breach to remove PFMW, you might end up with Breach hitting first and being consumed while Pierce Magic hits second and does nothing but lower the target's MR.
I've actually had trouble with Improved Alacrity and magic attacks in SCS. In SCS, those spells are cast via invisible critters who cast the real debuffers via script (which lets you target invisible creatures with them, a function that's already possible in EE). However, those scripts take time to fire and sometimes the creature targets the wrong monster. The timing is especially important--if you cast a Pierce Magic spell to remove Spell Shield and then Breach to remove PFMW, you might end up with Breach hitting first and being consumed while Pierce Magic hits second and does nothing but lower the target's MR.
Yep. This happens very often during time stop, that's why during TS I move closer/further away to ensure the proper order or just don't use TS for debuffing.
A kitted Wizard Slayer that allows shattering magic (dispelling) using projectiles could give the Inquisitor a good run for its money. I was using a kitted one called "Wizard Slayer Rebalancing" which allows this very scenario. It also alters the magic resistance higher on level ups.
3. Berserkers can win against all forms of mages, including liches and drow, even at low levels, but much more slowly and less reliably. They have to rely on their immunities and HP to outlast mages.
It's very slow, sometimes hard, and requires high levels to be reliable.
Great post, but why do you say a berserker is more reliable at high levels?
imo a berserker really shines at level 1, at that point they are the best class vs the mage in front of the friendly arm inn.
The main problem with berserkers vs mages (solo, vanilla) is that finger of death is a serious hole in their defenses. And some of the mages that cast it can be encountered very early, like the mage you need to kill for Edwin. If it is a no-reload game, I don't know how a berserker can win that fight without severe meta gaming, something a druid never needs.
That is why I would rank druid above berserker for the vanilla game.
3. Berserkers can win against all forms of mages, including liches and drow, even at low levels, but much more slowly and less reliably. They have to rely on their immunities and HP to outlast mages.
It's very slow, sometimes hard, and requires high levels to be reliable.
Great post, but why do you say a berserker is more reliable at high levels?
imo a berserker really shines at level 1, at that point they are the best class vs the mage in front of the friendly arm inn.
The main problem with berserkers vs mages (solo, vanilla) is that finger of death is a serious hole in their defenses. And some of the mages that cast it can be encountered very early, like the mage you need to kill for Edwin. If it is a no-reload game, I don't know how a berserker can win that fight without severe meta gaming, something a druid never needs.
That is why I would rank druid above berserker for the vanilla game.
Yeah you'd need something to prevent death magic, thieves have it via HLA or clerics/druids can buff, still think FMT is the most complete package for the topic, the only issues are deciding exactly what to use to kill with.
My old install was getting a bit screwy so upgraded to 2.5 and re-did my mods via the excellent EE Mod Setup tool, added some new SCS options such as casters able to use short duration buffs instantly at the start of battle (to simulate them pre-buffing) and oh man does it make a yuge difference haha. Previous install was a manual one and seems not all my SCS was working before, so i'm really looking forward to how this pans out. I will say that FMT's ability to detect illusions has been a godsend just in Irenicus' lair, couple of the spell casting critters inside would insta-buff with blur, Mirror Image as well as non-illusion buffs, being able to strip the images just by standing next to them whacking at stoneskins is invaluable, as is the ability to punk down 1 enemy in advance via backstab.
Currently on a Barbarian > Mage dual playthrough, the rage is lacking Vs Imprisonment, but the AI seems to have made thieves Backstab much more reliably, Jaheira got killed by the 2 thieves that appear at the end of Irenicus' Lair who dbl backstabbed her, so i think the Barbarian immunity is going to be super-useful compared to before. Again i'd favour the FMT since they can sneak in with DI and pop hidden enemies w/o showing themselves most of the time, then backstab 1.
I also turned on more potions (and have them lootable) so my enemies have turned into total potion junkies, nice for the quick kills, not so nice for the long ones when they use oil of speed, pot of invulnerability and 3-4 heal potions and pots of invisibility in a fight, but very nice step up in challenge all told. Thief enemies are particularly savage as they will backstab after using an invis potion, which just bounces off my 45% non-buffed physical resistance w/o any multiplier. I think after i switch to mage this combo will be insane, but it's gonna be a late dual so probably won't really be a viable combo except for end game. Obviously it needs to be modded to even allow Barbs to dual class.
Great post, but why do you say a berserker is more reliable at high levels?
I mean that Berserkers are more reliable when they reach higher levels, not in higher-level fights. Berserkers can shrug off virtually any disabler, which means mages must get through their HP instead. A Berserker's chance of success depends on their level because that determines how much spell damage they can take.
I hadn't considered the Finger of Death problem for Berserkers. They also don't have any defense against petrification or Disintegrate. They need stronger saving throws or a party member casting Death Ward and Protection from Petrification to cover that weakness.
I'm finding this discussion very interesting. I'm starting to think of one minor point that I'm not seeing mentioned. In the mage chess game, I seem to remember that many mages start out by casting Improved Invisibility, Mislead, Project Image, or Simulacrum, either by script or by contingency.
That means that the first counterspell is going to have to be True Sight, because Breach can't be cast on an invisible target (correct me if I'm wrong). Can Ruby Ray, Warding Whip, Spellstrike, or any of those high level defense-stripping spells work on an invisible target? I was thinking they don't.
The trick of casting a druid's insect plague on a summons should still work on an invisible mage, though, right? I would never have tried that, because I thought casting a hostile spell on your own summon would make the summon go hostile.
How does the wizard slayer deal with the invisible or projected wizard? Does she start throwing darts with the -4 penalty as soon as the wizard starts casting and becomes partially visible? How does she deal with a misled image, projected image, or simulacrum? Wouldn't the copy have to be brought down first, leaving the real wizard able to cast at will?
I remember one mage from the vanilla game who is scripted to start by casting an unavoidable Mislead - Firkraag's pet mage. How does a solo class without access to True Sight deal with a situation like that?
I may have to change my Zerker->Druid dual run(SCS) to a WS->Druid one. Instead of GM in QS I may have to go darts! Not sure which melee weapon to go, but maybe dual scims or daggers for speed.
There's also the Jester, against humanoid (read: non-undead) mages. Unless the devs changed it nothing blocks the Jester's song short of outright immunity, so all a Jester needs to do is stay hidden and wait for the Law of Averages to work and for the enemy mage to make a crucial mistake.
This topic is actually an old one and has been discussed for more than a decade, and back when the old Bioware forums were still up someone actually took pains to create an arena-type mod just to test out character builds against mages. Surprisingly fighters can be very effective against mages thanks in a large part to the Smite HLA - perma-knockback is a real spellcaster killer. Bards had their own variation with Tenser's Transformation (max HP increase), invisibility abuse (eg. Staff of Magi), using spell protections/MR/AC spells/equipment and just spamming persistent AoE effects on the battlefield (like Cloudkill, from the wand) until the enemy mage's lower base HP gives way. IIRC though the consensus was that the character who revealed itself first usually lost (assuming both characters started the fight invisible, which they SHOULD) because this potentially opens you up to ton of punishment (anything from Daystar's Sunray->blind to the Ring of the Ram->spell failure/knockback to traps to the Horn of Blasting->stun).
@semiticgod : thanks for the hints about ws/d as the best mage killer. just a thing, when should i dual my ws ? lev 7 - 9 - 13? ( i am a returning player, played bg 20 years ago, and would like to try this new nightmare version with mods)
@Organa: I generally prefer low-level dual-classes because they're easier to work with and achieve their potential faster. My last one was dualed at level 7 for the extra half attack per round with Fire Seeds, and I used a druid proficiency to get Grandmastery in darts. In some versions of the game, however, either because of EE updates or mods, it's not possible for a dual-classed character to reach grandmastery unless he or she does so as a fighter, so you might not be able to get GM unless you dual at level 9.
Dualing at level 9 isn't that much slower because druids gain levels so quickly, but a level 13 dual would be pretty slow, as it takes a druid 1.5 million XP to hit level 14 and recover those fighter levels. If you're playing Legacy of Bhaal/Nightmare Mode and have the bonus XP enabled, however (there's an option in your baldur.ini file or in the Gameplay menu in-game to make Nightmare Mode double all combat XP and add 1,000 XP to each kill), then a level 13 dual would be more practical, since your party would be higher-level in general.
@semiticgod : Thanks a lot ( again) for the info. Since i don't know wich version i am playing i will dual at lev 9 ( just to be safe) Btw: i am starting my custom party and the plan is to play all 3 games with the same group. Thanks again, Organa.
Comments
For the vanilla game:
1. Dispel Magic means that Inquisitors can quickly and easily bring down any mage using Dispel Magic unless they're at low levels, in which case they can't always dispel the highest-level mages. A 10th-level Inquisitor, for example, has a 75% chance of dispelling a level 15 mage's defenses with Dispel Magic. Inquisitors can also use Carsomyr to get a guaranteed dispel on anyone without PFMW.
It's very fast, very easy, and doesn't require high levels to be reliable.
2. Druids can easily but more slowly bring down any mage besides a lich or drow, even right out of Chateau Irenicus, using Insect Plague. They can only hit liches with Creeping Doom, and drow with Firestorm, at higher levels (1.5 million XP for level 14). Note that while Insect Plague moves slowly, you can always walk closer to a lich before casting it--and it is in fact fast enough to hit the enemy before Time Stop (Insect Plague casts 3 whole seconds faster than Time Stop).
It's somewhat slow, very easy, and doesn't require high levels to be reliable.
3. Berserkers can win against all forms of mages, including liches and drow, even at low levels, but much more slowly and less reliably. They have to rely on their immunities and HP to outlast mages.
It's very slow, sometimes hard, and requires high levels to be reliable.
4. Wizard Slayers can win against any mages provided that they have the right weapons. Nonmagical darts and Darts +5 from the Cloak of Stars are sufficient. It takes a few seconds longer for them to kill a mage than an Inquisitor since they have to wear through Stoneskins normally.
It's somewhat slow, very easy, and doesn't require high levels to be reliable.
5. Mages can win against any non-lich almost as fast as an Inquisitor using Breach. Against liches, they have to resort to more complicated strategies that take more time.
It's usually fast, usually easy, and usually doesn't require high levels to be reliable.
For SCS:
1. Inquisitors can't get past SI: Abjuration until they find a Rod of Reversal. Only early-game Athkatla mages are easy to kill. Inquisitors will take many rounds to bring down SI: Abjuration using a Rod of Reversal, since SCS mages will pre-buff with multiple defenses, re-cast defenses, and even use Spell Deflection+Spell Shield+PFMW Spell Triggers that force another two Rod of Reversal charges. Depending on the install, Inquisitors also have nerfed Dispel Magic spells.
It's very slow, very difficult, and requires using a rare item to be reliable.
2. A druids can't get past Fire Shield at all; Insect Plague is useless. Summoned elementals also can't hurt mages who buff with PFMW or Improved Mantle. Druids have no good options.
It's extremely slow, extremely difficult, and extremely unreliable at all levels.
3. Berserkers operate the same as in vanilla.
It's very slow, sometimes hard, and requires high levels to be reliable.
4. Wizard Slayers operate the same as in vanilla, except they will be forced to simply outlast liches who cast PFMW, since those liches will be immune to both magical and nonmagical weapons for many rounds.
It's somewhat fast, very easy, doesn't require high levels, and is 100% reliable against non-liches, and is extremely difficult, extremely slow, and extremely unreliable against liches.
5. Mages can deal with mages, but their speed and their reliability depends entirely on each mage's level and the player's preparation. It can take a few rounds to bring down a mage, or it can take very many.
It's very slow, very difficult, and requires high levels to be reliable.
6. A Wizard Slayer/Druid has near-100% shutdown on all mages without exception as soon as it hits druid level 11 and gets Vhailor's Helm.
It's somewhat fast, very easy, and doesn't need high levels to be reliable.
I'd put Inquisitor at the top of the stack for vanilla, and Wizard Slayer/Druid at the top of the stack for SCS. They are simpler, more reliable, and aside from the very early game, require lower levels than any other class.
Sometimes these debates can be a little frustrating because they're so complex and it's easy to miss important points--or even just assume that someone is talking about the same issue as you. Often, the longest debates are two or more people talking about different things.
In SCS mage or sorcerer above level 18 will destroy any mage reliably and without fail at great speed.
This is due to fact than once you figure out the so called 'mage chess' then under improved alacrity you just shot down those ruby rays/secret words/lower resistances/spell strikes and strip any mage of any level within seconds. If you fire all of those without time stop they will land at different time allowing you to shot few more to instantly take down contigencies too.
Under IA mage/sorc has also enough of arsenal to blow up the target within seconds.
Please also remember that only mages have access to only way to breach multiple enemies through spell protections via Wish Breach. It's quite outlandingly powerful spell.
This is the reason I personally feel that <18 lvl WS->Druid is by far the best and >=18 lvl Sorcerer is best.
That said, because of this I always have sorcerer on board for LOB/SCS as one character wins even 1 v X mage fights. Not many of those though.
imo a berserker really shines at level 1, at that point they are the best class vs the mage in front of the friendly arm inn.
The main problem with berserkers vs mages (solo, vanilla) is that finger of death is a serious hole in their defenses. And some of the mages that cast it can be encountered very early, like the mage you need to kill for Edwin. If it is a no-reload game, I don't know how a berserker can win that fight without severe meta gaming, something a druid never needs.
That is why I would rank druid above berserker for the vanilla game.
My old install was getting a bit screwy so upgraded to 2.5 and re-did my mods via the excellent EE Mod Setup tool, added some new SCS options such as casters able to use short duration buffs instantly at the start of battle (to simulate them pre-buffing) and oh man does it make a yuge difference haha. Previous install was a manual one and seems not all my SCS was working before, so i'm really looking forward to how this pans out. I will say that FMT's ability to detect illusions has been a godsend just in Irenicus' lair, couple of the spell casting critters inside would insta-buff with blur, Mirror Image as well as non-illusion buffs, being able to strip the images just by standing next to them whacking at stoneskins is invaluable, as is the ability to punk down 1 enemy in advance via backstab.
Currently on a Barbarian > Mage dual playthrough, the rage is lacking Vs Imprisonment, but the AI seems to have made thieves Backstab much more reliably, Jaheira got killed by the 2 thieves that appear at the end of Irenicus' Lair who dbl backstabbed her, so i think the Barbarian immunity is going to be super-useful compared to before. Again i'd favour the FMT since they can sneak in with DI and pop hidden enemies w/o showing themselves most of the time, then backstab 1.
I also turned on more potions (and have them lootable) so my enemies have turned into total potion junkies, nice for the quick kills, not so nice for the long ones when they use oil of speed, pot of invulnerability and 3-4 heal potions and pots of invisibility in a fight, but very nice step up in challenge all told. Thief enemies are particularly savage as they will backstab after using an invis potion, which just bounces off my 45% non-buffed physical resistance w/o any multiplier. I think after i switch to mage this combo will be insane, but it's gonna be a late dual so probably won't really be a viable combo except for end game. Obviously it needs to be modded to even allow Barbs to dual class.
I hadn't considered the Finger of Death problem for Berserkers. They also don't have any defense against petrification or Disintegrate. They need stronger saving throws or a party member casting Death Ward and Protection from Petrification to cover that weakness.
That means that the first counterspell is going to have to be True Sight, because Breach can't be cast on an invisible target (correct me if I'm wrong). Can Ruby Ray, Warding Whip, Spellstrike, or any of those high level defense-stripping spells work on an invisible target? I was thinking they don't.
The trick of casting a druid's insect plague on a summons should still work on an invisible mage, though, right? I would never have tried that, because I thought casting a hostile spell on your own summon would make the summon go hostile.
How does the wizard slayer deal with the invisible or projected wizard? Does she start throwing darts with the -4 penalty as soon as the wizard starts casting and becomes partially visible? How does she deal with a misled image, projected image, or simulacrum? Wouldn't the copy have to be brought down first, leaving the real wizard able to cast at will?
I remember one mage from the vanilla game who is scripted to start by casting an unavoidable Mislead - Firkraag's pet mage. How does a solo class without access to True Sight deal with a situation like that?
Some well laid traps also help
I may have to change my Zerker->Druid dual run(SCS) to a WS->Druid one. Instead of GM in QS I may have to go darts! Not sure which melee weapon to go, but maybe dual scims or daggers for speed.
I like the sorcerer idea too.
This topic is actually an old one and has been discussed for more than a decade, and back when the old Bioware forums were still up someone actually took pains to create an arena-type mod just to test out character builds against mages. Surprisingly fighters can be very effective against mages thanks in a large part to the Smite HLA - perma-knockback is a real spellcaster killer. Bards had their own variation with Tenser's Transformation (max HP increase), invisibility abuse (eg. Staff of Magi), using spell protections/MR/AC spells/equipment and just spamming persistent AoE effects on the battlefield (like Cloudkill, from the wand) until the enemy mage's lower base HP gives way.
IIRC though the consensus was that the character who revealed itself first usually lost (assuming both characters started the fight invisible, which they SHOULD) because this potentially opens you up to ton of punishment (anything from Daystar's Sunray->blind to the Ring of the Ram->spell failure/knockback to traps to the Horn of Blasting->stun).
( i am a returning player, played bg 20 years ago, and would like to try this new nightmare version with mods)
Dualing at level 9 isn't that much slower because druids gain levels so quickly, but a level 13 dual would be pretty slow, as it takes a druid 1.5 million XP to hit level 14 and recover those fighter levels. If you're playing Legacy of Bhaal/Nightmare Mode and have the bonus XP enabled, however (there's an option in your baldur.ini file or in the Gameplay menu in-game to make Nightmare Mode double all combat XP and add 1,000 XP to each kill), then a level 13 dual would be more practical, since your party would be higher-level in general.
Btw: i am starting my custom party and the plan is to play all 3 games with the same group.
Thanks again, Organa.