My building is on lockdown right now. There's been reports of a person with a gun at the USA Today building just down the street. No reports of shots fired or anything, but they've evacuated the building and they're asking us in neighboring buildings to stay inside.
Venezuela, Japan and Urugay recently issued travel advisory recommendations to the US because of gun violence.
Venezuela warned their citizens to avoid cities they called the "20 most dangerous in the world," based on a report from Forbes Magazine. Among the cities listed are Memphis, Tennessee, Birmingham, Alabama, and Atlanta, Georgia.
According to the Los Angeles Times, the Japanese Counsul in Detroit has also issued an alert to Japanese nationals, stating nationals should be aware of "potential for gunfire incidents everywhere in the United States."
Both countries joined Urugay, which warned their citizens traveling to the U.S. to "take precautions against growing indiscriminate violence, mostly for hate crimes, including racism and discrimination."
So yes, US is more violent than the "southern cone", but far more pacific than the Carib. And the southern cone is the region with the strongest gun culture and most armed region of "latin america". You as a tourist can rent an .30-06 rifle ant hunt Boar on Argentina, while an Mexican citizen can't own legally anything stronger than .380 ACP and even an .380 ACP requires an insane bureaucracy. https://www.craigboddington.com/endorsed-outfitters/hunting-tips/best-hunt-argentina
They aren't perfect, there are a lot of restrictions on or eg, full auto and semi auto rifles(not sure) and much paperwork to own an legal firearm, this is why there are more unregistered firearms than registered firearms.. And Mexico has 24.8 homicides / 100k hab.
I never understood the logic "criminals and politicians should have the gun monopoly" that some people advocate.
Apparently Jared Kushner has been pushing for his father-in-law to pardon Rod Blagojevich, former Illinois governor, to appeal to Democratic voters. I'm not sure how dumb you have to be believe this would move even a single Democratic vote into the "R" column, but it approaches critical mass. Mostly it reveals how people who are inherently corrupt believe (or convince themselves) that EVERYONE is just as corrput as they are. Blagojevich was caught on tape trying to SELL Obama's vacated Senate seat. He should serve every day of his sentence.
Apparently Jared Kushner has been pushing for his father-in-law to pardon Rod Blagojevich, former Illinois governor, to appeal to Democratic voters. I'm not sure how dumb you have to be believe this would move even a single Democratic vote into the "R" column, but it approaches critical mass. Mostly it reveals how people who are inherently corrupt believe (or convince themselves) that EVERYONE is just as corrput as they are. Blagojevich was caught on tape trying to SELL Obama's vacated Senate seat. He should serve every day of his sentence.
I wouldn't worry. It can't be a good idea because Trump didn't come up with it himself...
Edit: Seriously people, is "Do you want fries with that Big-Mac?" really worth $20/hour?
$20/hour is about $3200/month, I think?
Here in Russia we've got a lot of pancake kiosks, and last time I checked they offered about $700/month for a job like that, which is ever so slightly above the mean even (by whole country). Before the course plummeted, that would've been probably $1100, a third of American wage. And the Russian incomes are generally considered to be a third of Americans.
As for prices, while the blins they serve are great, any time I think about buying one I have to remind myself I can spend those $3-4 equivalent to buy myself enough meat and vegetables to cook a full dinner and have some leftovers for evening.
Venezuela warned their citizens to avoid cities they called the "20 most dangerous in the world," based on a report from Forbes Magazine. Among the cities listed are Memphis, Tennessee, Birmingham, Alabama, and Atlanta, Georgia.
Those are definitely not among the most dangerous cities in the United States. No one care what Venezuela has to say. When discussing crime statistics in the United States, it is always best to browse the FBI site.
It is now early August and Trump still hasn't been impeached.
Venezuela warned their citizens to avoid cities they called the "20 most dangerous in the world," based on a report from Forbes Magazine. Among the cities listed are Memphis, Tennessee, Birmingham, Alabama, and Atlanta, Georgia.
Those are definitely not among the most dangerous cities in the United States. No one care what Venezuela has to say. When discussing crime statistics in the United States, it is always best to browse the FBI site.
It is now early August and Trump still hasn't been impeached.
His obstruction and stonewalling has worked so far but that's not a thing to be celebrated.
But on that front there have been a few, slow, developments. Dems have filed a lawsuit against Don McGahn. "The Judiciary Committee is now determining whether to recommend articles of impeachment against the President based on the obstructive conduct described by the Special Counsel," the lawsuit reads. "But it cannot fulfill this most solemn constitutional responsibility without hearing testimony from a crucial witness to these events: former White House Counsel Donald F. McGahn II."
Venezuela warned their citizens to avoid cities they called the "20 most dangerous in the world," based on a report from Forbes Magazine. Among the cities listed are Memphis, Tennessee, Birmingham, Alabama, and Atlanta, Georgia.
Those are definitely not among the most dangerous cities in the United States. No one care what Venezuela has to say. When discussing crime statistics in the United States, it is always best to browse the FBI site.
It is now early August and Trump still hasn't been impeached.
His obstruction and stonewalling has worked so far but that's not a thing to be celebrated.
But on that front there have been a few, slow, developments. Dems have filed a lawsuit against Don McGahn. "The Judiciary Committee is now determining whether to recommend articles of impeachment against the President based on the obstructive conduct described by the Special Counsel," the lawsuit reads. "But it cannot fulfill this most solemn constitutional responsibility without hearing testimony from a crucial witness to these events: former White House Counsel Donald F. McGahn II."
I read that agents were questioning some of the higher ups at the plant and asking the workers about employment practices there. Also, some employees have been informants for the government for going on a year or so now. Let's see if anything comes from this.
Venezuela warned their citizens to avoid cities they called the "20 most dangerous in the world," based on a report from Forbes Magazine. Among the cities listed are Memphis, Tennessee, Birmingham, Alabama, and Atlanta, Georgia.
Those are definitely not among the most dangerous cities in the United States. No one care what Venezuela has to say. When discussing crime statistics in the United States, it is always best to browse the FBI site.
It is now early August and Trump still hasn't been impeached.
His obstruction and stonewalling has worked so far but that's not a thing to be celebrated.
But on that front there have been a few, slow, developments. Dems have filed a lawsuit against Don McGahn. "The Judiciary Committee is now determining whether to recommend articles of impeachment against the President based on the obstructive conduct described by the Special Counsel," the lawsuit reads. "But it cannot fulfill this most solemn constitutional responsibility without hearing testimony from a crucial witness to these events: former White House Counsel Donald F. McGahn II."
I read that agents were questioning some of the higher ups at the plant and asking the workers about employment practices there. Also, some employees have been informants for the government for going on a year or so now. Let's see if anything comes from this.
(Disclosure: this is not personally directed at @Balrog99)
Narrator: Nothing will
I can't take this seriously as being about illegal immigration for a single millisecond when over 600 people are rounded up and we're supposed to believe that NO ONE in managment or ownership knew anything. Horse. Shit. Until I start seeing plant owners and heads of HR in cuffs, this is only about one thing.
By the way, these type of plants are the EXACT type of hell-hole job most Americans will not do. If you think they're hiring illegals for any other reason than they likely have 85-90% turnover and can blackmail them to stay, you're deluding yourself. So either show me one of these owners or executives in court answering charges, or spare me the disingenuous horseshit about saving "American jobs". The people rounded-up probably have a work-ethic 200x larger than your average American.
Nothing these workers did is a 1/10th, a 1/100th as bad as what management and ownership are engaged in. While their families are likely torn apart forever, Conrad the Operations Manager is probably building a new pool in his backyard from the bonus he got for hiring so many undocumented workers. This issue isn't a story about "migrant hordes" invading America. Like nearly everything else, it's about bottomless corporate, blood-sucking greed. It's times like this as an agnostic I truly hope there is a hell for these people to rot in. How about those who supposedly care so goddamn much about this issue turn their ire where it belongs instead of punching down on people who are doing nothing but trying to provide food for their families. There is nothing I hate more than turning the downtrodden and powerless into the villians while bloated pigs profiting from their work get off without so much as a harsh word in their direction.
And as a final aside, let's see how many of those rounded up end up being legal residents or full-blown citizens. Because I bet it'll be more than a handful. Wonder how we'll justify that. Probably like we've justified everything else.
What do you do though? Put the owner in prison? Fine them? Any punishment that results in closing of the factory would not help the people working there either. I guess you could slap them in irons and auction the business off. Not sure that wouldn't just be offering fish food for the sharks though...
-Rich folks hire undocumented workers on the cheap
-Rich folks fund the election of other rich folks
-Rich folks fund fake populism to make low paid people hate the workers hired on the cheap
-Rich folks "enforce the law" but they only hurt the people who were hired on the cheap
There is nothing missing from that. That's the whole equation. Yes, I would put them in prison. Fines are basically a swat on the ass with a ruler from someone who can barely lift the ruler. I'll quote Michael Keaton from the 1989 Batman, "You wanna get nuts?? C'mon, let's get nuts." Until this country starts marching rich, powerful people who blatantly break the law without consequence off to prison, nothing will ever change. Laws will continue to be enforced and written against only those who can't afford to buy immunity from them.
-Rich folks hire undocumented workers on the cheap
-Rich folks fund the election of other rich folks
-Rich folks fund fake populism to make low paid people hate the workers hired on the cheap
-Rich folks "enforce the law" but they only hurt the people who were hired on the cheap
There is nothing missing from that. That's the whole equation. Yes, I would put them in prison. Fines are basically a swat on the ass with a ruler from someone who can barely lift the ruler. I'll quote Michael Keaton from the 1989 Batman, "You wanna get nuts?? C'mon, let's get nuts." Until this country starts marching rich, powerful people who blatantly break the law without consequence off to prison, nothing will ever change. Laws will continue to be enforced and written against only those who can't afford to buy immunity from them.
I don't disagree, but other than grabbing the pitchforks, I dont think it's going to change anytime soon. I can't think of any government that is free from avarice? Can you? Even at the local level it's rampant (and that includes both parties).
And as a final aside, let's see how many of those rounded up end up being legal residents or full-blown citizens. Because I bet it'll be more than a handful. Wonder how we'll justify that. Probably like we've justified everything else.
Or instead of justifying, they could just go silent.
"But immigration lawyers say that by Thursday morning, about five busloads of people had been released. The terms of the workers' releases were unclear. It also was unclear whether any of those released were determined to be living in the country legally. ICE officials did not return telephone calls Thursday morning."
The notion that business owners do not face consequences after these raids is debunkable. It usually just takes more time to play out since they are afforded due processes. Take for instance the last largest illegal immigration raid at a Tennessee slaughter house. The meat packing plant owner will serve a year and half behind bars.
And as a final aside, let's see how many of those rounded up end up being legal residents or full-blown citizens. Because I bet it'll be more than a handful. Wonder how we'll justify that. Probably like we've justified everything else.
Or instead of justifying, they could just go silent.
"But immigration lawyers say that by Thursday morning, about five busloads of people had been released. The terms of the workers' releases were unclear. It also was unclear whether any of those released were determined to be living in the country legally. ICE officials did not return telephone calls Thursday morning."
Every single person detained unjustifiably in this raid should sue the government for every penny they can get. A single person apprehended in error is far greater injustice than netting 300 who weren't. And, again, you will hear CRICKETS on the every mounting number of full-blown citizens getting caught up in these nets from the MAGA crowd. Because it isn't about illegal immigration. Never was.
Hmm these arrests targeted chicken processing plants operated by Koch Foods, one of the largest poultry producers in the U.S.
Last year, Koch Foods paid out $3.75 million to settle an Equal Employment Opportunities Commission class-action suit charging the company with sexual harassment, national origin and race discrimination, and retaliation against Latino workers at one of its Mississippi plants.
Labor activists say it’s the latest raid to target factories where immigrant workers have organized unions, fought back against discrimination or challenged unsafe and unsanitary conditions.
Hmm these arrests targeted chicken processing plants operated by Koch Foods, one of the largest poultry producers in the U.S.
Last year, Koch Foods paid out $3.75 million to settle an Equal Employment Opportunities Commission class-action suit charging the company with sexual harassment, national origin and race discrimination, and retaliation against Latino workers at one of its Mississippi plants.
Labor activists say it’s the latest raid to target factories where immigrant workers have organized unions, fought back against discrimination or challenged unsafe and unsanitary conditions.
I find it highly unlikely that illegal immigrants would try to unionize. They try to stay in the shadows. Are you saying that 'legal' immigrants are forming unions and then being treated like they're 'illegals'?
His obstruction and stonewalling has worked so far but that's not a thing to be celebrated.
I am not celebrating it, merely noting it. Sometimes, you read too much into what I say.
If rich people are getting richer from the labor of illegal immigrants and skewing the playing field in their favor, then why do so many people want *more* illegal immigrants to enter the country? Are "pro-illegal immigrant" people on the payrolls of those rich fatcats? If they are not then they are essentially working for the fatcats for free, which means they should negotiate a better pay rate for themselves.
If you really want to see these people in jail then "hiring an illegal worker" needs to be classifed as "human trafficking".
His obstruction and stonewalling has worked so far but that's not a thing to be celebrated.
I am not celebrating it, merely noting it. Sometimes, you read too much into what I say.
If rich people are getting richer from the labor of illegal immigrants and skewing the playing field in their favor, then why do so many people want *more* illegal immigrants to enter the country? Are "pro-illegal immigrant" people on the payrolls of those rich fatcats? If they are not then they are essentially working for the fatcats for free, which means they should negotiate a better pay rate for themselves.
If you really want to see these people in jail then "hiring an illegal worker" needs to be classifed as "human trafficking".
Rich people do want more illegal immigrants. Cheap labor, no benefits. Easily exploitable.
Regular people are not "pro-illegal" immigrant at least the way you seem to be implying. We don't like kids separated from their parents. We don't like scapegoating "others" with lies. It's dangerous talk and will cause deaths. And it's a distraction and power grab and it's brainwashed far too many people. Illegal immigrants are powerless in society. They are not running fortune 500 companies, they're not hiring lobbyists
His obstruction and stonewalling has worked so far but that's not a thing to be celebrated.
I am not celebrating it, merely noting it. Sometimes, you read too much into what I say.
If rich people are getting richer from the labor of illegal immigrants and skewing the playing field in their favor, then why do so many people want *more* illegal immigrants to enter the country? Are "pro-illegal immigrant" people on the payrolls of those rich fatcats? If they are not then they are essentially working for the fatcats for free, which means they should negotiate a better pay rate for themselves.
If you really want to see these people in jail then "hiring an illegal worker" needs to be classifed as "human trafficking".
Rich people do want more illegal immigrants. Cheap labor, no benefits. Easily exploitable.
Regular people are not "pro-illegal" immigrant at least the way you seem to be implying. We don't like kids separated from their parents. We don't like scapegoating "others" with lies. It's dangerous talk and will cause deaths. And it's a distraction and power grab and it's brainwashed far too many people. Illegal immigrants are powerless in society. They are not running fortune 500 companies, they're not hiring lobbyists
Then the people entering the country should do it legally. They can get any job they want if they come in properly. Just saying. When they come in illegally what do they expect? Us to pay their bills for them? I'm seriously curious what you expect us to do for them when they can't be bothered to go through the process. Yeah there are predators that will take advantage of them, BUT if they are 'legal' immigrants it's much harder to get away with it. I agree that people who hire illegals should have the book thrown at them, but that doesn't mean the illegals are innocent. It sucks that their home countries are in chaos, but that doesn't mean that we're obligated to support them with our tax dollars. Voluntary money (ie: charitable contributions) is fine by me, I'd likely even chip in myself if I knew the money would be spent wisely, but the idea that I owe them somehow just because they exist is ludicrous. There are African and Asian nations that need help far more than Latin American countries and they don't have the option of jumping the border for easy access to our tax dollars. Democrats who think it's anathema that we should be the 'policemen' of the world seem to have no problem with us being the 'ambulance' of the world.
Edit: We're better off than approximately 90% of the planet. I'm really not interested in taking in 6 billion people because their countries of origin suck. Sorry...
His obstruction and stonewalling has worked so far but that's not a thing to be celebrated.
I am not celebrating it, merely noting it. Sometimes, you read too much into what I say.
If rich people are getting richer from the labor of illegal immigrants and skewing the playing field in their favor, then why do so many people want *more* illegal immigrants to enter the country? Are "pro-illegal immigrant" people on the payrolls of those rich fatcats? If they are not then they are essentially working for the fatcats for free, which means they should negotiate a better pay rate for themselves.
If you really want to see these people in jail then "hiring an illegal worker" needs to be classifed as "human trafficking".
Rich people do want more illegal immigrants. Cheap labor, no benefits. Easily exploitable.
Regular people are not "pro-illegal" immigrant at least the way you seem to be implying. We don't like kids separated from their parents. We don't like scapegoating "others" with lies. It's dangerous talk and will cause deaths. And it's a distraction and power grab and it's brainwashed far too many people. Illegal immigrants are powerless in society. They are not running fortune 500 companies, they're not hiring lobbyists
Then the people entering the country should do it legally. They can get any job they want if they come in properly. Just saying. When they come in illegally what do they expect? Us to pay their bills for them? I'm seriously curious what you expect us to do for them when they can't be bothered to go through the process. Yeah there are predators that will take advantage of them, BUT if they are 'legal' immigrants it's much harder to get away with it. I agree that people who hire illegals should have the book thrown at them, but that doesn't mean the illegals are innocent. It sucks that their home countries are in chaos, but that doesn't mean that we're obligated to support them with our tax dollars. Voluntary money (ie: charitable contributions) is fine by me, I'd likely even chip in myself if I knew the money would be spent wisely, but the idea that I owe them somehow just because they exist is ludicrous. There are African and Asian nations that need help far more than Latin American countries and they don't have the option of jumping the border for easy access to our tax dollars. Democrats who think it's anathema that we should be the 'policemen' of the world seem to have no problem with us being the 'ambulance' of the world.
Edit: We're better off than approximately 90% of the planet. I'm really not interested in taking in 6 billion people because their countries of origin suck. Sorry...
From an ethical point I always though that given that border a construct, that it is both understandable that people in a country don't want unlimited immigration and that people looking for a better life for them and their families will tend to ignore these borders especially given that some of them have very little of passing through the "legal" process. So while I agree with border and immigration controls, I disagree with demonizing people who did nothing wrong except ignoring borders.
Most importantly note that most of the asylum seekers held in the camps (including the children) did follow the official legal process by presenting themselves at a border crossing point. You can see how that did go for them. And this is ignored again and again in this discussion.
Finally, a remark as a non-American on:
Democrats who think it's anathema that we should be the 'policemen' of the world seem to have no problem with us being the 'ambulance' of the world.
When the US is the policeman of the world it is usually without the consent of the policed. If it is the ambulance of the world (which is frankly laughable, given how much the US usually was involved in the messes of the countries the immigrants are coming from), then it is so only for people who choose to come to the US. Ethically the difference between the two concepts is exactly the same as between rape and consensual sex.
This does not mean that the US should necessarily choose to be the ambulance of the world, same as you should not necessarily choose to have sex.
There are 2400 workers at that plant. Losing 680 of them caused the plant to have to shut down. If, as the prevailing wisdom constantly tells us, these people are NOT needed to fulfill the needs of the American workforce, then I would assume there will be 500 people lined up outside Koch foods tomorrow morning looking for a job denied to them by these undocumented workers. Everyone has certainly heard about it by now, ESPECIALLY in that community. Who wants to take bets on this not happening?? I'll throw real money down on it right now.
I may not have worked in a poultry processing plant, but I have work temp jobs in the past at food plants (of which a poultry plant would be infinitely worse). Again, if you think Americans are lining up to take this on as their full-time employment you are out of your mind. That is WHY they have to hire temps. The work is mind-numbing and brutal mentally. Your breaks are monitored like a hawk. You are a cog in a machine. I'd bet any amount of money 8 out of 10 people wouldn't last a week in one of them. If these people were working there full-time over the long-term, that gives me even MORE respect for them, not less. And again, let's just see how many of these people were swept in error (I should really put "error" in quotes). This took place on the first day of school in the area. It isn't hard to find the video out there of kids abandoned at school because of this raid. This was done on purpose to, once again, be as malicious as humanly possible.
If this plant is in any way a microcosm of the rest of the workforce, and unemployment is at only about 4%, then what this shows is that deporting all undocumented migrant labor would collapse certain sectors of the economy. But hey, maybe we'll all start butchering our own chickens for the cause to prove how serious we are. Fat f*****g chance.
I certainly wouldn't care if an illegal migrant was put into slavery conditions to enrich its owner. He had a choice - to stay in his shithole country and do something about the shit in it, or flee to a better country for a better pay. If he chose the latter, then he gets exactly that - a place to work and earn better money than his country could provide. I kinda doubt illegal migrants are physically chained to their workplace and are shot to death upon attempted escape, so if they stay there regardless, they must be satisfied enough to not object. And if the employer can make easy money this way and buy another yacht, then why the hell not.
If I had to flee my country, I'd expect nothing more than not being shot at the border, put into a concentration camp, given cloths with a golden star on them and told to dig from dawn till dusk if I wanted dinner. Anything above that is a charity to be grateful and thankful for, not some "human right" nonsense to be taken for granted.
What would indeed make me concerned is the quality of such work, since it's probably produced with me as a customer in mind. This is why I would start asking the employer questions and seek them responsible, not because of some human rights.
@Ardanis , I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or serious.
I sometimes read in this thread, but I don't participate, because I don't know a lot about the politics that are discussed here, especially since most is about U.S. politics, for obvious reasons.
Now, the issue with people fleeing their countries and working under dreadful conditions is another matter. We have that problem in the whole world.
We have lots of refugees from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and various African countries in Europe. Of course, refugees of war have other rights than people who flee their country for lack of perspective to find a job.
Still, people have this irrational sense of rights and privileges depending on their place of birth.
I know that we can't feed the whole world, and can't pay for everyone.
I'd just like to consider one aspect: How did I earn the right to have access to free education, good health care, the possibility to go to college although my parents had problems paying the bills at the end of the month, and now have a good job with a secure future for me and my family? Did I do anything to deserve that right?
No. I was just lucky to have been born in a country where this is considered normal. At least for citizens of said country.
Even if we're talking about illegal immigrants who just want to work, who were not persecuted, what kind of realistic chance do they have to change their countries? Can they become politicians? Can they eat dirt and teach themselves and find work where there is no work? Or is it more likely that they will either take the quick road into criminal activity, or flee illegally to other countries?
There are countless people dying in the Mediterranean Sea this very moment, in boats barely fit to cross a lake on a mild summer's day.
Do you really think they would risk their lives like that if they saw a realistic choice in their home country?
And several of those countries are in disastrous conditions also because of our colonialism in the past, and our economy that exploits their resources, and exported weapons that are used in civil wars.
I'm not saying we can and have to save them all, but I think we have a responsibility. And I also think that many of us would have made the same decision to flee. To say they have a choice to remain in their country, or to find better working conditions, is cynical in several cases.
And there are factories and plants, also where I live (I'm German), and in other European countries, where none of the unemployed people who complain about foreigners stealing their jobs would want to work. I'm certain of that, because I know people who have worked under those conditions, both legally and illegally.
There are people who sleep under bridges and eat scraps and bathe in public fountains. I've met them, in Spain for example. They were not criminals, they were polite and glad to earn some money. They worked 16 hours a day, in the fields, hard work, every day, in the Spanish summer sun. They went "home" to their bridge at night with 20€ for those 16 hours.
They were accepting that because they had no choice, and they sent the biggest part of that money home to their families.
So, they should be grateful for that, because it's better than what they had in Mali or wherever they came from? Or shouldn't their "employer" be ashamed to make a profit that way? Isn't my wish to buy cheaper vegetables also part of that chain?
Nobody wants to do their job. So, give them the right to immigrate legally, and then you give them equal pay with equal rights, and punish the employer who kept modern slaves, not the person who worked hard and only wanted a future.
I have a good friend who grew up in a Kenyan slum. He was lucky to go to college through church charity, but he couldn't find work later, because of his background. He lived in an area where someone would hide drugs or a weapon in your home, and if you got caught, the police would shoot you without asking, because prisons were full and there were too many armed young men in the streets.
A friend, also through a church community network, got him a tourist visa and a plane ticket to Spain. He remained there illegally, hiding and working and sending money so that his 6 sisters could go to school instead of having to marry early. What could he have done remaining in his country? Getting refusal after refusal from companies, because they wouldn't hire a young man from Kibera? Dealing drugs and ending up being shot in the street, like some guys he had played with as a kid?
In Spain, he did all kinds of hard work, illegally of course, and also taught some English to school kids who needed a little extra help.
After several years, he finally got a legal work permit and is now teaching English at a language school, to young people who need English to... guess what? Find a job in another country, because there's a high youth unemployment rate in Spain. Only, they have legal options to find work in another country.
Most people will choose legal options if they exist.
Again, I know we can't feed and educate millions of people. But I wanted to share some of their stories, because those "illegals" have faces, fates, stories and families. Most of them have never committed a crime, except for the illegal immigration. And most of them have made choices that I could imagine making, too, facing a similar situation. I was just lucky enough to have been born in a place where I don't need to worry about that.
If our economy is fair and we stop exploiting others and work together, some people might see more chances in their home countries. If they get legal opportunities to immigrate, we might have the workers we need in some places. If those of us who can afford it develop enough conscience to look at the conditions how something was produced, and not only the price tag, then producers in poorer countries have a real choice and perspective. I'm not talking about charity, I'm talking about fair chances to trade and to work, and to accept other people as fellow human beings who just happened to be less lucky in their place of birth or the history and political connections of their country.
But I guess that's just me being incredibly naive again.
*Damned Vanilla changed to the wysiwyg editor again. I'm trying to quote Balrog here, let's see if it works.
Edit: nope it didn't work. This is the post I was replying to:
"Then the people entering the country should do it legally. They can get any job they want if they come in properly. Just saying. When they come in illegally what do they expect? Us to pay their bills for them? I'm seriously curious what you expect us to do for them when they can't be bothered to go through the process. Yeah there are predators that will take advantage of them, BUT if they are 'legal' immigrants it's much harder to get away with it. I agree that people who hire illegals should have the book thrown at them, but that doesn't mean the illegals are innocent. It sucks that their home countries are in chaos, but that doesn't mean that we're obligated to support them with our tax dollars. Voluntary money (ie: charitable contributions) is fine by me, I'd likely even chip in myself if I knew the money would be spent wisely, but the idea that I owe them somehow just because they exist is ludicrous. There are African and Asian nations that need help far more than Latin American countries and they don't have the option of jumping the border for easy access to our tax dollars. Democrats who think it's anathema that we should be the 'policemen' of the world seem to have no problem with us being the 'ambulance' of the world."
Once again the Republican fantasy of the "deadbeat illegal" rears its ugly head.
In the real world, undocumented foreigners aren't eligible for any assistance. They can't get welfare, they can't get food stamps. Some states allow them to get emergency medical care for their kids, but that's about it. Study after study has confirmed that, on the whole, undocumented workers put more into the tax coffers than they get out, since the paperwork chicanery that allows them to work usually includes paying taxes, but they're still not eligible for assistance.
As for "they should enter the country legally": They can't. We won't allow them to. There's no such thing as an easy to get temporary worker visa for seasonal farm and construction workers. This is something I've harped on about before. Our immigration laws say "You can't come in" while our business owners say "We'll give you a job if you sneak across the border." If you want to solve the illegal problem overnight, create that visa. Our laws are set up specifically to create this situation. Those (mostly Republican) business owners want those low cost workers, so they must be kept illegal, so they'll accept low pay and poor conditions.
All this stuff at the border, the "invasion" talk, the concentration camps, the crying children, is just to distract us from the bulk of the issue. The asylum seekers number in the thousands, the undocumented workers number just over 10 million. The people Trump is torturing at the border are a drop in the bucket compared to the low cost workforce that keeps our lettuce prices down.
Not sure what's going on with the interface so I won't even try to quote you. I think the reason there is no work-visa that you describe is that liberals and labor organizers would let that last about two weeks before they started screaming about worker exploitation and there would then soon be no difference between that visa and a regular visa. I'm guessing unscrupulous businessmen would then start illegally skirting the work-visa (again) and it would be useless. Truth be told, I'd have no problem if they gave all of those poultry workers a special visa and allowed them to stay. Good workers are in short supply.
However, it's not that simple and all of you folks on the left know it. Tell me you'd be all for them working where they're at, at the pay they've already agreed to and can't become a full-citizen for 5-7 years. I sincerely doubt it. Therefore you're saying that these people are 'entitled' to all of the benefits of a full-citizen without legally entering the country. Period...
I've told this story numerous times over the years, but I'll try to put it into context. This isn't some hypothetical situation I've read about in the paper. I've seen it. I've WORKED with them before. Though it's insulting to really say I actually DID anything compared to the undocumented migrants. On the farmland of my friend's dad in high school. He was lucky if he could get 4 hours out of us half-assing it picking rocks in the field. The migrant workers?? They were packed into a van as full as it could fit. They came prepared for 16 hours days. They had the right clothing for it. They were like machines. My friend's dad, who isn't just conservative but someone who uses the N-word in casual conversation, would praise their work effort compared to ours, which was totally justifiable. He had a trailer in his backyard for them to LIVE in during the summer. I have no idea what he was paying them, but I know this much as a mortal certainty, which is that they were 1000x more valuable to him than 4 or 5 high school students who were the only other candidates to pick rocks out of his beet fields.
So someone explain how guys like this can possibly justify, 20 years later, supporting a President with these kind of draconian immigration policies. Trump himself, the owner of this poultry plant, my friend's dad. All different levels of power, but ALL of them purposefully, willfully, and blatantly taking advantage of undocumented migrant labor on one hand, and then turning around and pretending like they aren't at the absolute root of the problem. Again, Trump's properties have been found to have been employing DOZENS of undocumented workers, and somehow it isn't even a blip on the radar in the national debate. Nothing with happen to the owner of this poultry plant. Yet what do we have on the news?? Brown people being taken into custody. Meanwhile, a full 6% of the illegal workforce in this country is from Europe or Canada. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 720,000. Anyone mind telling me where the raids on THEIR places of the work are??
I give up trying to use the quote feature. I'd venture to guess that the Canadians and Europeans are scattered amongst regular workers, rather than concentrated together in the same workplace. That makes it much harder to find them. I'd be all for giving them the boot too if they're caught.
Comments
US is a continental country, Compared to average, US has 5.30 murders / 100 k people, Argentina has 5.10, Uruguay 8.20 and Chile 4.30 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
So yes, US is more violent than the "southern cone", but far more pacific than the Carib. And the southern cone is the region with the strongest gun culture and most armed region of "latin america". You as a tourist can rent an .30-06 rifle ant hunt Boar on Argentina, while an Mexican citizen can't own legally anything stronger than .380 ACP and even an .380 ACP requires an insane bureaucracy. https://www.craigboddington.com/endorsed-outfitters/hunting-tips/best-hunt-argentina
They aren't perfect, there are a lot of restrictions on or eg, full auto and semi auto rifles(not sure) and much paperwork to own an legal firearm, this is why there are more unregistered firearms than registered firearms.. And Mexico has 24.8 homicides / 100k hab.
I never understood the logic "criminals and politicians should have the gun monopoly" that some people advocate.
I wouldn't worry. It can't be a good idea because Trump didn't come up with it himself...
Here in Russia we've got a lot of pancake kiosks, and last time I checked they offered about $700/month for a job like that, which is ever so slightly above the mean even (by whole country). Before the course plummeted, that would've been probably $1100, a third of American wage. And the Russian incomes are generally considered to be a third of Americans.
As for prices, while the blins they serve are great, any time I think about buying one I have to remind myself I can spend those $3-4 equivalent to buy myself enough meat and vegetables to cook a full dinner and have some leftovers for evening.
Those are definitely not among the most dangerous cities in the United States. No one care what Venezuela has to say. When discussing crime statistics in the United States, it is always best to browse the FBI site.
It is now early August and Trump still hasn't been impeached.
His obstruction and stonewalling has worked so far but that's not a thing to be celebrated.
But on that front there have been a few, slow, developments. Dems have filed a lawsuit against Don McGahn. "The Judiciary Committee is now determining whether to recommend articles of impeachment against the President based on the obstructive conduct described by the Special Counsel," the lawsuit reads. "But it cannot fulfill this most solemn constitutional responsibility without hearing testimony from a crucial witness to these events: former White House Counsel Donald F. McGahn II."
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/house-democrats-ready-lawsuit-enforce-subpoena-mcgahn-testimony/story?id=64825821
ICE arrested more than 600 at Koch Foods plants in Mississippi. The plant is owned by Joseph Grendys, a billionaire. His company Koch Foods has been dogged by accusations of racism and abusive working conditions
I read that agents were questioning some of the higher ups at the plant and asking the workers about employment practices there. Also, some employees have been informants for the government for going on a year or so now. Let's see if anything comes from this.
(Disclosure: this is not personally directed at @Balrog99)
Narrator: Nothing will
I can't take this seriously as being about illegal immigration for a single millisecond when over 600 people are rounded up and we're supposed to believe that NO ONE in managment or ownership knew anything. Horse. Shit. Until I start seeing plant owners and heads of HR in cuffs, this is only about one thing.
By the way, these type of plants are the EXACT type of hell-hole job most Americans will not do. If you think they're hiring illegals for any other reason than they likely have 85-90% turnover and can blackmail them to stay, you're deluding yourself. So either show me one of these owners or executives in court answering charges, or spare me the disingenuous horseshit about saving "American jobs". The people rounded-up probably have a work-ethic 200x larger than your average American.
Nothing these workers did is a 1/10th, a 1/100th as bad as what management and ownership are engaged in. While their families are likely torn apart forever, Conrad the Operations Manager is probably building a new pool in his backyard from the bonus he got for hiring so many undocumented workers. This issue isn't a story about "migrant hordes" invading America. Like nearly everything else, it's about bottomless corporate, blood-sucking greed. It's times like this as an agnostic I truly hope there is a hell for these people to rot in. How about those who supposedly care so goddamn much about this issue turn their ire where it belongs instead of punching down on people who are doing nothing but trying to provide food for their families. There is nothing I hate more than turning the downtrodden and powerless into the villians while bloated pigs profiting from their work get off without so much as a harsh word in their direction.
And as a final aside, let's see how many of those rounded up end up being legal residents or full-blown citizens. Because I bet it'll be more than a handful. Wonder how we'll justify that. Probably like we've justified everything else.
-Rich folks hire undocumented workers on the cheap
-Rich folks fund the election of other rich folks
-Rich folks fund fake populism to make low paid people hate the workers hired on the cheap
-Rich folks "enforce the law" but they only hurt the people who were hired on the cheap
There is nothing missing from that. That's the whole equation. Yes, I would put them in prison. Fines are basically a swat on the ass with a ruler from someone who can barely lift the ruler. I'll quote Michael Keaton from the 1989 Batman, "You wanna get nuts?? C'mon, let's get nuts." Until this country starts marching rich, powerful people who blatantly break the law without consequence off to prison, nothing will ever change. Laws will continue to be enforced and written against only those who can't afford to buy immunity from them.
I don't disagree, but other than grabbing the pitchforks, I dont think it's going to change anytime soon. I can't think of any government that is free from avarice? Can you? Even at the local level it's rampant (and that includes both parties).
Or instead of justifying, they could just go silent.
Receptionist must be on vacation. It is summer...
Every single person detained unjustifiably in this raid should sue the government for every penny they can get. A single person apprehended in error is far greater injustice than netting 300 who weren't. And, again, you will hear CRICKETS on the every mounting number of full-blown citizens getting caught up in these nets from the MAGA crowd. Because it isn't about illegal immigration. Never was.
Last year, Koch Foods paid out $3.75 million to settle an Equal Employment Opportunities Commission class-action suit charging the company with sexual harassment, national origin and race discrimination, and retaliation against Latino workers at one of its Mississippi plants.
Labor activists say it’s the latest raid to target factories where immigrant workers have organized unions, fought back against discrimination or challenged unsafe and unsanitary conditions.
I find it highly unlikely that illegal immigrants would try to unionize. They try to stay in the shadows. Are you saying that 'legal' immigrants are forming unions and then being treated like they're 'illegals'?
I am not celebrating it, merely noting it. Sometimes, you read too much into what I say.
If rich people are getting richer from the labor of illegal immigrants and skewing the playing field in their favor, then why do so many people want *more* illegal immigrants to enter the country? Are "pro-illegal immigrant" people on the payrolls of those rich fatcats? If they are not then they are essentially working for the fatcats for free, which means they should negotiate a better pay rate for themselves.
If you really want to see these people in jail then "hiring an illegal worker" needs to be classifed as "human trafficking".
Rich people do want more illegal immigrants. Cheap labor, no benefits. Easily exploitable.
Regular people are not "pro-illegal" immigrant at least the way you seem to be implying. We don't like kids separated from their parents. We don't like scapegoating "others" with lies. It's dangerous talk and will cause deaths. And it's a distraction and power grab and it's brainwashed far too many people. Illegal immigrants are powerless in society. They are not running fortune 500 companies, they're not hiring lobbyists
Then the people entering the country should do it legally. They can get any job they want if they come in properly. Just saying. When they come in illegally what do they expect? Us to pay their bills for them? I'm seriously curious what you expect us to do for them when they can't be bothered to go through the process. Yeah there are predators that will take advantage of them, BUT if they are 'legal' immigrants it's much harder to get away with it. I agree that people who hire illegals should have the book thrown at them, but that doesn't mean the illegals are innocent. It sucks that their home countries are in chaos, but that doesn't mean that we're obligated to support them with our tax dollars. Voluntary money (ie: charitable contributions) is fine by me, I'd likely even chip in myself if I knew the money would be spent wisely, but the idea that I owe them somehow just because they exist is ludicrous. There are African and Asian nations that need help far more than Latin American countries and they don't have the option of jumping the border for easy access to our tax dollars. Democrats who think it's anathema that we should be the 'policemen' of the world seem to have no problem with us being the 'ambulance' of the world.
Edit: We're better off than approximately 90% of the planet. I'm really not interested in taking in 6 billion people because their countries of origin suck. Sorry...
From an ethical point I always though that given that border a construct, that it is both understandable that people in a country don't want unlimited immigration and that people looking for a better life for them and their families will tend to ignore these borders especially given that some of them have very little of passing through the "legal" process. So while I agree with border and immigration controls, I disagree with demonizing people who did nothing wrong except ignoring borders.
Most importantly note that most of the asylum seekers held in the camps (including the children) did follow the official legal process by presenting themselves at a border crossing point. You can see how that did go for them. And this is ignored again and again in this discussion.
Finally, a remark as a non-American on:
When the US is the policeman of the world it is usually without the consent of the policed. If it is the ambulance of the world (which is frankly laughable, given how much the US usually was involved in the messes of the countries the immigrants are coming from), then it is so only for people who choose to come to the US. Ethically the difference between the two concepts is exactly the same as between rape and consensual sex.
This does not mean that the US should necessarily choose to be the ambulance of the world, same as you should not necessarily choose to have sex.
I may not have worked in a poultry processing plant, but I have work temp jobs in the past at food plants (of which a poultry plant would be infinitely worse). Again, if you think Americans are lining up to take this on as their full-time employment you are out of your mind. That is WHY they have to hire temps. The work is mind-numbing and brutal mentally. Your breaks are monitored like a hawk. You are a cog in a machine. I'd bet any amount of money 8 out of 10 people wouldn't last a week in one of them. If these people were working there full-time over the long-term, that gives me even MORE respect for them, not less. And again, let's just see how many of these people were swept in error (I should really put "error" in quotes). This took place on the first day of school in the area. It isn't hard to find the video out there of kids abandoned at school because of this raid. This was done on purpose to, once again, be as malicious as humanly possible.
If this plant is in any way a microcosm of the rest of the workforce, and unemployment is at only about 4%, then what this shows is that deporting all undocumented migrant labor would collapse certain sectors of the economy. But hey, maybe we'll all start butchering our own chickens for the cause to prove how serious we are. Fat f*****g chance.
If I had to flee my country, I'd expect nothing more than not being shot at the border, put into a concentration camp, given cloths with a golden star on them and told to dig from dawn till dusk if I wanted dinner. Anything above that is a charity to be grateful and thankful for, not some "human right" nonsense to be taken for granted.
What would indeed make me concerned is the quality of such work, since it's probably produced with me as a customer in mind. This is why I would start asking the employer questions and seek them responsible, not because of some human rights.
I sometimes read in this thread, but I don't participate, because I don't know a lot about the politics that are discussed here, especially since most is about U.S. politics, for obvious reasons.
Now, the issue with people fleeing their countries and working under dreadful conditions is another matter. We have that problem in the whole world.
We have lots of refugees from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and various African countries in Europe. Of course, refugees of war have other rights than people who flee their country for lack of perspective to find a job.
Still, people have this irrational sense of rights and privileges depending on their place of birth.
I know that we can't feed the whole world, and can't pay for everyone.
I'd just like to consider one aspect: How did I earn the right to have access to free education, good health care, the possibility to go to college although my parents had problems paying the bills at the end of the month, and now have a good job with a secure future for me and my family? Did I do anything to deserve that right?
No. I was just lucky to have been born in a country where this is considered normal. At least for citizens of said country.
Even if we're talking about illegal immigrants who just want to work, who were not persecuted, what kind of realistic chance do they have to change their countries? Can they become politicians? Can they eat dirt and teach themselves and find work where there is no work? Or is it more likely that they will either take the quick road into criminal activity, or flee illegally to other countries?
There are countless people dying in the Mediterranean Sea this very moment, in boats barely fit to cross a lake on a mild summer's day.
Do you really think they would risk their lives like that if they saw a realistic choice in their home country?
And several of those countries are in disastrous conditions also because of our colonialism in the past, and our economy that exploits their resources, and exported weapons that are used in civil wars.
I'm not saying we can and have to save them all, but I think we have a responsibility. And I also think that many of us would have made the same decision to flee. To say they have a choice to remain in their country, or to find better working conditions, is cynical in several cases.
And there are factories and plants, also where I live (I'm German), and in other European countries, where none of the unemployed people who complain about foreigners stealing their jobs would want to work. I'm certain of that, because I know people who have worked under those conditions, both legally and illegally.
There are people who sleep under bridges and eat scraps and bathe in public fountains. I've met them, in Spain for example. They were not criminals, they were polite and glad to earn some money. They worked 16 hours a day, in the fields, hard work, every day, in the Spanish summer sun. They went "home" to their bridge at night with 20€ for those 16 hours.
They were accepting that because they had no choice, and they sent the biggest part of that money home to their families.
So, they should be grateful for that, because it's better than what they had in Mali or wherever they came from? Or shouldn't their "employer" be ashamed to make a profit that way? Isn't my wish to buy cheaper vegetables also part of that chain?
Nobody wants to do their job. So, give them the right to immigrate legally, and then you give them equal pay with equal rights, and punish the employer who kept modern slaves, not the person who worked hard and only wanted a future.
I have a good friend who grew up in a Kenyan slum. He was lucky to go to college through church charity, but he couldn't find work later, because of his background. He lived in an area where someone would hide drugs or a weapon in your home, and if you got caught, the police would shoot you without asking, because prisons were full and there were too many armed young men in the streets.
A friend, also through a church community network, got him a tourist visa and a plane ticket to Spain. He remained there illegally, hiding and working and sending money so that his 6 sisters could go to school instead of having to marry early. What could he have done remaining in his country? Getting refusal after refusal from companies, because they wouldn't hire a young man from Kibera? Dealing drugs and ending up being shot in the street, like some guys he had played with as a kid?
In Spain, he did all kinds of hard work, illegally of course, and also taught some English to school kids who needed a little extra help.
After several years, he finally got a legal work permit and is now teaching English at a language school, to young people who need English to... guess what? Find a job in another country, because there's a high youth unemployment rate in Spain. Only, they have legal options to find work in another country.
Most people will choose legal options if they exist.
Again, I know we can't feed and educate millions of people. But I wanted to share some of their stories, because those "illegals" have faces, fates, stories and families. Most of them have never committed a crime, except for the illegal immigration. And most of them have made choices that I could imagine making, too, facing a similar situation. I was just lucky enough to have been born in a place where I don't need to worry about that.
If our economy is fair and we stop exploiting others and work together, some people might see more chances in their home countries. If they get legal opportunities to immigrate, we might have the workers we need in some places. If those of us who can afford it develop enough conscience to look at the conditions how something was produced, and not only the price tag, then producers in poorer countries have a real choice and perspective. I'm not talking about charity, I'm talking about fair chances to trade and to work, and to accept other people as fellow human beings who just happened to be less lucky in their place of birth or the history and political connections of their country.
But I guess that's just me being incredibly naive again.
*Damned Vanilla changed to the wysiwyg editor again. I'm trying to quote Balrog here, let's see if it works.
Edit: nope it didn't work. This is the post I was replying to:
"Then the people entering the country should do it legally. They can get any job they want if they come in properly. Just saying. When they come in illegally what do they expect? Us to pay their bills for them? I'm seriously curious what you expect us to do for them when they can't be bothered to go through the process. Yeah there are predators that will take advantage of them, BUT if they are 'legal' immigrants it's much harder to get away with it. I agree that people who hire illegals should have the book thrown at them, but that doesn't mean the illegals are innocent. It sucks that their home countries are in chaos, but that doesn't mean that we're obligated to support them with our tax dollars. Voluntary money (ie: charitable contributions) is fine by me, I'd likely even chip in myself if I knew the money would be spent wisely, but the idea that I owe them somehow just because they exist is ludicrous. There are African and Asian nations that need help far more than Latin American countries and they don't have the option of jumping the border for easy access to our tax dollars. Democrats who think it's anathema that we should be the 'policemen' of the world seem to have no problem with us being the 'ambulance' of the world."
Once again the Republican fantasy of the "deadbeat illegal" rears its ugly head.
In the real world, undocumented foreigners aren't eligible for any assistance. They can't get welfare, they can't get food stamps. Some states allow them to get emergency medical care for their kids, but that's about it. Study after study has confirmed that, on the whole, undocumented workers put more into the tax coffers than they get out, since the paperwork chicanery that allows them to work usually includes paying taxes, but they're still not eligible for assistance.
As for "they should enter the country legally": They can't. We won't allow them to. There's no such thing as an easy to get temporary worker visa for seasonal farm and construction workers. This is something I've harped on about before. Our immigration laws say "You can't come in" while our business owners say "We'll give you a job if you sneak across the border." If you want to solve the illegal problem overnight, create that visa. Our laws are set up specifically to create this situation. Those (mostly Republican) business owners want those low cost workers, so they must be kept illegal, so they'll accept low pay and poor conditions.
All this stuff at the border, the "invasion" talk, the concentration camps, the crying children, is just to distract us from the bulk of the issue. The asylum seekers number in the thousands, the undocumented workers number just over 10 million. The people Trump is torturing at the border are a drop in the bucket compared to the low cost workforce that keeps our lettuce prices down.
@BillyYank
Not sure what's going on with the interface so I won't even try to quote you. I think the reason there is no work-visa that you describe is that liberals and labor organizers would let that last about two weeks before they started screaming about worker exploitation and there would then soon be no difference between that visa and a regular visa. I'm guessing unscrupulous businessmen would then start illegally skirting the work-visa (again) and it would be useless. Truth be told, I'd have no problem if they gave all of those poultry workers a special visa and allowed them to stay. Good workers are in short supply.
However, it's not that simple and all of you folks on the left know it. Tell me you'd be all for them working where they're at, at the pay they've already agreed to and can't become a full-citizen for 5-7 years. I sincerely doubt it. Therefore you're saying that these people are 'entitled' to all of the benefits of a full-citizen without legally entering the country. Period...
I've told this story numerous times over the years, but I'll try to put it into context. This isn't some hypothetical situation I've read about in the paper. I've seen it. I've WORKED with them before. Though it's insulting to really say I actually DID anything compared to the undocumented migrants. On the farmland of my friend's dad in high school. He was lucky if he could get 4 hours out of us half-assing it picking rocks in the field. The migrant workers?? They were packed into a van as full as it could fit. They came prepared for 16 hours days. They had the right clothing for it. They were like machines. My friend's dad, who isn't just conservative but someone who uses the N-word in casual conversation, would praise their work effort compared to ours, which was totally justifiable. He had a trailer in his backyard for them to LIVE in during the summer. I have no idea what he was paying them, but I know this much as a mortal certainty, which is that they were 1000x more valuable to him than 4 or 5 high school students who were the only other candidates to pick rocks out of his beet fields.
So someone explain how guys like this can possibly justify, 20 years later, supporting a President with these kind of draconian immigration policies. Trump himself, the owner of this poultry plant, my friend's dad. All different levels of power, but ALL of them purposefully, willfully, and blatantly taking advantage of undocumented migrant labor on one hand, and then turning around and pretending like they aren't at the absolute root of the problem. Again, Trump's properties have been found to have been employing DOZENS of undocumented workers, and somehow it isn't even a blip on the radar in the national debate. Nothing with happen to the owner of this poultry plant. Yet what do we have on the news?? Brown people being taken into custody. Meanwhile, a full 6% of the illegal workforce in this country is from Europe or Canada. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 720,000. Anyone mind telling me where the raids on THEIR places of the work are??
@jjstraka34
I give up trying to use the quote feature. I'd venture to guess that the Canadians and Europeans are scattered amongst regular workers, rather than concentrated together in the same workplace. That makes it much harder to find them. I'd be all for giving them the boot too if they're caught.
If illegal immigration could be discouraged by a change to forum posting, this new comment box would have a 100% success rate.