Here I think Trump is being trolled and pulled in. The DNC would be doing themselves a favor if they could get Trump to run against Obama/Biden. If they can pull off that fusing they might just beat Trump.
Here I think Trump is being trolled and pulled in. The DNC would be doing themselves a favor if they could get Trump to run against Obama/Biden. If they can pull off that fusing they might just beat Trump.
Just a thought.
I mean, people can say what they want about him, but Obama is about 15 points more popular than Trump on his best day. There is a reason Lindsey Graham doesn't want to put Obama on TV in a Senate hearing, and it isn't just because it's a ridiculous precedent. The smart Republicans have no interest in running against Obama (as a proxy) a third time. Neither 2008 or 2012 was remotely close in any metric by modern standards. In a sane country, the fact that Trump keeps saying Obama didn't leave him a stockpile of COVID-19 tests 3 1/2 years before the disease existed would be grounds for saying "this guy isn't up to the job", but, believe it or not, millions of people find this to be a legitimate and persuasive argument.
Yeah, The whole Obamagate thing is incredible for a few reasons.
First - it doesnt make any good sense for Trump to run against Obama in that Obama is far more popular than Trump is, and cutting that contrast only serves to alienate the fringe voters he desperately needs to win.
Second - It's not working. He keeps trying to push Obamagate as a thing because it kinda worked with Clinton's emails. Luckily, the "both sides" media has started to catch on that they gave a vastly disproportionate amount of time to her emails than the issue warranted. They dont appear to be doing that with "Obamagate".
Yeah, The whole Obamagate thing is incredible for a few reasons.
First - it doesnt make any good sense for Trump to run against Obama in that Obama is far more popular than Trump is, and cutting that contrast only serves to alienate the fringe voters he desperately needs to win.
Second - It's not working. He keeps trying to push Obamagate as a thing because it kinda worked with Clinton's emails. Luckily, the "both sides" media has started to catch on that they gave a vastly disproportionate amount of time to her emails than the issue warranted. They dont appear to be doing that with "Obamagate".
Nevermind that when asked to explain what it is, his answer was "you know what it is". Because even he hasn't bothered to take the time to figure out what the story supposedly is. Again, it's just these words that go in the lexicon in right-wing media. Fast and Furious, Solyndra, Benghazi, Burisma, Emails, Unmasked, Obamagate. Give me 100 Trump voters and I'll bet $1000 99 of them can't accurately explain any two of these "scandals".
Here I think Trump is being trolled and pulled in. The DNC would be doing themselves a favor if they could get Trump to run against Obama/Biden. If they can pull off that fusing they might just beat Trump.
Just a thought.
No, this is actually standard campaign strategy for this stage in an election cycle, imo. People like JJ are correct that reminding the public of Obama is probably unwise in the general. But this is red meat to get activists and donors pumped up to participate in the campaign.
If someone wants to say this is a product of Trump's pathologies or stupidity, I won't disagree. But the problem is, the whole party is embracing this, it looks it. Either tacitly, or some folks, actively.
I suspect we see little emphasis of this invented scandal by the campaign in the fall. It's there to be placed in conservative media now where it can metastasize and help carry the activist and donor base through these otherwise disheartening times.
Obama is allegedly going to come out strong for Biden (stronger than he did for Clinton) this election and starting a conspiracy that right wing media can attach to (such as everytime Obama makes an appearance someone from Fox News asks how about Obamagate) will muddle any message he and Biden are attempting to promote at that time.
The story will no longer be about an issue but something like “Obama willing to have open investigation regarding Obamagate concerns.”
Obama is allegedly going to come out strong for Biden (stronger than he did for Clinton) this election and starting a conspiracy that right wing media can attach to (such as everytime Obama makes an appearance someone from Fox News asks how about Obamagate) will muddle any message he and Biden are attempting to promote at that time.
The story will no longer be about an issue but something like “Obama willing to have open investigation regarding Obamagate concerns.”
There are two problems with this:
First - it need to stick. Clinton’s email scandal was given life because it was relatively easy to understand (Where did they go?) and it reinforced her image as corrupt. Obamagate shows no signs of sticking because it’s convoluted and Obama’s legacy is one of not being corrupt (especially when contrasted against Trump’s exceptional corruption).
Second - Obama is significantly more popular than Trump (or Biden). The actual worst thing that could happen to Trump is to try to run against Obama right now. So any media narrative that constantly references and compares Obama and Trump is a bad one.
I rather like @DinoDin ’s answer here instead. Play up Obamagate now when the average voter isn’t watching and try to use it to gain traction with the political class. I don’t think it’s a great idea - since it’s not like he’s lacking for money of activists right now - but he doesn’t like being blamed for anything, so it’s a convenient distraction from his horrid handling of COVID.
I'm seeing this in my own family. Half of my aunts and uncles are stark-raving mad about our usual Memorial Day picnic not being able to take place this year (a gathering of WELL over 100 people from all corners of Minnesota) because the park is closed for reservations. The stuff they are saying in the text my aunt forwarded me yesterday is just feral rage. Most of them are either approaching 60 or well above it. If my grandma was alive she would be around 90. I'm seriously questioning if in a hypothetical where she was still around, if they would have tried to get her to go anyway:
Apparently my aunt is getting alot of "people die everyday" from some of her brothers and sisters. It took me about a millisecond to come up with a rebuttal which was "yeah, people do die everyday, but almost nothing they die from is CONTAGIOUS." Car accidents are not contagious. Cancer is not contagious. Heart disease is not contagious. Slipping and falling and hitting your head causing a fatal skull injury is not contagious. I'm struggling to think of much of ANYTHING people "normally" die from that is.
Wanting to "re-open" is one thing. This outright refusal to even have cursory respect for the health of others by engaging in simple acts that are barely an inconvenience is another. For these people, wearing a mask or keeping your distance from others marks you as an "enemy". And that is not hyperbole.
Obama is allegedly going to come out strong for Biden (stronger than he did for Clinton) this election and starting a conspiracy that right wing media can attach to (such as everytime Obama makes an appearance someone from Fox News asks how about Obamagate) will muddle any message he and Biden are attempting to promote at that time.
The story will no longer be about an issue but something like “Obama willing to have open investigation regarding Obamagate concerns.”
There are two problems with this:
First - it need to stick. Clinton’s email scandal was given life because it was relatively easy to understand (Where did they go?) and it reinforced her image as corrupt. Obamagate shows no signs of sticking because it’s convoluted and Obama’s legacy is one of not being corrupt (especially when contrasted against Trump’s exceptional corruption).
Second - Obama is significantly more popular than Trump (or Biden). The actual worst thing that could happen to Trump is to try to run against Obama right now. So any media narrative that constantly references and compares Obama and Trump is a bad one.
I rather like DinoDin ’s answer here instead. Play up Obamagate now when the average voter isn’t watching and try to use it to gain traction with the political class. I don’t think it’s a great idea - since it’s not like he’s lacking for money of activists right now - but he doesn’t like being blamed for anything, so it’s a convenient distraction from his horrid handling of COVID.
It just needs to stick on Fox and OANN. It’s also convoluted enough that the term can shift to wherever they want it to shift until it does stick. It’s a vague term that allows the goalposts to shift on an hourly basis.
And yes they don’t want to campaign against Obama but that is exactly what Biden’s strategy is, so they are going to have to. Might as well attempt to go on the offensive first.
I've long noticed that a lot of scandals are discussed in incredibly vague terms. Details are hard to remember and people like to place their faith in simple things. A story that keeps changing and has few concrete details to it is a story that's hard to deconstruct.
A vague story with little connection to concrete events is also less credible, but people don't always demand credibility for the stories that paint their chosen enemies as the bad guys.
Guess the US intelligence was right, China government destroyed early samples of COVID-19. Now the questions will get tougher to dodge for them and the WHO.
Guess the US intelligence was right, China government destroyed early samples of COVID-19. Now the questions will get tougher to dodge for them and the WHO.
See above discussion about scandals - it's easy to make vague accusations something is wrong because it's impossible to disprove something so amorphous . The South China Morning Post article sets out what would appear to be a perfectly plausible explanation for destroying samples, i.e. that in the very early stages of identifying the disease samples were sent to labs without biosafety certification. Once the disease was classed as hazardous, it would be standard practice that those samples be either destroyed or sent to properly certified labs.
On the other hand Pompeo's accusations do not seem plausible to me:
- his main one for a while has been that the Chinese delayed providing information to the world about the disease. I posted a detailed timeline a while ago that didn't suggest there had been much delay and I would suggest this is just another of the Trump administration's standard tactics - anything you know you have done wrong, accuse someone else of to confuse the issue and try to shift blame.
- the other, more recent, accusation he's made is that China is withholding samples that could be used to produce a vaccine. Given that the US has about 1.5m recognized cases of their own, they shouldn't be short of samples to use for this purpose. And of course China has shared samples in the past and said it is happy to continue to do so via the WHO. If the US was participating in the international effort to find a vaccine they would no doubt be aware of that ...
First - it doesnt make any good sense for Trump to run against Obama in that Obama is far more popular than Trump is, and cutting that contrast only serves to alienate the fringe voters he desperately needs to win.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Mark Twain
Wanting to "re-open" is one thing. This outright refusal to even have cursory respect for the health of others by engaging in simple acts that are barely an inconvenience is another. For these people, wearing a mask or keeping your distance from others marks you as an "enemy". And that is not hyperbole.
Again, I suspect this attitude is what's leading to the massive amounts of infections. In Asian countries people wear masks, no pushback. People are used to it from air pollution. Here you wear a mask you get assaulted by people filled with misinformation who are determined to die for someone else's profits. It's incredibly stupid.
Wanting to "re-open" is one thing. This outright refusal to even have cursory respect for the health of others by engaging in simple acts that are barely an inconvenience is another. For these people, wearing a mask or keeping your distance from others marks you as an "enemy". And that is not hyperbole.
Again, I suspect this attitude is what's leading to the massive amounts of infections. In Asian countries people wear masks, no pushback. People are used to it from air pollution. Here you wear a mask you get assaulted by people filled with misinformation who are determined to die for someone else's profits. It's incredibly stupid.
Saw a Facebook post from a restaurant/bar on Twitter last night from some place in Wisconsin that read "No masks allowed, if you wear one we will assume you are engaged in a robbery and action will be taken accordingly". Meaning, if you come here with a mask on during a pandemic, we'll fucking shoot you. Does this include delivery drivers?? Health inspectors?? Furthermore, has any armed robber ever worn a surgical mask, or a cloth approximation of it?? Of course, this has nothing to do with ACTUALLY thinking a robbery would be taking place. Calling it childish would be an insult to children. Calling it stupid would be an insult to stupid people. If others weren't also at risk from them as vectors, I would not care an ounce what happens to these people.
And how long before the usual suspects start pretending Trump didn't spend 2 or 3 weeks pitching this stuff on a daily basis from the White House Briefing Room??:
Guess the US intelligence was right, China government destroyed early samples of COVID-19. Now the questions will get tougher to dodge for them and the WHO.
See above discussion about scandals - it's easy to make vague accusations something is wrong because it's impossible to disprove something so amorphous . The South China Morning Post article sets out what would appear to be a perfectly plausible explanation for destroying samples, i.e. that in the very early stages of identifying the disease samples were sent to labs without biosafety certification. Once the disease was classed as hazardous, it would be standard practice that those samples be either destroyed or sent to properly certified labs.
On the other hand Pompeo's accusations do not seem plausible to me:
- his main one for a while has been that the Chinese delayed providing information to the world about the disease. I posted a detailed timeline a while ago that didn't suggest there had been much delay and I would suggest this is just another of the Trump administration's standard tactics - anything you know you have done wrong, accuse someone else of to confuse the issue and try to shift blame.
- the other, more recent, accusation he's made is that China is withholding samples that could be used to produce a vaccine. Given that the US has about 1.5m recognized cases of their own, they shouldn't be short of samples to use for this purpose. And of course China has shared samples in the past and said it is happy to continue to do so via the WHO. If the US was participating in the international effort to find a vaccine they would no doubt be aware of that ...
Guess the US intelligence was right, China government destroyed early samples of COVID-19. Now the questions will get tougher to dodge for them and the WHO.
See above discussion about scandals - it's easy to make vague accusations something is wrong because it's impossible to disprove something so amorphous . The South China Morning Post article sets out what would appear to be a perfectly plausible explanation for destroying samples, i.e. that in the very early stages of identifying the disease samples were sent to labs without biosafety certification. Once the disease was classed as hazardous, it would be standard practice that those samples be either destroyed or sent to properly certified labs.
On the other hand Pompeo's accusations do not seem plausible to me:
- his main one for a while has been that the Chinese delayed providing information to the world about the disease. I posted a detailed timeline a while ago that didn't suggest there had been much delay and I would suggest this is just another of the Trump administration's standard tactics - anything you know you have done wrong, accuse someone else of to confuse the issue and try to shift blame.
- the other, more recent, accusation he's made is that China is withholding samples that could be used to produce a vaccine. Given that the US has about 1.5m recognized cases of their own, they shouldn't be short of samples to use for this purpose. And of course China has shared samples in the past and said it is happy to continue to do so via the WHO. If the US was participating in the international effort to find a vaccine they would no doubt be aware of that ...
Absolutely and a lot of mistakes are still being made - and no doubt there will be more in future. I don't think China has been perfect in their reaction by any stretch of the imagination - and I don't really like being put in the position of defending them. However, I do have a clear view that they behaved quicker and more effectively in their reaction to the virus than I would have expected - both in terms of their domestic action and international sharing of information.
The high numbers of cases in places like the UK and USA are nothing to do with China not sharing information. We were told what to do (and had the opportunity to see what was happening in other countries) - either a mass program of testing and tracking like that done in places like Singapore and South Korea or mass lockdown arrangements like that done in Wuhan. Our delays in instituting those programs are our delays and, unless you have the sort of agenda that Fox News (the source of the link you posted) does, I think it's totally unrealistic to claim that China's relatively small delay until Jan 21 to confirm community transmission was responsible for us not starting to take serious action until the middle of March ...
I think it's totally unrealistic to claim that China's relatively small delay until Jan 21 to confirm community transmission was responsible for us not starting to take serious action until the middle of March ...
I will agree that this pandemic was poorly handle but... No one knows the damage that was done when China destroyed/tried to cover up the virus in its early stages nor the WHOs misinformation. Everyone dropped the ball and yet again the serfs are the ones that get the shaft.
I think it's totally unrealistic to claim that China's relatively small delay until Jan 21 to confirm community transmission was responsible for us not starting to take serious action until the middle of March ...
I will agree that this pandemic was poorly handle but... No one knows the damage that was done when China destroyed/tried to cover up the virus in its early stages nor the WHOs misinformation. Everyone dropped the ball and yet again the serfs are the ones that get the shaft.
Exactly. No one knows.
There could have been zero damage done by China by doing this. Dwelling on a past mistake done by someone else while ignoring the mistakes that are currently being made is not beneficial.
It’s actually counterproductive. Once this whole thing has passed, that is the time to reflect see where the mistake were made and improve on them for next time something like this happens.
I think it's totally unrealistic to claim that China's relatively small delay until Jan 21 to confirm community transmission was responsible for us not starting to take serious action until the middle of March ...
I will agree that this pandemic was poorly handle but... No one knows the damage that was done when China destroyed/tried to cover up the virus in its early stages nor the WHOs misinformation. Everyone dropped the ball and yet again the serfs are the ones that get the shaft.
Exactly. No one knows.
There could have been zero damage done by China by doing this. Dwelling on a past mistake done by someone else while ignoring the mistakes that are currently being made is not beneficial.
It’s actually counterproductive. Once this whole thing has passed, that is the time to reflect see where the mistake were made and improve on them for next time something like this happens.
The damage to the World is evident, the extent of is what I'm talking about. It came out of China. The attempt to keep it under wraps in the first place is very disturbing. Criminal even.
It would be one thing if the disease just popped up from nowhere in the US, but it didn't. There was AT LEAST two months to watch what was happening not only in China, but in Europe. And despite how much we are being told to forget it happened, Donald Trump, in January, is on camera and in words online full of nothing but effusive praise for his pal Xi. Because, after all, at that point, all he had to worry about as far as he was concerned was Ivanka's trademark patents. The United States (and basically the UK) had the TREMENDOUS advantage of getting to go "last" in all of this, and learn from everyone else. And still managed to fuck it up the worst.
And even AFTER we at least knew if was here, there were those of us screaming at the top of our lungs to friends and relatives what was going to happen, and were dismissed out of hand right up til the moment we weren't anymore. And that is in no small part due to the fact that the figurehead of the national government was attempting, in public, repeatedly, to pretend it was absolutely nothing to worry about. THAT went on for at least 2 or 3 weeks as well. So no, I will play the blame game, but I'll do it with the people who were made aware in no uncertain terms that a train was barreling towards them, and decided to stand on the tracks for 60 days waiting for it to hit them. That was 90,000 deaths ago in the US:
How anyone could possibly vote for this man again after reading that article is beyond comprehension. And what's more, it's what anyone could have predicted would happen if something like this came down the pike. He probably wasn't psychologically capable of acting any other way. As I've said before, at that time (and still to this day), he views the virus as an attack on HIM. His power, his Presidency, his reelection chances. That's how he's always viewed it. His only attempts at anything have not been to mitigate death, but to engage in 24/7 spin about who else should be blamed. Harry Truman was a LONG time ago, folks. And I'm not even much of a fan of Truman (especially compared to his predecessor). But there is something to be said for accepting responsibility. Andrew Cuomo has made mistakes as well, but he has been given high marks because coming out and OWNING the good and the bad in a serious crisis is what leaders do, and what people expect.
When you mess up on the basketball court, it is seen as common etiquette to pipe up and say "that's on me, I messed up". In a pick-up game, you call your own fouls. It's a sign of accepting responsibility, and that you have a sense of integrity and fairness. If you blame everyone else for missing your defensive assignment every week, or hack and slash everyone who drives the lane on you and never call yourself for a foul, it's not gonna be very long before you aren't invited to participate anymore. Or if you are, everyone will despise you.
I think it's totally unrealistic to claim that China's relatively small delay until Jan 21 to confirm community transmission was responsible for us not starting to take serious action until the middle of March ...
I will agree that this pandemic was poorly handle but... No one knows the damage that was done when China destroyed/tried to cover up the virus in its early stages nor the WHOs misinformation. Everyone dropped the ball and yet again the serfs are the ones that get the shaft.
Exactly. No one knows.
There could have been zero damage done by China by doing this. Dwelling on a past mistake done by someone else while ignoring the mistakes that are currently being made is not beneficial.
It’s actually counterproductive. Once this whole thing has passed, that is the time to reflect see where the mistake were made and improve on them for next time something like this happens.
The damage to the World is evident, the extent of is what I'm talking about. It came out of China. The attempt to keep it under wraps in the first place is very disturbing. Criminal even.
I am going to use a car crash analogy.
China didn’t use it’s turn signal as it merged into the lane causing it to be rear ended by the virus. Italy, who was right behind smashed into them while the likes of South Korea and New Zealand slowed down and pulled over to the side avoiding most of the debris that began flying around after witnessing what had happened.
Other countries hit the breaks, but still ended up in the accident with minor damages. The US on the other hand, after seeing the accident decided not to slow down but actually accelerated towards the accident, blew right through it sustaining the most damage and is now in the process of leaving the scene because they didn’t cause the accident and they think their car can make it to the next gas station which is in November.
Sure, China’s inability or refusal to signal might have caused the accident to begin with, but just blaming them for all the damage that was done isn’t accurate. The actions of the other drivers (or countries) play just as much of a role, if not more, to the damage sustained in their countries than anything China did or didn’t do.
I think it's totally unrealistic to claim that China's relatively small delay until Jan 21 to confirm community transmission was responsible for us not starting to take serious action until the middle of March ...
I will agree that this pandemic was poorly handle but... No one knows the damage that was done when China destroyed/tried to cover up the virus in its early stages nor the WHOs misinformation. Everyone dropped the ball and yet again the serfs are the ones that get the shaft.
Exactly. No one knows.
There could have been zero damage done by China by doing this. Dwelling on a past mistake done by someone else while ignoring the mistakes that are currently being made is not beneficial.
It’s actually counterproductive. Once this whole thing has passed, that is the time to reflect see where the mistake were made and improve on them for next time something like this happens.
The damage to the World is evident, the extent of is what I'm talking about. It came out of China. The attempt to keep it under wraps in the first place is very disturbing. Criminal even.
I am going to use a car crash analogy.
China didn’t use it’s turn signal as it merged into the lane causing it to be rear ended by the virus. Italy, who was right behind smashed into them while the likes of South Korea and New Zealand slowed down and pulled over to the side avoiding most of the debris that began flying around after witnessing what had happened.
Other countries hit the breaks, but still ended up in the accident with minor damages. The US on the other hand, after seeing the accident decided not to slow down but actually accelerated towards the accident, blew right through it sustaining the most damage and is now in the process of leaving the scene because they didn’t cause the accident and they think their car can make it to the next gas station which is in November.
Sure, China’s inability or refusal to signal might have caused the accident to begin with, but just blaming them for all the damage that was done isn’t accurate. The actions of the other drivers (or countries) play just as much of a role, if not more, to the damage sustained in their countries than anything China did or didn’t do.
This is pretty good actually. We know for certain that something COULD have been done with the time to observe other's mistakes, because aforementioned countries like South Korea and New Zealand did so. Neither of those places are exactly Antarctica. South Korea has 50 million people, and is very densely populated. New Zealand is the size of a well-populated US state (4 million). Currently, just the state of Iowa (3 million) has about 10x more cases and deaths than New Zealand.
I think it's totally unrealistic to claim that China's relatively small delay until Jan 21 to confirm community transmission was responsible for us not starting to take serious action until the middle of March ...
I will agree that this pandemic was poorly handle but... No one knows the damage that was done when China destroyed/tried to cover up the virus in its early stages nor the WHOs misinformation. Everyone dropped the ball and yet again the serfs are the ones that get the shaft.
Exactly. No one knows.
There could have been zero damage done by China by doing this. Dwelling on a past mistake done by someone else while ignoring the mistakes that are currently being made is not beneficial.
It’s actually counterproductive. Once this whole thing has passed, that is the time to reflect see where the mistake were made and improve on them for next time something like this happens.
The damage to the World is evident, the extent of is what I'm talking about. It came out of China. The attempt to keep it under wraps in the first place is very disturbing. Criminal even.
I am going to use a car crash analogy.
China didn’t use it’s turn signal as it merged into the lane causing it to be rear ended by the virus. Italy, who was right behind smashed into them while the likes of South Korea and New Zealand slowed down and pulled over to the side avoiding most of the debris that began flying around after witnessing what had happened.
Other countries hit the breaks, but still ended up in the accident with minor damages. The US on the other hand, after seeing the accident decided not to slow down but actually accelerated towards the accident, blew right through it sustaining the most damage and is now in the process of leaving the scene because they didn’t cause the accident and they think their car can make it to the next gas station which is in November.
Sure, China’s inability or refusal to signal might have caused the accident to begin with, but just blaming them for all the damage that was done isn’t accurate. The actions of the other drivers (or countries) play just as much of a role, if not more, to the damage sustained in their countries than anything China did or didn’t do.
This is pretty good actually. We know for certain that something COULD have been done with the time to observe other's mistakes, because aforementioned countries like South Korea and New Zealand did so. Neither of those places are exactly Antarctica. South Korea has 50 million people, and is very densely populated. New Zealand is the size of a well-populated US state (4 million). Currently, just the state of Iowa (3 million) has about 10x more cases and deaths than New Zealand.
Actually a better analogy for total population and population density would be Oregon. 98k sq. mi. compared to NZ's 103k. Roughly 4.2M people compared to NZ's 5.0M. Yields a population density of 39.9/sq. mile compared to NZ's 47.7/sq. mile. Iowa has a density of 56.1/sq. mile.
And even then, Oregon still has more than twice the number of cases, 3600+ compared to just under 1500.
We can use as many analogies as we want to make us feel better, doesn't pull away from what a tyrannical dictatorship did and received early help from the WHO to do it. But of course orange man bad and we shouldn't point fingers because racism and Chinaphobia.
We can use as many analogies as we want to make us feel better, doesn't pull away from what a tyrannical dictatorship did and received early help from the WHO to do it. But of course orange man bad and we shouldn't point fingers because racism and Chinaphobia.
This isnt a coherent argument.
Trying to pass the blame off to China for the rest of the world's failure to react sufficiently to a threat like this is nothing short of scapegoating.
I dont particularly care how much or little China did. It's not terribly relevant, because the US (and Europe) had opportunity to adjust course and do a better job. They didnt. They bear the responsibility for their failures.
Trying to reduce the argument to "badmanorange" is just a boring way to try to de-legitimize arguments that Trump did a bad job. Since the majority of those people also think other countries did a poor job (Such as the UK) - it's also a facile argument.
If China was the key culprit, wouldn't we expect countries closest to China to be suffering the worst? But the fact is, we see much of the opposite. That indicates that countries outside of China had time to react and it was their reaction that determined the pandemic's spread, not China's behavior.
I'm not defending China here. They've clearly lied about their case load, death totals, and silenced a key whistleblower. It's also inarguable that they've done a lot more to contain the virus' spread. If China deserves blame for failing in the initial stages, don't the governments of the US and Western Europe now deserve blame for continuing to abet the virus' spread?
Comments
Just a thought.
I mean, people can say what they want about him, but Obama is about 15 points more popular than Trump on his best day. There is a reason Lindsey Graham doesn't want to put Obama on TV in a Senate hearing, and it isn't just because it's a ridiculous precedent. The smart Republicans have no interest in running against Obama (as a proxy) a third time. Neither 2008 or 2012 was remotely close in any metric by modern standards. In a sane country, the fact that Trump keeps saying Obama didn't leave him a stockpile of COVID-19 tests 3 1/2 years before the disease existed would be grounds for saying "this guy isn't up to the job", but, believe it or not, millions of people find this to be a legitimate and persuasive argument.
First - it doesnt make any good sense for Trump to run against Obama in that Obama is far more popular than Trump is, and cutting that contrast only serves to alienate the fringe voters he desperately needs to win.
Second - It's not working. He keeps trying to push Obamagate as a thing because it kinda worked with Clinton's emails. Luckily, the "both sides" media has started to catch on that they gave a vastly disproportionate amount of time to her emails than the issue warranted. They dont appear to be doing that with "Obamagate".
Nevermind that when asked to explain what it is, his answer was "you know what it is". Because even he hasn't bothered to take the time to figure out what the story supposedly is. Again, it's just these words that go in the lexicon in right-wing media. Fast and Furious, Solyndra, Benghazi, Burisma, Emails, Unmasked, Obamagate. Give me 100 Trump voters and I'll bet $1000 99 of them can't accurately explain any two of these "scandals".
No, this is actually standard campaign strategy for this stage in an election cycle, imo. People like JJ are correct that reminding the public of Obama is probably unwise in the general. But this is red meat to get activists and donors pumped up to participate in the campaign.
If someone wants to say this is a product of Trump's pathologies or stupidity, I won't disagree. But the problem is, the whole party is embracing this, it looks it. Either tacitly, or some folks, actively.
I suspect we see little emphasis of this invented scandal by the campaign in the fall. It's there to be placed in conservative media now where it can metastasize and help carry the activist and donor base through these otherwise disheartening times.
The story will no longer be about an issue but something like “Obama willing to have open investigation regarding Obamagate concerns.”
There are two problems with this:
First - it need to stick. Clinton’s email scandal was given life because it was relatively easy to understand (Where did they go?) and it reinforced her image as corrupt. Obamagate shows no signs of sticking because it’s convoluted and Obama’s legacy is one of not being corrupt (especially when contrasted against Trump’s exceptional corruption).
Second - Obama is significantly more popular than Trump (or Biden). The actual worst thing that could happen to Trump is to try to run against Obama right now. So any media narrative that constantly references and compares Obama and Trump is a bad one.
I rather like @DinoDin ’s answer here instead. Play up Obamagate now when the average voter isn’t watching and try to use it to gain traction with the political class. I don’t think it’s a great idea - since it’s not like he’s lacking for money of activists right now - but he doesn’t like being blamed for anything, so it’s a convenient distraction from his horrid handling of COVID.
Apparently my aunt is getting alot of "people die everyday" from some of her brothers and sisters. It took me about a millisecond to come up with a rebuttal which was "yeah, people do die everyday, but almost nothing they die from is CONTAGIOUS." Car accidents are not contagious. Cancer is not contagious. Heart disease is not contagious. Slipping and falling and hitting your head causing a fatal skull injury is not contagious. I'm struggling to think of much of ANYTHING people "normally" die from that is.
Wanting to "re-open" is one thing. This outright refusal to even have cursory respect for the health of others by engaging in simple acts that are barely an inconvenience is another. For these people, wearing a mask or keeping your distance from others marks you as an "enemy". And that is not hyperbole.
It just needs to stick on Fox and OANN. It’s also convoluted enough that the term can shift to wherever they want it to shift until it does stick. It’s a vague term that allows the goalposts to shift on an hourly basis.
And yes they don’t want to campaign against Obama but that is exactly what Biden’s strategy is, so they are going to have to. Might as well attempt to go on the offensive first.
A vague story with little connection to concrete events is also less credible, but people don't always demand credibility for the stories that paint their chosen enemies as the bad guys.
Guess the US intelligence was right, China government destroyed early samples of COVID-19. Now the questions will get tougher to dodge for them and the WHO.
https://nypost.com/2020/05/15/china-admits-to-destroying-coronavirus-samples-for-safety/
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3084635/china-confirms-unauthorised-labs-were-told-destroy-early
See above discussion about scandals - it's easy to make vague accusations something is wrong because it's impossible to disprove something so amorphous
On the other hand Pompeo's accusations do not seem plausible to me:
- his main one for a while has been that the Chinese delayed providing information to the world about the disease. I posted a detailed timeline a while ago that didn't suggest there had been much delay and I would suggest this is just another of the Trump administration's standard tactics - anything you know you have done wrong, accuse someone else of to confuse the issue and try to shift blame.
- the other, more recent, accusation he's made is that China is withholding samples that could be used to produce a vaccine. Given that the US has about 1.5m recognized cases of their own, they shouldn't be short of samples to use for this purpose. And of course China has shared samples in the past and said it is happy to continue to do so via the WHO. If the US was participating in the international effort to find a vaccine they would no doubt be aware of that ...
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Mark Twain
Trump's trying to drag Obama down to his level.
Again, I suspect this attitude is what's leading to the massive amounts of infections. In Asian countries people wear masks, no pushback. People are used to it from air pollution. Here you wear a mask you get assaulted by people filled with misinformation who are determined to die for someone else's profits. It's incredibly stupid.
Saw a Facebook post from a restaurant/bar on Twitter last night from some place in Wisconsin that read "No masks allowed, if you wear one we will assume you are engaged in a robbery and action will be taken accordingly". Meaning, if you come here with a mask on during a pandemic, we'll fucking shoot you. Does this include delivery drivers?? Health inspectors?? Furthermore, has any armed robber ever worn a surgical mask, or a cloth approximation of it?? Of course, this has nothing to do with ACTUALLY thinking a robbery would be taking place. Calling it childish would be an insult to children. Calling it stupid would be an insult to stupid people. If others weren't also at risk from them as vectors, I would not care an ounce what happens to these people.
And how long before the usual suspects start pretending Trump didn't spend 2 or 3 weeks pitching this stuff on a daily basis from the White House Briefing Room??:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/drug-promoted-by-trump-as-coronavirus-game-changer-increasingly-linked-to-deaths/2020/05/15/85d024fe-96bd-11ea-9f5e-56d8239bf9ad_story.html
https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/who-haunted-by-old-tweet-saying-china-found-no-human-transmission-of-coronavirus/
A lot of mistakes were made.
Absolutely and a lot of mistakes are still being made - and no doubt there will be more in future. I don't think China has been perfect in their reaction by any stretch of the imagination - and I don't really like being put in the position of defending them. However, I do have a clear view that they behaved quicker and more effectively in their reaction to the virus than I would have expected - both in terms of their domestic action and international sharing of information.
The high numbers of cases in places like the UK and USA are nothing to do with China not sharing information. We were told what to do (and had the opportunity to see what was happening in other countries) - either a mass program of testing and tracking like that done in places like Singapore and South Korea or mass lockdown arrangements like that done in Wuhan. Our delays in instituting those programs are our delays and, unless you have the sort of agenda that Fox News (the source of the link you posted) does, I think it's totally unrealistic to claim that China's relatively small delay until Jan 21 to confirm community transmission was responsible for us not starting to take serious action until the middle of March ...
I will agree that this pandemic was poorly handle but... No one knows the damage that was done when China destroyed/tried to cover up the virus in its early stages nor the WHOs misinformation. Everyone dropped the ball and yet again the serfs are the ones that get the shaft.
Exactly. No one knows.
There could have been zero damage done by China by doing this. Dwelling on a past mistake done by someone else while ignoring the mistakes that are currently being made is not beneficial.
It’s actually counterproductive. Once this whole thing has passed, that is the time to reflect see where the mistake were made and improve on them for next time something like this happens.
The damage to the World is evident, the extent of is what I'm talking about. It came out of China. The attempt to keep it under wraps in the first place is very disturbing. Criminal even.
And even AFTER we at least knew if was here, there were those of us screaming at the top of our lungs to friends and relatives what was going to happen, and were dismissed out of hand right up til the moment we weren't anymore. And that is in no small part due to the fact that the figurehead of the national government was attempting, in public, repeatedly, to pretend it was absolutely nothing to worry about. THAT went on for at least 2 or 3 weeks as well. So no, I will play the blame game, but I'll do it with the people who were made aware in no uncertain terms that a train was barreling towards them, and decided to stand on the tracks for 60 days waiting for it to hit them. That was 90,000 deaths ago in the US:
How anyone could possibly vote for this man again after reading that article is beyond comprehension. And what's more, it's what anyone could have predicted would happen if something like this came down the pike. He probably wasn't psychologically capable of acting any other way. As I've said before, at that time (and still to this day), he views the virus as an attack on HIM. His power, his Presidency, his reelection chances. That's how he's always viewed it. His only attempts at anything have not been to mitigate death, but to engage in 24/7 spin about who else should be blamed. Harry Truman was a LONG time ago, folks. And I'm not even much of a fan of Truman (especially compared to his predecessor). But there is something to be said for accepting responsibility. Andrew Cuomo has made mistakes as well, but he has been given high marks because coming out and OWNING the good and the bad in a serious crisis is what leaders do, and what people expect.
When you mess up on the basketball court, it is seen as common etiquette to pipe up and say "that's on me, I messed up". In a pick-up game, you call your own fouls. It's a sign of accepting responsibility, and that you have a sense of integrity and fairness. If you blame everyone else for missing your defensive assignment every week, or hack and slash everyone who drives the lane on you and never call yourself for a foul, it's not gonna be very long before you aren't invited to participate anymore. Or if you are, everyone will despise you.
I am going to use a car crash analogy.
China didn’t use it’s turn signal as it merged into the lane causing it to be rear ended by the virus. Italy, who was right behind smashed into them while the likes of South Korea and New Zealand slowed down and pulled over to the side avoiding most of the debris that began flying around after witnessing what had happened.
Other countries hit the breaks, but still ended up in the accident with minor damages. The US on the other hand, after seeing the accident decided not to slow down but actually accelerated towards the accident, blew right through it sustaining the most damage and is now in the process of leaving the scene because they didn’t cause the accident and they think their car can make it to the next gas station which is in November.
Sure, China’s inability or refusal to signal might have caused the accident to begin with, but just blaming them for all the damage that was done isn’t accurate. The actions of the other drivers (or countries) play just as much of a role, if not more, to the damage sustained in their countries than anything China did or didn’t do.
This is pretty good actually. We know for certain that something COULD have been done with the time to observe other's mistakes, because aforementioned countries like South Korea and New Zealand did so. Neither of those places are exactly Antarctica. South Korea has 50 million people, and is very densely populated. New Zealand is the size of a well-populated US state (4 million). Currently, just the state of Iowa (3 million) has about 10x more cases and deaths than New Zealand.
Actually a better analogy for total population and population density would be Oregon. 98k sq. mi. compared to NZ's 103k. Roughly 4.2M people compared to NZ's 5.0M. Yields a population density of 39.9/sq. mile compared to NZ's 47.7/sq. mile. Iowa has a density of 56.1/sq. mile.
And even then, Oregon still has more than twice the number of cases, 3600+ compared to just under 1500.
This isnt a coherent argument.
Trying to pass the blame off to China for the rest of the world's failure to react sufficiently to a threat like this is nothing short of scapegoating.
I dont particularly care how much or little China did. It's not terribly relevant, because the US (and Europe) had opportunity to adjust course and do a better job. They didnt. They bear the responsibility for their failures.
Trying to reduce the argument to "badmanorange" is just a boring way to try to de-legitimize arguments that Trump did a bad job. Since the majority of those people also think other countries did a poor job (Such as the UK) - it's also a facile argument.
I'm not defending China here. They've clearly lied about their case load, death totals, and silenced a key whistleblower. It's also inarguable that they've done a lot more to contain the virus' spread. If China deserves blame for failing in the initial stages, don't the governments of the US and Western Europe now deserve blame for continuing to abet the virus' spread?
Nice.