Would be interested if the UK members here can attest to channel 4's quality. I'm totally ignorant in that regard.
The basic takeaway is that the 2016 trump campaign tried to get black americans to not vote. Mainly using Facebook ads to go negative on Clinton and thus argue that there was little difference between the candidates. Interesting that a UK outlet got this leak. Likely a Cambridge Analytica employee involved.
They are suppressing votes...with targeted advertisements!
Give me a break. An anti-Clinton ad is not voter suppression. It's an ad. Why does everything have to be sensationalized beyond all reason? I can answer my own question, because they have to make the facts conform to the narrative and not the other way around.
I actually agree with this, mostly. I dont think there's anything completely wrong with this approach, although I will say that I find it extremely gross that rather than trying to win those voters over, they only sought to convince them not to vote.
It's not a particularly healthy sign of a political party of or a democratic system when you rely on convincing people not to vote rather than convincing them to vote for you. Compare the above strategy against Biden, who is clearly making an all-out effort to reach for disaffected conservatives by having Kasich speak at the DNC, Cindy McCain's endorsement, etc, etc.
Yeah, manipulation is only scandalous if the other side is doing it. The Biden ad in Michigan that basically says Trump is going to get rid of Social Security and the Trump ad here saying the country will be full of looting and chaos if Biden wins are perfect examples of both sides being full of shit during an election year.
Edit: I actually joke with my daughter all the time when we watch these ads (along with the ads for Senators and Representatives too). I basically say that both sides are trying to kill us so why should I vote for any of them...
Yeah, manipulation is only scandalous if the other side is doing it. The Biden ad in Michigan that basically says Trump is going to get rid of Social Security and the Trump ad here saying the country will be full of looting and chaos if Biden wins are perfect examples of both sides being full of shit during an election year.
Edit: I actually joke with my daughter all the time when we watch these ads (along with the ads for Senators and Representatives too). I basically say that both sides are trying to kill us so why should I vote for any of them...
Trump has proposed permanently doing away with the payroll tax, which funds Social Security. The fact that no one has seen a dime of this so-called "tax holiday" two months after he announced it is beside the point. That's simply because he is too lazy to do anything other than issue an Executive Order that most businesses decided not to pay any attention to. It doesn't change the fact that he has said it numerous times. It's not Biden's fault Trump has no idea how entitlements are funded.
He's the one on the record saying he will eliminate the program's source of funding if elected. On the flip-side of the argument, Biden has actually called for (regrettably) MORE police funding. So even if we come at both of these issues in a roundabout way, the Republicans are still way more full of shit in the match-up of these two issues. Biden does NOT support cutting police funding, which the argument is would create more looting and burning. And Trump DOES support (and indeed has attempted to issue by decree) a payroll tax holiday that WOULD (not just hypothetically) cut off funding for Social Security.
While we're on the subject, Trump stood up at that weekend press conference and said he was going to send out stimulus checks, freeze the payroll tax til the end of the year, and stop all nationwide evictions. Exactly ZERO percent of this actually took place (as predicted by this forumite at the time), and, as far as I can tell, there has also been ZERO media scrutiny of the fact that none of it came to fruition, even though there was endless media coverage that weekend of his announcement. And people wonder why he can still maintain 40% approval.
Yeah, manipulation is only scandalous if the other side is doing it. The Biden ad in Michigan that basically says Trump is going to get rid of Social Security and the Trump ad here saying the country will be full of looting and chaos if Biden wins are perfect examples of both sides being full of shit during an election year.
Edit: I actually joke with my daughter all the time when we watch these ads (along with the ads for Senators and Representatives too). I basically say that both sides are trying to kill us so why should I vote for any of them...
While we're on the subject, Trump stood up at that weekend press conference and said he was going to send out stimulus checks, freeze the payroll tax til the end of the year, and stop all nationwide evictions. Exactly ZERO percent of this actually took place (as predicted by this forumite at the time), and, as far as I can tell, there has also been ZERO media scrutiny of the fact that none of it came to fruition, even though there was endless media coverage that weekend of his announcement. And people wonder why he can still maintain 40% approval.
Well I for one didn't believe any of that chest-pounding bluster because it's not within the powers of the President anyway. Until Trump crowns himself Emperor anyway...
Would be interested if the UK members here can attest to channel 4's quality. I'm totally ignorant in that regard.
The basic takeaway is that the 2016 trump campaign tried to get black americans to not vote. Mainly using Facebook ads to go negative on Clinton and thus argue that there was little difference between the candidates. Interesting that a UK outlet got this leak. Likely a Cambridge Analytica employee involved.
They are suppressing votes...with targeted advertisements!
Give me a break. An anti-Clinton ad is not voter suppression. It's an ad. Why does everything have to be sensationalized beyond all reason? I can answer my own question, because they have to make the facts conform to the narrative and not the other way around.
Given the greater context of attempts to curb Democratic constituencies from voting, I cannot agree with this. In of itself, what Channel 4 found wasn't illegal. But it adds to a growing pile of evidence that conservatives are interested in suppressing the vote as much as possible. I'm sorry but an equivalent effort does not exist within the other party.
When you combine this news with gerrymandering, the poll tax on felons in Florida, the purging of Democratic leaning voter registrations in states like Georgia, and much much more, what you have is a troubling picture that has emerged. One of a party that recognizes it can seize the elected branches of power while not needing to win over the majority opinion of the population. That is a profound problem for a democracy. And anyone who cares about democratic rule ought to be concerned about it. Those that handwave it away as no big deal, are only revealing how little they care about democracy, liberty and rule of law.
Yeah, manipulation is only scandalous if the other side is doing it. The Biden ad in Michigan that basically says Trump is going to get rid of Social Security and the Trump ad here saying the country will be full of looting and chaos if Biden wins are perfect examples of both sides being full of shit during an election year.
Edit: I actually joke with my daughter all the time when we watch these ads (along with the ads for Senators and Representatives too). I basically say that both sides are trying to kill us so why should I vote for any of them...
The payroll tax is THE funding for social security. Every penny the Social Security Fund has came from either that, or is interest on notes that that tax bought as excess funding (since by law any excess has to be invested in interest bearing securities).
Doing away with the tax will result in essentially eliminating Social Security. The fund would be drawn down with no new income within a couple years.
To me, this would be the ultimate "Haha, I got mine, fuck you!" from Baby Boomers. I have already heard from them for decades about how "Social Security is there for me, but it won't be for you" doomsday predictions from them that it'll be gone by 2035-2040.
As long as that payroll tax is there, there IS social security, even if they cannot pay out the full mandated benefits.
And god forbid we raise the cap on Social Security Tax to fully fund it past 2035 or whatever.
It is one thing when the source of, and funding for, political advertisements is clear. These things are often unclear when it comes to online advertising however, and an increasing problem in some countries is that actors other than political parties can fund online advertisements in a way which circumvents existing limitations on spending / timing. This can result in particular issues gaining greater prominence, or in a shift in the ‘Overton Window’ of the things which it is possible to say, particularly when combined with other strategies such as astroturfing by semi-autonomous bots.
Trump's strategy to just insult and interrupt every 5 seconds is not going to play well. This is a fucking embarrassment to our entire country. Biden telling Trump to shut up, was, frankly, entirely appropriate.
Oh my god, what a joke. Is this actually a debate? Seems more like Thaddeus Stevens in the movie Lincoln, if he was talking to a child with the brain of an amoeba.
This debate is already hard to watch. "You wouldn't have made ventilators, Joe Biden!". Kudos to the reporter for asking him straight up whether or not he would pack the court. His refusal to answer is a clear yes imo.
I hate when people interrupt in debates and Trump seems to be doing that a lot.
Oh my god, what a joke. Is this actually a debate? Seems more like Thaddeus Stevens in the movie Lincoln, if he was talking to a child with the brain of an amoeba.
Trump's "woe is me" bullshit while Biden is talking directly to families who have lost people to COVID-19 is all you need to know about these two candidates. He's the biggest fucking baby I have ever seen in my life.
This debate is already hard to watch. "You wouldn't have made ventilators, Joe Biden!". Kudos to the reporter for asking him straight up whether or not he would pack the court. His refusal to answer is a clear yes imo.
I hate when people interrupt in debates and Trump seems to be doing that a lot.
Framing the Supreme Court question without even MENTIONING Merrick Garland or McConnell was absolutely absurd. Biden hits Trump on COVID-19, Trump responds with ripping on Biden's college transcripts. Surely the issue being discussed at every kitchen table and what fence-sitting voters want to hear. People are going to shut this off after 30 minutes. Trump is making it unwatchable.
So far, what people are seeing is a bloviating asshole, and Biden being an avatar for the vast majority of people watching this with total exasperation and exhaustion. I honestly cannot imagine anyone not already voting for Trump responding positively to this:
In of itself, what Channel 4 found wasn't illegal.
It's an ad. It's literally harmless. Ads are not voter suppression nor do they create the appearance of it. There is no need to even discuss it in terms of legality or illegality.
And the idea that both parties don't use political ads to convince the other party the candidate doesn't represent their values is so obviously nonsense.
But it adds to a growing pile of evidence that conservatives are interested in suppressing the vote as much as possible. I'm sorry but an equivalent effort does not exist within the other party.
Ads can only "add to a growing pile of evidence of voter suppression" if they are, in themselves, evidence of voter suppression. They are not.
But let's play along. If negative ads are evidence of voter suppression, and both parties use negative ads, how are they not equivalent? Both seek to suppress the vote. This "both parties are not equivalent" has become a meme at this point. Either you claim democrats don't use negative ads, obviously false, or that negative ads aren't evidence of voter suppression.
When you combine this news with gerrymandering, the poll tax on felons in Florida, the purging of Democratic leaning voter registrations in states like Georgia, and much much more, what you have is a troubling picture that has emerged.
One party wants to change 200 years of established democratic precedent and pack the court, changing it forever, change centuries of precedent even further and eliminate the electoral college, wants to add entire states that do not even border us just because it would help them with votes and for virtually no other reason. They want to change the entire democracy as it exists, permanently, with massive structural changes. And you wanna talk about a poll tax like it is the worst and most game changing thing going on in politics right now. Laughable, in every sense of the word. You are right, the parties aren't even remotely comparable. The democrats are orders of magnitude worse, but their voters have so much confirmation bias in line with their own narratives they will never see it any other way.
Those that handwave it away as no big deal, are only revealing how little they care about democracy, liberty and rule of law.
And this is the sad state of affairs that believing your own propaganda a little too strongly leads you. Anyone who is not concerned with the use of political ads does not care about democracy, liberty, and rule of law. No serious person can believe this, but nor can it be interpreted any other way. Sure, you cite the "greater context", but no amount of "greater context" makes this appear sane to sane people.
The fact that people are so ignorant as to fall for these political ads is evidence of stupidity, not voter suppression. Stupidity is why true democracy doesn't work and why the US is not a 'true' democracy and never has been.
@WarChiefZeke "One party wants to change 200 years of established democratic precedent and pack the court"
Have ya looked at the courts? The packing is happening in real time, and it ain't the Democratic party.
"They want to change the entire democracy as it exists, permanently, with massive structural changes."
Yeah, they want a person's vote to actually matter. Those monsters...
"Laughable, in every sense of the word. You are right, the parties aren't even remotely comparable. The democrats are orders of magnitude worse"
Voter supression, concentration camps, kidnapped children, starved children, sexually abused children, and eugenics. All done by the Republican Party. You wanna run by me what the Democrats have done that's worse?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict this performance didn't stop his bleeding support with suburban women in any way. Because nothing appeals to middle-aged women with a career more than guy filibustering the entire conversation for 90 minutes. When Trump goes into his talk radio diatribes literally NO ONE knows what he is talking about unless they are in the FOX bubble. He might as well be speaking Latin.
They shouldn't have the other two debates. This is absolutely pointless.
Agreed. I won't be watching either of the other two debates unless they utilize Cones of Silence to enforce the rules.
Fyi: For what it's worth, Biden held his own. It's too bad he has to battle his stutter or he would have owned Trump in this debate.
That's because Trump only talks about himself. Biden took every opportunity to address the camera and the viewers directly, even if Trump was talking in the background. And that "shut up" moment is going to play just fine. But this was madness. My guess is anyone who isn't unhealthily obsessed with politics shut it off an hour ago.
The US Postal Service gets a billion Christmas cards to people every year but somehow they are being held accountable for less than 330 million votes? Somehow they are going to screw over the election?
That was an absolute disaster. Trump just decided to bulldoze the entire thing with nonsense, spent half the time arguing with the FOX News moderator, and you couldn't even hear what was being said 40% of the time. Just an absolutely shameful spectacle to present to the rest of the world. Not a single non-insane person was persuaded to change their vote because of whatever that was. On the margins, you may find people who now want to vote for Biden just so they don't have to hear Trump talk anymore. No, I'm not kidding. That was viscerally unpleasant to sit through. I feel like I need a shower. I'm eagerly awaiting the focus group dialers. GREAT analogy here:
The most powerful man in the world just did all that for 90 minutes. That's our elected leader. That's the person who is supposed to keep us safe.
What a disaster. There shouldnt be any more debates.
I genuinely believe this debate was harmful to the USA. Trump's mask answers, the white supremacy non-condemning, and attacking mail in voting was unbelievable.
Edit - spitting the absolute disgust as a citizen out of my mouth.
Trump needed to win this debate because he is so far behind in the polls. He didnt. I bet there are half a dozen R senators that are sweating how bad tonight went.
Comments
I actually agree with this, mostly. I dont think there's anything completely wrong with this approach, although I will say that I find it extremely gross that rather than trying to win those voters over, they only sought to convince them not to vote.
It's not a particularly healthy sign of a political party of or a democratic system when you rely on convincing people not to vote rather than convincing them to vote for you. Compare the above strategy against Biden, who is clearly making an all-out effort to reach for disaffected conservatives by having Kasich speak at the DNC, Cindy McCain's endorsement, etc, etc.
It's gross, but I wouldnt call it scandalous.
Edit: I actually joke with my daughter all the time when we watch these ads (along with the ads for Senators and Representatives too). I basically say that both sides are trying to kill us so why should I vote for any of them...
Trump has proposed permanently doing away with the payroll tax, which funds Social Security. The fact that no one has seen a dime of this so-called "tax holiday" two months after he announced it is beside the point. That's simply because he is too lazy to do anything other than issue an Executive Order that most businesses decided not to pay any attention to. It doesn't change the fact that he has said it numerous times. It's not Biden's fault Trump has no idea how entitlements are funded.
He's the one on the record saying he will eliminate the program's source of funding if elected. On the flip-side of the argument, Biden has actually called for (regrettably) MORE police funding. So even if we come at both of these issues in a roundabout way, the Republicans are still way more full of shit in the match-up of these two issues. Biden does NOT support cutting police funding, which the argument is would create more looting and burning. And Trump DOES support (and indeed has attempted to issue by decree) a payroll tax holiday that WOULD (not just hypothetically) cut off funding for Social Security.
While we're on the subject, Trump stood up at that weekend press conference and said he was going to send out stimulus checks, freeze the payroll tax til the end of the year, and stop all nationwide evictions. Exactly ZERO percent of this actually took place (as predicted by this forumite at the time), and, as far as I can tell, there has also been ZERO media scrutiny of the fact that none of it came to fruition, even though there was endless media coverage that weekend of his announcement. And people wonder why he can still maintain 40% approval.
Well I for one didn't believe any of that chest-pounding bluster because it's not within the powers of the President anyway. Until Trump crowns himself Emperor anyway...
Seeing you say this makes me laugh every single time.
Given the greater context of attempts to curb Democratic constituencies from voting, I cannot agree with this. In of itself, what Channel 4 found wasn't illegal. But it adds to a growing pile of evidence that conservatives are interested in suppressing the vote as much as possible. I'm sorry but an equivalent effort does not exist within the other party.
When you combine this news with gerrymandering, the poll tax on felons in Florida, the purging of Democratic leaning voter registrations in states like Georgia, and much much more, what you have is a troubling picture that has emerged. One of a party that recognizes it can seize the elected branches of power while not needing to win over the majority opinion of the population. That is a profound problem for a democracy. And anyone who cares about democratic rule ought to be concerned about it. Those that handwave it away as no big deal, are only revealing how little they care about democracy, liberty and rule of law.
The payroll tax is THE funding for social security. Every penny the Social Security Fund has came from either that, or is interest on notes that that tax bought as excess funding (since by law any excess has to be invested in interest bearing securities).
Doing away with the tax will result in essentially eliminating Social Security. The fund would be drawn down with no new income within a couple years.
To me, this would be the ultimate "Haha, I got mine, fuck you!" from Baby Boomers. I have already heard from them for decades about how "Social Security is there for me, but it won't be for you" doomsday predictions from them that it'll be gone by 2035-2040.
As long as that payroll tax is there, there IS social security, even if they cannot pay out the full mandated benefits.
And god forbid we raise the cap on Social Security Tax to fully fund it past 2035 or whatever.
I hate when people interrupt in debates and Trump seems to be doing that a lot.
Trump's "woe is me" bullshit while Biden is talking directly to families who have lost people to COVID-19 is all you need to know about these two candidates. He's the biggest fucking baby I have ever seen in my life.
Framing the Supreme Court question without even MENTIONING Merrick Garland or McConnell was absolutely absurd. Biden hits Trump on COVID-19, Trump responds with ripping on Biden's college transcripts. Surely the issue being discussed at every kitchen table and what fence-sitting voters want to hear. People are going to shut this off after 30 minutes. Trump is making it unwatchable.
It's been his position from the beginning. He is now using the EXACT same line about releasing his taxes he did 4 years ago. "Soon, I promise".
It's an ad. It's literally harmless. Ads are not voter suppression nor do they create the appearance of it. There is no need to even discuss it in terms of legality or illegality.
And the idea that both parties don't use political ads to convince the other party the candidate doesn't represent their values is so obviously nonsense.
Ads can only "add to a growing pile of evidence of voter suppression" if they are, in themselves, evidence of voter suppression. They are not.
But let's play along. If negative ads are evidence of voter suppression, and both parties use negative ads, how are they not equivalent? Both seek to suppress the vote. This "both parties are not equivalent" has become a meme at this point. Either you claim democrats don't use negative ads, obviously false, or that negative ads aren't evidence of voter suppression.
One party wants to change 200 years of established democratic precedent and pack the court, changing it forever, change centuries of precedent even further and eliminate the electoral college, wants to add entire states that do not even border us just because it would help them with votes and for virtually no other reason. They want to change the entire democracy as it exists, permanently, with massive structural changes. And you wanna talk about a poll tax like it is the worst and most game changing thing going on in politics right now. Laughable, in every sense of the word. You are right, the parties aren't even remotely comparable. The democrats are orders of magnitude worse, but their voters have so much confirmation bias in line with their own narratives they will never see it any other way.
And this is the sad state of affairs that believing your own propaganda a little too strongly leads you. Anyone who is not concerned with the use of political ads does not care about democracy, liberty, and rule of law. No serious person can believe this, but nor can it be interpreted any other way. Sure, you cite the "greater context", but no amount of "greater context" makes this appear sane to sane people.
Yeah, that is wrong. I know it but wow! I am not sorry for that statement but I do apologize. I have never seen anything so pathetic in my life.
Have ya looked at the courts? The packing is happening in real time, and it ain't the Democratic party.
"They want to change the entire democracy as it exists, permanently, with massive structural changes."
Yeah, they want a person's vote to actually matter. Those monsters...
"Laughable, in every sense of the word. You are right, the parties aren't even remotely comparable. The democrats are orders of magnitude worse"
Voter supression, concentration camps, kidnapped children, starved children, sexually abused children, and eugenics. All done by the Republican Party. You wanna run by me what the Democrats have done that's worse?
Agreed. I won't be watching either of the other two debates unless they utilize Cones of Silence to enforce the rules.
Fyi: For what it's worth, Biden held his own. It's too bad he has to battle his stutter or he would have owned Trump in this debate.
That's because Trump only talks about himself. Biden took every opportunity to address the camera and the viewers directly, even if Trump was talking in the background. And that "shut up" moment is going to play just fine. But this was madness. My guess is anyone who isn't unhealthily obsessed with politics shut it off an hour ago.
I don’t understand.
What a disaster. There shouldnt be any more debates.
I genuinely believe this debate was harmful to the USA. Trump's mask answers, the white supremacy non-condemning, and attacking mail in voting was unbelievable.
Edit - spitting the absolute disgust as a citizen out of my mouth.
Trump needed to win this debate because he is so far behind in the polls. He didnt. I bet there are half a dozen R senators that are sweating how bad tonight went.