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  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    edited September 2020
    I remember caring enough to complain about the Antifa/Proud Boy street violence years ago. Wild that is ended up being a part of the Presidential debates. From some liberal professor braining a college kid with a bike lock, to trying to use acidic gas on republicans gathered in a building, to a countless number of street brawls, to the attempted mass shooting of Republicans at the baseball game that ended with Scalise being shot, this political violence has been ongoing for the past 4 years. Nobody ever cares if it is "their radicals" spilling blood. It's all so cynical, just bad faith bullshit all around.

    Not relevant, but important. The false political narratives come and go, as soon as they are debunked they are forgotten as quickly as they were constructed. There is little memory or accountability in politics.



  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    See though, he was asked too condemn an actual group of white supremacist after asking for a name and being provided with one.

    I also don’t see how it is in bad faith to condemn a hate group? What am I missing?

    Like the Proud Boys exist. Patriot Prayer exists. They literally have founders who have been interviewed on television. Do we even know who founded Antifa?
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    deltago wrote: »

    See though, he was asked too condemn an actual group of white supremacist after asking for a name and being provided with one.

    I also don’t see how it is in bad faith to condemn a hate group? What am I missing?

    Like the Proud Boys exist. Patriot Prayer exists. They literally have founders who have been interviewed on television. Do we even know who founded Antifa?

    Because The Proud Boys are not white supremacists. That's a lie. The term "White supremacist" has a meaning, and that meaning is not "someone of right leaning persuasion that I find distateful". Lies are bad faith, wouldn't you agree?
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    edited September 2020
    As if to prove my point, Joe Biden shared a video on Twitter that has Kyle Rittenhouse in it, playing the part of the white supremacist Trump refused to condemn. The term has lost all meaning, because they have to turn as many people as possible into white supremacists in order to justify their narrative. It becomes easier to believe in the non existent threat of "white supremacists" when you can be talking about virtually anybody, in any context, of any belief system.

    Now that I think about it, it's really morally disgusting for a Presidential candidate to be falsely accusing a minor of extremist beliefs.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    As if to prove my point, Joe Biden shared a video on Twitter that has Kyle Rittenhouse in it, playing the part of the white supremacist Trump refused to condemn. The term has lost all meaning, because they have to turn as many people as possible into white supremacists in order to justify their narrative. It becomes easier to believe in the non existent threat of "white supremacists" when you can be talking about virtually anybody, in any context, of any belief system.

    Now that I think about it, it's really morally disgusting for a Presidential candidate to be falsely accusing a minor of extremist beliefs.

    Well let’s both sides that and say that the right has turned peaceful protesters into Antifa. Which is also a lie and false narrative.

    Also what was Wallace’s exact question to Trump? At work now so can’t look it up.


  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    edited September 2020
    I agree with that. I think the term "antifa" is thrown around far too often, when it represents a specific group of people. I also think a terrorist designation, if that ever happened or was just hot air, is largely b.s meant to justify harsher sentances.

    I don't think Chris Wallace did a bad job at all. He was a pretty fair dude. They really need to mute interruptions next time.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    I think I've been completely unfair to say that the Trump Administration has no pandemic plan. This new story reveals that I was completely wrong. It turns out they do have a plan, which is clearly "kill as many people as possible":

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/health/covid-cruise-ships.html?referringSource=articleShare
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 3,881
    Because The Proud Boys are not white supremacists. That's a lie. The term "White supremacist" has a meaning, and that meaning is not "someone of right leaning persuasion that I find distateful". Lies are bad faith, wouldn't you agree?

    They call themselves "Western chauvinists". Now there's a euphemism if I ever heard one. They're white supremacists; they just don't want to use those specific words.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    "the non existent threat of "white supremacists" when you can be talking about virtually anybody, in any context, of any belief system."

    Should, should someone tell him about all the history of white supremacy?
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    I think I've been completely unfair to say that the Trump Administration has no pandemic plan. This new story reveals that I was completely wrong. It turns out they do have a plan, which is clearly "kill as many people as possible":

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/health/covid-cruise-ships.html?referringSource=articleShare

    Technically it would be suicide unless Trump forced people to get on the ships. The cruise industry should be able to open back up at some point once they have a good plan on how to handle the virus. Opening up doesn't mean people are going to flock to their ships though. I'd be shocked if many people are willing to roll the ? (but not totally shocked)...
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    I'm almost incapable of taking solace from polls at this point, but the last two days, we have seen polls in South Carolina and Alaska that not only show Trump only up one point, but the Senate races basically tied in each state. Republicans should be winning these states by 10 points.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Ok, got to the point in the debate where Wallace asked Trump to condemn white supremacy. Here is the softball (rough transcript):

    “You have repeatedly criticized the Vice President for not specifically calling out Antifa and left wing extremist groups, but are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacist and militia groups and to say and they need to stand down and not add to the violence that we saw in Kenosha and as we’ve seen in Portland.”

    Trump: “Sure I am willing to do that.”

    Wallace: “Do it.”

    Trump: “The way I see it, everything that I see is from the left-wing.”

    Wallace: “What are you- what are-“

    Trump: “I am willing to do anything, I want to see peace.”

    Wallace: “Then do it sir.”

    Biden: “Then do it, say it”

    Trump: “What do you want to call them, what Do you want to - give me a name?”

    Wallace: “White suppresses and -“

    Trump: “Give me a name”

    Biden: “Proud Boys”

    Wallace: “Proud Boys”

    Trump: “Proud Boys stand back and stand by... but so tell you what it’s about Antifa and the right.”

    So when Biden gave the name, he wasn’t clinging too the white supremacy in the topic, but the actual issue with the violence which is the militia groups such as the proud boys.

    ~

    I get Tracey’s comment on how supporters of Trump are being lumped in with terms that they personally don’t relate too, but this wasn’t the issue here AND he could have easily pivoted and said “I condemn, and have condemn white supremacy in the past but white supremacists aren’t the ones burning our cities to the ground.”

    After watching it, what I suspected happened actually happened, which is Trump doesn’t like other people telling him what to do, so this very softball question right after Biden had to explain how he is the Democratic Party and he hasn’t called on the democratic mayors to crack down on the violence, was blown up because he couldn’t even tell his supporters (and the Proud Boys are Trump supporters) to stand down.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2020
    The simple fact of the matter is, groups like the Proud Boys BELIEVE Trump is on their side (indeed, in this case, believe he is issuing them orders). Does ANYONE honestly believe antifa/anarchists on the streets believe Joe Biden has their back or is somehow remotely sympathetic to their beliefs?? If it was Bernie, you might have an argument, but this is Joe frickin' Biden. The primary narrative problem of the Trump campaign is they are trying to paint this lifelong centrist as some South American-style socialist, and Biden has a 4 decade-long record and public persona that directly contradicts that. Again, it's like they just kept the Bernie playbook and crossed out his name and wrote in "Joe" instead and didn't change another word.

    The only thing you will hear from the far left when someone says "Joe Biden is a tool of the far left" is "oh how I wish that were true". Biden has decided to sacrifice a portion of that demographic for ones that actually show up and vote, namely seniors and suburban women. And Trump's numbers with those women are abysmal bordering on Seventh Circle of Hell. And last night didn't help his cause.

    And the straight truth is, all the civil unrest of the last month has been confined to a couple city blocks in Portland, Seattle and Kenosha. And when Trump tells people their cities are burning down, most people have no idea what he is talking about. If you don't live downtown in one of those cities, you haven't personally experienced any of it. But COVID-19?? Everyone is experiencing that, every second of the day. When he goes into his OAN diatribes about the deep state and Hunter Biden, most people have no more idea what he is saying than your grandmother would if she was listening to the Wu-Tang Clan. It doesn't make a lick of sense to anyone outside that isolated eco-system. And they are rabid supporters. But what they believe is a foreign language to most people. And I'm 100% convinced the jab about Hunter's cocaine problem went over like a lead balloon with any independent voter.
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    edited September 2020
    @semiticgod : I'm a new member of this forum, so I can't comment on your work as a moderator. What I can say is that I wish you the best, and that I hope I can still ask you stuff about Icewind Dale 2 from time to time, since I think you know that game better than I do. Stay safe, girl.
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,597
    edited September 2020
    So, looks like my initial read of the debate as, at best, a draw was far too generous to Trump. I think we can see with the rapid polls in the wake of it, and the focus groups that some people did (less useful than polling tho) that it was a clear loss for Trump.

    I think Biden came out looking exactly like how anyone who had been following reliable news would have predicted. A moderate Democrat, not the most articulate guy, a little too old perhaps, but otherwise pretty normal. Trump was unlikable on a completely different level during the debate, and we can see clear evidence of this among polling of the public. I suspect overall polling will start to tilt even further away from him this week.

    I don't understand the quixotic desire to defend Trump's white supremacist comments. I personally wouldn't go so far as to say Trump was endorsing them. But he had a chance to give a simple one or two word condemnation -- something he's shown no hesitation in doing regarding even former members of his cabinet -- and he didn't. And the American people have noticed.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    DinoDin wrote: »

    I don't understand the quixotic desire

    My twitter handle is a variation of the name Don Quixote, so I appreciate the reference.

    My forum icon has Don Quixote too : D
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    semiticgod wrote: »
    I just signed up to be an Election Protection volunteer at protectthevote.net. I take a training session this coming Monday to find out what I can do to help out.

    How long is your training? I have a friend who signed up to be a poll official, and they're making him do an absolute ton of training (like 6am to 9 pm with a lunch break in a week or two).
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 773
    @semiticgod I am very sorry to hear that but totally understand, take care
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited October 2020
    You'd have trouble finding 5 people in the country who would be sad if he just didn't show up. Even most people on the right agree that Trump's behavior makes having anything that can even remotely fit the definition of a "debate" totally impossible. And if he does show up, and rules such as mike cutting are enforced, he'll just bitch and whine about it for a week. So just forget about them altogether. Frankly, if you are still making up your mind at this point, I have to question whether "undecided" isn't a short-hand for "willfully uninformed". The way the media props up these people every 4 years who are "waiting for the debate to make up their mind" is nauseating. They aren't being judicious, they are being lazy and expecting to cram a semester of work into 90 minutes:

  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    One of the only things fascists and communists agree on is for their utter dislike of the LGBTQ community. People need to understand this before they take on a movements ideals.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Æmrys wrote: »
    One of the only things fascists and communists agree on is for their utter dislike of the LGBTQ community. People need to understand this before they take on a movements ideals.
    Things in the U.S. are a little different. Real communists are super rare in this country, but the ones that do exist are very LGBT-friendly. It's a running joke in the trans community that so many trans critters are diehard socialists, and a few call themselves communists (my girlfriend calls herself a communist as a joke, but she's said if she had to pick a label for real she'd just say socialist).

    Homophobia among communists is more of a Latin American and Eurasian thing. In those places, the persecution of gay and trans folks has been vicious across both fascist and communist governments.
  • ÆmrysÆmrys Member Posts: 125
    It's not a thing, it is what it is whether we joke about it from the comfort and privilege of a democracy or not.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited October 2020
    The debate antics seem to have hurt Trump way more than anticipated. The Real Clear Politics average has Biden climbing back over 7%, 538 has bumped Biden up to 80% win probability for the first time, but, more importantly, recent polls now show Biden with a slight (statistically insignificant lead) in both Iowa and Georgia. I don't really believe Biden is going to win either of those states (though he could). But I do know that a Republican President who is on the path to re-election is not in a dead-heat with his challenger in states he won by 10 points four years ago. Biden being neck and neck with him in Florida and Ohio is bad enough, but if Iowa and Georgia are now in play, Trump doesn't just have to draw a Royal Flush, he has to draw one on multiple hands in a row.

    Add to this Greg Abbott going full voter suppression in Texas by removing drop boxes (limiting it to one per county) and it is clear the GOP is scared shitless even in the Lone Star state. If they can't even comfortably hold Texas and Georgia, pretty soon all they are going to have left is the absolute heart of the Confederacy and states where you have to make sure your tank is topped off when you drive through them because you might not see a gas station for 2 hours at a time. Never mind the poll from earlier in the week that only had Biden down one in frickin' South Carolina, and Lindsey Graham in a statistical tie with his challenger.

    This guy from the Cook Political Report is about as straight-laced as it gets when it comes to analyzing numbers from all across the country right down to the district level. His only dog in the fight is what the data is telling him:


    Those suburban numbers have been the story from the very first special elections after he took office, to 2018, to now. It's women who will take Trump down if he loses. His numbers with them are just absurdly horrible, and appear to actually be getting worse. Biden is performing slightly worse than Hillary among African-Americans and Latinos, but those losses are dwarfed by what has been happening in the suburbs the last four years, and what has happened with seniors since COVID-19 hit.
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,597
    Georgia should be especially worrying for Republicans. There are two Senate races there that have become competitive. The party, in aligning itself so much with Trump, has really become completely out of step with the majority of the citizens of the country.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    South Carolina and Georgia are in play. It's early yet, but some of the very very early returns from the debate may have been bad for downballots. I just saw a poll that has Ernst down like 13 points in Iowa. That's almost certainly an outlier - but if she's down even 4 or 5 points, it would be a HUGE shift. Iowa is well to the right of Ohio, even if Obama managed to sneak a win there in the past.

    Some news about ad buys are coming in, and the GOP is investing a LOT of money into the Kansas senate race of all things. They're worried they'll lose in Kansas.

    What's more, the Democrats seem to be absolute cash flush. Saw Jamie Harrison is spending 7 million this week alone in SC. We're still a month out and he has *that* much to spend.


    In other random news: Hope Hicks has COVID19. I hope she gets well soon. She was at Trump's rally last night in MN apparently, and rode on Airforce 1 with him.
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