There was one dipshit who wore his MAGA hat to the polls at my precinct. Guess what? Nothing happened. Nobody even reacted to him. That's what you give these assholes. A shrug and a roll of the eyes...
The people I see with MAGA hats around my town look like they are one missed rent payment away from homelessness. Scruffy, unbathed, awful looking people with scowls on their faces. Your mileage may vary of course, in other places I've seen more reasonable looking people.
They are where I came from, my people. Ever see Next of Kin? Swear to god that is my family. They build your houses, and grow all of the bacon you eat. You know the gestation period of a hog? Unfortunately I do, 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days. They are the Hatfields and McCoys. It is easy to make them afraid, they see their world shrinking and other people making their decisions for them. They are afraid and they are angry. They don't understand the world you live in. Most of the rest of the GOP's base are Alex P Keaton, aka Ben Shapiro, they don't care what happens to the Hatfields and McCoys. My family doesn't watch the news though, not very educated, they can't see that the people that they are keeping them in power don't want them anywhere near their golf course, they are just using them to gain and keep power. They don't know world events, they know what Jake said to them during lunch break.
I am as disparaging of them as anyone, I have earned that right. You haven't. You do not know them. Their strengths, their heart. Oh I hate how easily they are swayed, but I do know them and they are, for the most part, not evil. They are the volunteer firemen, police, contractors, the first ones to say, Okay, I'll go. when there is an emergency. It is easy to dismiss them, they haven't cared for a long time if you did, that time is past. Someone made them fear so they stood up. Not happy about the side they chose but it was inevitable.
They are the reason that the electoral college exists, to protect their rights. To protect their lives, of which you know not of.
There was one dipshit who wore his MAGA hat to the polls at my precinct. Guess what? Nothing happened. Nobody even reacted to him. That's what you give these assholes. A shrug and a roll of the eyes...
The people I see with MAGA hats around my town look like they are one missed rent payment away from homelessness. Scruffy, unbathed, awful looking people with scowls on their faces. Your mileage may vary of course, in other places I've seen more reasonable looking people.
They are where I came from, my people. Ever see Next of Kin? Swear to god that is my family. They build your houses, and grow all of the bacon you eat. You know the gestation period of a hog? Unfortunately I do, 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days. They are the Hatfields and McCoys. It is easy to make them afraid, they see their world shrinking and other people making their decisions for them. They are afraid and they are angry. They don't understand the world you live in. Most of the rest of the GOP's base are Alex P Keaton, aka Ben Shapiro, they don't care what happens to the Hatfields and McCoys. My family doesn't watch the news though, not very educated, they can't see that the people that they are keeping them in power don't want them anywhere near their golf course, they are just using them to gain and keep power. They don't know world events, they know what Jake said to them during lunch break.
I am as disparaging of them as anyone, I have earned that right. You haven't. You do not know them. Their strengths, their heart. Oh I hate how easily they are swayed, but I do know them and they are, for the most part, not evil. They are the volunteer firemen, police, contractors, the first ones to say, Okay, I'll go. when there is an emergency. It is easy to dismiss them, they haven't cared for a long time if you did, that time is past. Someone made them fear so they stood up. Not happy about the side they chose but it was inevitable.
They are the reason that the electoral college exists, to protect their rights. To protect their lives, of which you know not of.
I know exactly who you're talking about. I was raised by them. They're totally not evil. They're the ones who would risk their lives for you. Just don't ask them to agree with you about everything. We need them though!
@_Nightfall_ Eh, the EC was created to protect slave owners of small states who wanted to have more say in elections but didn't want slaves to vote.
"I am as disparaging of them as anyone, I have earned that right. You haven't. You do not know them."
You seem awfully sure of that.
Also, I don't know if pointing them out as police is exactly a support of their character, considering recent events...
You're one of the ones who's awfully sure of themself. Just saying. You're one of the least open-minded persons on this forum. I don't really care because we all come from different circumstances so I welcome all perspectives. I'm just saying you might want to expand your mind a bit...
Edit: Don't want to come off so harsh after re-reading. I can totally relate to your POV, but you have a tendency to demonize those who disagree with you. That's what I'm referring to. Not any criticism of where you're coming from.
@_Nightfall_ Eh, the EC was created to protect slave owners of small states who wanted to have more say in elections but didn't want slaves to vote.
"I am as disparaging of them as anyone, I have earned that right. You haven't. You do not know them."
You seem awfully sure of that.
Also, I don't know if pointing them out as police is exactly a support of their character, considering recent events...
Kay, more than a little tired of people having a go at the police. Have there been crimes? Yes. Are all police or even a majority corrupt or bad? No. There is a need for change, glaring need, but are most officers bad? Not likely. Yes they are fighting back. Ever watch Tom & Jerry? Tom was reading a book about catching a mouse, the end of the thing the book said that you just need to corner the mouse and he will be timid and weak. The last frames are Tom's spirit floating to heaven saying, Don't you believe it. Cops are not bad because they are cops, find it ridiculous that there is a need to keep going over that. Are the average local police fucktards? Yes they are, my brothers are fucktards though and they are generally good people.
I don't care why the EC originated, today it protects millions of people that you seem not to care about. Only the people that live in or near cities matter? Is that what you are saying? And people wonder why polling doesn't work.
Yes I am. No one who made that statement has a clue of the people I grew up with. When I was 16 I lived in a house in the mountains of WV. Running water but no bathroom, an outhouse. Electricity but the hot water and heat were propane. I couldn't afford it so I went without everything but electricity. I was on my own and it was the only way I could afford to stay in school. I had four quilts and I could see outside through the walls from my bed. It was 1985. Know someone like that do you? There are many that understand where I came from, if there are people here that do, I apologize for being um... weird. Are you one of those people?
@_Nightfall_ Eh, the EC was created to protect slave owners of small states who wanted to have more say in elections but didn't want slaves to vote.
"I am as disparaging of them as anyone, I have earned that right. You haven't. You do not know them."
You seem awfully sure of that.
Also, I don't know if pointing them out as police is exactly a support of their character, considering recent events...
Kay, more than a little tired of people having a go at the police. Have there been crimes? Yes. Are all police or even a majority corrupt or bad? No. There is a need for change, glaring need, but are most officers bad? Not likely. Yes they are fighting back. Ever watch Tom & Jerry? Tom was reading a book about catching a mouse, the end of the thing the book said that you just need to corner the mouse and he will be timid and weak. The last frames are Tom's spirit floating to heaven saying, Don't you believe it. Cops are not bad because they are cops, find it ridiculous that there is a need to keep going over that. Are the average local police fucktards? Yes they are, my brothers are fucktards though and they are generally good people.
I don't care why the EC originated, today it protects millions of people that you seem not to care about. Only the people that live in or near cities matter? Is that what you are saying? And people wonder why polling doesn't work.
Yes I am. No one who made that statement has a clue of the people I grew up with. When I was 16 I lived in a house in the mountains of WV. No running water, an outhouse. Electricity but the hot water and heat were propane. I couldn't afford it so I went without everything but electricity. I was on my own and it was the only way I could afford to stay in school. I had four quilts and I could see outside through the walls from my bed. It was 1985. Know someone like that do you? There are many that understand where I came from, if there are people here that do, I apologize for being um... weird. Are you one of those people?
I grew up in the sticks of Michigan so I probably relate to you more than most on this forum. I'm stuck in the middle of the political spectrum because I went to Michigan Tech and got a degree in science. My parents were in total support of my education until it led me to not agreeing with them on religious issues. I still agree with them in some things, but not everything. That's not good enough for them. I've mostly made my peace with my views though. I'm unique. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with you either...
@Balrog99
I don't know your kin and never claimed to. I described my experience as what I see in my small town I live in. I'm not going out much because I'm responsible in the pandemic but when I have gone to Walmart, the small sample size of guys I've seen with Trump hats look rough as I described. It's a small sample size, anecdotal evidence.
Trump got tens of millions of votes. I am disappointed in America falling for this obvious con man. But just because he's that way it doesn't really say anything about the character of the voters being anything. Well other than being ok with voting for a bad hombre. They must have their reasons. As someone who has paid attention to what he's done and who he is, I don't get it.
I do not agree with you that these people deserve extra power over other Americans just because they live a different life as you describe it. In fact it sounds like they do not need extra power over people struggling to live in cities at all since they don't understand the lives of others. They sound like they are all set as but again and as you say, I don't know them and don't claim to.
@_Nightfall_ "Are all police or even a majority corrupt or bad? No."
I've seen more than enough footage of police brutality to give comments like this any weight.
"I don't care why the EC originated, today it protects millions of people that you seem not to care about. Only the people that live in or near cities matter?"
This works both ways. Why do the votes of a fraction of the population matter more? Do people that live in cities not matter? Is that what you are saying?
@Balrog99 "You're one of the ones who's awfully sure of themself. Just saying. You're one of the least open-minded persons on this forum."
Oh yeah, I went from republican, to libertarian, to independant and supported a political party that was my polar opposite less than 10 years ago because I'm close minded. I come from a heavily conservative background, but i support the LGBT+ community because I'm close minded.
I just corrected someone who said they cannot be judged because someone else cannot know a group of people as well as her. Even though she knows nothing of the other person. Because I'm close minded.
@_Nightfall_ "Are all police or even a majority corrupt or bad? No."
I've seen more than enough footage of police brutality to give comments like this any weight.
"I don't care why the EC originated, today it protects millions of people that you seem not to care about. Only the people that live in or near cities matter?"
This works both ways. Why do the votes of a fraction of the population matter more? Do people that live in cities not matter? Is that what you are saying?
@Balrog99 "You're one of the ones who's awfully sure of themself. Just saying. You're one of the least open-minded persons on this forum."
Oh yeah, I went from republican, to libertarian, to independant and supported a political party that was my polar opposite less than 10 years ago because I'm close minded. I come from a heavily conservative background, but i support the LGBT+ community because I'm close minded.
I just corrected someone who said they cannot be judged because someone else cannot know a group of people as well as her. Even though she knows nothing of the other person. Because I'm close minded.
You come off as close-minded to me. Might just be my own impression though (but I doubt it). I'm not asking you to change your views, just asking for a little less vehemence. You have your PoV, others have a different reference point. I'll bet at least 75% of what you want I'd agree with. Let's find a way to get that 75% and agree to disagree with the other 25%. That's all I'm saying...
@Balrog99
I don't know your kin and never claimed to. I described my experience as what I see in my small town I live in. I'm not going out much because I'm responsible in the pandemic but when I have gone to Walmart, the small sample size of guys I've seen with Trump hats look rough as I described. It's a small sample size, anecdotal evidence.
Trump got tens of millions of votes. I am disappointed in America falling for this obvious con man. But just because he's that way it doesn't really say anything about the character of the voters being anything. Well other than being ok with voting for a bad hombre. They must have their reasons. As someone who has paid attention to what he's done and who he is, I don't get it.
I do not agree with you that these people deserve extra power over other Americans just because they live a different life as you describe it. In fact it sounds like they do not need extra power over people struggling to live in cities at all since they don't understand the lives of others. They sound like they are all set as but again and as you say, I don't know them and don't claim to.
I'm open to getting rid of the EC now. Let's agree on that at least. It won't be the panacea you think for reasons that @DinoDin explained to me logically. It never occurred to me that there were more conservatives in California than there are in Pennsylvania before. Be careful what you wish for...
@_Nightfall_ "Are all police or even a majority corrupt or bad? No."
I've seen more than enough footage of police brutality to give comments like this any weight.
"I don't care why the EC originated, today it protects millions of people that you seem not to care about. Only the people that live in or near cities matter?"
This works both ways. Why do the votes of a fraction of the population matter more? Do people that live in cities not matter? Is that what you are saying?
@Balrog99 "You're one of the ones who's awfully sure of themself. Just saying. You're one of the least open-minded persons on this forum."
Oh yeah, I went from republican, to libertarian, to independant and supported a political party that was my polar opposite less than 10 years ago because I'm close minded. I come from a heavily conservative background, but i support the LGBT+ community because I'm close minded.
I just corrected someone who said they cannot be judged because someone else cannot know a group of people as well as her. Even though she knows nothing of the other person. Because I'm close minded.
You come off as close-minded to me. Might just be my own impression though (but I doubt it). I'm not asking you to change your views, just asking for a little less vehemence. You have your PoV, others have a different reference point. I'll bet at least 75% of what you want I'd agree with. Let's find a way to get that 75% and agree to disagree with the other 25%. That's all I'm saying...
If opposing police brutality or not letting people get a pass for enabling Trump is close minded, then call me close minded. Because I sure as heck am not about to support either of those things.
@_Nightfall_ "Are all police or even a majority corrupt or bad? No."
I've seen more than enough footage of police brutality to give comments like this any weight.
"I don't care why the EC originated, today it protects millions of people that you seem not to care about. Only the people that live in or near cities matter?"
This works both ways. Why do the votes of a fraction of the population matter more? Do people that live in cities not matter? Is that what you are saying?
@Balrog99 "You're one of the ones who's awfully sure of themself. Just saying. You're one of the least open-minded persons on this forum."
Oh yeah, I went from republican, to libertarian, to independant and supported a political party that was my polar opposite less than 10 years ago because I'm close minded. I come from a heavily conservative background, but i support the LGBT+ community because I'm close minded.
I just corrected someone who said they cannot be judged because someone else cannot know a group of people as well as her. Even though she knows nothing of the other person. Because I'm close minded.
You come off as close-minded to me. Might just be my own impression though (but I doubt it). I'm not asking you to change your views, just asking for a little less vehemence. You have your PoV, others have a different reference point. I'll bet at least 75% of what you want I'd agree with. Let's find a way to get that 75% and agree to disagree with the other 25%. That's all I'm saying...
If opposing police brutality or not letting people get a pass for enabling Trump is close minded, then call me close minded. Because I sure as heck am not about to support either of those things.
I agree. Exactly why I didnt vote for the Orange Asshole this time.
So, the networks are just stalling for time at this point. Arizona has a SLIM chance of being a nail-biter for Trump, but FOX and the AP are adamant about their call from last night, so we'll see. Nevada is taking it's sweet ass time, but John Ralston, the election guru in the state, seems pretty confident Biden is going to pull it out when the urban areas are counted. Georgia is literally down to the wire, but it actually seems more likely than not that Biden will overtake Trump at the finish line, AND force a 2nd run-off that would represent an outside shot at Dems taking the Senate. But all of that is small potatoes compared to Pennsylvania. And unless the data nerds (who are now looking at raw vote totals rather than polls) are 1000% wrong about what's coming, then Trump has virtually no chance of winning the state once the votes are in. And that would be the ballgame.
@Balrog99
I don't know your kin and never claimed to. I described my experience as what I see in my small town I live in. I'm not going out much because I'm responsible in the pandemic but when I have gone to Walmart, the small sample size of guys I've seen with Trump hats look rough as I described. It's a small sample size, anecdotal evidence.
Trump got tens of millions of votes. I am disappointed in America falling for this obvious con man. But just because he's that way it doesn't really say anything about the character of the voters being anything. Well other than being ok with voting for a bad hombre. They must have their reasons. As someone who has paid attention to what he's done and who he is, I don't get it.
I do not agree with you that these people deserve extra power over other Americans just because they live a different life as you describe it. In fact it sounds like they do not need extra power over people struggling to live in cities at all since they don't understand the lives of others. They sound like they are all set as but again and as you say, I don't know them and don't claim to.
I'm open to getting rid of the EC now. Let's agree on that at least. It won't be the panacea you think for reasons that @DinoDin explained to me logically. It never occurred to me that there were more conservatives in California than there are in Pennsylvania before. Be careful what you wish for...
I understand there's millions of Conservatives in California and New York. Regardless, the people should pick the Prez not some other artificial construct of states. A person's vote should matter.
I suppose if the system changed the battlegrounds would mostly be the cities - where most Americans people live - and the Conservative candidate could basically ignore the country because they'd vote for him anyway.
So maybe the right winger goes more moderate to appeal to the swing states in cities. Maybe the liberal thinks he has the city votes in the bag and broadens his appeal and tries to bleed off some country votes.
So, the networks are just stalling for time at this point. Arizona has a SLIM chance of being a nail-biter for Trump, but FOX and the AP are adamant about their call from last night, so we'll see. Nevada is taking it's sweet ass time, but John Ralston, the election guru in the state, seems pretty confident Biden is going to pull it out when the urban areas are counted. Georgia is literally down to the wire, but it actually seems more likely than not that Biden will overtake Trump at the finish line, AND force a 2nd run-off that would represent an outside shot at Dems taking the Senate. But all of that is small potatoes compared to Pennsylvania. And unless the data nerds (who are now looking at raw vote totals rather than polls) are 1000% wrong about what's coming, then Trump has virtually no chance of winning the state once the votes are in. And that would be the ballgame.
I won't mourn Trump losing. Fuck him and the train he rode in on. Too bad I had to vote for somebody I didn't really like but it's not like It was the first time. I lost my virginity when I voted for Dole...
@_Nightfall_ "Are all police or even a majority corrupt or bad? No."
I've seen more than enough footage of police brutality to give comments like this any weight.
"I don't care why the EC originated, today it protects millions of people that you seem not to care about. Only the people that live in or near cities matter?"
This works both ways. Why do the votes of a fraction of the population matter more? Do people that live in cities not matter? Is that what you are saying?
@Balrog99 "You're one of the ones who's awfully sure of themself. Just saying. You're one of the least open-minded persons on this forum."
Oh yeah, I went from republican, to libertarian, to independant and supported a political party that was my polar opposite less than 10 years ago because I'm close minded. I come from a heavily conservative background, but i support the LGBT+ community because I'm close minded.
I just corrected someone who said they cannot be judged because someone else cannot know a group of people as well as her. Even though she knows nothing of the other person. Because I'm close minded.
Bottom to top.
Oh no, show me you know where I came from. Anyone? That is what I was saying. You don't know them, judging comes easy doesn't it?
Agreeing with Black Lives Matter does not make you black. Common sense really, same with lgbtq, doesn't make you help you understand them better. It is the right thing to do, but somehow hillbillies are denied that right. I agree that they are wrong in some... okay, most of their views but that description was not very generous and I called Smeogal out on only that one thing. Should I not have?
Then why do they need you? Why should they adhere to your rules? Could America be great if not for the working class? Who is mining your coal? Who has the timber? Who has the natural resourses that those populated places could not live without? You care about gas prices? There is a redneck working that makes your fuel prices lower. Seriously, oust the rest of the nation that doesn't live in a populated area, they will be grateful and you can enjoy poverty for a while. Who is growing your food? Philadelphia, New York, LA? Maybe it is time we all grow up and understand that we need each other. Wanna know why the dems have struggled so much when their opponents are so totally awful? Because of that statement you made. You actually believe you would be great without them. The populated places are nothing without them. We are not Bahrain or Dubai, you actually have to supply something other than money to get something. Yeah, some of the populated places would survive, if they paid the populated places enough mone to suply them, the rest would crumble. Your argument is no different than saying we could maintain our econemy without the effort of immigrant workers. The EC says that those people and places that you seem not to care about have representation. You want to deny them representation and are appalled that they would dare not be happy with that.
You have seen footage? Ever been there when the lights are flashing? I believe that everyone that thinks they can live without polic... no, not going to go there. If you ever find yourself in that world, send me a postcard, I have never been to hell.
@Balrog99
I don't know your kin and never claimed to. I described my experience as what I see in my small town I live in. I'm not going out much because I'm responsible in the pandemic but when I have gone to Walmart, the small sample size of guys I've seen with Trump hats look rough as I described. It's a small sample size, anecdotal evidence.
Trump got tens of millions of votes. I am disappointed in America falling for this obvious con man. But just because he's that way it doesn't really say anything about the character of the voters being anything. Well other than being ok with voting for a bad hombre. They must have their reasons. As someone who has paid attention to what he's done and who he is, I don't get it.
I do not agree with you that these people deserve extra power over other Americans just because they live a different life as you describe it. In fact it sounds like they do not need extra power over people struggling to live in cities at all since they don't understand the lives of others. They sound like they are all set as but again and as you say, I don't know them and don't claim to.
I'm open to getting rid of the EC now. Let's agree on that at least. It won't be the panacea you think for reasons that @DinoDin explained to me logically. It never occurred to me that there were more conservatives in California than there are in Pennsylvania before. Be careful what you wish for...
I understand there's millions of Conservatives in California and New York. Regardless, the people should pick the Prez not some other artificial construct of states. A person's vote should matter.
I suppose if the system changed the battlegrounds would mostly be the cities - where most Americans people live - and the Conservative candidate could basically ignore the country because they'd vote for him anyway.
So maybe the right winger goes more moderate to appeal to the swing states in cities. Maybe the liberal thinks he has the city votes in the bag and broadens his appeal and tries to bleed off some country votes.
Funny how logic can change people's views sometimes. I'm probably just weird. but maybe I'm not???
Seems to me the cops in NY are pissed because they think Trump is going to lose, but that's just me. In Arizona, armed Trump supporters caused the temporary halting of the vote count because the people inside were in fear for their safety. Which is interesting, because since Trump is DOWN in Arizona, the only way he can stage a comeback is to have them keep counting votes.
The Trump supporter logic on display tonight is so amazing I am almost amused by it. They think all counting should stop where Trump leads, and it should continue wherever he is trailing. Meanwhile, the Biden/Harris camp has been repeating all day one simple phrase "count every vote". Sorta gives you a pretty clear indication of who thinks they're losing and who thinks they are going to prevail. The true ridiculousness of this cult of personality is on full display tonight. They are really letting their freak flag fly.
Well it looks like Peters is going to win after all. He's up 70k votes on James now. My only vote I kinda regret. James seems like a good guy but I voted for Peters because of the Orange Asshole. At least it wasn't decided by one vote so I don't have to feel really bad about it! ?
This is some funny shit. It seems that, after Georgia, North Carolina—which everyone thought was a done deal for Trump—now also has a chance of flipping over to Biden as well.
The guy who wrote Art of the Deal can't close a deal. ?
P.S. I'm gonna make another meme for North Carolina to prepare for the flip.
Edit: And for God's sake give Toledo back to Michigan where it belongs!
Hey now, we fought a war over this and you guys lost.
We surrendered to get Southern Canada (da UP). I'm not complaining since I went to Michigan Tech which would likely have been part of Wisconsin otherwise, but we lost the Mudhens. Not really resolved IMHO... ?
This is truly disturbing to me. Even Saginaw County barely went to Biden. Are we approaching a Hunger Games scenario between urban and rural people? This needs to be addressed before it tears this country apart!
Edit: FYI - Wayne County (Detroit environs) is where I live so I'm not complaining about the results per se. Just feeling for the rural folks. I know folks in those rural counties. As bad as the inner-cities are, the rural areas ain't no panacea anymore either. Perhaps the Dems could champion them a bit more. Just a thought...
Im done with CNN. They're totally propaganda now. No better than Fox News. If Trump loses it's going to be because white males didnt vote for his racist ass as much as they did in 2016.
There's been some discussion last night about the electoral college and how that is weighted against more densely populated areas. I thought it might be worth considering the extent to which that happens.
The constitution sets out 3 main forms of representation - for the House, the Senate and the electoral college.
- of those, the one which is most obviously intended to significantly over-represent sparsely populated areas is the Senate - where representation is equal between states regardless of population.
- the representation for the House is, in principle, set equal to population. However, lags in recalculating this (based on the census every 10 years) mean it won't necessarily reflect the latest situation. In addition there is a noticeable bias introduced as a result of population disparities being unable to be fully reflected by whole numbers. In the first census in 1790 the smallest population of the then 13 states (in Delaware) constituted 1.5% of the total US population. With a total House size of 105 there was no problem of small states being rounded up to 1, but there were rounding errors above that. It's unlikely the Founders could have conceived of the extent of population disparity today, where the smallest states are around 0.2% of total population and hence (even with the House at 435 members) would notionally expect less than a single representative. The extent of the rounding errors though are very marginal - all within a few tenths of a percent. California for instance had 11.91% of the population and 12.18% of the seats.
- the electoral college representation is an amalgam of the above systems, being based on the House seats, but then with each state getting an additional 2 representatives. In 1790 that adjustment would have been smaller due to the much greater homogeneity among the states. Delaware and Rhode Island for instance would have gone from 2 out of 105 House seats (a fraction under 2%) to 4 out of 131 electoral college representatives (a fraction over 3%) - giving a 60% uplift in their proportional representation. The impact now is more obvious with the 7 smallest states each getting an uplift of 140%. That effectively gets paid for by the largest states, with California and Texas both taking a 15% hit on their share of the electoral college compared to population.
In principle I can't see any particular problem with not following a system of representation based solely on population. That seems to follow pretty logically from the US being set up originally as a federation of states and not a single homogenous country. These sorts of issues have been discussed quite a bit in the EU, given the way it progressed over time from a collection of totally independent nation states to an entity which has a significant amount of influence over the original nation states. While the larger countries certainly have had far more influence than the smaller ones, the treaty set up recognizes the potential problem of tyranny by the majority. That's why representation in the European Parliament follows the principle of "degressive proportionality" - EU speak for smaller population countries having relatively more representatives - and a veto is available to individual countries over some major decisions.
The problem seems to me to be not so much the levels of representation, but how those representatives act. As others have said, the system used by most states of allocating all representatives to the winner of the vote in that state leads to most states being ignored in presidential elections. I suspect that basing representation on a more proportional system would both spread attention more equally across the nation come election time and help mitigate some of the feelings of division and marginalization exhibited by, e.g. liberals in rural areas and conservatives in urban ones.
Im done with CNN. They're totally propaganda now. No better than Fox News. If Trump loses it's going to be because white males didnt vote for his racist ass as much as they did in 2016.
ABC is middle left but still find the time, as Robert Downey Jr. said it, 'go full retard'. NBC went full and FOX is just trash, CNN is not even news anymore they have become opinion hit piece shows. And Joey Reid calling Judge Clarence Thomas "Uncle Thomas", the same idiot that said russian bots were to blame for her homophobic comments. Guess shes all grown up now and a Queen.
I have found though that in this thread the last few pages and around in IRL that there is more of a racist and bigoted tone coming from people who identify as progressives. If a MAGA hat or a group of gay men and women that are for trump can get you to turn ugly or show your true colors then what are we really fighting for.
Comments
They are where I came from, my people. Ever see Next of Kin? Swear to god that is my family. They build your houses, and grow all of the bacon you eat. You know the gestation period of a hog? Unfortunately I do, 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days. They are the Hatfields and McCoys. It is easy to make them afraid, they see their world shrinking and other people making their decisions for them. They are afraid and they are angry. They don't understand the world you live in. Most of the rest of the GOP's base are Alex P Keaton, aka Ben Shapiro, they don't care what happens to the Hatfields and McCoys. My family doesn't watch the news though, not very educated, they can't see that the people that they are keeping them in power don't want them anywhere near their golf course, they are just using them to gain and keep power. They don't know world events, they know what Jake said to them during lunch break.
I am as disparaging of them as anyone, I have earned that right. You haven't. You do not know them. Their strengths, their heart. Oh I hate how easily they are swayed, but I do know them and they are, for the most part, not evil. They are the volunteer firemen, police, contractors, the first ones to say, Okay, I'll go. when there is an emergency. It is easy to dismiss them, they haven't cared for a long time if you did, that time is past. Someone made them fear so they stood up. Not happy about the side they chose but it was inevitable.
They are the reason that the electoral college exists, to protect their rights. To protect their lives, of which you know not of.
I know exactly who you're talking about. I was raised by them. They're totally not evil. They're the ones who would risk their lives for you. Just don't ask them to agree with you about everything. We need them though!
"I am as disparaging of them as anyone, I have earned that right. You haven't. You do not know them."
You seem awfully sure of that.
Also, I don't know if pointing them out as police is exactly a support of their character, considering recent events...
You're one of the ones who's awfully sure of themself. Just saying. You're one of the least open-minded persons on this forum. I don't really care because we all come from different circumstances so I welcome all perspectives. I'm just saying you might want to expand your mind a bit...
Edit: Don't want to come off so harsh after re-reading. I can totally relate to your POV, but you have a tendency to demonize those who disagree with you. That's what I'm referring to. Not any criticism of where you're coming from.
Kay, more than a little tired of people having a go at the police. Have there been crimes? Yes. Are all police or even a majority corrupt or bad? No. There is a need for change, glaring need, but are most officers bad? Not likely. Yes they are fighting back. Ever watch Tom & Jerry? Tom was reading a book about catching a mouse, the end of the thing the book said that you just need to corner the mouse and he will be timid and weak. The last frames are Tom's spirit floating to heaven saying, Don't you believe it. Cops are not bad because they are cops, find it ridiculous that there is a need to keep going over that. Are the average local police fucktards? Yes they are, my brothers are fucktards though and they are generally good people.
I don't care why the EC originated, today it protects millions of people that you seem not to care about. Only the people that live in or near cities matter? Is that what you are saying? And people wonder why polling doesn't work.
Yes I am. No one who made that statement has a clue of the people I grew up with. When I was 16 I lived in a house in the mountains of WV. Running water but no bathroom, an outhouse. Electricity but the hot water and heat were propane. I couldn't afford it so I went without everything but electricity. I was on my own and it was the only way I could afford to stay in school. I had four quilts and I could see outside through the walls from my bed. It was 1985. Know someone like that do you? There are many that understand where I came from, if there are people here that do, I apologize for being um... weird. Are you one of those people?
I grew up in the sticks of Michigan so I probably relate to you more than most on this forum. I'm stuck in the middle of the political spectrum because I went to Michigan Tech and got a degree in science. My parents were in total support of my education until it led me to not agreeing with them on religious issues. I still agree with them in some things, but not everything. That's not good enough for them. I've mostly made my peace with my views though. I'm unique. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with you either...
I don't know your kin and never claimed to. I described my experience as what I see in my small town I live in. I'm not going out much because I'm responsible in the pandemic but when I have gone to Walmart, the small sample size of guys I've seen with Trump hats look rough as I described. It's a small sample size, anecdotal evidence.
Trump got tens of millions of votes. I am disappointed in America falling for this obvious con man. But just because he's that way it doesn't really say anything about the character of the voters being anything. Well other than being ok with voting for a bad hombre. They must have their reasons. As someone who has paid attention to what he's done and who he is, I don't get it.
I do not agree with you that these people deserve extra power over other Americans just because they live a different life as you describe it. In fact it sounds like they do not need extra power over people struggling to live in cities at all since they don't understand the lives of others. They sound like they are all set as but again and as you say, I don't know them and don't claim to.
I've seen more than enough footage of police brutality to give comments like this any weight.
"I don't care why the EC originated, today it protects millions of people that you seem not to care about. Only the people that live in or near cities matter?"
This works both ways. Why do the votes of a fraction of the population matter more? Do people that live in cities not matter? Is that what you are saying?
@Balrog99 "You're one of the ones who's awfully sure of themself. Just saying. You're one of the least open-minded persons on this forum."
Oh yeah, I went from republican, to libertarian, to independant and supported a political party that was my polar opposite less than 10 years ago because I'm close minded. I come from a heavily conservative background, but i support the LGBT+ community because I'm close minded.
I just corrected someone who said they cannot be judged because someone else cannot know a group of people as well as her. Even though she knows nothing of the other person. Because I'm close minded.
You come off as close-minded to me. Might just be my own impression though (but I doubt it). I'm not asking you to change your views, just asking for a little less vehemence. You have your PoV, others have a different reference point. I'll bet at least 75% of what you want I'd agree with. Let's find a way to get that 75% and agree to disagree with the other 25%. That's all I'm saying...
I'm open to getting rid of the EC now. Let's agree on that at least. It won't be the panacea you think for reasons that @DinoDin explained to me logically. It never occurred to me that there were more conservatives in California than there are in Pennsylvania before. Be careful what you wish for...
If opposing police brutality or not letting people get a pass for enabling Trump is close minded, then call me close minded. Because I sure as heck am not about to support either of those things.
I agree. Exactly why I didnt vote for the Orange Asshole this time.
I understand there's millions of Conservatives in California and New York. Regardless, the people should pick the Prez not some other artificial construct of states. A person's vote should matter.
I suppose if the system changed the battlegrounds would mostly be the cities - where most Americans people live - and the Conservative candidate could basically ignore the country because they'd vote for him anyway.
So maybe the right winger goes more moderate to appeal to the swing states in cities. Maybe the liberal thinks he has the city votes in the bag and broadens his appeal and tries to bleed off some country votes.
I won't mourn Trump losing. Fuck him and the train he rode in on. Too bad I had to vote for somebody I didn't really like but it's not like It was the first time. I lost my virginity when I voted for Dole...
Oh no, show me you know where I came from. Anyone? That is what I was saying. You don't know them, judging comes easy doesn't it?
Agreeing with Black Lives Matter does not make you black. Common sense really, same with lgbtq, doesn't make you help you understand them better. It is the right thing to do, but somehow hillbillies are denied that right. I agree that they are wrong in some... okay, most of their views but that description was not very generous and I called Smeogal out on only that one thing. Should I not have?
Then why do they need you? Why should they adhere to your rules? Could America be great if not for the working class? Who is mining your coal? Who has the timber? Who has the natural resourses that those populated places could not live without? You care about gas prices? There is a redneck working that makes your fuel prices lower. Seriously, oust the rest of the nation that doesn't live in a populated area, they will be grateful and you can enjoy poverty for a while. Who is growing your food? Philadelphia, New York, LA? Maybe it is time we all grow up and understand that we need each other. Wanna know why the dems have struggled so much when their opponents are so totally awful? Because of that statement you made. You actually believe you would be great without them. The populated places are nothing without them. We are not Bahrain or Dubai, you actually have to supply something other than money to get something. Yeah, some of the populated places would survive, if they paid the populated places enough mone to suply them, the rest would crumble. Your argument is no different than saying we could maintain our econemy without the effort of immigrant workers. The EC says that those people and places that you seem not to care about have representation. You want to deny them representation and are appalled that they would dare not be happy with that.
You have seen footage? Ever been there when the lights are flashing? I believe that everyone that thinks they can live without polic... no, not going to go there. If you ever find yourself in that world, send me a postcard, I have never been to hell.
Funny how logic can change people's views sometimes. I'm probably just weird. but maybe I'm not???
The Trump supporter logic on display tonight is so amazing I am almost amused by it. They think all counting should stop where Trump leads, and it should continue wherever he is trailing. Meanwhile, the Biden/Harris camp has been repeating all day one simple phrase "count every vote". Sorta gives you a pretty clear indication of who thinks they're losing and who thinks they are going to prevail. The true ridiculousness of this cult of personality is on full display tonight. They are really letting their freak flag fly.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/mi/antrim-county-population
Edit: There were absolutely 'No' shenanigans in this state. Nothing untoward to even challenge. Probably won't stop Trump from trying though...
The guy who wrote Art of the Deal can't close a deal. ?
P.S. I'm gonna make another meme for North Carolina to prepare for the flip.
Hey now, we fought a war over this and you guys lost.
We surrendered to get Southern Canada (da UP). I'm not complaining since I went to Michigan Tech which would likely have been part of Wisconsin otherwise, but we lost the Mudhens. Not really resolved IMHO... ?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/results-michigan-president.html
Edit: FYI - Wayne County (Detroit environs) is where I live so I'm not complaining about the results per se. Just feeling for the rural folks. I know folks in those rural counties. As bad as the inner-cities are, the rural areas ain't no panacea anymore either. Perhaps the Dems could champion them a bit more. Just a thought...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/politics/black-voters-2020-election-donald-trump-white-nationalism/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/opinions/us-global-image-after-election-night-2020-wierson/index.html
The constitution sets out 3 main forms of representation - for the House, the Senate and the electoral college.
- of those, the one which is most obviously intended to significantly over-represent sparsely populated areas is the Senate - where representation is equal between states regardless of population.
- the representation for the House is, in principle, set equal to population. However, lags in recalculating this (based on the census every 10 years) mean it won't necessarily reflect the latest situation. In addition there is a noticeable bias introduced as a result of population disparities being unable to be fully reflected by whole numbers. In the first census in 1790 the smallest population of the then 13 states (in Delaware) constituted 1.5% of the total US population. With a total House size of 105 there was no problem of small states being rounded up to 1, but there were rounding errors above that. It's unlikely the Founders could have conceived of the extent of population disparity today, where the smallest states are around 0.2% of total population and hence (even with the House at 435 members) would notionally expect less than a single representative. The extent of the rounding errors though are very marginal - all within a few tenths of a percent. California for instance had 11.91% of the population and 12.18% of the seats.
- the electoral college representation is an amalgam of the above systems, being based on the House seats, but then with each state getting an additional 2 representatives. In 1790 that adjustment would have been smaller due to the much greater homogeneity among the states. Delaware and Rhode Island for instance would have gone from 2 out of 105 House seats (a fraction under 2%) to 4 out of 131 electoral college representatives (a fraction over 3%) - giving a 60% uplift in their proportional representation. The impact now is more obvious with the 7 smallest states each getting an uplift of 140%. That effectively gets paid for by the largest states, with California and Texas both taking a 15% hit on their share of the electoral college compared to population.
In principle I can't see any particular problem with not following a system of representation based solely on population. That seems to follow pretty logically from the US being set up originally as a federation of states and not a single homogenous country. These sorts of issues have been discussed quite a bit in the EU, given the way it progressed over time from a collection of totally independent nation states to an entity which has a significant amount of influence over the original nation states. While the larger countries certainly have had far more influence than the smaller ones, the treaty set up recognizes the potential problem of tyranny by the majority. That's why representation in the European Parliament follows the principle of "degressive proportionality" - EU speak for smaller population countries having relatively more representatives
The problem seems to me to be not so much the levels of representation, but how those representatives act. As others have said, the system used by most states of allocating all representatives to the winner of the vote in that state leads to most states being ignored in presidential elections. I suspect that basing representation on a more proportional system would both spread attention more equally across the nation come election time and help mitigate some of the feelings of division and marginalization exhibited by, e.g. liberals in rural areas and conservatives in urban ones.
ABC is middle left but still find the time, as Robert Downey Jr. said it, 'go full retard'. NBC went full and FOX is just trash, CNN is not even news anymore they have become opinion hit piece shows. And Joey Reid calling Judge Clarence Thomas "Uncle Thomas", the same idiot that said russian bots were to blame for her homophobic comments. Guess shes all grown up now and a Queen.
I have found though that in this thread the last few pages and around in IRL that there is more of a racist and bigoted tone coming from people who identify as progressives. If a MAGA hat or a group of gay men and women that are for trump can get you to turn ugly or show your true colors then what are we really fighting for.