I've been sourcing my claims, I feel it is fair to expect the same. Where does it say 100% of Obama's missing children were teenagers?
Although your post wasn't responding to me, I made a similar point. You can find information on age profile for unaccompanied children here. In broad terms about 75% of the total children are in the 15-16 and 17+ categories. Obviously that's not 100%, but no-one has suggested it was. The claim made is that older teenagers are more likely to be able to fend for themselves and thus are likely to make up most of the small minority of children who have disappeared from official view over the years.
Personnel is policy. You can read a lot into what an administration plans to do by who it hires. I knew Trump wouldn't do anything radical because his hires were all basic GOP operatives who are as "deep state" and "part of the swamp" as anyone else. I shouldn't put deep state in quotations really because I think it's self evident that longtime or high ranking government employees can and do act as another branch of the system.
And in that line of reasoning, looks like interventionists will be running the Pentagon.
Woke Imperialism is progressing at full swing. Really makes you feel like you're a part of history when you get to witness the first ever woman-led mass bombing campaigns of poor villages.
The irony of the entire argument is that the only difference in family separation policy between Trump, Obama, and now Biden spans the entirety of the few months in which Trump's new policy was in place before widespread public rejection of it caused him to change it back to what it was. It is those few months- could even be weeks, my memory on it isn't perfect but it was a very short time- which will be the whole of the defense for the existence of the existing policy which does all the exact same things they were condemning as pure evil, and delivered with all the moral fury and righteousness of the most devout believer.
Convinced that after this day of exchange that Greenwald was basically right. As kids continue to be imprisoned in these low quality facilities with questionable ability to meet their needs, the entirety of the moral rhetoric that once surrounded this issue will disappear and it will be entirely forgotten, because it was all bullshit in the first place. Once they have the power to change it, all interest suddenly vanishes and they find the existence of the system perfectly fine.
@WarChiefZeke my wife gets incredibly annoyed by me from time to time because of my habit of always trying to look at both sides of an argument. In this case though I really don't understand why you are maintaining there is no difference between the following:
- a policy that separates a tiny minority of families where parents have committed major crimes and/or are suspected of child abuse.
- a policy that separates 100% of families with the deliberate aim of scaring future potential asylum seekers into not attempting to enter the US (and doesn't even maintain records to allow future reunification).
I realize though that it's possible I have a blind spot here because of how strongly I feel about this policy. Can you help me out by explaining why you think there is no difference?
Or is it just that your view is that the policy of family separation was a temporary aberration (which should now simply be forgotten about) and it's everything else that's much the same? If that's the case I have a bit more sympathy with your view of the situation, though if you look at the information I posted earlier it seems pretty clear to me that there are other significant policy differences over immigration beyond the specific point about family separation.
What I see is a refusal to acknowledge the substantive differences in policy, despite several posters taking the time to patiently write accurate characterizations of that difference.
I actually don't understand the argument being made. Was the Obama administration supposed to just release unaccompanied minors that had been apprehended? What exactly is the prescription being advocated for?
It seems the issue is just being raised to point out a partisan hypocrisy while failing to acknowledge, in the slightest, the substantive differences between the two administrations. Which doesn't seem like a productive thing to inject into discussions here, frankly.
The irony of the entire argument is that the only difference in family separation policy between Trump, Obama, and now Biden spans the entirety of the few months in which Trump's new policy was in place before widespread public rejection of it caused him to change it back to what it was. It is those few months- could even be weeks, my memory on it isn't perfect but it was a very short time- which will be the whole of the defense for the existence of the existing policy which does all the exact same things they were condemning as pure evil, and delivered with all the moral fury and righteousness of the most devout believer.
Convinced that after this day of exchange that Greenwald was basically right. As kids continue to be imprisoned in these low quality facilities with questionable ability to meet their needs, the entirety of the moral rhetoric that once surrounded this issue will disappear and it will be entirely forgotten, because it was all bullshit in the first place. Once they have the power to change it, all interest suddenly vanishes and they find the existence of the system perfectly fine.
@WarChiefZeke my wife gets incredibly annoyed by me from time to time because of my habit of always trying to look at both sides of an argument. In this case though I really don't understand why you are maintaining there is no difference between the following:
- a policy that separates a tiny minority of families where parents have committed major crimes and/or are suspected of child abuse.
- a policy that separates 100% of families with the deliberate aim of scaring future potential asylum seekers into not attempting to enter the US (and doesn't even maintain records to allow future reunification).
I realize though that it's possible I have a blind spot here because of how strongly I feel about this policy. Can you help me out by explaining why you think there is no difference?
Or is it just that your view is that the policy of family separation was a temporary aberration (which should now simply be forgotten about) and it's everything else that's much the same? If that's the case I have a bit more sympathy with your view of the situation, though if you look at the information I posted earlier it seems pretty clear to me that there are other significant policy differences over immigration beyond the specific point about family separation.
I'm not going to argue the little things here because the gist of your post is okay and the details will just obfuscate. To put it simply, if you truthfully can't understand my argument, is that i'm not saying there is no difference, i'm saying the argument of a substantial moral difference between the policies based on these differences is bullshit. So is the argument that you can justify the moral flaws of the existing policy based on it being better than the previous one.
What I don't understand is how you can believe there is a serious moral difference if, in both cases, children are both imprisoned, and lost without investigation. Nobody is arguing that unaccompanied minors and some minors who did come with parents who were under suspicion were imprisoned. Are you against child imprisonment and government mismanagement leading to lost children? Or are you against only this particular group having to suffer through this? Because your every word leads to the latter and none of the former.
Democrats routinely and inaccurately blame Trump for creating “cages” for children. They are actually referring to chain-link fencing inside the McAllen center — Obama’s creation."
This is a mischaracterization. Yes Obama build cages. FOR UNACCOMPANIED MINORS.
Trump separated the children from their parents. That is Trump policy, take a family and separate them.
He had the parents, he has the children. He fucked it up from there, incompetence - he couldn't put them back together after separation.
His administration either through intentional cruelty, neglect, or incompetence lost the connection.
This is far different than a kid showing up ALONE. And you being unable to locate a parent. Maybe the kid ran away or doesn't have a phone number or anything.
With Trump he had the right info, he had the people. No one else had them. He had locked up parent and children.
When Trump's government doesn't get their calls returned, it is evil incompetence. Okay. So what is it when Obama's government doesn't get calls returned? Is that, too, evil incompetence, or is something far more noble?
What is this there is no "returning calls". Who is Trump calling? His own facilities? He has both the parents and the children.
It seems to me like some just dont want to accept that there is a significant difference between a very bad policy that imprisoned unaccompanied minors that crossed the border, and a second policy that was a form of terrorism used to try to prevent anyone from coming across the border (... plus included everything that was bad about the first policy. Worse, technically - since conditions were considerably worse under Trump than Obama).
I am able to recognize why the first was bad, and understand that the second was dramatically worse. It doesnt exonerate the first, but it is a false equivalence to treat them as the same.
Are you against child imprisonment and government mismanagement leading to lost children? Or are you against only this particular group having to suffer through this? Because your every word leads to the latter and none of the former.
I find it helpful to compare it to something we all know is an inherent evil, like genocide. Would anyone seriously believe that "less genocide than the current amount" is a moral position? If something is deeply wrong, especially as deeply wrong as liberals have said it is over the years, the only moral thing to do is end it entirely. Yet, oddly enough, we are satisfied with the "less genocide than the current amount" way of thinking.
This is a mischaracterization. Yes Obama build cages. FOR UNACCOMPANIED MINORS.
Why is it okay to imprison unaccompanied minors and lose them? How is this a substantial increase in moral virtue compared to the Trump policy?
I feel like most people, at best, would say it is less bad, but still very morally wrong. Correct?
And we can criticize someone who does something morally wrong without excusing it on the basis that someone else did something worse, yes?
They did not lose them once they had them did they. They could not locate the parents. Because they never had that the information. Unaccompanied. They came alone.
The Trump administration had both parents and children and then lost track.
Meanwhile in crazy lying grifters town, misinformation for hate and profit continues.
More Trump campaign staffers have covid than documented voter fraud by the way. So if the election was rigged what do you call a higher number of idiot Trump campaign staffers?
Why is it okay to imprison unaccompanied minors and lose them? How is this a substantial increase in moral virtue compared to the Trump policy?
I don't know why you're insisting on misreading what's been written about the issue, but it's not good behavior, I have to say. The Obama administration "lost" children because they released them and those children disappeared from tracking. That's exactly the risk you take when you no longer cage an individual.
So, again, what exactly are you advocating for? Unaccompanied minors are at risk to disappear from the system if you release them and are only checking in to track them. Unaccompanied minors are "in cages" if you keep them in custody.
The important distinction is that the separate children were "lost" because they refused to cooperate with authorities after being released, as you'll read if you check the link above on the Obama-era immigrant kids. The difference here is that the Trump administration caught parents and children together -- and then the government separated them. This included going through the full legal process of deporting the parents while the children remained in the US.
@WarChiefZeke: You've brought up Obama's policies many times in the past, and each time, you've only brought them as a response to criticism of the Trump administration's family separation policy, and only to criticize Trump's critics as hypocritical--you spend much time criticizing Trump's critics, but not Trump or Obama, despite claiming that their policies are equal. You criticize an alleged double standard, but I don't know what your preferred single standard is supposed to be (and apparently I'm not the only one here who still doesn't know your actual stance on the issue itself). I get the feeling that you're more upset about how people talk about family separation than the family separation itself.
And despite your confident predictions about liberals you think will say "what about Trump" to defend a future Biden administration, liberals had the opportunity to do just that from 2008-2016, and they did not. I've never replied to a criticism of the Obama administration by saying "what about Bush," nor can I remember any other liberal doing the same. Same goes for defending Clinton back in 2016.
I can, however, think of a few defenses of Trump that are literally just "what about Obama." I'm responding to one right now.
I personally don't consider Obama and Trump's policies equivalent. I've explained the distinction in the past, but I will explain it again if there's any confusion: under the Obama administration, only folks who were suspected of committing other crimes were separated from their children. Under the Trump administration, all immigrants detained, including legal asylum seekers, were separated from their children, even if no other crime was suspected.
I could also quibble that a sitting president actively hurting people is more deserving of criticism than a previous president who is no longer in office, but the two policies are not in fact the same to begin with: the Trump administration's policy (1) was a blanket policy and (2) it was done without due process of law.
Why is it okay to imprison unaccompanied minors and lose them? How is this a substantial increase in moral virtue compared to the Trump policy?
I don't know why you're insisting on misreading what's been written about the issue, but it's not good behavior, I have to say. The Obama administration "lost" children because they released them and those children disappeared from tracking. That's exactly the risk you take when you no longer cage an individual.
So, again, what exactly are you advocating for? Unaccompanied minors are at risk to disappear from the system if you release them and are only checking in to track them. Unaccompanied minors are "in cages" if you keep them in custody.
If I am misreading the situation by calling the ones Obama lost as missing, then so is anyone saying the same of Trump. The process was exactly the same, determined by exactly the same method, a phone call, and the only arguments presented by your source are her own speculations and opinions which just as easily apply here and now.
Calling something mistaken when it is clearly not so is simply denial on your part. The process was virtually identical but you want new terms and rhetoric to describe it.
The important distinction is that the separate children were "lost" because they refused to cooperate with authorities after being released, as you'll read if you check the link above on the Obama-era immigrant kids. The difference here is that the Trump administration caught parents and children together -- and then the government separated them. This included going through the full legal process of deporting the parents while the children remained in the US.
There is no evidence offered for this whatsoever, beyond what she says she "thinks" happened.
If thoughts alone are evidence to you, I don't know what to tell you. You obviously choose what you want to believe based on what you want to believe and there is no changing that.
And, of course, the same exact argument could be made for the children who went off radar in Trumps case, if we are going to use what we "think" happened. They contacted their own families or someone else they could trust and didn't want to respond to the government. Simple as.
But of course, it utterly predictable fashion, applying any argument or thought process in a neutral manner is virtually off the table.
"MUNOZ: That's exactly who these kids are. Right. So HHS - its job is to place the kids in the least restrictive setting. In the vast majority of cases, those kids had parents in the United States. Most of the time, those parents were also here illegally. So what I think has happened with those missing cases is in many cases those parents and kids have been reunited and they've gone off the grid. They don't want to be contacted by a government agency.
INSKEEP: Wait a minute. When I hear 1,475 kids missing, it sounds like an outrage. Are you telling me I shouldn't be that outraged?
MUNOZ: Well, look, there's always reason to be concerned. This is an agent - a federal agency which placed kids, in most cases, with their own families. That doesn't mean that every placement is terrific, but it's - the most likely case is that these are undocumented families and they don't want contact with the federal government. And you don't necessarily want HHS tracking these families after they've placed their kids because, look, in this administration, you can't necessarily rely upon the authorities not to be using whatever contact they have for purposes of immigration enforcement."
And despite your confident predictions about liberals you think will say "what about Trump" to defend a future Biden administration, liberals had the opportunity to do just that from 2008-2016, and they did not. I've never replied to a criticism of the Obama administration by saying "what about Bush," nor can I remember any other liberal doing the same. Same goes for defending Clinton back in 2016.
I mean my prediction is confident because it's already happening, the hysterical rhetoric is already being memory-holed, the only things that can be said about democratic policy is Trump, Trump, Trump.
We are not in the same political landscape as 2008 and almost anyone can see that.
I said, and I meant, that I would probably be dropping off the radar at some point in the future.
If you can't get enough of the Zeke hot takes, feel free to follow me on twitter. Keep in mind, I criticize Republicans more often than Democrats here, because attacking my audience is what I do.
Again, the fundamental flaw in your comparison is simple. Unaccompanied minors came across the border in 2014. After the government apprehended those kids, *more* of them were united with their families than when they arrived.
After the Trump administration apprehended united families at the border, *fewer* of them were united when the government was done. You seem to be unwilling to admit to this important, but undeniable fact.
I know I'll be excoriated for saying this but I don't care. If people come into our country illegally they should be sent back unless there is some LEGAL reason why they shouldn't. That includes parents and their children. If we should be 'obligated' to take care of them and/or make them citizens, there needs to be a LAW created by Congress and signed by the President (or veto overruled legally by 2/3 majority of Congress). Morality needs to be supplemented by actual law for it to be binding. This moral high ground crap is bullshit until Congress gets off their ass and actually does something. A POTUS can't use arbitrary ececutive orders to bypass a real law in the books...
The 500 kids in regards to the Trump Administration did not just "go off the radar". There was no need of for a "radar" to being with. They were with their parents, they could have stayed with them, could have been detained together. Instead, they made a DELIBERATE decision to ship the kids to all corners of the country. And we know WHY they did this, because, just like with EVERYTHING else in the Trump Administration, they admitted it from their own mouths.
They wanted to separate the kids from the parents to PUNISH the parents. Stephen Miller wanted it. Jeff Sessions wanted it. So that is what they did. It's an issue you've never addressed, in four years. That it was done on purpose, designed to be as cruel as possible, on the off chance it would prevent someone, somewhere from crossing a line on a map and possibly taking some shit job at a poultry plant. As someone just mentioned, it was meant to terrorize, for breaking a law that is slightly more serious than jaywalking by legal standards. Even for the ones who GOT their kids back, it was meant to terrorize. It was basically like chopping off someone's head for stealing a Milky Way from a gas station.
As @semticgod said, nothing in your entire posting history would indicate you actually care about what happened to the parents or the children. The only thing you have ever posted on the subject is either a.) dismissing the seriousness of the situation in the first place or b.) attempting to prove that the Obama Administration did the same thing.
The reason it became a more hot button issue under Trump is two-fold. #1, he made it one of the core planks of his Presidency and bragged about it. The most powerful man in the world says "look at what I'm doing", people look, and you feign shock. #2, and this can't be stressed enough, it was a deliberate act of malice aimed at vulnerable people. They looked at the border crossing/asylum situation, sat down in a room and said "the solution is to take the children from the parents".
I know I'll be excoriated for saying this but I don't care. If people come into our country illegally they should be sent back unless there is some LEGAL reason why they shouldn't. That includes parents and their children. If we should be 'obligated' to take care of them and/or make them citizens, there needs to be a LAW created by Congress and signed by the President (or veto overruled legally by 2/3 majority of Congress). Morality needs to be supplemented by actual law for it to be binding. This moral high ground crap is bullshit until Congress gets off their ass and actually does something. A POTUS can't use arbitrary ececutive orders to bypass a real law in the books...
Yes, a POTUS cannot use executive orders to bypass the law. Which is why immigration cases need to be adjudicated by a court prior to deportation. That's exactly why there was a custody period for these minors 2014 -- where they were first held in a facility and then later released to relatives. While they waited for the legal process to play out. With the lone exception of physically witnessing people crossing a border, you cannot, by law, summarily deport people. Everyone gets their chance in court.
It's worth noting that most "illegal immigrants" are not illegal crossers, but rather people who overstay their visas, i.e. people who received legal entry. Which is exactly why a legal process is so important.
However, there was no legal justification in many cases to separate families during this legal process. That was done intentionally by the Trump administration to deter future immigrants.
I know I'll be excoriated for saying this but I don't care. If people come into our country illegally they should be sent back unless there is some LEGAL reason why they shouldn't. That includes parents and their children. If we should be 'obligated' to take care of them and/or make them citizens, there needs to be a LAW created by Congress and signed by the President (or veto overruled legally by 2/3 majority of Congress). Morality needs to be supplemented by actual law for it to be binding. This moral high ground crap is bullshit until Congress gets off their ass and actually does something. A POTUS can't use arbitrary ececutive orders to bypass a real law in the books...
Oh, I think we've learned that last sentence isn't remotely true whatsoever. And this simply is not about whether these people got to stay in the country. If they had just DEPORTED them TOGETHER none of this would have happened. But alot of parents got sent back to Honduras and their kids were still somewhere in Michigan or Texas. What was the point?? Why was an ounce of money spent on transporting kids AWAY from their parents, who at worst were facing misdemeanor charges??
I know I'll be excoriated for saying this but I don't care. If people come into our country illegally they should be sent back unless there is some LEGAL reason why they shouldn't.
I have always said both parents and children should be turned back together, period. Asylum claims can be processed there as well, though I would basically be rid of it entirely unless the "nearest safe country" rule was strictly enforced. If the U.S wants to do some sort of medical/financial aid mobilization and eventual repatriation directly south of the border with the blessing of the Mexican government I would be all for it.
We have a society with an entire underclass of millions of people who work for no benefits and illegally low wages, hurting both them and the working class alike, and the bipartisan solution is to allow it to continue. It could all easily be solved by ruthless investigation and prosecution of those who hire illegal laborers but Trump couldn't even do that.
Again, the fundamental flaw in your comparison is simple. Unaccompanied minors came across the border in 2014. After the government apprehended those kids, *more* of them were united with their families than when they arrived.
After the Trump administration apprehended united families at the border, *fewer* of them were united when the government was done. You seem to be unwilling to admit to this important, but undeniable fact.
Cool. I am not interested in how you think Trump's policy was worse, believe me, I know. I'm more interested in why you clearly don't care if kids go off radar as long as they came across the border without anyone. Why do the mere thoughts of the policy architect utterly convince you that they are safe as opposed to the ones who didn't answer the call under Trump? Don't you think that even if there was the slightest possibility that something bad happened to them, a phone call is insufficient and it represents negligence on the part of the government to determine the fate of a child by a mere call and pursue no further inquiries even though they are responsible for them being there? It just sounds so obviously wrong to me that i'm stunned that anyone could defend this. I started this topic by talking about Democratic policy and i'm not gonna get roped into yet another of these games of "1,001 ways I can boost my own image by attacking Trump"
The 500 kids in regards to the Trump Administration did not just "go off the radar". There was no need of for a "radar" to being with. They were with their parents, they could have stayed with them, could have been detained together. Instead, they made a DELIBERATE decision to ship the kids to all corners of the country. And we know WHY they did this, because, just like with EVERYTHING else in the Trump Administration, they admitted it from their own mouths.
They wanted to separate the kids from the parents to PUNISH the parents. Stephen Miller wanted it. Jeff Sessions wanted it. So that is what they did. It's an issue you've never addressed, in four years. That it was done on purpose, designed to be as cruel as possible, on the off chance it would prevent someone, somewhere from crossing a line on a map and possibly taking some shit job at a poultry plant. As someone just mentioned, it was meant to terrorize, for breaking a law that is slightly more serious than jaywalking by legal standards. Even for the ones who GOT their kids back, it was meant to terrorize. It was basically like chopping off someone's head for stealing a Milky Way from a gas station.
As @semticgod said, nothing in your entire posting history would indicate you actually care about what happened to the parents or the children. The only thing you have ever posted on the subject is either a.) dismissing the seriousness of the situation in the first place or b.) attempting to prove that the Obama Administration did the same thing.
The reason it became a more hot button issue under Trump is two-fold. #1, he made it one of the core planks of his Presidency and bragged about it. The most powerful man in the world says "look at what I'm doing", people look, and you feign shock. #2, and this can't be stressed enough, it was a deliberate act of malice aimed at vulnerable people. They looked at the border crossing/asylum situation, sat down in a room and said "the solution is to take the children from the parents".
I assume you're referring to Zeke here but I'd like to state again that Congress under Obama could have easily passed actual laws to address this issue while they had control of Congress and POTUS but didn't. In fairness, the Republicans could have too between 2016 and 2018 but they declined to as well. The fault is ultimately with the Democratic Party 2008-2010 since they're the ones that made it a headline issue later and had the chance to address it earlier if they'd really wanted to. The Republicans didn't give a shit about it from the get-go...
About election fraud accusations > I found it on the internet. A compilation of many, picked from codex.
>Woman arrested in Vanderburgh county for pre checking boxes on 400+ ballots https://archive.is/4dfIs
>Butler county Pennsylvania loses untold number of mail in ballots https://archive.is/aYcUd
>Ballots stolen from mail boxes and discarded on roadsides in Washington town https://archive.is/J7zXE
>Group claims 400,000 ballots sent to residents who moved out of state or died in California https://archive.is/IrbaU
>Texas officer & poll watcher testifies on 2020 Houston Voting Fraud Using stacks of drivers licenses , (has photos) https://archive.is/YgPcn
>West Palm Beach residents receive duplicate ballots and ballots for dead relatives https://archive.is/eGO3T
>Pennsylvania postal employee on leave and now fired after bags of mail discovered outside of home put out for trash pickup https://archive.is/nU32I
>25,263 ballots rejected in Colorado primary https://archive.is/hdlXg
>Double absentee ballots sent to residents in Henrico county https://archive.is/5ubBL
>Pa rejects 336,000 duplicate ballot requests 34,000 rejected for other reasons . Many voters request ballots up to 11 times https://archive.is/S2WSS
>Mecklenburg residents receiving double ballots due to labelling glitch https://archive.is/nEDFx
>San Mateo residents receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/PvLTU
>Multiple absentee ballot applications showing up at Flint Michigan homes https://archive.is/ieaho
>Florida man arrested for obtaining dead wife's ballot and forging signature to "test the system" https://archive.is/0nASP
>Election officials ask voters to not disinfect their mail in ballots as handfulls have already arrived destroyed and unable to be tabulated https://archive.is/GzEIp
>400 duplicate ballots sent to local voters in Richmond https://archive.is/dmU3I
>Duplicate ballots sent to "some" in North Carolina. How many? Who knows. https://archive.is/cJHrU
>Placer county residents receiving duplicate ballots https://archive.is/49s9J
>Bay area voters receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/MVH4l
>USPS confirms missing ballots, never made it to residents of Seminole county. How many? Who knows https://archive.is/w7xDd
>Board of elections resends 99,000+ ballots in Brooklyn . Officials worry numerous originals already filled out and sent off https://archive.is/2pnX1
>50,000 ballots in Ohio sent to wrong addresses https://archive.is/3zQti
>500,000 ballots in Virginia labelled with wrong return address https://archive.is/qdAge
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots in pittsburg Allegheny county https://archive.is/aiPzw
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots to Needham town residents https://archive.is/H7QpL
>Detroit elections, where 72% of absentee votes do not match registered voters https://archive.is/1SSGK
>80,000 ballots dissappeared in baltimore https://archive.is/dZnqb
>New York voting official warns people will use dead people to vote, and a few have https://archive.is/ZwA36
>Michigan secretary misprinted military absentee ballots . 400 already issued https://archive.is/aG87n
>Mail in ballots found in road ditch in Wisconsin https://archive.is/nCQLH
>4 officials arrested in ballot harvesting scheme https://archive.is/DWFlj
>9 military mail in ballots thrown in dumpster in PA https://archive.is/EDBm8
>134 felony voter fraud charges announced in Dem primary https://archive.is/7eJkz
>New Yorkers receiving ballots with wrong names and adresses https://archive.is/jd65P
>Queens voters receiving military ballots https://archive.is/YLIoB
>Sun sentinel detailing Florida voting fraud https://archive.is/YRUQ1
>Ballot harvesting scam exposed in minneapolis https://archive.is/flFsD
About election fraud accusations > I found it on the internet. A compilation of many, picked from codex.
>Woman arrested in Vanderburgh county for pre checking boxes on 400+ ballots https://archive.is/4dfIs
>Butler county Pennsylvania loses untold number of mail in ballots https://archive.is/aYcUd
>Ballots stolen from mail boxes and discarded on roadsides in Washington town https://archive.is/J7zXE
>Group claims 400,000 ballots sent to residents who moved out of state or died in California https://archive.is/IrbaU
>Texas officer & poll watcher testifies on 2020 Houston Voting Fraud Using stacks of drivers licenses , (has photos) https://archive.is/YgPcn
>West Palm Beach residents receive duplicate ballots and ballots for dead relatives https://archive.is/eGO3T
>Pennsylvania postal employee on leave and now fired after bags of mail discovered outside of home put out for trash pickup https://archive.is/nU32I
>25,263 ballots rejected in Colorado primary https://archive.is/hdlXg
>Double absentee ballots sent to residents in Henrico county https://archive.is/5ubBL
>Pa rejects 336,000 duplicate ballot requests 34,000 rejected for other reasons . Many voters request ballots up to 11 times https://archive.is/S2WSS
>Mecklenburg residents receiving double ballots due to labelling glitch https://archive.is/nEDFx
>San Mateo residents receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/PvLTU
>Multiple absentee ballot applications showing up at Flint Michigan homes https://archive.is/ieaho
>Florida man arrested for obtaining dead wife's ballot and forging signature to "test the system" https://archive.is/0nASP
>Election officials ask voters to not disinfect their mail in ballots as handfulls have already arrived destroyed and unable to be tabulated https://archive.is/GzEIp
>400 duplicate ballots sent to local voters in Richmond https://archive.is/dmU3I
>Duplicate ballots sent to "some" in North Carolina. How many? Who knows. https://archive.is/cJHrU
>Placer county residents receiving duplicate ballots https://archive.is/49s9J
>Bay area voters receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/MVH4l
>USPS confirms missing ballots, never made it to residents of Seminole county. How many? Who knows https://archive.is/w7xDd
>Board of elections resends 99,000+ ballots in Brooklyn . Officials worry numerous originals already filled out and sent off https://archive.is/2pnX1
>50,000 ballots in Ohio sent to wrong addresses https://archive.is/3zQti
>500,000 ballots in Virginia labelled with wrong return address https://archive.is/qdAge
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots in pittsburg Allegheny county https://archive.is/aiPzw
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots to Needham town residents https://archive.is/H7QpL
>Detroit elections, where 72% of absentee votes do not match registered voters https://archive.is/1SSGK
>80,000 ballots dissappeared in baltimore https://archive.is/dZnqb
>New York voting official warns people will use dead people to vote, and a few have https://archive.is/ZwA36
>Michigan secretary misprinted military absentee ballots . 400 already issued https://archive.is/aG87n
>Mail in ballots found in road ditch in Wisconsin https://archive.is/nCQLH
>4 officials arrested in ballot harvesting scheme https://archive.is/DWFlj
>9 military mail in ballots thrown in dumpster in PA https://archive.is/EDBm8
>134 felony voter fraud charges announced in Dem primary https://archive.is/7eJkz
>New Yorkers receiving ballots with wrong names and adresses https://archive.is/jd65P
>Queens voters receiving military ballots https://archive.is/YLIoB
>Sun sentinel detailing Florida voting fraud https://archive.is/YRUQ1
>Ballot harvesting scam exposed in minneapolis https://archive.is/flFsD
Total number of fraudulent votes = not enough to overturn the election. Period...
Cool. I am not interested in how you think Trump's policy was worse, believe me, I know. I'm more interested in why you clearly don't care if kids go off radar as long as they came across the border without anyone. Why do the mere thoughts of the policy architect utterly convince you that they are safe as opposed to the ones who didn't answer the call under Trump? Don't you think that even if there was the slightest possibility that something bad happened to them, a phone call is insufficient and it represents negligence on the part of the government to determine the fate of a child by a mere call and pursue no further inquiries even though they are responsible for them being there? It just sounds so obviously wrong to me that i'm stunned that anyone could defend this. I started this topic by talking about Democratic policy and i'm not gonna get roped into yet another of these games of "1,001 ways I can boost my own image by attacking Trump"
Again, it's not worse. It's not comparable. That's the problem. And everyone here has told you as much, with a saintly patience and yet you are refusing to engage in discussion. Instead you are just barking at us.
I suggest maybe you take some time to cool off. I know when your preferred candidate loses an election it can be hard. But imo you're not participating in the discussions on these threads in the same way that you participated in them prior to the election. There's clearly a desire to "own the libs" as opposed to "discuss with the libs". This is a sincere suggestion.
You can criticize the Obama policy for failing to do *enough* to help the kids. But his administration was trying to balance enforcing immigration law and humanitarian interests while having to deal with an unprecedented surge of a peculiar type of immigrant. One that required special care, care that the immigration offices did not have the resources to handle. This idea that his policy should have been perfect carries with it the unspoken assumption that ICE under Obama had infinite resources.
Again, I don't think his policy was optimal. But it wasn't a policy of intentionally trying to make things worse for these immigrants. It was a policy borne of having insufficient resources for an unexpected problems.
And again, at the end of the day, the net number of united immigrant families was higher when the Obama administration processed immigrants. The net number was lower with the Trump policy. And the Trump policy was designed with the intent of punishing families and thus dissuading future immigration.
Frankly this discussion reminds me of an earlier one about transwoman using public restrooms, where some posters wanted to argue against it without having to own the logical consequences of what that would mean. I still don't understand how you can argue against the Obama policy without addressing the difficult realworld challenges of the issue.
I know I'll be excoriated for saying this but I don't care. If people come into our country illegally they should be sent back unless there is some LEGAL reason why they shouldn't. That includes parents and their children. If we should be 'obligated' to take care of them and/or make them citizens, there needs to be a LAW created by Congress and signed by the President (or veto overruled legally by 2/3 majority of Congress). Morality needs to be supplemented by actual law for it to be binding. This moral high ground crap is bullshit until Congress gets off their ass and actually does something. A POTUS can't use arbitrary ececutive orders to bypass a real law in the books...
Oh, I think we've learned that last sentence isn't remotely true whatsoever. And this simply is not about whether these people got to stay in the country. If they had just DEPORTED them TOGETHER none of this would have happened. But alot of parents got sent back to Honduras and their kids were still somewhere in Michigan or Texas. What was the point?? Why was an ounce of money spent on transporting kids AWAY from their parents, who at worst were facing misdemeanor charges??
If the executive order is a violation of an actual law then it needs to pursued in the courts. Was it?
About election fraud accusations > I found it on the internet. A compilation of many, picked from codex.
>Woman arrested in Vanderburgh county for pre checking boxes on 400+ ballots https://archive.is/4dfIs
>Butler county Pennsylvania loses untold number of mail in ballots https://archive.is/aYcUd
>Ballots stolen from mail boxes and discarded on roadsides in Washington town https://archive.is/J7zXE
>Group claims 400,000 ballots sent to residents who moved out of state or died in California https://archive.is/IrbaU
>Texas officer & poll watcher testifies on 2020 Houston Voting Fraud Using stacks of drivers licenses , (has photos) https://archive.is/YgPcn
>West Palm Beach residents receive duplicate ballots and ballots for dead relatives https://archive.is/eGO3T
>Pennsylvania postal employee on leave and now fired after bags of mail discovered outside of home put out for trash pickup https://archive.is/nU32I
>25,263 ballots rejected in Colorado primary https://archive.is/hdlXg
>Double absentee ballots sent to residents in Henrico county https://archive.is/5ubBL
>Pa rejects 336,000 duplicate ballot requests 34,000 rejected for other reasons . Many voters request ballots up to 11 times https://archive.is/S2WSS
>Mecklenburg residents receiving double ballots due to labelling glitch https://archive.is/nEDFx
>San Mateo residents receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/PvLTU
>Multiple absentee ballot applications showing up at Flint Michigan homes https://archive.is/ieaho
>Florida man arrested for obtaining dead wife's ballot and forging signature to "test the system" https://archive.is/0nASP
>Election officials ask voters to not disinfect their mail in ballots as handfulls have already arrived destroyed and unable to be tabulated https://archive.is/GzEIp
>400 duplicate ballots sent to local voters in Richmond https://archive.is/dmU3I
>Duplicate ballots sent to "some" in North Carolina. How many? Who knows. https://archive.is/cJHrU
>Placer county residents receiving duplicate ballots https://archive.is/49s9J
>Bay area voters receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/MVH4l
>USPS confirms missing ballots, never made it to residents of Seminole county. How many? Who knows https://archive.is/w7xDd
>Board of elections resends 99,000+ ballots in Brooklyn . Officials worry numerous originals already filled out and sent off https://archive.is/2pnX1
>50,000 ballots in Ohio sent to wrong addresses https://archive.is/3zQti
>500,000 ballots in Virginia labelled with wrong return address https://archive.is/qdAge
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots in pittsburg Allegheny county https://archive.is/aiPzw
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots to Needham town residents https://archive.is/H7QpL
>Detroit elections, where 72% of absentee votes do not match registered voters https://archive.is/1SSGK
>80,000 ballots dissappeared in baltimore https://archive.is/dZnqb
>New York voting official warns people will use dead people to vote, and a few have https://archive.is/ZwA36
>Michigan secretary misprinted military absentee ballots . 400 already issued https://archive.is/aG87n
>Mail in ballots found in road ditch in Wisconsin https://archive.is/nCQLH
>4 officials arrested in ballot harvesting scheme https://archive.is/DWFlj
>9 military mail in ballots thrown in dumpster in PA https://archive.is/EDBm8
>134 felony voter fraud charges announced in Dem primary https://archive.is/7eJkz
>New Yorkers receiving ballots with wrong names and adresses https://archive.is/jd65P
>Queens voters receiving military ballots https://archive.is/YLIoB
>Sun sentinel detailing Florida voting fraud https://archive.is/YRUQ1
>Ballot harvesting scam exposed in minneapolis https://archive.is/flFsD
Total number of fraudulent votes = not enough to overturn the election. Period...
First was "allegations with no evidence" and "there was no fraud"
Now that people are finding fraudulent votes, is "not enough to overturn the election"
About election fraud accusations > I found it on the internet. A compilation of many, picked from codex.
>Woman arrested in Vanderburgh county for pre checking boxes on 400+ ballots https://archive.is/4dfIs
>Butler county Pennsylvania loses untold number of mail in ballots https://archive.is/aYcUd
>Ballots stolen from mail boxes and discarded on roadsides in Washington town https://archive.is/J7zXE
>Group claims 400,000 ballots sent to residents who moved out of state or died in California https://archive.is/IrbaU
>Texas officer & poll watcher testifies on 2020 Houston Voting Fraud Using stacks of drivers licenses , (has photos) https://archive.is/YgPcn
>West Palm Beach residents receive duplicate ballots and ballots for dead relatives https://archive.is/eGO3T
>Pennsylvania postal employee on leave and now fired after bags of mail discovered outside of home put out for trash pickup https://archive.is/nU32I
>25,263 ballots rejected in Colorado primary https://archive.is/hdlXg
>Double absentee ballots sent to residents in Henrico county https://archive.is/5ubBL
>Pa rejects 336,000 duplicate ballot requests 34,000 rejected for other reasons . Many voters request ballots up to 11 times https://archive.is/S2WSS
>Mecklenburg residents receiving double ballots due to labelling glitch https://archive.is/nEDFx
>San Mateo residents receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/PvLTU
>Multiple absentee ballot applications showing up at Flint Michigan homes https://archive.is/ieaho
>Florida man arrested for obtaining dead wife's ballot and forging signature to "test the system" https://archive.is/0nASP
>Election officials ask voters to not disinfect their mail in ballots as handfulls have already arrived destroyed and unable to be tabulated https://archive.is/GzEIp
>400 duplicate ballots sent to local voters in Richmond https://archive.is/dmU3I
>Duplicate ballots sent to "some" in North Carolina. How many? Who knows. https://archive.is/cJHrU
>Placer county residents receiving duplicate ballots https://archive.is/49s9J
>Bay area voters receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/MVH4l
>USPS confirms missing ballots, never made it to residents of Seminole county. How many? Who knows https://archive.is/w7xDd
>Board of elections resends 99,000+ ballots in Brooklyn . Officials worry numerous originals already filled out and sent off https://archive.is/2pnX1
>50,000 ballots in Ohio sent to wrong addresses https://archive.is/3zQti
>500,000 ballots in Virginia labelled with wrong return address https://archive.is/qdAge
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots in pittsburg Allegheny county https://archive.is/aiPzw
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots to Needham town residents https://archive.is/H7QpL
>Detroit elections, where 72% of absentee votes do not match registered voters https://archive.is/1SSGK
>80,000 ballots dissappeared in baltimore https://archive.is/dZnqb
>New York voting official warns people will use dead people to vote, and a few have https://archive.is/ZwA36
>Michigan secretary misprinted military absentee ballots . 400 already issued https://archive.is/aG87n
>Mail in ballots found in road ditch in Wisconsin https://archive.is/nCQLH
>4 officials arrested in ballot harvesting scheme https://archive.is/DWFlj
>9 military mail in ballots thrown in dumpster in PA https://archive.is/EDBm8
>134 felony voter fraud charges announced in Dem primary https://archive.is/7eJkz
>New Yorkers receiving ballots with wrong names and adresses https://archive.is/jd65P
>Queens voters receiving military ballots https://archive.is/YLIoB
>Sun sentinel detailing Florida voting fraud https://archive.is/YRUQ1
>Ballot harvesting scam exposed in minneapolis https://archive.is/flFsD
Total number of fraudulent votes = not enough to overturn the election. Period...
First was "allegations with no evidence" and "there was no fraud"
Now that people are finding fraudulent votes, is "not enough to overturn the election"
What is the next step?
Declaring that Trump is grasping at straws and wasting our time...
To the issue of Democrats addressing immigration immediately in 2009. I mean, look, you (historically) only get the first two years to push a legislative agenda before you lose Congress. Yeah, they COULD have focused on the issue that MOST fired up the other side into a frenzy, but not only would I not have suggested it, I would have advised it was political suicide. The ONLY time to seriously address the issue was with Republicans in control of one branch, because they simply care about it more.
For the record, the ONE good thing W. pushed for was immigration reform, and his own party told him to go fly a kite, just like they did to Obama.
About election fraud accusations > I found it on the internet. A compilation of many, picked from codex.
>Woman arrested in Vanderburgh county for pre checking boxes on 400+ ballots https://archive.is/4dfIs
>Butler county Pennsylvania loses untold number of mail in ballots https://archive.is/aYcUd
>Ballots stolen from mail boxes and discarded on roadsides in Washington town https://archive.is/J7zXE
>Group claims 400,000 ballots sent to residents who moved out of state or died in California https://archive.is/IrbaU
>Texas officer & poll watcher testifies on 2020 Houston Voting Fraud Using stacks of drivers licenses , (has photos) https://archive.is/YgPcn
>West Palm Beach residents receive duplicate ballots and ballots for dead relatives https://archive.is/eGO3T
>Pennsylvania postal employee on leave and now fired after bags of mail discovered outside of home put out for trash pickup https://archive.is/nU32I
>25,263 ballots rejected in Colorado primary https://archive.is/hdlXg
>Double absentee ballots sent to residents in Henrico county https://archive.is/5ubBL
>Pa rejects 336,000 duplicate ballot requests 34,000 rejected for other reasons . Many voters request ballots up to 11 times https://archive.is/S2WSS
>Mecklenburg residents receiving double ballots due to labelling glitch https://archive.is/nEDFx
>San Mateo residents receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/PvLTU
>Multiple absentee ballot applications showing up at Flint Michigan homes https://archive.is/ieaho
>Florida man arrested for obtaining dead wife's ballot and forging signature to "test the system" https://archive.is/0nASP
>Election officials ask voters to not disinfect their mail in ballots as handfulls have already arrived destroyed and unable to be tabulated https://archive.is/GzEIp
>400 duplicate ballots sent to local voters in Richmond https://archive.is/dmU3I
>Duplicate ballots sent to "some" in North Carolina. How many? Who knows. https://archive.is/cJHrU
>Placer county residents receiving duplicate ballots https://archive.is/49s9J
>Bay area voters receive multiple ballots https://archive.is/MVH4l
>USPS confirms missing ballots, never made it to residents of Seminole county. How many? Who knows https://archive.is/w7xDd
>Board of elections resends 99,000+ ballots in Brooklyn . Officials worry numerous originals already filled out and sent off https://archive.is/2pnX1
>50,000 ballots in Ohio sent to wrong addresses https://archive.is/3zQti
>500,000 ballots in Virginia labelled with wrong return address https://archive.is/qdAge
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots in pittsburg Allegheny county https://archive.is/aiPzw
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots to Needham town residents https://archive.is/H7QpL
>Detroit elections, where 72% of absentee votes do not match registered voters https://archive.is/1SSGK
>80,000 ballots dissappeared in baltimore https://archive.is/dZnqb
>New York voting official warns people will use dead people to vote, and a few have https://archive.is/ZwA36
>Michigan secretary misprinted military absentee ballots . 400 already issued https://archive.is/aG87n
>Mail in ballots found in road ditch in Wisconsin https://archive.is/nCQLH
>4 officials arrested in ballot harvesting scheme https://archive.is/DWFlj
>9 military mail in ballots thrown in dumpster in PA https://archive.is/EDBm8
>134 felony voter fraud charges announced in Dem primary https://archive.is/7eJkz
>New Yorkers receiving ballots with wrong names and adresses https://archive.is/jd65P
>Queens voters receiving military ballots https://archive.is/YLIoB
>Sun sentinel detailing Florida voting fraud https://archive.is/YRUQ1
>Ballot harvesting scam exposed in minneapolis https://archive.is/flFsD
Total number of fraudulent votes = not enough to overturn the election. Period...
First was "allegations with no evidence" and "there was no fraud"
Now that people are finding fraudulent votes, is "not enough to overturn the election"
What is the next step?
Well - I dont have the time to go through these necessarily. First - just citing an online article doesnt constitute evidence.
Second - I clicked on the bottom one since I recognized the story: It's the Project Veritas attempt to smear Ilhan Omar. Project Veritas is known for manipulating facts and creating false stories with them. IIRC, the Ilhan Omar ballot harvesting thing has since been proven totally false (I believe the guy in the video has since admitted he was paid of Project Veritas to lie).
So consider that of the group of links you posted, many (or all) of them are either flase or at least unsubstantiated.
Mistakes do happen in elections. The whole glitch thing in Michigan is an example of a mistake. It was discovered and corrected. No one has been able to prove (or even meaningfully argue, to my knowledge) that the votes were glitched out intentionally.
It's *(hard* to steal an election without leaving a paper trail. If election fraud was widespread enough to flip the election, it would be very hard to keep that a secret. The fact that almost no stories are being reported upon by investigative journalists with a history of ethical investigation should say something.
Comments
Although your post wasn't responding to me, I made a similar point. You can find information on age profile for unaccompanied children here. In broad terms about 75% of the total children are in the 15-16 and 17+ categories. Obviously that's not 100%, but no-one has suggested it was. The claim made is that older teenagers are more likely to be able to fend for themselves and thus are likely to make up most of the small minority of children who have disappeared from official view over the years.
Personnel is policy. You can read a lot into what an administration plans to do by who it hires. I knew Trump wouldn't do anything radical because his hires were all basic GOP operatives who are as "deep state" and "part of the swamp" as anyone else. I shouldn't put deep state in quotations really because I think it's self evident that longtime or high ranking government employees can and do act as another branch of the system.
And in that line of reasoning, looks like interventionists will be running the Pentagon.
Woke Imperialism is progressing at full swing. Really makes you feel like you're a part of history when you get to witness the first ever woman-led mass bombing campaigns of poor villages.
@WarChiefZeke my wife gets incredibly annoyed by me from time to time because of my habit of always trying to look at both sides of an argument. In this case though I really don't understand why you are maintaining there is no difference between the following:
- a policy that separates a tiny minority of families where parents have committed major crimes and/or are suspected of child abuse.
- a policy that separates 100% of families with the deliberate aim of scaring future potential asylum seekers into not attempting to enter the US (and doesn't even maintain records to allow future reunification).
I realize though that it's possible I have a blind spot here because of how strongly I feel about this policy. Can you help me out by explaining why you think there is no difference?
Or is it just that your view is that the policy of family separation was a temporary aberration (which should now simply be forgotten about) and it's everything else that's much the same? If that's the case I have a bit more sympathy with your view of the situation, though if you look at the information I posted earlier it seems pretty clear to me that there are other significant policy differences over immigration beyond the specific point about family separation.
I actually don't understand the argument being made. Was the Obama administration supposed to just release unaccompanied minors that had been apprehended? What exactly is the prescription being advocated for?
It seems the issue is just being raised to point out a partisan hypocrisy while failing to acknowledge, in the slightest, the substantive differences between the two administrations. Which doesn't seem like a productive thing to inject into discussions here, frankly.
I'm not going to argue the little things here because the gist of your post is okay and the details will just obfuscate. To put it simply, if you truthfully can't understand my argument, is that i'm not saying there is no difference, i'm saying the argument of a substantial moral difference between the policies based on these differences is bullshit. So is the argument that you can justify the moral flaws of the existing policy based on it being better than the previous one.
What I don't understand is how you can believe there is a serious moral difference if, in both cases, children are both imprisoned, and lost without investigation. Nobody is arguing that unaccompanied minors and some minors who did come with parents who were under suspicion were imprisoned. Are you against child imprisonment and government mismanagement leading to lost children? Or are you against only this particular group having to suffer through this? Because your every word leads to the latter and none of the former.
This is a mischaracterization. Yes Obama build cages. FOR UNACCOMPANIED MINORS.
Trump separated the children from their parents. That is Trump policy, take a family and separate them.
He had the parents, he has the children. He fucked it up from there, incompetence - he couldn't put them back together after separation.
His administration either through intentional cruelty, neglect, or incompetence lost the connection.
This is far different than a kid showing up ALONE. And you being unable to locate a parent. Maybe the kid ran away or doesn't have a phone number or anything.
With Trump he had the right info, he had the people. No one else had them. He had locked up parent and children.
What is this there is no "returning calls". Who is Trump calling? His own facilities? He has both the parents and the children.
Why is it okay to imprison unaccompanied minors and lose them? How is this a substantial increase in moral virtue compared to the Trump policy?
I feel like most people, at best, would say it is less bad, but still very morally wrong. Correct?
And we can criticize someone who does something morally wrong without excusing it on the basis that someone else did something worse, yes?
I am able to recognize why the first was bad, and understand that the second was dramatically worse. It doesnt exonerate the first, but it is a false equivalence to treat them as the same.
I find it helpful to compare it to something we all know is an inherent evil, like genocide. Would anyone seriously believe that "less genocide than the current amount" is a moral position? If something is deeply wrong, especially as deeply wrong as liberals have said it is over the years, the only moral thing to do is end it entirely. Yet, oddly enough, we are satisfied with the "less genocide than the current amount" way of thinking.
They did not lose them once they had them did they. They could not locate the parents. Because they never had that the information. Unaccompanied. They came alone.
The Trump administration had both parents and children and then lost track.
Meanwhile in crazy lying grifters town, misinformation for hate and profit continues.
More Trump campaign staffers have covid than documented voter fraud by the way. So if the election was rigged what do you call a higher number of idiot Trump campaign staffers?
I don't know why you're insisting on misreading what's been written about the issue, but it's not good behavior, I have to say. The Obama administration "lost" children because they released them and those children disappeared from tracking. That's exactly the risk you take when you no longer cage an individual.
So, again, what exactly are you advocating for? Unaccompanied minors are at risk to disappear from the system if you release them and are only checking in to track them. Unaccompanied minors are "in cages" if you keep them in custody.
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/29/615079848/following-up-on-1-500-missing-immigrant-children-in-the-u-s
That interview breaks down the issue.
The important distinction is that the separate children were "lost" because they refused to cooperate with authorities after being released, as you'll read if you check the link above on the Obama-era immigrant kids. The difference here is that the Trump administration caught parents and children together -- and then the government separated them. This included going through the full legal process of deporting the parents while the children remained in the US.
And despite your confident predictions about liberals you think will say "what about Trump" to defend a future Biden administration, liberals had the opportunity to do just that from 2008-2016, and they did not. I've never replied to a criticism of the Obama administration by saying "what about Bush," nor can I remember any other liberal doing the same. Same goes for defending Clinton back in 2016.
I can, however, think of a few defenses of Trump that are literally just "what about Obama." I'm responding to one right now.
I personally don't consider Obama and Trump's policies equivalent. I've explained the distinction in the past, but I will explain it again if there's any confusion: under the Obama administration, only folks who were suspected of committing other crimes were separated from their children. Under the Trump administration, all immigrants detained, including legal asylum seekers, were separated from their children, even if no other crime was suspected.
I could also quibble that a sitting president actively hurting people is more deserving of criticism than a previous president who is no longer in office, but the two policies are not in fact the same to begin with: the Trump administration's policy (1) was a blanket policy and (2) it was done without due process of law.
If I am misreading the situation by calling the ones Obama lost as missing, then so is anyone saying the same of Trump. The process was exactly the same, determined by exactly the same method, a phone call, and the only arguments presented by your source are her own speculations and opinions which just as easily apply here and now.
Calling something mistaken when it is clearly not so is simply denial on your part. The process was virtually identical but you want new terms and rhetoric to describe it.
There is no evidence offered for this whatsoever, beyond what she says she "thinks" happened.
If thoughts alone are evidence to you, I don't know what to tell you. You obviously choose what you want to believe based on what you want to believe and there is no changing that.
And, of course, the same exact argument could be made for the children who went off radar in Trumps case, if we are going to use what we "think" happened. They contacted their own families or someone else they could trust and didn't want to respond to the government. Simple as.
But of course, it utterly predictable fashion, applying any argument or thought process in a neutral manner is virtually off the table.
"MUNOZ: That's exactly who these kids are. Right. So HHS - its job is to place the kids in the least restrictive setting. In the vast majority of cases, those kids had parents in the United States. Most of the time, those parents were also here illegally. So what I think has happened with those missing cases is in many cases those parents and kids have been reunited and they've gone off the grid. They don't want to be contacted by a government agency.
INSKEEP: Wait a minute. When I hear 1,475 kids missing, it sounds like an outrage. Are you telling me I shouldn't be that outraged?
MUNOZ: Well, look, there's always reason to be concerned. This is an agent - a federal agency which placed kids, in most cases, with their own families. That doesn't mean that every placement is terrific, but it's - the most likely case is that these are undocumented families and they don't want contact with the federal government. And you don't necessarily want HHS tracking these families after they've placed their kids because, look, in this administration, you can't necessarily rely upon the authorities not to be using whatever contact they have for purposes of immigration enforcement."
I mean my prediction is confident because it's already happening, the hysterical rhetoric is already being memory-holed, the only things that can be said about democratic policy is Trump, Trump, Trump.
We are not in the same political landscape as 2008 and almost anyone can see that.
If you can't get enough of the Zeke hot takes, feel free to follow me on twitter. Keep in mind, I criticize Republicans more often than Democrats here, because attacking my audience is what I do.
After the Trump administration apprehended united families at the border, *fewer* of them were united when the government was done. You seem to be unwilling to admit to this important, but undeniable fact.
They wanted to separate the kids from the parents to PUNISH the parents. Stephen Miller wanted it. Jeff Sessions wanted it. So that is what they did. It's an issue you've never addressed, in four years. That it was done on purpose, designed to be as cruel as possible, on the off chance it would prevent someone, somewhere from crossing a line on a map and possibly taking some shit job at a poultry plant. As someone just mentioned, it was meant to terrorize, for breaking a law that is slightly more serious than jaywalking by legal standards. Even for the ones who GOT their kids back, it was meant to terrorize. It was basically like chopping off someone's head for stealing a Milky Way from a gas station.
As @semticgod said, nothing in your entire posting history would indicate you actually care about what happened to the parents or the children. The only thing you have ever posted on the subject is either a.) dismissing the seriousness of the situation in the first place or b.) attempting to prove that the Obama Administration did the same thing.
The reason it became a more hot button issue under Trump is two-fold. #1, he made it one of the core planks of his Presidency and bragged about it. The most powerful man in the world says "look at what I'm doing", people look, and you feign shock. #2, and this can't be stressed enough, it was a deliberate act of malice aimed at vulnerable people. They looked at the border crossing/asylum situation, sat down in a room and said "the solution is to take the children from the parents".
Yes, a POTUS cannot use executive orders to bypass the law. Which is why immigration cases need to be adjudicated by a court prior to deportation. That's exactly why there was a custody period for these minors 2014 -- where they were first held in a facility and then later released to relatives. While they waited for the legal process to play out. With the lone exception of physically witnessing people crossing a border, you cannot, by law, summarily deport people. Everyone gets their chance in court.
It's worth noting that most "illegal immigrants" are not illegal crossers, but rather people who overstay their visas, i.e. people who received legal entry. Which is exactly why a legal process is so important.
However, there was no legal justification in many cases to separate families during this legal process. That was done intentionally by the Trump administration to deter future immigrants.
Oh, I think we've learned that last sentence isn't remotely true whatsoever. And this simply is not about whether these people got to stay in the country. If they had just DEPORTED them TOGETHER none of this would have happened. But alot of parents got sent back to Honduras and their kids were still somewhere in Michigan or Texas. What was the point?? Why was an ounce of money spent on transporting kids AWAY from their parents, who at worst were facing misdemeanor charges??
I have always said both parents and children should be turned back together, period. Asylum claims can be processed there as well, though I would basically be rid of it entirely unless the "nearest safe country" rule was strictly enforced. If the U.S wants to do some sort of medical/financial aid mobilization and eventual repatriation directly south of the border with the blessing of the Mexican government I would be all for it.
We have a society with an entire underclass of millions of people who work for no benefits and illegally low wages, hurting both them and the working class alike, and the bipartisan solution is to allow it to continue. It could all easily be solved by ruthless investigation and prosecution of those who hire illegal laborers but Trump couldn't even do that.
Cool. I am not interested in how you think Trump's policy was worse, believe me, I know. I'm more interested in why you clearly don't care if kids go off radar as long as they came across the border without anyone. Why do the mere thoughts of the policy architect utterly convince you that they are safe as opposed to the ones who didn't answer the call under Trump? Don't you think that even if there was the slightest possibility that something bad happened to them, a phone call is insufficient and it represents negligence on the part of the government to determine the fate of a child by a mere call and pursue no further inquiries even though they are responsible for them being there? It just sounds so obviously wrong to me that i'm stunned that anyone could defend this. I started this topic by talking about Democratic policy and i'm not gonna get roped into yet another of these games of "1,001 ways I can boost my own image by attacking Trump"
I assume you're referring to Zeke here but I'd like to state again that Congress under Obama could have easily passed actual laws to address this issue while they had control of Congress and POTUS but didn't. In fairness, the Republicans could have too between 2016 and 2018 but they declined to as well. The fault is ultimately with the Democratic Party 2008-2010 since they're the ones that made it a headline issue later and had the chance to address it earlier if they'd really wanted to. The Republicans didn't give a shit about it from the get-go...
>Woman arrested in Vanderburgh county for pre checking boxes on 400+ ballots
https://archive.is/4dfIs
>Butler county Pennsylvania loses untold number of mail in ballots
https://archive.is/aYcUd
>Ballots stolen from mail boxes and discarded on roadsides in Washington town
https://archive.is/J7zXE
>Group claims 400,000 ballots sent to residents who moved out of state or died in California
https://archive.is/IrbaU
>Texas officer & poll watcher testifies on 2020 Houston Voting Fraud Using stacks of drivers licenses , (has photos)
https://archive.is/YgPcn
>West Palm Beach residents receive duplicate ballots and ballots for dead relatives
https://archive.is/eGO3T
>Pennsylvania postal employee on leave and now fired after bags of mail discovered outside of home put out for trash pickup
https://archive.is/nU32I
>25,263 ballots rejected in Colorado primary
https://archive.is/hdlXg
>Double absentee ballots sent to residents in Henrico county
https://archive.is/5ubBL
>Pa rejects 336,000 duplicate ballot requests 34,000 rejected for other reasons . Many voters request ballots up to 11 times
https://archive.is/S2WSS
>Mecklenburg residents receiving double ballots due to labelling glitch
https://archive.is/nEDFx
>San Mateo residents receive multiple ballots
https://archive.is/PvLTU
>Multiple absentee ballot applications showing up at Flint Michigan homes
https://archive.is/ieaho
>Florida man arrested for obtaining dead wife's ballot and forging signature to "test the system"
https://archive.is/0nASP
>Election officials ask voters to not disinfect their mail in ballots as handfulls have already arrived destroyed and unable to be tabulated
https://archive.is/GzEIp
>400 duplicate ballots sent to local voters in Richmond
https://archive.is/dmU3I
>Duplicate ballots sent to "some" in North Carolina. How many? Who knows.
https://archive.is/cJHrU
>Placer county residents receiving duplicate ballots
https://archive.is/49s9J
>Bay area voters receive multiple ballots
https://archive.is/MVH4l
>USPS confirms missing ballots, never made it to residents of Seminole county. How many? Who knows
https://archive.is/w7xDd
>Board of elections resends 99,000+ ballots in Brooklyn . Officials worry numerous originals already filled out and sent off
https://archive.is/2pnX1
>50,000 ballots in Ohio sent to wrong addresses
https://archive.is/3zQti
>500,000 ballots in Virginia labelled with wrong return address
https://archive.is/qdAge
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots in pittsburg Allegheny county
https://archive.is/aiPzw
>Glitch sends duplicate ballots to Needham town residents
https://archive.is/H7QpL
>Detroit elections, where 72% of absentee votes do not match registered voters
https://archive.is/1SSGK
>80,000 ballots dissappeared in baltimore
https://archive.is/dZnqb
>New York voting official warns people will use dead people to vote, and a few have
https://archive.is/ZwA36
>Michigan secretary misprinted military absentee ballots . 400 already issued
https://archive.is/aG87n
>Mail in ballots found in road ditch in Wisconsin
https://archive.is/nCQLH
>4 officials arrested in ballot harvesting scheme
https://archive.is/DWFlj
>9 military mail in ballots thrown in dumpster in PA
https://archive.is/EDBm8
>134 felony voter fraud charges announced in Dem primary
https://archive.is/7eJkz
>New Yorkers receiving ballots with wrong names and adresses
https://archive.is/jd65P
>Queens voters receiving military ballots
https://archive.is/YLIoB
>Sun sentinel detailing Florida voting fraud
https://archive.is/YRUQ1
>Ballot harvesting scam exposed in minneapolis
https://archive.is/flFsD
Total number of fraudulent votes = not enough to overturn the election. Period...
Again, it's not worse. It's not comparable. That's the problem. And everyone here has told you as much, with a saintly patience and yet you are refusing to engage in discussion. Instead you are just barking at us.
I suggest maybe you take some time to cool off. I know when your preferred candidate loses an election it can be hard. But imo you're not participating in the discussions on these threads in the same way that you participated in them prior to the election. There's clearly a desire to "own the libs" as opposed to "discuss with the libs". This is a sincere suggestion.
You can criticize the Obama policy for failing to do *enough* to help the kids. But his administration was trying to balance enforcing immigration law and humanitarian interests while having to deal with an unprecedented surge of a peculiar type of immigrant. One that required special care, care that the immigration offices did not have the resources to handle. This idea that his policy should have been perfect carries with it the unspoken assumption that ICE under Obama had infinite resources.
Again, I don't think his policy was optimal. But it wasn't a policy of intentionally trying to make things worse for these immigrants. It was a policy borne of having insufficient resources for an unexpected problems.
And again, at the end of the day, the net number of united immigrant families was higher when the Obama administration processed immigrants. The net number was lower with the Trump policy. And the Trump policy was designed with the intent of punishing families and thus dissuading future immigration.
Frankly this discussion reminds me of an earlier one about transwoman using public restrooms, where some posters wanted to argue against it without having to own the logical consequences of what that would mean. I still don't understand how you can argue against the Obama policy without addressing the difficult realworld challenges of the issue.
If the executive order is a violation of an actual law then it needs to pursued in the courts. Was it?
First was "allegations with no evidence" and "there was no fraud"
Now that people are finding fraudulent votes, is "not enough to overturn the election"
What is the next step?
Declaring that Trump is grasping at straws and wasting our time...
For the record, the ONE good thing W. pushed for was immigration reform, and his own party told him to go fly a kite, just like they did to Obama.
Well - I dont have the time to go through these necessarily. First - just citing an online article doesnt constitute evidence.
Second - I clicked on the bottom one since I recognized the story: It's the Project Veritas attempt to smear Ilhan Omar. Project Veritas is known for manipulating facts and creating false stories with them. IIRC, the Ilhan Omar ballot harvesting thing has since been proven totally false (I believe the guy in the video has since admitted he was paid of Project Veritas to lie).
So consider that of the group of links you posted, many (or all) of them are either flase or at least unsubstantiated.
Mistakes do happen in elections. The whole glitch thing in Michigan is an example of a mistake. It was discovered and corrected. No one has been able to prove (or even meaningfully argue, to my knowledge) that the votes were glitched out intentionally.
It's *(hard* to steal an election without leaving a paper trail. If election fraud was widespread enough to flip the election, it would be very hard to keep that a secret. The fact that almost no stories are being reported upon by investigative journalists with a history of ethical investigation should say something.