SCS: what’s some basic advice?
Klorox
Member Posts: 927
I plan on playing SCS for the first time using my protagonist and NPCs from BGIIEE.
What kind of party makeup do I need to succeed in this kind of game?
I’ve never installed SCS before and I’m interested in running through BGIEE first and importing my character.
Do I need a lot of arcane spellcasters? Do I need a lot of tanks?
I like to use between 4 and 6 characters. My parties usually include a non-multiclassed arcane caster (like Imoen, Neera, Nalia, Edwin, or the protagonist), one multiclassed arcane caster (Jan, Aerie, or protagonist), one cleric (single or multiclass), one druid (Jaheira works fine), and one thief to handle the locks and traps (Imoen is good enough, but I’ll also use Jan or the protagonist here).
I like as many tanks as possible too. Korgan, Minsc, Keldorn, even Mazzy is great if you build her up. I like having the protagonist here as well, if I dual or multiclass him later.
Thanks for the help!
What kind of party makeup do I need to succeed in this kind of game?
I’ve never installed SCS before and I’m interested in running through BGIEE first and importing my character.
Do I need a lot of arcane spellcasters? Do I need a lot of tanks?
I like to use between 4 and 6 characters. My parties usually include a non-multiclassed arcane caster (like Imoen, Neera, Nalia, Edwin, or the protagonist), one multiclassed arcane caster (Jan, Aerie, or protagonist), one cleric (single or multiclass), one druid (Jaheira works fine), and one thief to handle the locks and traps (Imoen is good enough, but I’ll also use Jan or the protagonist here).
I like as many tanks as possible too. Korgan, Minsc, Keldorn, even Mazzy is great if you build her up. I like having the protagonist here as well, if I dual or multiclass him later.
Thanks for the help!
2
Comments
SCS really changes things, especially with smarter mages and priests installed. These enemies are a much greater threat now, and you will want to take them out as quickly as possible. With mages this often means stripping away anti-magic buffs before you can breach them and start doing damage. So, two mages is a great idea. You can get through BG1 with one mage, but two won't hurt. I can't imagine playing BG2 without two mages. I just can't. If you have one mage and he/she is killed or disabled against a high level spell caster, you're in deep trouble.
Two tanks is great as well. Druids are very handy, as their insect spells are great mage disruptors. It already sounds like you have a great party in mind, so you should do well, once you get used to it.
Pretty much all that @OrlonKronsteen has said, especially about the "readme".
Before I tried SCS I always played on "insane", so turned the level down for the first runs with it. You can always put them back up mid game.
You'll be fine if you play BG1 first, that will give you a good idea about the changes. Especially about the change of behavior from enemies, i.e calls for help, targeting the more vulnerable NPC, mages actually using their spellbooks.
Just remember to save frequently, then you can mess around and see what's what.
@OrlonKronsteen I think one of the reasons "better SCS players" haven't commented yet is that they don't remember how the game felt before SCS.
I'd recommend going from 2 arcane spellcasters to 3. One primary single class one is very good, the other two can be multiclass or bards. This is not required, but quite helpful. Why? Well, here are some reasons:
- To get rid of your opponents buffs, you might have to dispel a spell shield and multiple spell protections before you can breach them. Otherwise, they might stay invulnerable for quite a while. In order to go through this process quickly, it helps to have multiple arcane spellcasters
- Even more important, enemy spellcasters WILL constantly dispel your own buffs, so you can't just use the usual cleric protections that protect against almost every crowd control effect in vanilla (chaotic commands, death ward, remove fear) and hope that they stay active. However, arcane spellcasters can actually protect their buffs with spellshield and/or spell immunity: abjuration. This will be especially useful for fighter/mage types, allowing them to remain fully buffed damage dealers throughout difficult battles.
- PFMW and other defensive options can protect arcane spellcasters even against the most brutal SCS-improved physical damage dealers
Here are some more random points in no particular order:
- Make sure you have access to true sight or other ways to dispel invisibility (detect illusions on 100 is very helpful!). Not only do mages go invisible all the time, SCS thieves can be very deadly if you don't reveal them quickly. They will constantly go invisible via potions and backstab you to death if you can't stop them.
- A single-class cleric is propably a bit of a waste, mostly because clerics buffs are easily dispelled
- Learning to use your thieves to their full potential can be crucial (I, myself, am still bad at this, but I'm learning constantly). Backstabs can get rid of mages before their protections fire, detect illusions gets through the powerful Spell Immunity: Divination (which, in combination with illusion spells, makes for an annoying defensive option) and traps will win some encounters from the get go
- A gameplay tip (though it's propably obvious): As soon as you see a spellcaster without their protections active (either by having dispelled them or them running out), go after them with your fighters as fast and as hard as possible. Don't give them time to recast their defensive spells
- Make heavy use of your potions to re-protect your characters as soon as you lose important buffs
- In you initial post, you refer to fighter-types such as Minsc or Mazzy as tanks. I wouldn't think of them that way. They might have high hp and low ac, but a) humanoid enemies in SCS will usually go after your most vulnerable party members anyway, so the "tank" role known from other RPGs isn't all that relevant, b) more importantly, arcane spellcasters of any kind are far more tanky compared to fighter-types if they are protected via the usual suspects such as blur/mirror image/improved invisibility/spirit armor/stoneskin or pfmw and some spell protections. Especially in ToB, you fighters are likely to take tons of physical damage unless you get them high damage reduction, while arcane spellcasters can shrug off any number of attacks if you keep their protections going. Fighter-types, on the other hand, are by far the best when it comes to dealing high and reliable damage. I prefer to think of them as the damage dealers that swarm and kill every unprotected opponent as soon as possible while the spellcasters weaken opponents, getting rid of their buffs (they also usually spend quite a bit of time re-buffing)
- Druids can be heavily weakened in SCS depending on your installation. If you decide to install the option that makes fire shield block insect swarm, I wouldn't take a druid along, despite my general love for the class. In any case, in my opinion one divine spellcaster is enough
Some of the things I've posted only apply to full SCS installations, involving smarter mages with full prebuffs and the like, so feel free to ignore them if you don't go that route yet (it'll definitely take some getting used to, and at times it might feel impossible). Also, a lot of this is subjective, as people have found different successful playstyles that work for them. For example, it's entirely possible to not use mages to dispel spell protections, instead going for some wizard slayer/druid dual and apply spell failure with darts and fire seeds (or just use an un-nerfed inquisitor).
But no matter what installation you will chose, you can still finish the game solo. It's good to have at least one arcane caster. Everything else is up to you and completely optional. Grab anyone you like to enjoy the game. Consider your party's strenght at different points of the game though. If you will take 6 multiclass characters it will be harder than let's say 2 pure casters and 2 pure fighters. Sad, but truth : arcane casters are the best tanks in this game. That's one of the reasons why Kensai/Mage dual class and Fighter/Mage multiclass are so strong. Aerie for example is better tank than Minsc, Keldorn, Korgan. So no, you don't need a lot of "traditional tanks".
Fundamentally you want to beat enemy mages to death with big pointy stick (or equivalent).
However enemy mages use Protection from magical weapons (pmfw) to prevent this. Plus stoneskin pretty much stops non magical weapons. Or liches are just naturally immune to non magic weapons.
You want to cast breach (or high level dispel) to remove pfwm and stoneskin. But enemy mages use immunity abjuration (SI:A) to stop breach and dispel.
Various spells can get rid of SI:A with varying degrees of success and you need to learn which work best. Spell Trap used by enemy mages can block some of these spells, but often Spell Trap drops in the process.
Take a look at this sheet to see what spells you need to use
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1y7r2Z3FfZk74NdAVHuZuiNmWh14y1tAytNrsFMSY7zc/htmlview#gid=0
And finally, once you do get through the protections, enemy mages love to use contingencies or triggers to replace them instantly. So bear that in mind.
Plus they love invisibility which messes up targeting for some of your removals. And SI:D to mess with your invis removal capability.
Ultimately it’s a mini game in itself to work out how to get past mage removals - and while you work it out they are free to pelt you with damage. Enjoy!
I never played SCS, but I read about it and it seems very focused on so-called mage fencing. Dispelling enemy mage's protections "from top to bottom" until finally you can Breach and kill them. Heh, I even remember an excel table someone made which shows which removal spell works on which defensive spell.
The thing is, during my most recent playthrough, which for reference was a solo F/M/T, my top three mage killers were:
1. Shapeshift into Mustard Jelly. Basically complete immunity to all forms of magic, two ranged attacks per round, poison on failed save vs. death, slow on failed save vs. breath. You literally just left-click the enemy caster, press F4 and wait. You'd think summons would counter this, but they don't - summons in EE are BG2 summons and therefore absolutely pathetic. You keep your HP, AC and all character effects(i.e. regeneration) when shapeshifted, and the jelly has decent physical resistances as well, so several Ogres or Ettercaps are entirely irrelevant. Granted, this method requires a F/M, otherwise you likely won't have the ThAC0 to hit anything, but even a pure Mage shapeshifted into a Mustard Jelly can simply tank most of a Lich's spellbook. Then there's Cloak of the Sewers.
2. AoE damage spells. My personal favourite is the often overlooked Death Fog. A 6th level spell, so it works on Liches, Acid damage which works on undead, guaranteed 8 damage per round with no save, interrupts casting. Throw two and wait six rounds.
3. When I just felt lazy - brute force. Stoneskins only go up to 10, and even a multiclass Fighter will have 4.5APR, so in most cases it takes only two rounds to chew through all of them. Then there's parties which can easily reach 10APR between all characters, Whirlwind and weapons with secondary effects that Stoneskin does not block at all. PFMW(or whatever Mantle they're using, I see SCS buffed the spell) is a thing, but it only lasts 4 rounds. You can simply walk away and wait it out - either way, Breaching the enemy mage takes about the same amount of time, so why even waste spells?
So basically my question is this: how would these three tactics(if they can even be called that) work, or not work, in SCS?
1) I haven't tested this, but I imagine that SCS is better at dealing with jelly form, certainly, but it should still be quite powerful. SCS mages will propably hit your with MMMs (almost all of them have that spell) or just run away/go invisble, though, and very high level mages have quite powerful summons (I wouldn't want to be in jelly form against a fallen planetar). The important thing to know: SCS mages don't tend to waste spells on targets that are clearly immune to said spells.
2) Death Fog should do decent work. SCS enemies will be better when it comes to walking out of AoE spells, though, but in multiples, lingering cloud effects can do very well (I use cloudkills and death fogs against SCS beholders, for example). Lower level AoE spells might be countered by GOI and the like.
3) Waiting out buffs by walking away until they're done is a great strategy for SCS, if you have the patience for it. I highly recommend it. Sometimes, though, the area of combat won't allow it, so while wizard's chess can mostly be avoided, there are a couple of encounters where you should really be ready to have a go at it. Well, to be truthful, even then you can wait out enemy buffs if your own buffs are strong enough and get renewed often enough to avoid taking any damage, and there are some alternative ways when dealing with spellcasters, such as the old wizard slayer/druid dual class using fire seeds on a summoned creature next to the opponent, or just throwing non-enchanted darts/darts +5 from the Cloak of the Stars (pioneered by @semitcgod ) - most spellcasters can't do a lot against that.