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Demographics Poll: What is your sex/gender?

13

Comments

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,001
    Ardanis said:

    According to a Gallup poll, a majority of people overall would prefer that transgender people should use the bathrooms corresponding to their sex at birth, but a majority of women specifically believe the opposite. 52% of women polled supported transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity; only 40% supported transgender people using bathrooms based on biological sex.

    Wonder if I'll get away entering a women's bath and claiming I'm genderfluid and feeling like a woman today :blush:

    It probably wouldn't be as great as great as you think anyway...

    semiticgod
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,141

    @UnderstandMouseMagic: The women's preference you cite is not supported by data. According to a Gallup poll, a majority of people overall would prefer that transgender people should use the bathrooms corresponding to their sex at birth, but a majority of women specifically believe the opposite. 52% of women polled supported transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity; only 40% supported transgender people using bathrooms based on biological sex.

    Which position is correct is a more complicated issue, but as far as "women's preference" goes, a majority of women support transgender people choosing which bathroom they wish to use.

    I'm guessing this is because there's a strong political difference between Republicans and Democrats, and Democrats skew female while Republicans skew male: Republicans favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their sex at birth 71% to 25%, while Democrats favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity 63% to 29%.


    The poll you link to was based in America.

    But anyway, 40% of the women in the survey don't agree with transwomen using female bathrooms. If I understand it rightly, they think it should be based on biological sex? Which, if it's representative of the population as a whole, is a darn sight more women than transwomen.
    So why should they have their preference overided by a minority?

    Ardanis
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,669

    @UnderstandMouseMagic: The women's preference you cite is not supported by data. According to a Gallup poll, a majority of people overall would prefer that transgender people should use the bathrooms corresponding to their sex at birth, but a majority of women specifically believe the opposite. 52% of women polled supported transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity; only 40% supported transgender people using bathrooms based on biological sex.

    Which position is correct is a more complicated issue, but as far as "women's preference" goes, a majority of women support transgender people choosing which bathroom they wish to use.

    I'm guessing this is because there's a strong political difference between Republicans and Democrats, and Democrats skew female while Republicans skew male: Republicans favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their sex at birth 71% to 25%, while Democrats favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity 63% to 29%.


    The poll you link to was based in America.

    But anyway, 40% of the women in the survey don't agree with transwomen using female bathrooms. If I understand it rightly, they think it should be based on biological sex? Which, if it's representative of the population as a whole, is a darn sight more women than transwomen.
    So why should they have their preference overided by a minority?

    Because in a democracy, the majority decides (kinda). In your country the majority might be against and perhaps that will be different there, if the topic is even raised.

    The notion that males would dress up as women and pretend to be female just to look at women washing their hands (it's not like they can push themselves into the actual booths where you do your thing.. ) in a female only bathroom is so immensely stupid and unfounded I am baffled by its sheer existance.

    GenderNihilismGirdle
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 860
    edited January 11
    Skatan said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic: The women's preference you cite is not supported by data. According to a Gallup poll, a majority of people overall would prefer that transgender people should use the bathrooms corresponding to their sex at birth, but a majority of women specifically believe the opposite. 52% of women polled supported transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity; only 40% supported transgender people using bathrooms based on biological sex.

    Which position is correct is a more complicated issue, but as far as "women's preference" goes, a majority of women support transgender people choosing which bathroom they wish to use.

    I'm guessing this is because there's a strong political difference between Republicans and Democrats, and Democrats skew female while Republicans skew male: Republicans favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their sex at birth 71% to 25%, while Democrats favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity 63% to 29%.


    The poll you link to was based in America.

    But anyway, 40% of the women in the survey don't agree with transwomen using female bathrooms. If I understand it rightly, they think it should be based on biological sex? Which, if it's representative of the population as a whole, is a darn sight more women than transwomen.
    So why should they have their preference overided by a minority?

    Because in a democracy, the majority decides (kinda). In your country the majority might be against and perhaps that will be different there, if the topic is even raised.

    The notion that males would dress up as women and pretend to be female just to look at women washing their hands (it's not like they can push themselves into the actual booths where you do your thing.. ) in a female only bathroom is so immensely stupid and unfounded I am baffled by its sheer existance.
    Well, most bathroom stalls I'm familiar with, you could crawl under or climb over the walls unless you were a rather large man.

    Edit-At least mens' bathrooms. I'm not going to say I've NEVER been in a women's bathroom (once, late at night, in an old and empty building (because late at night) and the womens' bathroom was the one on that floor (old building), and I was curious), but I suspect there's no difference in modern bathroom stall design between men's and women's.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,866
    edited January 11
    You mean where you live the men's rooms do not have mythical golden tiles, scented perfumes, soft velvet covers on the seats, a well dressed attendant called Jeeves who is handing out tiny preheated towels, a make up specialist, an inspirational coach to make positive statements on shapes and figures, and a personal hygiene dispenser?

    GenderNihilismGirdlelolienThacoBell
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,669

    Skatan said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic: The women's preference you cite is not supported by data. According to a Gallup poll, a majority of people overall would prefer that transgender people should use the bathrooms corresponding to their sex at birth, but a majority of women specifically believe the opposite. 52% of women polled supported transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity; only 40% supported transgender people using bathrooms based on biological sex.

    Which position is correct is a more complicated issue, but as far as "women's preference" goes, a majority of women support transgender people choosing which bathroom they wish to use.

    I'm guessing this is because there's a strong political difference between Republicans and Democrats, and Democrats skew female while Republicans skew male: Republicans favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their sex at birth 71% to 25%, while Democrats favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity 63% to 29%.


    The poll you link to was based in America.

    But anyway, 40% of the women in the survey don't agree with transwomen using female bathrooms. If I understand it rightly, they think it should be based on biological sex? Which, if it's representative of the population as a whole, is a darn sight more women than transwomen.
    So why should they have their preference overided by a minority?

    Because in a democracy, the majority decides (kinda). In your country the majority might be against and perhaps that will be different there, if the topic is even raised.

    The notion that males would dress up as women and pretend to be female just to look at women washing their hands (it's not like they can push themselves into the actual booths where you do your thing.. ) in a female only bathroom is so immensely stupid and unfounded I am baffled by its sheer existance.
    Well, most bathroom stalls I'm familiar with, you could crawl under or climb over the walls unless you were a rather large man.

    Edit-At least mens' bathrooms. I'm not going to say I've NEVER been in a women's bathroom (once, late at night, in an old and empty building (because late at night) and the womens' bathroom was the one on that floor (old building), and I was curious), but I suspect there's no difference in modern bathroom stall design between men's and women's.
    .. and you think these men dressing up as women to con their way into womens' bathrooms are going to squeeze themselves in under the door to a toilet booth to peek at women doing the dirty? If any male is that intent on preying on women, they can just open the door to the bathroom and do it anyways. This is just a unfounded argument, inflating a hypothetical action that's not grounded in anything tangible.

    GenderNihilismGirdleThacoBellZaxares
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,637
    The fact that even now, long after this first became an issue of public debate, there are no examples of transgender people using the women's bathroom to hurt women, despite the fact that most places have no laws banning MTF transgender people from these places, makes it fairly obvious that this fear isn't grounded in reality. You'd think that a debate this massive would be about a string of serious crimes, but the fact is, all the fears about sinister transgender people committing crimes in women's bathrooms are hypothetical fantasies.

    It's one of those "What if X happens?" debates where X doesn't actually happen.

    Even if we were talking about real crimes, a law banning transgender people from women's bathrooms would be unenforceable. Even cis-gender men can pass as women by changing their appearance. To prevent this hypothetical scenario, you'd literally need either DNA tests, inspectors, or video camera inside actual toilet bowls to detect hidden males or MTF transgender folks.

    GenderNihilismGirdleThacoBell
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,001

    The fact that even now, long after this first became an issue of public debate, there are no examples of transgender people using the women's bathroom to hurt women, despite the fact that most places have no laws banning MTF transgender people from these places, makes it fairly obvious that this fear isn't grounded in reality. You'd think that a debate this massive would be about a string of serious crimes, but the fact is, all the fears about sinister transgender people committing crimes in women's bathrooms are hypothetical fantasies.

    It's one of those "What if X happens?" debates where X doesn't actually happen.

    Even if we were talking about real crimes, a law banning transgender people from women's bathrooms would be unenforceable. Even cis-gender men can pass as women by changing their appearance. To prevent this hypothetical scenario, you'd literally need either DNA tests, inspectors, or video camera inside actual toilet bowls to detect hidden males or MTF transgender folks.

    Isn't that what the FBI does?

    Female Body Inspector - an old joke that all the juvenile boys used to guffaw at back when I was in grade school...

  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,192
    Isn't whether or not it's an unfounded fear besides the point? People already feel vulnerable and exposed when using the bathroom. Especially so when it's a public one. It makes sense to cling to whatever sense of comfort, privacy and security there is.

    This isn't exactly an issue with an easy resolution. If it was, someone would've come up with it by now.

    UnderstandMouseMagicThacoBell
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 860
    Skatan said:

    Skatan said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic: The women's preference you cite is not supported by data. According to a Gallup poll, a majority of people overall would prefer that transgender people should use the bathrooms corresponding to their sex at birth, but a majority of women specifically believe the opposite. 52% of women polled supported transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity; only 40% supported transgender people using bathrooms based on biological sex.

    Which position is correct is a more complicated issue, but as far as "women's preference" goes, a majority of women support transgender people choosing which bathroom they wish to use.

    I'm guessing this is because there's a strong political difference between Republicans and Democrats, and Democrats skew female while Republicans skew male: Republicans favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their sex at birth 71% to 25%, while Democrats favor transgender people using bathrooms based on their gender identity 63% to 29%.


    The poll you link to was based in America.

    But anyway, 40% of the women in the survey don't agree with transwomen using female bathrooms. If I understand it rightly, they think it should be based on biological sex? Which, if it's representative of the population as a whole, is a darn sight more women than transwomen.
    So why should they have their preference overided by a minority?

    Because in a democracy, the majority decides (kinda). In your country the majority might be against and perhaps that will be different there, if the topic is even raised.

    The notion that males would dress up as women and pretend to be female just to look at women washing their hands (it's not like they can push themselves into the actual booths where you do your thing.. ) in a female only bathroom is so immensely stupid and unfounded I am baffled by its sheer existance.
    Well, most bathroom stalls I'm familiar with, you could crawl under or climb over the walls unless you were a rather large man.

    Edit-At least mens' bathrooms. I'm not going to say I've NEVER been in a women's bathroom (once, late at night, in an old and empty building (because late at night) and the womens' bathroom was the one on that floor (old building), and I was curious), but I suspect there's no difference in modern bathroom stall design between men's and women's.
    .. and you think these men dressing up as women to con their way into womens' bathrooms are going to squeeze themselves in under the door to a toilet booth to peek at women doing the dirty? If any male is that intent on preying on women, they can just open the door to the bathroom and do it anyways. This is just a unfounded argument, inflating a hypothetical action that's not grounded in anything tangible.
    No, I don't. I'm on the transgender side. Or at least the "who cares who uses which bathroom" since I am neither trans nor up in arms about them wanting to use the bathroom they want to use.

    semiticgod
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,141

    The fact that even now, long after this first became an issue of public debate, there are no examples of transgender people using the women's bathroom to hurt women, despite the fact that most places have no laws banning MTF transgender people from these places, makes it fairly obvious that this fear isn't grounded in reality. You'd think that a debate this massive would be about a string of serious crimes, but the fact is, all the fears about sinister transgender people committing crimes in women's bathrooms are hypothetical fantasies.

    It's one of those "What if X happens?" debates where X doesn't actually happen.

    Even if we were talking about real crimes, a law banning transgender people from women's bathrooms would be unenforceable. Even cis-gender men can pass as women by changing their appearance. To prevent this hypothetical scenario, you'd literally need either DNA tests, inspectors, or video camera inside actual toilet bowls to detect hidden males or MTF transgender folks.



    Well they have managed to commit crimes in women's prisons.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/09/sexual-assaults-in-womens-prison-reignite-debate-over-transgender-inmates-karen-white

    An interesting fact from this article is this which I wasn't aware of;

    “Almost half of trans women prisoners are sex offenders,”

    Balrog99Ardanis
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,637
    Interesting. To be fair, though, it's not really relevant to the bathroom debate.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,637

    Interesting. To be fair, though, it's not really relevant to the bathroom debate.

    Erm sorry what?

    How is it not relevent to take into account that a considerable percentage of men who claim to be, or are accepted as transexual women, are sex offenders?
    1. First, this statement is groundless, even including your previous citation. Your citation claimed that a large proportion of transgender women criminals committed sexual crimes. This does not establish that a "considerable percentage" of transgender women overall are criminals, whether sexual or otherwise.

    Put it this way: most female criminals (and I'm not talking about transgender women here; this is a very old statistic) commit property crimes, as opposed to violent crimes. Does that establish that "many women commit property crimes?" No--it establishes that, of the women who do commit crimes, those crimes are disproportionately property crimes. In order to establish that "a considerable percentage of men who claim to be, or are accepted as transexual women, are sex offenders," you need a statistic on the percentage of transgender women who are sex offenders.

    2. In order for these crimes to be relevant to the bathroom debate, the crimes in question need to have been committed in bathrooms.

    As for the transgender issue in regards to prisons, I have to agree with the statement at the end of the article: if a transgender woman still has male genitalia and isn't even undergoing hormone treatment, transferring them to a women's prison is a very bad idea to say the least. In addition, I would also forbid any trans women from moving to women's prisons if they had committed any sexual offense against women.

    SkatanThacoBell
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,637
    The reason I want to stress this distinction is because the bathroom issue and the ratio of sex crimes to non-sexual crimes among transgender female criminals aren't actually related to each other--the only commonality between them is the underlying assumption that "many 'transgender women' are actually male rapists using transgender identity as a disguise," and I'm very suspicious of that concept. The idea--and I'm referring to a much, much broader trend in the public debate; I'm not talking about this thread itself--seems more grounded in (1) disbelief that transgender identity is even genuine among transgender people and (2) the fear of deviant men, as opposed to (3) a statistically-proven trend that men are getting away with crimes by falsely claiming to be transgender.

    There was a South Park episode where Cartman falsely claimed transgender status for his own advantage, but that's the closest thing I can think of to an example of this actually happening. All of the other transgender folks I've known, both on this forum and in real life, have seemed pretty candid about their identity, and none of them have profited from it or used it to get away with anything.

    SkatanGenderNihilismGirdleThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,141

    Interesting. To be fair, though, it's not really relevant to the bathroom debate.

    Erm sorry what?

    How is it not relevent to take into account that a considerable percentage of men who claim to be, or are accepted as transexual women, are sex offenders?
    1. First, this statement is groundless, even including your previous citation. Your citation claimed that a large proportion of transgender women criminals committed sexual crimes. This does not establish that a "considerable percentage" of transgender women overall are criminals, whether sexual or otherwise.

    Put it this way: most female criminals (and I'm not talking about transgender women here; this is a very old statistic) commit property crimes, as opposed to violent crimes. Does that establish that "many women commit property crimes?" No--it establishes that, of the women who do commit crimes, those crimes are disproportionately property crimes. In order to establish that "a considerable percentage of men who claim to be, or are accepted as transexual women, are sex offenders," you need a statistic on the percentage of transgender women who are sex offenders.

    2. In order for these crimes to be relevant to the bathroom debate, the crimes in question need to have been committed in bathrooms.

    As for the transgender issue in regards to prisons, I have to agree with the statement at the end of the article: if a transgender woman still has male genitalia and isn't even undergoing hormone treatment, transferring them to a women's prison is a very bad idea to say the least. In addition, I would also forbid any trans women from moving to women's prisons if they had committed any sexual offense against women.

    With regards to point 1, I have already corrected the wording to make it clear it related to convicted men in prison who are claiming to be or who are transgender.

    Point 2.
    Sorry what? A sexual attack can only be compared to another sexual attack if it happens in the same type of location?

    And regards the last statement, I suggest the criterior " still has male genitalia and isn't even undergoing hormone treatment," to be the deciding rule for any transexual woman using women only spaces.
    Whereas at the momnt, we have an ongoing push for this to be accepted from any self presenting transexual.

    Now as that of course cannot be enforced, then I am not in favour of transexual presenting women being allowed to use women only facilities.

    semiticgodSilverstar
  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 163
    Oudyn wrote: »
    AMAB (assigned male at birth) Genderfluid, to be precise. In essence, my gender identity is not consistent day-to-day. Some days I, as a rather feminine man, perceive myself as wholly a man and desperately attempt to present in a more masculine way to reflect that. Other times I have a strong impulse to transition to female, which often leads to me dressing in drag if it's it all appropriate to the situation and adopting a feminine body language and tone besides. Most of the time, though, I don't really have a masculine/feminine gender identity; I just am.

    This is kinda where my question comes in. What's the difference between an effeminate male and born male but "feel" like female? What is "feel" like female? Aren't they actually reinforcing societal judgements? By accepting that playing with dolls, for example, is for girls and girls only? Don't they actually harm themselves by thinking that something is wrong, that they got thewrong body? How does society saying girls play with dolls make a boy who plays with dolls a girl? How does a male know what "female" feels like? You feel like you, and if you think it's a "female" feeling that is YOU making it so. There is no strictly male or female emotion. Is there?

    Balrog99ThacoBell
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 234
    It's a bit hard to describe cross-gender thoughts and emotions if you haven't experienced them, and while you are correct that there is a tremendous amount of commonality (we are all humans after all), there are noticeable differences. Men and women are not exactly alike, and that is a good thing.

    Further, you are also correct that there is a lot of societal bull being conflated with gender. Liking dolls doesn't make you a girl, just as liking trucks doesn't make you a boy. The clothes, toys, hobbies, etc., are, in and of themselves, not what is important. What is important is matching how you see yourself to how both you and others perceive you, and those things can alter your appearance such that these two things more closely match. This is the basis for gender dysphoria, which is a real phenomenon. (One of the few such issues to still be found in the DSM)

  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 163
    @_Nightfall_ , thank you for sharing, it can't be easy to talk about, but it was helpful. Also, congratulations, you survived and found some sense of happiness. Too many don't.
    I hope I haven't come across as judgmental, we must all be true to ourselves and I'm okay with that. I just try to understand as much as I'm able to.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehr_Nightfall_
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,825
    semiticgod wrote: »
    so much horrible treatment for no reason. It takes a lot of strength to survive that, and a lot of courage to be open about it.
    i see a lot of reasons: ignorance, conformism, false belief, lack of love and empathy, egoism, and many more.
    bad reasons obviously, but reasons, as causes of what happened. as there is and there never will be a good reason for it.

    i tell it because so often happens that the tormenter, the oppressor, has been a victim himself in the past.
    it is so easy when someone is victim of such a treatment and abuse to remain victim all of his life, hiding a shame that in reality is not his shame. or to become from victim an oppressor himself as reaction.
    only exceptional people have the strength to find their way out of that, and to find the strength to be themselves, true to their inner nature, and only they really know the price that they have to pay to do it.
    those that do it and that also learn to forgive are giants among the human race.

    semiticgod_Nightfall_JLee
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