Annoyed with AD&D spell power ladder
Goida
Member Posts: 118
What annoys me about AD&D spell power, maybe just or mostly in the context of the computer adaptations, is how late in the games so much of the more interesting power comes in. The AD&D logic, from the completely different context of tabletop playing, dictates that strong and impressive spells have to be level 7th, 8th, 9th for wizards (and even then some are not at all impressive, like Energy Drain), level 5th-7th for priests. Up to then players have to make do with illusions, enchantments, Leomund's Secret Lodge, Rope Trick, teleport... Actually, everything from that list and more can be very exciting, but these subtle powers hardly carried over to the PC at all. The most magicky stuff we have until the very concluding chapters of the games is the fireball and the lightning bolt. Whee. When we do get access to a Shape Change, nerfed, of course, it is so late in the day that the party can just blow through anything with the iron fists of fighters alone - whereas in tabletop play, of course, any level of fighter with any + sword would be helpless, running around on the ground while a wizard turned into a dragon to vomit fire on him at leisure or into an ant he'd simply never find.
Overall, I think that AD&D has far too much medium-level magic available, fireball-teleport level, to too many people, but too rarely shows real wonders of magic. Special settings like Al Qadim had to be created just to get out of that rut. The restriction is only more pronounced in the PC games. And this stunted power structure is binding for modders. When we come up with a concept of a spell, say, a flame wave, and actually invent a technique to implement it, what hits us in the face like a wet pancake is the realization that we must make it at least a 7th level. Because it needs to be on par with previous, lame spells. Or else we have to greatly reduce the spell's effect and impression, cut down its damage to squeeze it into level 5, at least, if not 4, so that people actually spend some time using it before game over. But why would a big, gorgeous flame wave do only 1d6 damage per level? So we proceed to shrink down the graphics until it's more like a flame ripple and we don't care for it ourselves any longer - all to fit into this game system's idea of normality and balance.
Overall, I think that AD&D has far too much medium-level magic available, fireball-teleport level, to too many people, but too rarely shows real wonders of magic. Special settings like Al Qadim had to be created just to get out of that rut. The restriction is only more pronounced in the PC games. And this stunted power structure is binding for modders. When we come up with a concept of a spell, say, a flame wave, and actually invent a technique to implement it, what hits us in the face like a wet pancake is the realization that we must make it at least a 7th level. Because it needs to be on par with previous, lame spells. Or else we have to greatly reduce the spell's effect and impression, cut down its damage to squeeze it into level 5, at least, if not 4, so that people actually spend some time using it before game over. But why would a big, gorgeous flame wave do only 1d6 damage per level? So we proceed to shrink down the graphics until it's more like a flame ripple and we don't care for it ourselves any longer - all to fit into this game system's idea of normality and balance.
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Comments
I agree that the constraints of computers mean it's difficult to translate the full variety of PnP spells into the game, but that shouldn't stop you from imposing your own view of how things should work through a mod.
I've also found Melf's Minute Meteors to be extremely effective in a lot of fights, because of their high bonus and 5 APR fire rate.
Attack magic also isn't really all that great in the first place, though, imo. I think arcane magic is way more valuable for its crowd control and disabling abilities. Sleep for levels 1-2, Web for levels 3-6, then Confusion, Chaos, and Emotion are almost "I win" buttons for fights of those levels.
The problem is that new powers need to mesh with the old. We are not - we can not - create a whole new game, with its own world. We are limited to additions, expansions and insertions. It might be possible to create a very different magic system, and a few people have done it, but how is that going to coalesce with the rest - the Realms setting, geography and personages, buildings, dialogues, distances, classes, let alone the plot? It would be like putting a giraffe's head on an elephant. If you sort of close one eye and pretend you don't see the rest of the gameplay, or if you don't care for the rest and just admire your far-out ingenuity, then indeed you can distribute your Meteor Swarms to Tom, Dick and Harry. But if you want a semblance of a real (real fantasy) world, then you need to take notice of all the other things in place in it. Which is exactly what is annoying.
Of course, I know it's perfectly useless to complain, and of course I'm going to end up putting my Flame Wave at level 6 and hopefully manage to keep it useful. But, for all the differences, on my mind I have a game like Diablo, more the first one than the second, where you would often and constantly acquire new powers, see new monsters who are more than a logical extension of the old - outside of the system, because there was no system. In AD&D, especially here, there is a system everywhere, and if you stick out, you are either damaging or just useless. It's the same with introducing new creatures in one of the IE games. If you say A, they come from another world, quality requires that you say B - which world. They are all labeled on the Cosmic Wheel, they are all connected, the inner planes in the center, the ethereal, then Prime Material, the astral is the next layer of the egg and so on, and they have conduits, and power games, and the Blood War, and githyanki vs. illithid, and Sigil holds it all in place like a nail. The only place not known is the Abyss. There, at least, you can always dig up a layer and pretend your creatures are from that place. And even then you have to ponder how many charges of fireballs to give them, no more, no less.
I think back on Douglas Niles "Moonshae" books, among the first FR novels, the first trilogy. And there he was obviously just having fun. Either the "facts" about the setting and AD&D monsters were not in place then, or he just invented them a second time. Bhaal there is from Gehenna, not the Abyss, and he gets eliminated, defeated forever in the end; the owlbear is one of Bhaal's "children"; Kazgaroth blasts a whole squad of giants; makes a man into a werewolf by looking into his eyes; a druidess becomes a cleric; cavalry slowly turns into undead; all sorts of things that are completely believable and completely against the "rules." And here we are stuck deciding whether 300 XP for casting a rare spell is acceptable or - too much.
Ack! I know the objections myself. Enough.
-feeblemind
-lower resistance
-skull trap
-flame arrow
-melf minute meteors
-death spell
-improved haste
-aoe spells
the power of low level spells is all in the knowledge the player has.
i post a video that will make the point clear beyond every doubt. is not a video of mine and i am not the player, i wish i were so good
is not the same as pnp, and it will never be so, but the computer version of the games gives a lot of versatility and power even with spells of much lower level then the 8-9 ones.
EDIT: technical explanation of the battle
I remember tackling that fight with the normal NPCs back in the pre-SCS days, when the primary difficulty mod was Tactics. I solved it the same way most people did: by abusing angles and line of sight in order to divide and conquer the various Soviet-themed enemies in the library.
thing that was/is interesting (i still play that mod
i never managed to defeat the deva, i always waited for him to expire, then the challenge was to pick the cleric and kill him before resting, as if you rest he also does it, avoiding his allies. and also resting there is not easy as every time you try a group of durgar whit those mages and the strong fighter helpers spawns right in front of you.
i think that every modern player, that started to play before the tactics era, should try that initial dungeon at least 1 time as now the mod works also for ee.
anyway i posted the video cause there is shown how a low level mage can be effective, how the low level spells if used correctly are really effective. i did not mention it in the spoiler but which cast greater malison and the player is very reactive and aware as the fight goes on, as see that maybe the deva will make it in time to cast which cast on herself a protection from fire.