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New adds to ending. (light spoilers)

2

Comments

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 938
    The entire trial feels so strange to me. No one is even trying to find out what happened.
    It starts with the moment where the PC was laying on the ground when found, probably both covered in blood, and the first reactions was "What did you do?!" - instead of the appropriate "Alarm! The hero was attacked!". SoD story immersion lost me there, unfortunately.
    Zaxares wrote: »
    As it was, having that prison dialogue be the last thing she ever says to you feels extremely cold, and not really worthy of her character.
    I couldn't agree more. Lawful Good, my a***. "There might be a magically high-powerful murderer lose in the city full of riots who set you up in a very unsettling way plus brought grief to one of the city's Dukes, but I don't care about that and I don't care what really happened. Just plead guilty so we all can pretend this matter is settled."
    Maybe she was supposed to say "I believe you are guilty, so stand up to what you did and confess it, and only if you do the city can come to terms with what happened and that's what she needs right now." but it really came out wrong, and as such was one of the many instances at the end of SoD where the devs chose drama for drama's sake.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,333
    Well remember, most the of the grand dukes are defending you. Its pretty much entirely Entar that is gunning for your head. He isn't in his right mind due to intense emotional pain, and wants your head right away instead giving himself time to clear his head. Even with just a few token, "I couldn't have killed Skie, look at all the good I've done." is enough to sway the citizens to your side as well. You don't even need any evidence! Just saying you didn't do it is enough. One of the Grand Dukes explicitly mentions that the people are starting to riot because you are being held and want you released. The entire trial IS sham, but not because of some dark conspiracy. Its entirely because of an emotionally distressed parent in mourning for their child.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,407
    yeah entar wants you dead. he had you promise him skie would come home safe. and now he hears you were found above her dead body.

    when your cleared of the charges the people that let you out belive you but the city never will so you got to leave.

    ThacoBell
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 861
    @ThacoBell But that is precisely why they should be giving you a trial. Instead of clearing your name, they just open the cell door and make you an outlaw.
    And Eltan is rich enough to pay assassins to go after you. Possibly better assassins than Sarevok employed.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,072
    edited March 31
    I'm surprised that you guys still get surprised by how poorly written SoD is.

    The game lost me when transitioned from "let's hunt Sarevok's minion" to "look, a Crusade". Lost me completely in the "parley" scene - where you can't parley. Lost me when Corwin was made a LG Ranger instead of a LN Fighter. Lost me when Glint went nymphomaniacal.
    Lost me with Caelar being a LG Paladin-Aasimar who wants to drag thousands of souls to Avernus just to save her uncle. Lost me when after that she goes Blackguard apparently just for a bad mood.

    Lost me with the nonsense appearances of the Hooded Man. Lost me when Imoen was removed to be replaced by Safana. Lost me as Imoen went from "learning to cast Magic Missile" at SoD to "level 7 Mage" at the beginning of SoA (that's the main reason why I say that SoD is not a bridge, but a dock). Lost me for the way most of the character on your party leaves.

    Anyway, when the trial happens I've completely lost interested in SoD.

    A helluva missed opportunity.

    Post edited by Raduziel on
    lefreutKilivitzArtona
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 938
    edited March 31
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Well remember, most the of the grand dukes are defending you. Its pretty much entirely Entar that is gunning for your head. He isn't in his right mind due to intense emotional pain, and wants your head right away instead giving himself time to clear his head. Even with just a few token, "I couldn't have killed Skie, look at all the good I've done." is enough to sway the citizens to your side as well. You don't even need any evidence! Just saying you didn't do it is enough. One of the Grand Dukes explicitly mentions that the people are starting to riot because you are being held and want you released. The entire trial IS sham, but not because of some dark conspiracy. Its entirely because of an emotionally distressed parent in mourning for their child.

    @ThacoBell Keep in mind that most of what you say is only true for one of the endings the player could see. If you are unlucky as I was, then you see an ending where an assassin from noone-knows-where kills all the FF soldiers to get you out, you have to go through the sewers while being chased, Corwin appears for a melodramatic interlude, Imoen awaits you and brings you to the BGII default team but noone knows why or why they are actually here or who orchestrated your escape. No mentioning of the riots - in your favor - on the streets, no mentioning of the possibility that some of the Dukes might be on your side.
    So, with this ending it starts with "What have you done?!" in a situation where the PC should be seen as a victim, proceeds with several people being murdered while you escape alone and without a clue what is going on in the city, and ends with "No, we didn't help you escape, we are all here because - well, dunno, but let's get away from here." This ending is especially fun if your PC is a paladin with 20 rep and who did only good deeds.

    I really wished they'd chosen a more... diplomatic ending for this case. The Dukes could still come to the prison door, they could say that they do not know what happened, but that there are riots on the streets and they want you to be as far away as possible (this would exclude Duke Silvershield, of course. But the others need to think of their city, nontheless). The PC could be guided to the trapdoor and let into the sewer without a guide. Politics could even justify why there would be FF soldiers chasing you in the sewers. The Dukes protecting the city doesn't mean they have to make it public that they let you escape, and saving a city doesn't mean some soldiers couldn't be sacrificed to make it look as if you escaped by your own.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,333
    @Raduziel You just have bad taste, that's all. ;)

    @jastey The alternative is that you refuse to defend yourself (which, if I recall from earlier posts of yours, you consciously did), or if you staright up admit to being an evil sob. If someone on trial for murder outright refuses to say anything, how do you think that goes down? At best, its contempt of court, at worst, its counted as an admission of guilt. The other alternative is that you talk about how horrible a person you are at leangth.

    The trial does a great job of showing an unfair trial. And its unfair both ways. You are out on trial simply becuase someone not in their right state of mind decides that you are guilty. But on the flip side, you can get basically let off scot free with zero evidence or allibis simply by your reputation and listing your good deeds.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 938
    @ThacoBell I also wrote that I mistook a phrase from the Dukes that my deeds are counted into the trial's decidion. Maybe it's because I am ESL but for me, the trial's dialogue goes like this: "You are accused of this and that. We are judging your character on behalf of what you have done in the past. Do you want to add anything?"
    Sorry for being dumb, but I didn't expect my 20 rep paladin to be treated like a psychpathic assassin because she then chose to say "No, I do not need to add anything."

    And yes, I know the next reply from someone else will be "But haw can you not defend yourself in a trial."

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,072
    @ThacoBell Ad hominem is not an argument at all, so I believe you have nothing to bring to the table for this discussion.

    And your answer to Jastey just shows me another poorly decision from the writer: you may say you're Satan that you're not executed.

    ---

    SoD is a railroaded game - makes me feel like I'm playing those SNES D&D games where all we can do is beat enemies and move forward for the next screen. You can't even travel back to areas previously visited, exactly like in a SNES game.

    And that's is an objective true, not a matter of taste

    BUT it would be a half-decent game with it wasn't sold as a BG title. Trying to push the BG context over it brings half of the troubles.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 938
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    or if you staright up admit to being an evil sob
    @ThacoBell Just in case you are saying that the assassin ending is for evil PCs: It is not - if you did enough evil deeds, you get the "Dukes release PC" ending as well. The assassin ending is for everyone in between.

    And btw: no matter whether it would be "my fault" this ending was triggered in my first playthrough, that's not an argument against my opinion that it is a poorly designed ending, which leaves the player completely in the dark about the street riots and the whole ambiguity of the Dukes etc. Which are the facts you were pointing out, and which is not present in this ending.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 938
    edited March 31
    jastey wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    or if you staright up admit to being an evil sob
    @ThacoBell Just in case you are saying that the assassin ending is for evil PCs: It is not - if you did enough evil deeds, you get the "Dukes release PC" ending as well. The assassin ending is for everyone in between (or if the PC doesn't defend him/herself.)

    And btw: no matter whether it would be "my fault" this ending was triggered in my first playthrough, that's not an argument against my opinion that it is a poorly designed ending, which leaves the player completely in the dark about the street riots and the whole ambiguity of the Dukes etc. Which are the facts you were pointing out, and which is not present in this ending.
    Yeah great, this was supposed to be an edit. :/

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 861
    @ThacoBell But why does it portray an unfair trial? Why does nobody care about what happened?
    Of course it is a political case. But that is no reason to give up on valuable weapons (testable facts) to support one's side.
    Kangaroo courts happen when a powerful entity wants a court proceeding with a foregone conclusion. A trial that is unfair to both parties? Who wants that?

    Btw, on my first playthough I almost responded like @jastey that I had nothing to say, because there were no real case-related responses available. It was only because I had happened to read on the internet that bringing up all my good deeds was necessary for a good ending that I did it.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,333
    @Raduziel You stated your opinion and I stated mine. No debate there. Just a sharing of subjective opinion.

    @jastey I mean, if you don't think a defense is necessary at a trial, I don't know what to tell you.

    @Humanoid_Taifun "A trial that is unfair to both parties? Who wants that?"

    Nobody wants that. Its kinda the point. The trial is an all around bad situation for everyone involved. No matter what happens, pretty much everyone is worse off for it. Pretty dark circumstances.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 861
    But @ThacoBell it is not really a defense. "I do no commit crimes. You can tell by how I sometimes help old ladies across the street."
    If nobody wants this farce, then why does it happen? What IS the point you are alluding to?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,333
    But @ThacoBell it is not really a defense. "I do no commit crimes. You can tell by how I sometimes help old ladies across the street."
    If nobody wants this farce, then why does it happen? What IS the point you are alluding to?

    It happens because of the actions of a single man with a complete disregard for life. Everyone who is actually involved in the trial, want nothing to do with it. They don't want it to happen. But because someone else's actions pushed things to that point, they can't avoid it. Skie is dead, the so called hero is outed as a Bhaalspawn, Entar is experiencing incredibly emotional trauma. He lashes out and blames the closest available scapegoat, the people are rocked by the revelation of what their hero is. You are held on false charges. Entar just wants you dead, the other dukes are trying to figure what is going on, but cannot get any answers. Entar has to be physically restrained from attacking you and removed from the trial. Nobdy wants to be there, nobody has answers, and the sole person responsible is far away. A person drawn to you because of your divine heritage.

    People are looking for some kind of closure, any kind of excuse to end it. Circumstances beyond your control lead you here. You cannot control what is happening, but you CAN control how you respond to it. That's the central theme of the game, of the whole series. Your heritage and the prophecy is propelling events around you out fo your control. What you can control, is how you respond to these things. How you act. Its one of the big things I love about SoD. I encapsulates the core theme of the whole series incredibly well and looks at it from a different angle. You aren't bound by your heritage, only by your actions. Its Nature vs. Nurture, and Baldur's Gate has always argued in favor of Nurture.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 861
    All they have to do is initiate a real trial. I fail to see how any of what you are saying stops them from doing it. The law is not on hold just because one man is breaking it. So please tell me. Why do they not do it?
    After the public hearing, it would still be the obvious thing to do.

    And it is funny how you say I can control how I respond to it, because my very problem with the situation was that I could not.

    Raduziel
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 938
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @jastey I mean, if you don't think a defense is necessary at a trial, I don't know what to tell you.
    How about you talk about the actual subject: "The assassin ending" and reply to my statement that it is unfitting because it does none of the things you pointed out above would happen at the ending of SoD:
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Well remember, most the of the grand dukes are defending you. (...) You don't even need any evidence! Just saying you didn't do it is enough. One of the Grand Dukes explicitly mentions that the people are starting to riot because you are being held and want you released.
    - does NOT happen for the assassin ending which will always trigger if the count of good deeds / evil deeds is not high enough.
    You make it sound as if it's the player's own fault if they see the assassin ending, but it is a devs choice for approximately 1/3 of the players and it is poor design because it lacks information about what is going on in the streets of the city, deprives the PC of any support of any Duke, and even lets the PC (+player) in the dark about who orchestrated the escape.
    It is just as unfitting for a Lawful Neutral character who did not do "good" deeds throughout but is just as far away from a coldblooded murderer.


  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,072
    Oh! I've remember another one!

    During BG1(EE) you save the life of at least two (probably) three of the four Grand Dukes and this appears to be at least partially ignored.

    And SoD totally ignores the way the Council of Four works if the "trial" that happens is motivated solely by Entar's anger - quite a ridiculous one in a world that, as aforementioned, has Divination and Enchantment/Charm spells.

    "Oh, you poisoned the crusaders. You're bad." Says the game that makes you a hero - that's how SoD labels your character - by making your way from Candlekeep to Baldur's Gate by backstab-poisoning everyone.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,333
    @jastey I'm not talking about the assassin ending, I'm talking about the trial and why it not only makes sense but is GOOD. Of course the good ending is going to be better than the "meh" ending. Imoen hired help out of desperation to save you.

    @Humanoid_Taifun "all they have to do is have a real trial." Okay, cool. Next time you are experiencing extreme emotional pain, come back and tell me how easily you can act rationally and normal.

    @Raduziel "
    During BG1(EE) you save the life of at least two (probably) three of the four Grand Dukes and this appears to be at least partially ignored."

    Um, no it doesn't. I've already explained why your past deeds and reputation are the only reason charname is able to turn that trial around at all.

    "And SoD totally ignores the way the Council of Four works if the "trial" that happens is motivated solely by Entar's anger - quite a ridiculous one in a world that, as aforementioned, has Divination and Enchantment/Charm spells."

    You didn't pay much attention, did you? Its specifically mentioned that divination was blocked when they tried to learn the truth of events. As for the trial, yeah. I think a single murderous individual of the power and political sway that Entar has could very easily derail a trial, AND have an effect on the people present.

    ""Oh, you poisoned the crusaders. You're bad." Says the game that makes you a hero - that's how SoD labels your character - by making your way from Candlekeep to Baldur's Gate by backstab-poisoning everyone."

    Its about optics. The poisoning wasn't part of the official briefing. A lone captain pullled you aside and asked you to do it, even stating the act would be frowned on if more people knew about it. Admitting to mass poisoning, with no official orders saying you were asked, looks bad no matter what.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 861
    edited April 1
    @ThacoBell Do you somehow think Baldur's Gate has no laws? The fact Entar is mad at you does not imply in any way that he can get away with any of this stuff. And even IF it did, he would not be opposed to a proper inquiry in the matter anyway, since after all he is STILL looking for the dagger with the soul of his daughter.

    You rule out divination being useless to determine what happened, and ignore enchantment/charm magic, which is not even tried. You also forget that since many <CHARNAME>s have no magical training whatsoever, the fact that divination does not work should at least provide a clue that perhaps there are other folks involved in the crime (something to investigate maybe?), even if somebody like Entar might write it off as just another power of Bhaal manifesting itself in the protagonist. In short, you are treating this whole thing as the incoherent rambling of one angry man which it is. But then you are trying to pass it off as the way things would go down (with not even a way to get a trial at a later point to mend things) in a city where that angry man is not the absolute ruler.
    And that is silly.

    Post edited by Humanoid_Taifun on
    Raduziel
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,072
    edited April 1
    Doesn't worth it.

    Post edited by Raduziel on
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 938
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Imoen hired help out of desperation to save you.
    @ThacoBell No, she didn't. It's explicitely stated in a journal entry, and also if the PC asks the NPCs / thanks for the escape (Imoen, Jahiera, Khalid, Minsc, Dynaheir) they reply that they have no idea what the PC is taking about because they didn't do it.
    So, the assassin ending ends with the PC - and the player - having absolutely no clue what was going on.
    I can only repeat myself: this "meh" ending is what approx. 1/3 of the players get per default, if they play chaotic / neutral. And as such, it is lacking.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,407
    i point the blame towards our favorite hooded man. jon can't just have you hanged now can he.

    ThacoBell
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 12,317
    Friendly disagreement is fine, but a few comments have gotten a bit personal. The moderating team would like to remind folks that respectful behavior is mandatory per the Site Rules. Life is too short to spend time getting into arguments on the Internet--it's easiest not to bother.

    Carry on!

    ZaghoulRaduzielSkatanlolien
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 938
    megamike15 wrote: »
    i point the blame towards our favorite hooded man. jon can't just have you hanged now can he.

    I agree that this is probably the case as the Dukes wouldn't have the FF soldiers killed but why doesn't the Hooded Man just snatch CHARNAME out of the prison? After all, he is capable of making an illusion where CHARNAME thinks they are fighting the slayer, so stunning and teleporting the PC should be quite easy, I fathom.
    The - not really satisfying imho - answer, I guess, is "because BGII mentions an abduction scene in the woods".
    Man, I really do not like the assassin ending. :D

  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 84
    edited April 2
    I think the ending of the story is the hardest to get right, especially in longer works. You need to remember all of these strands from earlier on. You need to get to your conclusion, but also don't want to take away too much player agency. This is also a bridge work of two already finished works, which doesn't help make it easier either. The assassin ending does sound insufficiently fleshed out, which is unfortunate.

    In no way or shape would I say the overall writing is poor, though. There is a lot they did do well. That said I used to work for a literary magazine and determined what works would get published, so for myself I have seen many, many, far worse attempts of writing, which all deserve to be far below SoD's quality and in the poor category.

    Also this entire time I thought Corwin was LN, I've never recruited her in the party to confirm otherwise. It was surprising to learn she was LG.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,407
    i still have never got the assassin ending always the good ending. and that one does flow nicely into the ending.

    this is a problem with rpgs in general. yes you can play evil but they tend to not work as well with the story as opposed to playing good.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,333
    @Humanoid_Taifun What good are laws, when the very person who creates/enforces the laws wants you dead?

    Also, why would enchantment/charm work when divination failed?

    @jastey Eh, my mistake, I never got the assassin ending. Its still nothing new that the good ending in games has more information/closure.

    megamike15
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 861
    @ThacoBell You are strangely ignoring the point about Entar not wanting you dead before he gets his hands on the dagger. He should want this invested. Also, again: He is not the absolute ruler of the city. He cannot make laws by his own power.
    This is basically just a repeat of my previous post, so I am trying to keep my replies short. If your follow-up post ignores these points again, I guess that will be the end of the discussion.

    Why would people assume that enchantment/charm spells do not work on <CHARNAME> without even trying? Why would you?

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 938
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @jastey Eh, my mistake, I never got the assassin ending.
    That explains a lot, actually. See, and the assassin ending is what I got.
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Its still nothing new that the good ending in games has more information/closure.
    That's not an excuse or justification for anything, and it's not a law, either.

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