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  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,612
    @Humanoid_Taifun "You are strangely ignoring the point about Entar not wanting you dead before he gets his hands on the dagger. He should want this invested."

    Again, you are still assuming a healthy rational mindset. I cannot emphasive enough how someone under that kind of extreme emotional distress DOES NOT ACT RATIONALLY. You keep ignoring this point.

    " Also, again: He is not the absolute ruler of the city. He cannot make laws by his own power.
    This is basically just a repeat of my previous post, so I am trying to keep my replies short. If your follow-up post ignores these points again, I guess that will be the end of the discussion."

    Um, yes he does? He is one of the Grand Dukes, making laws is part of his job description. You seem oddly adamant that there is no way he could subvert the law, despite there being very, very, many examples of people with LESS POWER than him doing just that. He literally owns and leads the only police force the city has, in additon to being 1/4 th of ALL POLITICAL AUTHORITY. The actual physical forces at his disposal actually gives him more sway than the other dukes, as he can back his political authority up with physical force that they cannot. That's why they try to dely and re-direct him, rather than directly and openly oppose him. I mean, police in the US get away with thoughsand of extra judicial killings a yearm Entar has all the power of a chie of police and governor COMBINED. Do I need to pull up any of the countless examples of real life politicians getting away wiht outright crimes? You have yet to actually demonstrate why he is incapable of the things we see him do in SoD.

    "Why would people assume that enchantment/charm spells do not work on <CHARNAME> without even trying? Why would you?"

    My question as to why you think enchantment/charm should be explored is me directly engaging with your point. Its an open invitation to clarify your stance and actuall explain it. Which, you don't seem to want to do for some readon. For all of your talk of me ignoring your points, I have actively engaged with all of them. I have provided specific counterpoints to all of your examples. Something you have not done.


    @jastey "That's not an excuse or justification for anything, and it's not a law, either."

    No, but it is common practice. SoD isn't uniqiue in this regard.

    megamike15Ammar
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,863
    every rpg that was not pened by chris avallone or is fallout. has the evil path be less rewarding then the good path.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    edited April 3
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Again, you are still assuming a healthy rational mindset. I cannot emphasive enough how someone under that kind of extreme emotional distress DOES NOT ACT RATIONALLY. You keep ignoring this point.
    I am not, actually. You are in prison. That means, you have not been murdered on the way there. That is canon. It appears that you spend days there.
    So, either Entar has calmed down sufficiently to realize that he needs to talk to you first (investigate the affair), or he does not have the means to kill you whenever he wishes. Either way, he would be open to an investigation, since after all he can only expect to win from it.
    making laws is part of his job description.
    Together with the others, yes.
    Yes, he could use the military forces at his disposal to violently suppress the other leaders. At that point he would indeed become the sole ruler of the city. But we never see him do that, so in effect, he is just one of four.
    You seem oddly adamant that there is no way he could subvert the law,
    He might be able to, but he does not really seem to do that. You reach the end of the story alive. If he is still trying to run you through with a sword, then either his guards are refusing to let him through, or somebody else is holding him back and his guards are refusing to come to his aid. So, if he is as mad as you think he is, he has less power over his troops than you think he does.
    Either way, you are alive and ready for trial.
    My question as to why you think enchantment/charm should be explored is me directly engaging with your point.
    No, it is not.
    It is akin to a police officer telling the media that unfortunately the suspect has no facebook profile, and so there is no way to find out what happened. There is no point after all to read his physical mail or follow other clues. Somebody who is smart enough to not use facebook, would never be stupid enough to leave behind any other traces.
    Not having a facebook profile is unusual, but ending all investigation upon finding such a rare case is stupid.
    What are you doing is essentially just trying to justify bad writing. Unless you can come up with a better reason than "something else did not work either, so why bother trying anything at all?", you are not trying to engage my point honestly.

    Raduziel
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    But the thing about the fake trial that really gets to me is and that is not excused by his anger is that it is so fake.
    Somebody would need to organize a public trial like that in semblance of what a real trial might look like, except completely artificial. Is that in Entar's interest? Why would he (if he is the one in charge of this "trial") even give you time to try to persuade the masses? What is the point of that in a faux trial?
    What I see a fuming father wanting to do is a) torture you and b) make you spill the beans.
    I cannot see this fake trial as anything other than a writer's depiction of what they think a serious trial might be like, because it happens at all.

    If Entar wants a real trial, he should be familiar with his own city and how its legal system operates.

    RaduzielArtonaBaptor
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,324
    megamike15 wrote: »
    every rpg that was not pened by chris avallone or is fallout. has the evil path be less rewarding then the good path.

    I am quoting you but this is a reply to @ThacoBell as well: The assassin ending is not the evil ending. If you play pure evil, you get the Dukes ending, as well. The assassin ending is the neutral ending.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,612
    @Humanoid_Taifun "I am not, actually. You are in prison. That means, you have not been murdered on the way there. That is canon. It appears that you spend days there.
    So, either Entar has calmed down sufficiently to realize that he needs to talk to you first (investigate the affair), or he does not have the means to kill you whenever he wishes. Either way, he would be open to an investigation, since after all he can only expect to win from it."

    He still bumrushes his way into the trial and has to be PHYSICALLY RESTRAINED. He didn't come up with the trial.THe other Dukes went behind his back to try and give you something of a fighting chance.

    "Together with the others, yes.
    Yes, he could use the military forces at his disposal to violently suppress the other leaders. At that point he would indeed become the sole ruler of the city. But we never see him do that, so in effect, he is just one of four. "

    I already addressed this in my previous post. Its the reason the other Dukes don't outvote him to get you off. They keep redirecting him and put up a trial to try and placate him. If you successfully convince them of your innocence, they sneak you out so that he isn't aware. Entar was a powder keg waiting to go up.

    He might be able to, but he does not really seem to do that. You reach the end of the story alive. If he is still trying to run you through with a sword, then either his guards are refusing to let him through, or somebody else is holding him back and his guards are refusing to come to his aid. So, if he is as mad as you think he is, he has less power over his troops than you think he does.
    Either way, you are alive and ready for trial."

    See above.

    "What are you doing is essentially just trying to justify bad writing. Unless you can come up with a better reason than "something else did not work either, so why bother trying anything at all?", you are not trying to engage my point honestly."

    And once again, you refuse to engage in a point that you yourself brought up. I'm trying to meet you halfway, but you keep just brushing me off. Like, why don't you want to explain your own point? "Oh this proves you wrong, but I won't explain why." The writing for SoD is extremely good, and every point that you have bothered to explain, I have provided very reasonable rebuttals.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    He tries to attack you ONCE, you mean, while pretending that you mean that he does it all the time, since after all you are using the one incident to talk away that long period of time in which he did not appear in front of you to kill you. That is weird.
    So the other dukes prepare a public non-trial with non-evidence in order to test your charisma instead of your innocence? If they need convincing before they actually save you, this is certainly a dumb way to go about it. If they would like to avoid riots in the streets because their hero is getting an unfair non-trial and is thrown into prison, this is an even dumber way to go about it, since it would be easy to just hold the "trial" indoors.
    So, after having witnessed that you are a charismatic person, they decide that it is irrelevant what really happened or what the real murderer at large is doing, or where the dagger is, or what the angry mob is going to do. Who cares, right? No need for an investigation.
    The whole thing remains as dumb as before. Your explanation does not help. "Entar is a powder keg" that does not go off for several days and somehow they think that suggesting an investigation into whether his daughter could be resurrected would make him explode.
    "See above" what? You still owe me a real explanation.
    Just like with your idea that no magic would could possibly work for no reason. You are not meeting me halfway, you are just suggesting that somebody arbitrarily decides that this Bhaalspawn is immune to any and all magic and that without exception people just nod their heads and figure that it would just be a waste of time to even try.
    I cannot fathom why you think what you are doing is reasoning. But I can assure you that it is not.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    Also, I do not see how a fake trial would make Entar happier than a real one. How does that placate him, as you say?
    Yes, a real trial might take more time - which the protagonist would spend in prison.
    But since the protagonist spends time in prison anyway, that does not seem to make much of a difference.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,612
    edited April 3
    @Humanoid_Taifun "He tries to attack you ONCE, you mean, while pretending that you mean that he does it all the time, since after all you are using the one incident to talk away that long period of time in which he did not appear in front of you to kill you. "

    I never said he did it all the time. You're just making things up now. I'm getting tired of you accusing me of not explaining things when I have done so patiently and repeatedly. You STILL have not clarified your point on enchantment/charm magic. I'm tired of your ad hominem attacks.

    *edit* Why do people get so pissed off whenever someone tries to defend SoD?

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,324
    But the thing about the fake trial that really gets to me is and that is not excused by his anger is that it is so fake.
    I think the idea of the devs was that the mood/vibe inside the city was already so straint concerning the Bhaalspawn PC that a hidden trial might not have had a real chance (or the masses would have stormed the building).
    And then, maybe the escape was before a real trial. If I was a Duke and would think the city comes to rest once the Bhaalspawn is gone, I'd kick them out before a real trial (and especially, before a real trial's sentence - one way or another - would agitate the masses even more).
    The idea was to make the PC's fall as deep as possible, and being shamed in front of the masses seems to be the devs' choice to achieve it.

    Especially with the plot hole this opened for BGII, I'd wish the approach would have been something more subtle, but that's just my opinion.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,324
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    *edit* Why do people get so pissed off whenever someone tries to defend SoD?
    I tried to discuss the assassin ending with you with regard to how it is unfortunate since it leaves the PC (and player) completely in the dark and can also trigger for 20 rep paladins.
    Your answers to that were (quoted from memory): -it's my own fault I got this ending (say hi to ad hominem attack), -you never got this ending yourself (so you don't really know it), and -it's normal that the evil ending in a RPG is not as good / enlightening than the good one.
    If you call your replies "defending SoD" then we have a different opinion on what they should be called.

    ThacoBell
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    I never said he did it all the time. You're just making things up now.
    I never said you said it. You are using that one attack to pretend that there is no way to have a second trial, and that is my point. Very evidently it is possible for you to spend time in prison without getting assaulted by anyone other than the hooded hoodlum.
    I have done so patiently and repeatedly. You STILL have not clarified your point on enchantment/charm magic.
    From the beginning, my point on enchantment/charm magic has been simple. They should use it try to figure out what the protagonist knows and is hiding (if anything).
    Your point on the other hand is "why bother? <CHARNAME> undoubtedly is immune to such magics".
    I'm tired of your ad hominem attacks.
    You have no idea what ad hominem means. Not once have I attacked your person unrelated to the statements in the discussion (by calling your arguments stupid). But more importantly, I have never disregarded anything you have said based on such attacks against your person. That is what ad hominem means though. (in theory I could insult you in every post. So long as that did not affect the way I address your arguments, no ad hominem would take place). If you feel that I disregard your arguments, it is because they are beyond silly.
    *edit* Why do people get so pissed off whenever someone tries to defend SoD?
    I do not get pissed off when people defend SoD. The problem with you is that you treat your indefensible arguments as defensible by ignoring everything that would break them, like just now.
    In effect, we both face the same problem. The other person will not accept what we are saying. So I can understand your frustration. Unfortunately, I can also read the drivel that you spout. So I have no sympathy for you whatsoever.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @jastey It is possible that was their intent. I do not agree with the reasoning though.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,612
    @jastey From your previous comments, I got the impression that you seemed to think that not defending yourself during a trial was a good idea. I can understand if you say, tried to defend yourself as well as possible and still ended up with the neutral or evil ending. But the game gave you a clear option to argue your innocence, and actively chose not to take it. I don't understand why you think this is the game's fault.

    @Humanoid_Taifun "I can also read the drivel that you spout. So I have no sympathy for you whatsoever."

    Classy.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,902
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Friendly disagreement is fine, but a few comments have gotten a bit personal. The moderating team would like to remind folks that respectful behavior is mandatory per the Site Rules. Life is too short to spend time getting into arguments on the Internet--it's easiest not to bother.

    Since the warning went unheard, we're closing the thread.

    Zaghoulsemiticgod
This discussion has been closed.