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[Infinity engine] Critical hits and critical misses

AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 612
How do critical hits and misses work?

This is what I know:

Critical hits: You score a critical hit when you attack and roll a 20. A critical hit always hits the target, regardless of your to hit number (assuming the target isn't immune to your weapon). Sometimes you also score a critical hit when you roll a 19. This happens when you are proficient in the two-handed weapon style or the single weapon style. A critical hit deals more damage than a normal hit. Helmets protect from critical hits. Some creatures are immune to critical hits.

Critical misses: You get a critical miss when you attack and roll a 1. A critical miss always misses the target, regardless of your to hit number, and your next attack is delayed.

Questions:
  1. How much is your next attack delayed with a critical miss?
  2. How much extra damage do you get from a critical hit? With magical weapons, do you also get a bonus to the extra magical damage?
  3. What else makes you score a critical hit with a 19?
  4. Is it possible to score critical hits with lower numbers (18, 17...)?
  5. Are there critical rolls in any other rolls, like saving throws or thieving ability rolls? If so, how do those work?
  6. Is there anything apart from helmets that protects from critical hits? And from critical misses?
  7. Anything else I need to know about criticals?

Edit: Fixed some mistakes in the questions.

Post edited by Alonso on

Comments

  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 491
    1)cca end of round. If you have more than 1 apr, and critically missed 1st, you'll still squeeze 2nd attack in current round. All in all, this is pretty irrelevant for gameplay. With haste, it's unnoticable.

    2) double

    3) bonus pips to weapon style, some SoD weapons have this property also

    4) yes

    5) no for saves, yes for thievery (only stealing)

    6) yes for hits, no for misses. There's a flag on each item (you can check with NI) that makes an item protect vs criticals. Helmets have this by default.

    7) no creature is "immune" to critical hits. They have an undroppable helmet w/o animation.

    Alonsogorgonzolasemiticgod
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 612
    Thanks for your answers.

    1. cca?
    2. (Originally I didn't write that question properly). If you score a critical hit with a magical weapon that deals extra elemental damage, like fire damage or electric damage, do you also deal double elemental damage?
    4. How does that work?
    5. How does it work for thievery?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,434
    1. afaik a critical hit or miss does not affect in any way the apr, only the damage, if the enemy is not protected, and the fact that with both the c.h. and c.m. the thac0 and ac are ignored, the hit is always successful or always fail, and there is no protection for that.

    has to be told that luck affects the to hit roll but it does not count for determining if the roll give a crit or not, only to compare thac0 and ac. a 20 obtained rolling a 19 and having +1 luck does not give a crit, unless there are conditions for having the 19 being a crit itself, like pips in single weapon or 2h sword.

    this mean that the hla is the only way to be certain to hit, afaik in all the other cases there is always at least 1/20 chance to miss and 1/20 or 1/10 chance to hit, independently from how large is the thac0-ac spread.

    Alonso
  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 491
    edited April 13
    Alonso wrote: »
    Thanks for your answers.

    1. cca?
    2. (Originally I didn't write that question properly). If you score a critical hit with a magical weapon that deals extra elemental damage, like fire damage or electric damage, do you also deal double elemental damage?
    4. How does that work?
    5. How does it work for thievery?

    1) approx
    2) no, extra elemental is same
    3) I don't understand. Do you want to know how do you mod it; or how does it work in game?
    5) afaik whith pickpocket there's always a chance to fail, regardless of your pp score. Open locks and traps aren't subject to critical failures

    And one thing about criticals - you cannot crit if you don't roll to hit. Meaning, any movement-disabled creature (Held, Stunned, Webbed, Sleeping, under Time Stop etc.) cannot be hit by a crit.

    gorgonzolaAerakarAlonso
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,434
    @Aasim
    2. is crit damage calculated as a back stab with 2x multiplier, so also the str damage bonus is not multiplied, but only the physical damage and the damage from weapon enchantment and proficiency points are doubled? i always assumed that it works like that, but i am not sure.
    4. i think that @Alonso want to create threads where some technical aspects of the game are discussed in depth, this is not the first one, the one on luck is a good example. so i assume that he want to know how it work in the IE games, not to have hints on about how to mod the games.

    Alonso
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,848
    Damage (only what is included in the following calculation is doubled by a critical hit):
    pafubfax6nlk.png
    DamageMod: (op130 Bless, op73 Attack Damage Bonus)
    HandBonus: (Offhand-only)
    Melee Bonus: op285 Melee Weapon Damage
    Single-Weapon Style: STYLBONU.2da (value changed to display effect)
    Attack of Opportunity: target is Unarmed or Ranged while attacking with melee
    Berserk: STATE_BERSERK (+2)
    Hated Race: Racial Enemy (+4)
    Strength: STRMOD.2da
    Special Bonus: op179 Damage vs. Type Bonus
    ((4 + 3 + 1 + 4 + 4) * 2(backstab) + 7 + 4 + 2) * 2(critical) = 90

    Priority order:
    1. Auto-Miss
    2. Auto-Hit
    3. Critical Hit
    4. Critical Miss
    5. Normal Hit/Miss

    Saving throws don't have critical rolls, but do have critical scores:
    A value of 20 in a saving throw will automatically fail, unless the save bonus to that specific effect is 20 or more (not possible by default, but modded).

    Grond0gorgonzola
  • Grond0Grond0 Member, Moderator Posts: 4,873
    edited April 13
    Aasim wrote: »
    Alonso wrote: »
    5. How does it work for thievery?

    5) afaik whith pickpocket there's always a chance to fail, regardless of your pp score. Open locks and traps aren't subject to critical failures

    I think stealth is also subject to critical failures.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 12,731
    Note that while critical hits will only double physical damage, that does not apply to "on-hit" effects which also happen to be physical damage. There's a single example in the game: the Impaler spear deals 1d6+3 damage, plus another 10 damage as an on-hit effect. That 1d6+3 damage will be doubled by a critical hit, but the extra 10 damage will not be.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,434
    @kjeron
    can you please translate what you have told in terms that also someone that ignore what op xxx do or what a file .da, if ever is a file, mean?
    probably who use nearinfinity and is into the technical details of how the ie work can understand you, but i think that is possible to explain the same things in terms that every player can understand.

    Alonso
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,848
    op130 Bless - Bless Spell
    op73 Attack Damage Bonus - Legacy of the Master (bracers)
    op179 damage vs type bonus - Cavalier bonus vs dragons/demons
    op285 melee weapon damage bonus - unused other than mods

    gorgonzola
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,247
    if i recall correctly, in the original bg manual it said that if you get a critical miss, you will automatically miss and get a time penalty for your next attack

    years later in ToB i remember using greater whirlwind and i critical missed twice in a row, and i only got 3 more attacks afterwards before my greater whirlwind ended and normally i pump out about 7-8 attacks with greater whirlwind

    so i would think that the time penalty does exist, although i dont know if the EEs have changed that

  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 612
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    1. afaik a critical hit or miss does not affect in any way the apr
    It looks like critical misses delay your next attack. Delaying an attack should reduce your APR, at least for that round. Not sure if that's what you meant, though.
    Aasim wrote: »
    4) I don't understand. Do you want to know how do you mod it; or how does it work in game?
    How it works in the game. In other words, how can you score a critical with a 17 or an 18?
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @Alonso wants to create threads where some technical aspects of the game are discussed in depth, [...] he wants to know how it work in the IE games, not to have hints about how to mod the games.
    Yep, you've summed it up pretty nicely ;)
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    the time penalty does exist, although i dont know if the EEs have changed that
    No, they haven't. From the Adventurer's Guide: "a critical miss imposes a short delay on the character’s next attack as they recover their balance". It just doesn't say how long (or short) it is.

    @kjeron: As @gorgonzola said, we need a translation to the common language of Faerun, common mortals like us don't speak high elfic. It's nice that you have given us the meaning of a few high elfic words, but we still need a full translation to common to be able to understand... ;)

    gorgonzola
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,659
    edited April 13
    1. There is no penalty that I've ever seen.
    2. Always doubled in BG. The extra physical damage on a magic weapon is basically doubled on a crit as well.
    3. Certain weapon styles or certain weapons, such as two-handed style or Herdrin's Short Sword +2 (which gives a +10% chance, which is equal to critting on 18-20).
    4. See above. Modding the weapon styles can also do this.
    5. As already said, saving throws do not have automatic failure unless the creature is forced to save at 20 or higher, which makes it a good idea to get saves as low as possible to become outright immune to certain spells or abilities. Thief skills do have critical failure rolls that Luck can influence (see here).
    6. Equipment that has the 'toggle critical hits' flag on it, like the Cloak of the Gargoyle from SoD.
    7. If a creature can't hit you on a 19, it will crit you on a 20 if you're not immune to criticals. It will be reduced to a normal hit if you are. Corollary to this, if a creature has a crit range bonus, it will always hit on those numbers within the range. So if a creature can crit on 18-20 and rolls within that range, it will be a crit, even if it would normally miss on the 18 or 19. This is what makes Critical Strike so good, as it increases your critical range to 1-20, so you can't ever miss, even on a nat1.

    Post edited by Flashburn on
    semiticgodgorgonzolaGrond0
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,848
    Alonso wrote: »
    It looks like critical misses delay your next attack. Delaying an attack should reduce your APR, at least for that round. Not sure if that's what you meant, though.
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    the time penalty does exist, although i dont know if the EEs have changed that
    Alonso wrote: »
    No, they haven't. From the Adventurer's Guide: "a critical miss imposes a short delay on the character’s next attack as they recover their balance". It just doesn't say how long (or short) it is.
    If there is a delay, it's to weapon speed, not APR:
    gsovk0t8el1a.png
    Alonso wrote: »
    @kjeron: As @gorgonzola said, we need a translation to the common language of Faerun, common mortals like us don't speak high elfic.
    Which of those do you need explained better?

    sarevok57
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 612
    Flashburn wrote: »
    Thief skills do have critical failure rolls that Luck can influence (see here).
    Actually, that post is what prompted me to create this thread in the first place, because I don't know how critical misses work with thieving abilities. But that post doesn't explain it. And I have never heard anybody else talk about critical misses with thieving abilities.
    kjeron wrote: »
    Which of those do you need explained better?
    The one where you talk about what damage is doubled with critical hits.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 12,731
    All physical damage is doubled by critical hits except for "on-hit effects," like the extra +10 piercing damage from the Impaler, and maybe some target-dependent bonus damage like the Equalizer does to critters of certain alignments (though that might just be for pre-EE BG; EE might allow that damage to multiply). So, critical hits multiply only physical damage, and aside from a few narrow exceptions, all physical damage.

    So, if you get +2 to damage from a Skald song, that gets multiplied. If you get +2 from proficiencies, that gets multiplied. If the weapon is +2, that gets multiplied. If you're wearing the Legacy of the Masters, that +2 damage gets multiplied. If you're under the effects of Emotion: Hope and its +2 damage, that gets multiplied. If you have 18 flat Strength, that +2 damage gets multiplied. But if your weapon does any elemental damage, that does not get multiplied.

    gorgonzola
  • Grond0Grond0 Member, Moderator Posts: 4,873
    edited April 14
    Alonso wrote: »
    Flashburn wrote: »
    Thief skills do have critical failure rolls that Luck can influence (see here).
    Actually, that post is what prompted me to create this thread in the first place, because I don't know how critical misses work with thieving abilities. But that post doesn't explain it. And I have never heard anybody else talk about critical misses with thieving abilities.

    Your thread on thieving skills covers how those work. The critical misses bit relates to pickpocket and stealth attempts. Even if there is apparently 100% chance of success from the formula, there is still a 1% chance of a critical failure. However, as explained in your thread on luck, that chance of critical failure is itself subject to luck - if you have 1 point of luck that reduces the chance of critical failure by 1% and hence means no chance of failure.

    gorgonzola
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 612
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Criticals are not even mentioned in that thread... :/
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Even if there is apparently 100% chance of success from the formula
    What formula?

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 12,731
    "Critical" just isn't the word used for that 1% chance. We say "critical failure" or "critical success" for attack rolls because there's always a 5% chance of success and a 5% chance of failure, and in IWD2, we use the same terminology for saving throws because they have that same 5%/5% divide.

    There's apparently a 1% chance of failure for stealth and pickpocketing regardless of score, but we don't say "critical failure" I guess because we normally use that for 5% chances on 1d20 rolls instead of 1% chances on 1d100 rolls.

    Alonsogorgonzola
  • Grond0Grond0 Member, Moderator Posts: 4,873
    @semiticgod critical failure may not be common terminology (I think because the methodology is not generally understood in any case), but I think it is accurate. I don't think the 'critical' relates to the % chance specifically, but whether a roll departs from the standard methodology. For something like stealth there's a chance of failure irrespective of how good your stealth is (unless luck is operating), which is the same mechanism as the critical hit/miss on attacks.

    @Alonso the formulae in the link I gave, e.g. the formula for stealth is
    Stealth: (HiS + MS) * Environment Multiplier / 2 + (1/100 MOD luck) vs. 100

    gorgonzolaAlonso
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,848
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Stealth: (HiS + MS) * Environment Multiplier / 2 + (1d100 MOD luck) vs. 100
    Correcting my typo (1/100 -> 1d100).

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